| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| woodwwad |
Posted - 27 Dec 2009 : 20:32:53
I'm looking for info on aquiring land in the dales. I know that would be a dale by dale answer. The only mention of land owners I've noticed in the 3/3.5 books in the dales is Randel Morn in Daggerfalls, it mentions that he'll give a land grant to anyone that can solve the mystery of the tower but does this mean he owns all the land in Daggerdale? And those living there are basically serfs, or do others own land too, and if so, can you buy land there? Also, I noticed a mention of Sembians owning land in Battledale, many of the ghostholds for example. So who does one buy land from, or there area that are not claimed where you can still homestead and if you own land who do you pay taxes to, and how much? It really raises a lot of questions. But one of my players has mentioned it reciently, so I figure it is good to get quality info on these important questions, instead of just making up numbers. The characters in my game are between 8th and 4th level, so they are at the point where they are starting to have a decent amount of coins. |
| 10 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| TheHermit |
Posted - 25 Aug 2011 : 20:06:18
Bleh. Didn't notice how far back the origins of this topic were. |
| TheHermit |
Posted - 25 Aug 2011 : 17:07:11
Ed had this to say to me as regards lands in the area of Ghost Holds in Battledale:
quote:
Regarding your campaign idea: a great one. It's happening in the 'home' Realms campaign, as it happens. :} The reaction of the folk of Essembra (so long as no Sembian tried to muscle any of them out of THEIR farmland, or stop them woodcutting) would be shrugs from some, "ooh, let's watch the fun" from others, and enthusiasm from the rest. They WANT the Ghost Holds scoured of bandits and undead, and look forward to the coins folk living there might spend locally (although like most Dalefolk, they expect "those haughty, do-anything-to-swindle-you-out-of-a-copper-bit" Sembians to have as little to do with locals as possible). There'd be no fees for taking the properties: "this is ours now" would more or less be what happened. Essembra doesn't tax landholders, either, only transaction licenses and fees on sales of livestock, so the Sembians wouldn't encounter any local "harassment" beyond the occasional armed patrol to "see what they're up to" during construction (if they try to slay or run off the patrols, yes, there would then be a problem, because word would spread, and local adventurers would be quietly told it was okay to regard the newcomers as "brigands to be put down or run off").
If any newcomers (the Sembians or persons they sold various of the holds to) try to set up their own laws, rules, taxes, or armed patrols (beyond their own boundaries -- and note that determining those boundaries is apt to involve some friction), and defy the word out of Essembra, yes, then there WOULD be trouble, and you'd see envoys from all over the Dales arriving with armed escorts (hired adventurers and/or local armsmen) to "explain" local governance to the newcomers.
All in all, this could be a great campaign focus. Buyers of the holds would of course include agents of Hillsfar, the Zhents, the Cult of the Dragon, various Sembian cabals and 'shady business' individuals wanting to dwell outside the easy reach of Sembian authorities, outlaws (including adventuring bands) bringing ill-gotten gains well away from Cormyr, Westgate, or wherever, and so on.
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| Ayrik |
Posted - 25 Aug 2011 : 07:51:17
Force of arms doesn't just apply to the proximity of Zhentil Keep; it's ultimately the rule of law in every land throughout the Realms and throughout our own world, in all periods of history, even the present.
The borders of any sovereign are defined by the reach of it's sword arm. You can claim as many laws apply to land as you like, but you are simply wasting paper unless you have some method of enforcing those laws with force when necessary. Anyone who doesn't own the Dalelands has no authority to issue land grants which parcel those lands out ... not the Crown of Cormyr, not Manshoon and the Zhents, not Elminster ... not unless they should choose to protect ownership of those territories through diligent demonstrations and applications of force. You might as well just get a pretty land-owning certificate from officials in Menzoberranzan or Kara-Tur or Shade or even from the Phaerimm or Gruumsh or Raistlin of Krynn for all it matters (although you'd certainly be much better off not trying to convince any of them to guard your lands).
This might seem positively medieval, but once you discard the veneer of civilization it's how our "enlightened" world works and it's definitively how a medieval-era feudal world works. Great supernations fight over land today just as clans and tribes have done since prehistory, and borders are drawn based primarily on how far they're willing and able to march their armies. Civilization is really just a social consensus, laws are really just an arbitrary social compact, and power is the measure by which people and environments can be forced to comply with those laws in any society.
If you really think land grants empower the occupants of the land in any special way then just see what happens to you and the lands you "own" when you refuse to pay taxes on them. Citizenship within the borders of a powerful sovereign always exacts some price on personal freedoms. |
| Cbad285 |
Posted - 25 Aug 2011 : 07:04:08
In zhentil keep, the guy with the biggest sword owns your land...you just live on it. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 29 Dec 2009 : 01:29:45
quote:
Originally posted by Cyril Lokner
I don't know if the "land grant" mentioned in the FRCS is as you say "not title to land as such". I see the land grant that is mentioned the closest thing (first step) that a individual/family of Daggerdale might get to nobility. I see a land grant given by Lord Morn as more along the lines of true ownership. A land grant holder may charge fees for the use of their land, or can fence off their land and guard it, with notices, prohibiting all or specific uses of it. Often the individuals/families who hold land grants are wealthy, powerful, or both. Daggerfolk often flock to areas where land grant holders stake their claim because of the economic opportunities or protection that land grant holders provide. Certainly Lord Morn could tax a holder of a land grant, should he chose, based upon the number of adults, economic impact, use of Freedom Fighters, etc.
Oh I did not say anything about not being taxed, that follows with all governments, if they can collect it.
When I replied concerning what a land grant was I was in part considering what Ed has said about borders, however I was also considering things like the Catholic Church dividing South American into two parts (part for Spain and part for Portugal) with no regard to the people living in such lands. There are many examples of granting land that was not controlled by the ruler in both hemispheres with the expectation the person so granted would control to land and pay taxes.
From what I have seen of the Realms, the true owners of the land are those that can protect it. A title or even a land grant does not really mean you own the land. |
| Cyril Lokner |
Posted - 29 Dec 2009 : 00:52:35
I don't know if the "land grant" mentioned in the FRCS is as you say "not title to land as such". I see the land grant that is mentioned the closest thing (first step) that a individual/family of Daggerdale might get to nobility. I see a land grant given by Lord Morn as more along the lines of true ownership. A land grant holder may charge fees for the use of their land, or can fence off their land and guard it, with notices, prohibiting all or specific uses of it. Often the individuals/families who hold land grants are wealthy, powerful, or both. Daggerfolk often flock to areas where land grant holders stake their claim because of the economic opportunities or protection that land grant holders provide. Certainly Lord Morn could tax a holder of a land grant, should he chose, based upon the number of adults, economic impact, use of Freedom Fighters, etc.
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
An interesting topic.
As indicated above a Land Grant is not title to land as such.
As to owning land outside the walled communities, it appears to come down to one simple thing.
You own the land you can defend and protect. The Dales like much of the Realms do not have well defined borders of even where one county ends and another starts. The local communities have the same problem when dealing outside of their walls or forts. Oh a Guard patrol might be able to secure a half day ride with some surety from fortifications/bases but even that depends on how many assigned to the task.
The Land Grant almost requires the person receiving it to secure the land against all foes.
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| Kentinal |
Posted - 28 Dec 2009 : 23:20:00
Hmm, who owns Zhental Keep... I am not all that sure. In following the general theme of land holding in the Realm it appears in the end the ruling authority has ultimate ownership.
Oh a family can own land for centuries, however if the ruling power claims it (because of crimes or just non payment of taxes) ownership reverts to the controlling power. It can get more interesting if there are competing centers of power. |
| woodwwad |
Posted - 28 Dec 2009 : 19:57:39
Thanks guys, that was very helpful, I do appreciate your taking the time. I'm taking it, that should be a general attitude throughout the dales? With the lands inside the towns being owned by the people that live there, for the most part. I posted this in another topic but no one has answered that, any ideas on who owns the land of Zhental Keep? Is it all Fzoul or can someone buy and own land in ZK? This is actually a very important topic to me, as I believe one of my pcs will be looking into this on Friday's game. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 28 Dec 2009 : 05:02:46
An interesting topic.
As indicated above a Land Grant is not title to land as such.
As to owning land outside the walled communities, it appears to come down to one simple thing.
You own the land you can defend and protect. The Dales like much of the Realms do not have well defined borders of even where one county ends and another starts. The local communities have the same problem when dealing outside of their walls or forts. Oh a Guard patrol might be able to secure a half day ride with some surety from fortifications/bases but even that depends on how many assigned to the task.
The Land Grant almost requires the person receiving it to secure the land against all foes. |
| Cyril Lokner |
Posted - 28 Dec 2009 : 04:27:39
Here's what Ed had to say about Daggerdale and land ownership on August 8, 2005:
quote:
Daggerdale has been fought over so much in recent years, and so depopulated in the process, that there's plenty of good farmland to go around, and right now land is owned more or less by occupying it. There's no central taxation service (though there are, for example, copper-piece-per-transaction taxes levied in Dagger Falls), nor any surviving, coherent Book of Laws. Indeed, no taxes are payable just for owning farmland, and the Morns do indeed live off the eggs, poultry, livestock, and food crops their own lands yield.
And yes, a family that is farming land would indeed own it. Randal Morn has never been a feudal lord, and neither were his predecessors (some tried to ASSUME rights they did not in law or tradition have, but their rules didn't last long, and can be viewed more or less as a "might makes right" approach). So neither the lord nor a local officer of the lord "owns" or "controls" anyone's land but their own (if they need to put a road through an area, they'll use their might-of-arms to force the landowner to agree, and pay that landowner compensation - - though a Zhentarim "lord," of course, would never pay compensation, and would probably just kill anyone who disagreed with the road-building, or defied his will in any other way).
Of course a family could rent out land to tenant farmers, and your safety (due to location) argument is, as you say, the only reason for tenants to accept rather than just taking possession of a vacant farm and clearing the overgrowth.
I don't see any roving tax collectors yet (though there certainly were in the past, and the Zhents did levy monthly taxes, mainly paid in food), but I do see Randal's men riding in patrols around Daggerdale, and the locals being obligated to feed, water, and shelter them and their mounts (with no coins changing hands at all, and Randal's men pitching in to help with tasks beyond the farmers, like bending their backs to lift a wagon while a new axle is fitted to it)
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