| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Knight of the Gate |
Posted - 10 May 2009 : 09:18:49
Why aren't they listed amongst the Creator Races? As I understand it, the Titans had their realm (Ostoria)where the present-day Sea of Fallen Stars sits- they went to war with the Batrachi, and were winning out, despite the Batrachi's tendency to summon any/every horror they could lay hands (tentacles) on. The B. did the thing w/ the progenitor of Dragonkind (which they found on another plane) and the Ur-Dragon caused the Starfall, which 86'd the Titans, and created the Sea of Fallen Stars.
Now, if the Titans were a race native to the Realms (as they were the children of Annam and Othea), who birthed/created all of giantkind, why aren't they on the list of Creator Races? And if the dragons were NOT from the Realms, and really only spawned more dragons, then how ARE they a Creator Race?
Discuss. |
| 23 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| coach |
Posted - 18 Aug 2010 : 04:18:57
Powers and Pantheons is another reference with answers:
Ulutiu created the Glacier of Ulutiu that had magical runes that described his relationship with Othea and his battles with Annam and the fact that he created this "thousands of years ago"
it also mentions Lanaxis and the current Great Glacier/Vaasa/Damara/narfell region as being the area of Ulutiu influence |
| coach |
Posted - 18 Aug 2010 : 03:33:12
and another thing i'd add to even muddy the water even more...
could it be possible that when the necklace played out to the extent of its magic after 75 years, that the Glacier was already so big that it changed the weather patterns and thus even grew further for awhile
we may need to start a new thread though about the timeline and facts of the Glacier's Growth/Retreat... |
| coach |
Posted - 18 Aug 2010 : 03:28:35
Markus quote: Plus you have Hartkiller appearing just several weeks after the sons of Annam were murdered by Lanaxis, and he allied with HUMANS and formed Hartsvale. Another clear indicator that this happened much more recently then supposed, else who were these humans he allied with?
when Ray Winninger said Hartkiller emerged from Othea's womb "several weeks" after Voninheim was swallowed by the Great Glacier I have found a way to reconcile that...
if "several" could be "tens of thousands" I think the math will still work heheh
seriously, that is just flat wrong of Winninger because in the SAME PARAGRAPH he talked about Hartkiller parlaying with the tribes that had descended from each of these brothers who were just poisoned "several weeks" ago
also, Markus mentioned the temple that fell only 400 years ago, this temple had a frieze that depicted Annam's revenge on Ulutiu ... and this frieze was carved by "one of the earliest stone giants" ... so there goes the millenia long love affair if one of the earliest stone giants (second son of the first stone giant) carved a frieze of Annam reacting to it
and actually as i re-read that, it doesn't necessarily say that the temple was occupied when it was destroyed, so maybe that is it
i think the only answer is to change "weeks" to "centuries" in Winninger's blurb about Hartkiller, can't retcon/shoehorn/fit every error in sometimes you just gotta take out the whiteout and fix it that way
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| coach |
Posted - 18 Aug 2010 : 02:59:33
Markus quoted: Now how about this - it wasn't a necklace at all! Ulutiu had flippers (yes, thats in that short story I told you about - I must find that), so he had no fingers. If he had a magical ring, he would have had to wear it on a chain.
he was actually half Giant Otter/ half human so fingers could have been possible: Realms of Infamy pgs 201,202,210 |
| coach |
Posted - 17 Aug 2010 : 20:04:21
quote:
Originally posted by creyzi4zb12
I think there was a short story on this one in FR novels. I think it was one of the novels Realms of XXX...which states about the origin of the titans.
Realms of Infamy
"Twilight"
by Troy Denning |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 17 Aug 2010 : 01:22:17
It's always an interesting exercise to base major FR projects on lore-light FR novelists and lore-light FR game designers, isn't it? The lore-vacuum surrounding the particular sources that are being relied on here is palpable.
BTW, the elves of Lethyr reference was my own creation and needs to be clarified in a couple of ways. Firstly, it was a localised effect and intended to explain the habitation of large groups of creatures (humans, hobgoblins et. al.) north of the forest areas. Secondly, it was intended to deal with some fan comments and concerns many years ago on the WotC Boards regarding the ecological impossibility of large creature groups not "built" to live in cold temperatures, having their habitat so close to a huge glacier. The answer is - as it most often always is - magic.
-- George Krashos
|
| creyzi4zb12 |
Posted - 16 Aug 2010 : 19:54:15
I think there was a short story on this one in FR novels. I think it was one of the novels Realms of XXX...which states about the origin of the titans. |
| coach |
Posted - 16 Aug 2010 : 19:51:59
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Edit: There is also a mention of a Titan leveling 'Ranauroch', which was either a city or a kingdom, presumably human. Netherease? The pre-Illuskan Pozi people?
I've always thought it was probably a Ray Winninger-ism. I don't remember any further details about Ranauroch anywhere else in official Realmslore.
Having said that, I've established a few tidbits of historical info for the "citadel-kingdom" [as I've deemed it], in my campaign though.
it simply has too much of a similarity with the word Anauroch for those two not to be related somehow |
| coach |
Posted - 16 Aug 2010 : 19:49:44
Quote by Markus "In fact, the entire sordid affair - Annam, Ulutiu, Othea, the giant kin, Lanaxis and his brothers - were all covered. Basically the same story as that in Giantcraft, but there may be a few details in there we can use."
again I am at work so this is from memory but I think it is Troy Denning's "Twilight" short story from realms of Infamy
(really need to put my Cold Lands stuff on a flash drive so i can double check all this stuff LOL) |
| coach |
Posted - 16 Aug 2010 : 19:06:13
ok, i'll help with some answers here but they will be sporadic as I am at work:
Quote by Markus "Dalor, did you locate that article I pointed you to in some thread - I believe it pertained to portals, but there were Ice demons (Celugon?{sp?}) and a bunch of other neat 'northern history' in there, including some details about a fallen, northern empire (most of which is now under the ice).
Edit: Found it! It was called Jhothūn, and was a giant city!
Actually that was me ((*reaches around to pat own back*)) and actually the giant city under the Great Glacier was Gharreil (and it is still under the Great Glacier)
Jhotun was in the Endless Ice Sea
and the Gelugon (named Tosvin) was/is one of Iyraclea's Icy Claws (another reference to the current Great Glacier |
| Knight of the Gate |
Posted - 15 Aug 2010 : 06:02:28
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm not saying thats what it was, just proposing an interesting scenario to tie all of this to other Realmslore. I never read the novel with that magical device (Harpers! Ugh!), so I know not its history.
I'd recommend it, anyway. It's one of my fave Realms novels... And the main character considers himself a former Harper, if it helps.
I second this: That was a heckuva book, and really brings Chult to life. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 15 Aug 2010 : 05:11:22
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Edit: There is also a mention of a Titan leveling 'Ranauroch', which was either a city or a kingdom, presumably human. Netherease? The pre-Illuskan Pozi people?
I've always thought it was probably a Ray Winninger-ism. I don't remember any further details about Ranauroch anywhere else in official Realmslore.
Having said that, I've established a few tidbits of historical info for the "citadel-kingdom" [as I've deemed it], in my campaign though. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 15 Aug 2010 : 05:04:37
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm not saying thats what it was, just proposing an interesting scenario to tie all of this to other Realmslore. I never read the novel with that magical device (Harpers! Ugh!), so I know not its history.
I'd recommend it, anyway. It's one of my fave Realms novels... And the main character considers himself a former Harper, if it helps. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 15 Aug 2010 : 00:34:13
Thats actually not bad (except for the part where a Titan kills someone before he even exists). 
I just got done reasoning that the time between the war (at the end of which Ulutiu 'got with' Othea) and the time when Annam finally caught-on that Othea was a... bad person... had to have been many, MANY centuries, and apparently someone else followed that same line of reasoning.
It also covers the fact that Ulutiu should have been uncovered when the central portion of the Glacier melted (assuming the original glacier incorporated everything from the Great Glacier to the Reghed Glacier near Ten Towns) - if he wasn't there at all to begin with, only his necklace would have been uncovered, which could be why the Glacier(s) began to melt on their own after whatever 'event' befell the region (be it a tearfall or a massive volcanic eruption, etc).
Some major climactic shift uncovers the necklace, which deactivates the magic, which in turns causes the gradual and natural melting of the Glacier(s).
Now how about this - it wasn't a necklace at all! Ulutiu had flippers (yes, thats in that short story I told you about - I must find that), so he had no fingers. If he had a magical ring, he would have had to wear it on a chain.
You know... like the Ring of Winter. 
I'm not saying thats what it was, just proposing an interesting scenario to tie all of this to other Realmslore. I never read the novel with that magical device (Harpers! Ugh!), so I know not its history.
I will re-read that story - IIRC there was something about the necklace in there as well. In fact, the entire sordid affair - Annam, Ulutiu, Othea, the giant kin, Lanaxis and his brothers - were all covered. Basically the same story as that in Giantcraft, but there may be a few details in there we can use. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 23:26:28
I'm about to pretty much split my head open:
c. -30,000 Ostoria Founded
c. -26,000 to c. -25,000 Thousand Year War
c. -25,500 Ulutiu gets with Othea
NOW -2,550 Ulutiu "exiles himself" to the Astral Plane. His ice necklace sinks, creating the Great Glacier
- 2,465 The Elves of Lethyr use High Magic to stop the spread of the Great Glacier southward and to regulate temperatures, thereby preserving their forest home and surrounding lands.
|
| Markustay |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 19:32:57
Biting my tongue....
Anyway, looking through Giantcraft last night I found yet another reference to Dwarves 'witnessing' ancient Giantish history - I'm really leaning towards them being around for a lot longer then previously thought.
It also mentions the Elves - so the Elves must have experienced the Giant/Dragon war as well.
I really wish they had not included any new entries about the Giants in the GHotR - it makes it that much harder to repair things. I get the idea, looking over all the stuff about the Giants, that Ostoria was around a LOT longer then any one realizes, and it only fell completely in recent history. Think about it - the Glacier was spreading, which sounds to me like something that happened post-Netheril, and I have a factoid from Giantcraft that talks about an Ostorian temple that fell a mere 400 years ago!
It would be so much easier if dates hadn't already been assigned to Ulutiu and Ostoria - I personally think a tiny remnant of the Giant Kingdom was still around until only a few centuries ago. The Ulutiu stuff is still workable - what are centuries to immortals? (which Annam's children were) It also states that Othea's affair with Ulutiu began right before the Giant/Dragon war came to an end, which means that whole story-line could have gone on for millenia before Annam caught-on. If anything, the source quite clearly states that most of that - the begetting of all the Giant-kin races - happened AFTER the war.
Plus you have Hartkiller appearing just several weeks after the sons of Annam were murdered by Lanaxis, and he allied with HUMANS and formed Hartsvale. Another clear indicator that this happened much more recently then supposed, else who were these humans he allied with?
According to the GHotR, THEY WERE NETHEREASE!!!
Ergo, I humbly submit to you all that a great deal of giantish history happened very recently, and NOT during the ancient war they had with the dragons.
Dalor, did you locate that article I pointed you to in some thread - I believe it pertained to portals, but there were Ice demons (Celugon?{sp?}) and a bunch of other neat 'northern history' in there, including some details about a fallen, northern empire (most of which is now under the ice).
Edit: Found it! It was called Jhothūn, and was a giant city!
Also came across this line in Giantcraft - quote:
"By the time the war against dragonkind concluded, Ostoria had shrunk to only a shadow of its former self. On the day the truce was declared, the nation of giants occupied only the northernmost edge of Faerūn - the areas known as the Savage North and the Cold Lands."
So there you go - the Savage North is all the area above the Western Heartlands, and the Cold Lands is the region above the Eastern Heartlands. That fixes some of our problem - obviously Ostorio encompassed quite a bit of Faerūn at one point, and only its northern edge remained intact after the war - and everything we need to include - Hartsvale to the Great Glacier - is included in that geographic space.
Now for another conundrum - according to Giantcraft, Voninhelm was covered in ice eventually, but that was where Lanaxis was cursed to stay (in both novel and source). Harstvale is not covered by the glacier, nor was Twilight Vale IIRC. Once again we are faced with the problem of the Glacier growing to its full potential (which took 75 years, according to source), and then receding at some point.
We also know canonically that the northern ice has been receding in the past few centuries, so that ties in nicely. There is a problematic short story wherein a Mage of Netheril is in Vassa, which should have been still under the glacier at that time. However, it seems quite a bit 'swampier' then modern Vassa, so it could have been set during the time when much of Vassa still lay covered (but was melting, hence all the wetness).
I'm thinking the 'event' that formed the Moonsea may have been responsible for the quick warming of that region, and why the Glacier (that Ulutiu lay under) was split in two. Ergo, The Ride, Thar, the frozen Forest, ect... would have all been within the Glaciated area about a thousand years ago.
And then we run into the Thar Ogres....
Perhaps set the tear-fall that created the moonsea back a bit further, during the time of netheril. there is an errant entry in The Great Glacier that makes mention of a much more recent strike, but it is really too recent to have created the Moonsea.
Hmmm... could be two strikes... the more recent one could have been further north and melted that area between the Great Mount of Ghaethlunter and the Sunrise(n) Mountains. Chain reaction thing, with two events causing meltings and re-freezings...
So very complicated trying to get it all to work. 
Edit: There is also a mention of a Titan leveling 'Ranauroch', which was either a city or a kingdom, presumably human. Netherease? The pre-Illuskan Pozi people? As for the Titans leaving Toril, I have to agree with KotG's theory - there were two types. There is a Titan mentioned in the Pool of Twilight novel, but since he is already dead when the novel takes place (and becomes an amalgam zombie) he could have been from much further back in time. |
| Quale |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 14:27:54
I think they are like humans plus alchemy, so they're a Creator Race. |
| Knight of the Gate |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 09:05:39
I can retcon that one nicely: The Titan who slew the Batrachi leader was an 'Elder Titan' (see the ELH), whereas the titan which Annam got upon Othea was the first native-born Torillian Titan.
Which actually makes sense: The MM titan is a being of near-deific proportion, whereas the Elder Titan from the ELH is really (in many ways) superior to any demipower. So the Elder Titans were the troops/heralds/etc. of the gods of the giant pantheon, whereas the MM- style titans were the offspring of the giantish powers, and thus not as mighty as their forebears. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 05:39:10
Well, I have a nice twist:
In circa -31,500 the leader of the Batrachi is slain by the Titan Omo
In circa -30,000 the giant god Annam besets Othea with her first Titan born.
Figure that one out!
This tells me that Titans existed in Faerun before Annam mated with Othea...and giants have simply "laid claim" to Titans as part of their people when they are not. |
| Knight of the Gate |
Posted - 11 May 2009 : 02:31:33
I haven't read DoF (it's on the never-shrinking list of stuff I still need to buy since re-entering the Realms a year or so ago), but I read (somewhere here in the 'Keep) that it was a typo to list the dragons as a Creator Race. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 10 May 2009 : 23:58:48
The dragons are listed as a creator race in at least one source. Eric Boyd dealt with this anomaly in "Dragons of Faerūn" as I recall.
-- George Krashos |
| Knight of the Gate |
Posted - 10 May 2009 : 18:44:11
AND, I just realized, that Dragons aren't a Creator Race. So now I know, and Knowing is... well, you get the idea. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 10 May 2009 : 11:53:17
Its a common misconception you are suffering from.
The 'Creator Races' are not the races that were 'there from the beginning' (which may actually exclude humans), but rather they are races that were known for having been the progenitors of many other races.
Although there are about 30 races of Giant and Giantkin in D&D, they are all giants, and the only thing they have ever created were other giants. |
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