| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Vangelor |
Posted - 30 Jun 2005 : 14:09:31
Looking for some feedback from other DMs who use the setting.
How well known are the famous folk of the Realms? Are the Chosen of Mystra commonly known as such, or is their status secret? Are the Seven Sisters apt to be the subject of song (I also play in the Realms, and my Bard wants to build a song-cycle around the Seven, of whom he has so far managed to meet two face-to-face), or is this more the realm of fantastic tales and speculation. Is Khelben's quarrel with the Harpers well known? And so on.
I appreciate any and all thoughts. Thanks! |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Forge |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 19:24:51
Wow, once again I have begun a debate with someone who agrees with me.  |
| Kuje |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 19:18:47
quote:
Originally posted by Forge
They as individuals may have been involved, but I've never seen where one of them steps forward and claims credit as, or on behalf of their organization. There may be those in their close circle of peers who are aware vaguely or implicitly of their affiliations, but the general public isn't.
And so I repeat myself, I never said that the general public knows these things and I've said repeatedly that they wouldn't! I'd appreciate if you would stop putting words into my mouth that I never said, thanks. |
| Forge |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 19:17:07
They as individuals may have been involved, but I've never seen where one of them steps forward and claims credit as, or on behalf of their organization. There may be those in their close circle of peers who are aware vaguely or implicitly of their affiliations, but the general public isn't. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 18:50:19
quote:
Originally posted by Forge
Well you were responding to the request for names of those who were officially involved in saving the Realms. My point is that in most every case I've read of, there are no members of these secretive organizations "Officially" involved.
You lost me..... Yes Mirt and Durnan and Khelben and others have been officially involved in many events to "save" the Realms. |
| Forge |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 18:44:19
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Forge
Correct, but just because it's in a novel we read doesn't mean it's public knowledge. The Lords of Waterdeep are a lot more subtle than that, usually using funds and agents to accomplish their ends.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Okay your point being? I've been saying, repeatedly I might add, that these types of things are NOT public knowledge.
Well you were responding to the request for names of those who were officially involved in saving the Realms. My point is that in most every case I've read of, there are no members of these secretive organizations "Officially" involved. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 18:40:31
quote:
Originally posted by Forge
Correct, but just because it's in a novel we read doesn't mean it's public knowledge. The Lords of Waterdeep are a lot more subtle than that, usually using funds and agents to accomplish their ends.
Okay your point being? I've been saying, repeatedly I might add, that these types of things are NOT public knowledge. |
| Forge |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 16:48:51
quote:
Many of the Lords of Waterdeep do go off and "save" the Realms and especially Waterdeep. I choose Mirt and Durnan mostly because they are the two that have the most info written. Mirt's been in Skullport, he helped Shandril when she was being hunted for spellfire, he's killed people to save Waterdeep, etc. Durnan has joined him sometimes.
Correct, but just because it's in a novel we read doesn't mean it's public knowledge. The Lords of Waterdeep are a lot more subtle than that, usually using funds and agents to accomplish their ends.
Something else folks, in the years and tales that have come and gone, there is a good likelyhood that there is just as much misinformation out there "OH! Shandril shot silver fire, she's a Chosen of Mystra!" ... that kind of thing. So there are going to be a lot of takes on who is what and what is who. For all anyone outside of certain VERY exclusive circles know, spellfire and silver fire, and all the other telltales of the Chosen and the Harpers etc... are all interwoven or identical, or purely fiction.
For that matter, I'm sure there have been self-styled Chosen or Favored, or faux-Harpers running around as well. Granted they wouldn't make it far past the gates, but it could happen. Nothing to cloud the issue like bad information. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 16:39:39
quote:
Originally posted by Shadovarwell, pardon me, are there anymore lords besides the mentioned Lords of Waterdeep officially involved in the business of saving the Realms?
Many of the Lords of Waterdeep do go off and "save" the Realms and especially Waterdeep. I picked Mirt and Durnan mostly because they are the two that have the most info written. Mirt's been in Skullport, he helped Shandril when she was being hunted for spellfire, he's killed people to save Waterdeep, etc. Durnan has joined him sometimes. |
| Beowulf |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 15:51:08
quote:
Originally posted by Forge
[quote]However the flip side is that for that same reason, literature wouldn't be widespread and widely read despite the literacy rate.
Also, being literate or having something written down, and even having something written down and widely circulated and read, is hardly an assurence of the truth of what is written.
I've got two words ...
National Enquirer.
Nuff said. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 14:49:49
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Kuje, Sage, both of you have named some very good points.
Kuje pretty much said what I would have stated in reply to that statement. So I won't bother adding anything to it.
quote:
Those novels are not a good example of anything. The author may have had a character act like the Chosen were celebrities, but he also had many established characters that acted like utter morons. We know from established Realmslore what these characters are like -- Denning's depiction of them did not draw from established Realmslore.
And Wooly's opinion on the novels matches my own, so I won't add anything here either.
What I will say though, is that because of Denning's style - in this instance, the way he handled the Chosen and the entire 'Return of the Shade' event - I'm keeping the basic plot out of my Realms campaign for as long as I am able. I will only make reference to the particulars of the RSE when I've been able to satisfyingly alter certain aspects and change some of its overall results.
As such, the Chosen will conform more to how we already know them to be, and the impact of the RSE will be severely lessened.
|
| Forge |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 13:49:49
quote:
So your changing your stance since you said FR doesn't have printing presses. I see. :)
Nope, not changing anything. The advent of the printing press and moveable type was tremendous in our world, but then we had things they didn't and at that point we were verging upon technical marvels they didn't have previously. For reasons too numerous to mention, the FR are not at that point in development.
However the flip side is that for that same reason, literature wouldn't be widespread and widely read despite the literacy rate.
... and yes Vangelor, very nicely done job of reading between the lines and absorbing the full "middle of the road" opinions. |
| Chosen of Moradin |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 12:59:20
quote:
Alright - thank you for all the views, and do feel free to continue the discussion. It is informative. The gist that I have gathered is that:
The Seven Sisters are known of, vaguely, as "Powerful Enchantresses Who Help the Downtrodden", and might well be mentioned in song, but just like I can't name the original line-up of Charlie's Angels, though I remember quite well they were crime-fighting spy chicks who used martial arts and didn't use guns, a person may remember Storm is one, or the Witch-Queen of Aglarond, but are far less likely to know details of the less-high-profile sisters, like the ghost (whose name escapes me!) or Qilué.
But, say, at someplace learned, like the House of the Harp at Silverymoon (formerly Focluchan College)there might be any number of people who - being academics - would know the Seven Sisters, their names and general distinguishing characteristics, as someone IRL might be able to tell you the names and patronages of the Nine Muses (which off the top of my head, I can't).
Similarly, they may or may not be known to be Chosen of Mystra, and no one really knows what exactly being Chosen means, except that it involves phenomenal magical prowess.
The farmer or innkeeper or washerwoman is unlikely to know much at all, if anything, beyond "Oh, yes, I heard a song about them once! Good song! How did it go again?" Whereas an aristocrat - who might have to negotiate trade agreements with the Silver Marches, or know whose hand to kiss in Shadowdale, might know a good deal more, but the details (where available) are the province of scholars - if they are known at all: "Yes, The Simbul is one of the Seven, and she was in Aglarond by the Year of Sundered Buckles, because it is mentioned in the Volgarth Cycle, but we don't really know where she was before then, at least not after the Thornwood Imbroglio, where, of course, she is said to have done such and such..."
As an aside, the debating of Realmslore here really is taking on a rather comical likeness to what Realms scholarship is like, down to arguments over what is a credible source!
So - facts are few, rumor is rife (amongst those who care) and apt to be highly colored, and bards can be expected to sing the Seven, but need not worry too much if they need to make things up - after all, what else is poetic license for?
Vangelor, I think that you hit the target exactly with this! 
That is my opinion and my approach of the Chosen and his fame.
Chosen of Moradin |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 11:33:01
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Lol. Well, the Lords of Waterdeep don't exactly go around saving the Realms from liches and Zhentarim.
But anyways, you are correct. It's just that RotA has "corrupted" me. Lol. Once again, I remember reading in The Siege when Galaeron and the elves of Evereska finds out Khelben was coming to help them with the Waterdeep army. Galaeron was reacting like a celebrity or movie star sort of thing was dropping by...
Those novels are not a good example of anything. The author may have had a character act like the Chosen were celebrities, but he also had many established characters that acted like utter morons. We know from established Realmslore what these characters are like -- Denning's depiction of them did not draw from established Realmslore. |
| Vangelor |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 11:27:41
Alright - thank you for all the views, and do feel free to continue the discussion. It is informative. The gist that I have gathered is that:
The Seven Sisters are known of, vaguely, as "Powerful Enchantresses Who Help the Downtrodden", and might well be mentioned in song, but just like I can't name the original line-up of Charlie's Angels, though I remember quite well they were crime-fighting spy chicks who used martial arts and didn't use guns, a person may remember Storm is one, or the Witch-Queen of Aglarond, but are far less likely to know details of the less-high-profile sisters, like the ghost (whose name escapes me!) or Qilué.
But, say, at someplace learned, like the House of the Harp at Silverymoon (formerly Focluchan College)there might be any number of people who - being academics - would know the Seven Sisters, their names and general distinguishing characteristics, as someone IRL might be able to tell you the names and patronages of the Nine Muses (which off the top of my head, I can't).
Similarly, they may or may not be known to be Chosen of Mystra, and no one really knows what exactly being Chosen means, except that it involves phenomenal magical prowess.
The farmer or innkeeper or washerwoman is unlikely to know much at all, if anything, beyond "Oh, yes, I heard a song about them once! Good song! How did it go again?" Whereas an aristocrat - who might have to negotiate trade agreements with the Silver Marches, or know whose hand to kiss in Shadowdale, might know a good deal more, but the details (where available) are the province of scholars - if they are known at all: "Yes, The Simbul is one of the Seven, and she was in Aglarond by the Year of Sundered Buckles, because it is mentioned in the Volgarth Cycle, but we don't really know where she was before then, at least not after the Thornwood Imbroglio, where, of course, she is said to have done such and such..."
As an aside, the debating of Realmslore here really is taking on a rather comical likeness to what Realms scholarship is like, down to arguments over what is a credible source!
So - facts are few, rumor is rife (amongst those who care) and apt to be highly colored, and bards can be expected to sing the Seven, but need not worry too much if they need to make things up - after all, what else is poetic license for? |
| Shadovar |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 09:28:35
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Lol. Well, the Lords of Waterdeep don't exactly go around saving the Realms from liches and Zhentarim.
Mirt and Durnan and Khelben (when he was a Lord) and one or two others of the Lords do. :)
well, pardon me, are there anymore lords besides the mentioned Lords of Waterdeep officially involved in the business of saving the Realms? |
| Kuje |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 08:35:19
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Lol. Well, the Lords of Waterdeep don't exactly go around saving the Realms from liches and Zhentarim.
Mirt and Durnan and Khelben (when he was a Lord) and one or two others of the Lords do. :) |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 07:48:36
Lol. Well, the Lords of Waterdeep don't exactly go around saving the Realms from liches and Zhentarim.
But anyways, you are correct. It's just that RotA has "corrupted" me. Lol. Once again, I remember reading in The Siege when Galaeron and the elves of Evereska finds out Khelben was coming to help them with the Waterdeep army. Galaeron was reacting like a celebrity or movie star sort of thing was dropping by... |
| Kuje |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 07:44:14
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Kuje, Sage, both of you have named some very good points. I would've agreed with you guys if I haven't read the Return of the Archwizards series. It seems that everyone knew about the Chosens of Mystra. In fact, I remember reading in The Sorcerer where Galaeron screams at Khelben and the Seven Sisters something like, "You guys are Chosens! Why don't you go save them from the dragons?!"
When I read that, I was just like "Wow..." This kind of contradicts how Mystra's Chosens have all been trying to be very private with their lives.
As I said, this is the "problem" with some novels. :) They take liberties. Most don't even know who the Lords of Waterdeep are, so why should the Chosen be that known. |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 07:30:37
Kuje, Sage, both of you have named some very good points. I would've agreed with you guys if I haven't read the Return of the Archwizards series. It seems that everyone knew about the Chosens of Mystra. In fact, I remember reading in The Sorcerer where Galaeron screams at Khelben and the Seven Sisters something like, "You guys are Chosens! Why don't you go save them from the dragons?!"
When I read that, I was just like "Wow..." This kind of contradicts how Mystra's Chosens have all been trying to be very private with their lives. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 03:49:55
I would have to say that in some regions the term Chosen of Mystra is probably known, and that Elminster, Khelbun, and the Seven Sisters are likely associated with the term, but I would also say that many commoners, if they have heard the term, may not think that it is a literal thing, i.e. they are the chosen of Mystra becuase they are powerful wizards that have survived a lot. And most folk in Waterdeep don't even know that the Khelbun that they see is actually THE Khelbun and not Khelbun the younger.
I would also say that in some circles the term Seven Sisters is known, but that most people don't know exactly who they are. There may be rumors about the Simbul, Alustriel, and possibly Storm, but in general even if someone has heard the term they may not have any idea who all of them may be. Heck, none of us knew for a long time even after the term started popping up in Realmslore.
Finally, I don't know how well anyone would recognize them. Khelbun, Alustriel, and the Simbul might be pretty well known in their respective areas, and obviously the folk of Shadowdale know Elminster, but I would point out that Elminster wandering around in Waterdeep or Cormyr would likely just look like another old wizard. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 03:14:56
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Kuje, the status of Chosen of Mystra are commonly known for Khelben, Elminster and the Seven Sisters as it has been wide-spread by the Churches of Mysteries. It is the most obviously shown in the Elminster series, where most people know about Elminster (they may not know his face, but surely his name and some common knowledge).
Also, I suspect that someone like Fzoul would have his face more recognized than the Chosens of Mystra. I say this because in Prince of Lies, it was said that Lord Chess (when he was the ruler of Zhentil Keep), had his face on all the products that go through his city so everyone would know his face. I think that the heroes we often read about in the novels would not be as well known as the politicians or rulers in a city or nation.
I still disagree. Thier names and appearance might be known but thier status as a Chosen will not, except, as I said, among some leaders. However leaders are rarer then the common people that make up the Realms, as I said above.
And I would have to support this view as well.
Being Chosen isn't what most in the Realms would consider 'public knowledge'. After all, consider Elminster's position during the early stages of the Time of Troubles -- he had lost much of his Chosen abilities. Those that knew of his status as Chosen immediately seized upon the opportunity to destroy him.
I'm not saying that Chosen go out of their way to ensure that their nature as Mystra's Chosen remains secret, but then they really don't want that knowledge falling into the hands of those who would wish them ill.
|
| Kuje |
Posted - 30 Jun 2005 : 23:10:36
quote:
Originally posted by Forge
Unless they are moveable type presses they are not going to be much good for any true pressruns, with the exception of things like fliers, and mass-read things like annuals, Almanacs, etc... typically in a pre-industrial society there is little spare time or coin for relative frivolities like books and only the rich have time to read leisurly anyways.
So your changing your stance since you said FR doesn't have printing presses. I see. :) |
| Forge |
Posted - 30 Jun 2005 : 22:56:58
Unless they are moveable type presses they are not going to be much good for any true pressruns, with the exception of things like fliers, and mass-read things like annuals, Almanacs, etc... typically in a pre-industrial society there is little spare time or coin for relative frivolities like books and only the rich have time to read leisurly anyways. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 30 Jun 2005 : 22:50:28
quote:
Originally posted by Forge
While I agree that the literacy percentages are higher, I would say that the impacts of this would be minimal. There are no such things as printing presses or any other real means of mass-production of literature or fiction. Most information is disseminated by traveling minstrels, and those are notoriously unreliable and would only have a handful of new tales and songs. Most of the "period" entertainment was traditional songs and stories, stuff the commoners grew up with and around.
Waterdeep has printing presses BTW. :) |
| Kuje |
Posted - 30 Jun 2005 : 22:49:28
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Kuje, the status of Chosen of Mystra are commonly known for Khelben, Elminster and the Seven Sisters as it has been wide-spread by the Churches of Mysteries. It is the most obviously shown in the Elminster series, where most people know about Elminster (they may not know his face, but surely his name and some common knowledge).
Also, I suspect that someone like Fzoul would have his face more recognized than the Chosens of Mystra. I say this because in Prince of Lies, it was said that Lord Chess (when he was the ruler of Zhentil Keep), had his face on all the products that go through his city so everyone would know his face. I think that the heroes we often read about in the novels would not be as well known as the politicians or rulers in a city or nation.
I still disagree. Thier names and appearance might be known but thier status as a Chosen will not, except, as I said, among some leaders. However leaders are rarer then the common people that make up the Realms, as I said above. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 30 Jun 2005 : 21:54:30
quote:
Originally posted by Forge
While I agree that the literacy percentages are higher, I would say that the impacts of this would be minimal. There are no such things as printing presses or any other real means of mass-production of literature or fiction. Most information is disseminated by traveling minstrels, and those are notoriously unreliable and would only have a handful of new tales and songs. Most of the "period" entertainment was traditional songs and stories, stuff the commoners grew up with and around.
Yes but RSE certainly have involved Chosen and they have been living 100s of years. I do agree not all the stories about them would be true, though I suspect Harpers would seek to strive for truth that furtered their goals. |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 30 Jun 2005 : 21:27:44
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Vangelor, most of the famous folk in the Realms are quite well-known. The Chosens of Mystra are commonly known (no thanks to Troy Denning, who keeps raising the fact every 3 sentences in his freakin' books), as most people would recognize Elminster's signature pipe and hat or Khelben's blackstaff.
I disagree in part, but this is the problem between novels and sourcebooks. The status of the Chosen WOULD NOT be commonly known. Some leaders, etc, would know that the Chosen are different but most would not.
Storm would be known as a famous bard that lives in Shadowdale but she would not be known as a Chosen. Etc.
Kuje, the status of Chosen of Mystra are commonly known for Khelben, Elminster and the Seven Sisters as it has been wide-spread by the Churches of Mysteries. It is the most obviously shown in the Elminster series, where most people know about Elminster (they may not know his face, but surely his name and some common knowledge).
Also, I suspect that someone like Fzoul would have his face more recognized than the Chosens of Mystra. I say this because in Prince of Lies, it was said that Lord Chess (when he was the ruler of Zhentil Keep), had his face on all the products that go through his city so everyone would know his face. I think that the heroes we often read about in the novels would not be as well known as the politicians or rulers in a city or nation. |
| Forge |
Posted - 30 Jun 2005 : 21:21:34
While I agree that the literacy percentages are higher, I would say that the impacts of this would be minimal. There are no such things as printing presses or any other real means of mass-production of literature or fiction. Most information is disseminated by traveling minstrels, and those are notoriously unreliable and would only have a handful of new tales and songs. Most of the "period" entertainment was traditional songs and stories, stuff the commoners grew up with and around. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 30 Jun 2005 : 20:33:06
I can see stories, songs and legends known though out the Realms. Some thing like legends of King Auther. The Seven or other Chosen would likely be known of. However most would not recognise a Chosen if they met face to face, because of the embellishments added on in the telling.
King Auther for example is reported to have lived over a 100 year period, might have been married twice and so on. Lacelot was a French invention.
So Yes there should be legends, songs, poems and prehaps even some true history concerning NPCs that were involved in RSE. There likely will also be many stories of things that Chosen did not do. Some communities might credit a major NPC for aiding (years ago) the defense of the locak community. There even might be landmarks names after some of the heros of old, with a claim they actually were there.
A sort of "George Washington slept here" that was common in regions of the USA that it would appear that all he did was sleep and at times might have slept at the same time in two different colonies.
FR also has a higher litericy rate then a comparible medieval time period. So information and disinformation could be more widely distributed. |
| Forge |
Posted - 30 Jun 2005 : 19:04:08
This may be true, but also remember, most magical items, especially unique ones, are not commonly known even amongst the adventuring communities. Also, I think it's very much in the flavor of the Realms to not be intrinsically aware of these folks until much higher levels when they become closer to being peers. |
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