| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| froglegg |
Posted - 26 Jul 2010 : 19:29:12
I have seen alot of attacks both pro 4th edition Realms and anti 4th edition Realms. I have been guilty of my share of throwing more gas on the fire. For me it stops now. I know that truly it does no one any good.
Now this is how I feel about the 4th edition Realms. I hate what they have done to such a great world. I want no part of it.
That is how I feel about it but it is not the law. Everyone does not have to see the 4th edition Realms as I do. If you like the 4th edition Realms you are not a witch needing to be burned at the stake.
Surely Candlekeep is big enough to hold us all, that even if we dont agree we can still live and let live.
My dislike for the 4th edition Realms has made me go back to my roots so to speak. The Old Grey Box, I have talked about it here at the keep before.
I have gone back to it and I have fell in love with the Realms all over again. I have even broke out all of the 1st edition AD&D books and even the BECM box sets.
I will be starting games at 1358DR. From that point on the Realms Lore will be what the player's make. I might add lore from the 2nd edition. (NO TIME OF TROUBLES HAPPENING HERE) And maybe just maybe even some 3rd edition lore. It's my world now just as it's your world too, make it how you like it and have fun with it!
The Realms police are not going to come in the dead of night and kick in your door and tell you that you can't do this or that because it's not official Realms canon.
I will not look down on you if you like 4th edition Realms and in turn dont look down on me for going back to 1st edition Realms.
Now let us all get back to what we love........The Forgotten Realms!
Hey I told you I was a Grognard. 
John |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| froglegg |
Posted - 20 Aug 2010 : 02:16:50
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
quote:
Originally posted by froglegg
quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
I completely agree with your assessment, froglegg; My onliest beef is that now all those NDAs will NEVER be lifted, and while we can give our own answers to those many, many, many unanswered questions, we will never know what the designers intended when they wrote them. That's really the only thing that grieves me; that we will never know what SES, GK, Ed, and the rest *intended* for the Realms. And to my way of thinking, that's a crime. Really. I have spent years and years and thousands of dollars supporting the FR brand, mostly so I could find out what happened. Now I will never know what Khelben planned for the Moonstars, or what the pyramids under Ascore were meant to do, or what lingering influence Myrkul might have had on Laeral, or what sort of Royal Mage Caladnei would have made, or the outcome of Malthiir's efforts to resist Mulmaster and the Zhents, or how Durnan and Mirt met, or why it is that Sylune can't... you get the point. I feel cheated. I could give a rat's behind about rules changes, but the time-jump is nothing less than a slap in the face.
I am taking my FR campaign in the same direction. I'm resetting to 1360, and having my PC's help found Luruar (or not). It's thrilling, and it reminds me of my first love of the Realms; but it doesn't answer a single question, and that will always make me feel cheated.
This is what can be so liberating about your reset to 1360DR! That means you put on your best ED Greenwood hat you got and get buck wild! You answer every last question that you have just exactly as Knight of the Gate wants it! And with what ever your players do you factor that in to. The power is all your's! 
John
I understand that point of view, John, and to some extent I agree with it. My biggest complaint is what KotG mentioned: we'll never know what might have been, because anything that doesn't get published gets locked up in the NDA vaults. Where the rulesets are concerned, it seems that more options are always better (in this respect, 4E is no different from 3.x or 2E), but as soon as it comes to a campaign setting, they clam up and say "less is more" like a mantra, like they're trying hard to convince themselves of the truth of what they're saying. I would love to see campaign settings pursue a more hypothetical approach to timeline advancement, rather than carving everything in stone... mostly because the only way to undo things is to smash the stone, and that's not really helping anybody. The whole reason I buy a campaign setting, rather than create my own, is so that the design work is done for me. With the Realms pre-Spellplague, I had that. With the Realms post-Spellplague, I don't have that, and it's not about what got blown up or changed or retconned into or out of existence. It's about the simple fact that if I want to set a game in the post-Spellplague Realms, by the time I've done the work to make it a setting that my players want to play in, I've either done enough work to have created my own world from scratch, or simply gone back to using all of my pre-Spellplague Realms sources as if nothing had happened... and if you're going to do that, then why bother have the Spellplague happen at all?
It's all a matter of preference for detail; my players and I like a lot of detail, and that makes the pre-Spellplague Realms the setting we prefer to play in. Sadly for me, the absence of new products supporting my preferred game setting is causing my interest to wane, particularly when a game system like Pathfinder and a setting like Golarion exist to give me back everything that the new edition and the Spellplague took away. I have plenty of my own ideas for reimagining the Realms, but what I want is the old lore that we all know about but will likely never see: the complete Haunted Halls, the Cormyr Royal Lineage, Ed's original Netheril, Ed's original Unther and Mulhorand, and so much more. The only reason I put up with the Time of Troubles in my campaigns was because I hadn't started DMing in the Realms until after the Forgotten Realms Adventures hardback came out, so I was used to the changes. I'm in the process now of going back and changing many things, but I'm doing it as a massive retcon rather than a setting reboot, because I don't want to send everything right back to 1358. I have three parties of adventurers from past campaigns who have become notable powers in their own right and none of their accomplishments will be affected by my retcons, and I don't want to lose them as plot hooks for future campaigns.
Anyway, that's all I wanted to say here; I'll stop rambling now. Thank you to froglegg for making this scroll in the first place and letting me know that at least one other person feels exactly the same way I do about the Realms. 
You can ramble any time you want to Jakk. Your words are as strong as steel. And no you are not alone. Good gaming to you. 
John |
| Jakk |
Posted - 20 Aug 2010 : 01:44:43
quote:
Originally posted by froglegg
quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
I completely agree with your assessment, froglegg; My onliest beef is that now all those NDAs will NEVER be lifted, and while we can give our own answers to those many, many, many unanswered questions, we will never know what the designers intended when they wrote them. That's really the only thing that grieves me; that we will never know what SES, GK, Ed, and the rest *intended* for the Realms. And to my way of thinking, that's a crime. Really. I have spent years and years and thousands of dollars supporting the FR brand, mostly so I could find out what happened. Now I will never know what Khelben planned for the Moonstars, or what the pyramids under Ascore were meant to do, or what lingering influence Myrkul might have had on Laeral, or what sort of Royal Mage Caladnei would have made, or the outcome of Malthiir's efforts to resist Mulmaster and the Zhents, or how Durnan and Mirt met, or why it is that Sylune can't... you get the point. I feel cheated. I could give a rat's behind about rules changes, but the time-jump is nothing less than a slap in the face.
I am taking my FR campaign in the same direction. I'm resetting to 1360, and having my PC's help found Luruar (or not). It's thrilling, and it reminds me of my first love of the Realms; but it doesn't answer a single question, and that will always make me feel cheated.
This is what can be so liberating about your reset to 1360DR! That means you put on your best ED Greenwood hat you got and get buck wild! You answer every last question that you have just exactly as Knight of the Gate wants it! And with what ever your players do you factor that in to. The power is all your's!
John
I understand that point of view, John, and to some extent I agree with it. My biggest complaint is what KotG mentioned: we'll never know what might have been, because anything that doesn't get published gets locked up in the NDA vaults. Where the rulesets are concerned, it seems that more options are always better (in this respect, 4E is no different from 3.x or 2E), but as soon as it comes to a campaign setting, they clam up and say "less is more" like a mantra, like they're trying hard to convince themselves of the truth of what they're saying. I would love to see campaign settings pursue a more hypothetical approach to timeline advancement, rather than carving everything in stone... mostly because the only way to undo things is to smash the stone, and that's not really helping anybody. The whole reason I buy a campaign setting, rather than create my own, is so that the design work is done for me. With the Realms pre-Spellplague, I had that. With the Realms post-Spellplague, I don't have that, and it's not about what got blown up or changed or retconned into or out of existence. It's about the simple fact that if I want to set a game in the post-Spellplague Realms, by the time I've done the work to make it a setting that my players want to play in, I've either done enough work to have created my own world from scratch, or simply gone back to using all of my pre-Spellplague Realms sources as if nothing had happened... and if you're going to do that, then why bother have the Spellplague happen at all?
It's all a matter of preference for detail; my players and I like a lot of detail, and that makes the pre-Spellplague Realms the setting we prefer to play in. Sadly for me, the absence of new products supporting my preferred game setting is causing my interest to wane, particularly when a game system like Pathfinder and a setting like Golarion exist to give me back everything that the new edition and the Spellplague took away. I have plenty of my own ideas for reimagining the Realms, but what I want is the old lore that we all know about but will likely never see: the complete Haunted Halls, the Cormyr Royal Lineage, Ed's original Netheril, Ed's original Unther and Mulhorand, and so much more. The only reason I put up with the Time of Troubles in my campaigns was because I hadn't started DMing in the Realms until after the Forgotten Realms Adventures hardback came out, so I was used to the changes. I'm in the process now of going back and changing many things, but I'm doing it as a massive retcon rather than a setting reboot, because I don't want to send everything right back to 1358. I have three parties of adventurers from past campaigns who have become notable powers in their own right and none of their accomplishments will be affected by my retcons, and I don't want to lose them as plot hooks for future campaigns.
Anyway, that's all I wanted to say here; I'll stop rambling now. Thank you to froglegg for making this scroll in the first place and letting me know that at least one other person feels exactly the same way I do about the Realms. |
| froglegg |
Posted - 01 Aug 2010 : 03:13:14
quote:
Originally posted by froglegg
I am happy to report that my wife has agreed to play a one on one Forgotten Realms Campaign. We will be useing the 1st edition AD&D rules set with just a few house rules. The game will pick up at the 1st day of Hammer 1358DR and she will be playing a magic-user. She will be starting in one of the hearts of evil.....Zentel Keep!
I am thinking that this has dark and gritty written all over it. 
John
Well we have had our first game and so feel free to come and see it. Just remember not to be to hard on me, I am not a pro writer after all. But please let me know what you think. Thanks.
http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=44334
John |
| froglegg |
Posted - 31 Jul 2010 : 15:31:33
quote:
Originally posted by Varl
quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
I have spent years and years and thousands of dollars supporting the FR brand, mostly so I could find out what happened.
This trend is a sad testimony to the entertainment industry these days. While completely unrelated, over the past 5 years or so, I've had no less than 4+ television shows canceled in a similar fashion, leaving us the fans, grieving and at a total loss how they can just kill a series with absolutely no concern over finishing storylines. Carnivale, Six Feet Under, Sarah Connor Chronicles, Flash Forward, and others. The same pangs of disappointment have made me swear off series tv. I refuse to let them get my hopes up yet again on a series that looks good only to have them yank it after one season and with many unresolved cliffhangers.
This was one of the many reasons I decided to not pursue 4e Realms (or 3e Realms for the most part). The usable lore is the one redeeming feature for me of any new edition that is, ironically, backwards compatible with any edition because of what it is. Lore is king; the rest is merely math.
I picked up all but the last 4 of the 3rd edition Realms. The sad thing is that had I not found out about the coming of 4th edition, I would have been taken for more money. 
John |
| Varl |
Posted - 31 Jul 2010 : 05:01:18
quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
I have spent years and years and thousands of dollars supporting the FR brand, mostly so I could find out what happened.
This trend is a sad testimony to the entertainment industry these days. While completely unrelated, over the past 5 years or so, I've had no less than 4+ television shows canceled in a similar fashion, leaving us the fans, grieving and at a total loss how they can just kill a series with absolutely no concern over finishing storylines. Carnivale, Six Feet Under, Sarah Connor Chronicles, Flash Forward, and others. The same pangs of disappointment have made me swear off series tv. I refuse to let them get my hopes up yet again on a series that looks good only to have them yank it after one season and with many unresolved cliffhangers.
This was one of the many reasons I decided to not pursue 4e Realms (or 3e Realms for the most part). The usable lore is the one redeeming feature for me of any new edition that is, ironically, backwards compatible with any edition because of what it is. Lore is king; the rest is merely math. |
| Daviot |
Posted - 29 Jul 2010 : 02:32:30
quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
I completely agree with your assessment, froglegg; My onliest beef is that now all those NDAs will NEVER be lifted, and while we can give our own answers to those many, many, many unanswered questions, we will never know what the designers intended when they wrote them. That's really the only thing that grieves me; that we will never know what SES, GK, Ed, and the rest *intended* for the Realms. And to my way of thinking, that's a crime.
Frankly, yes it's irritating, but only because humans have a deeply-ingrained nigh-instinctual need for story. We always want to know "what happens next".
But yes, throwing out the anchor at a point you like and running with it is a very good to sidestep the "crime", as you put it. |
| Dreyrugrulfr |
Posted - 28 Jul 2010 : 21:29:44
That sounds like alot of fun, Dalor! We badly need some feminine wit and wisdom (of the genuine sort) in our local group. Guess we scared them all off :P Concerning 4th, I appreciate that the game has changed and evolved (I find plenty of things to like about the system itself), but more than anything I just have too many things to do and explore in ye Realms of Olde before I could even begin to think about dealing with all this new stuff. So I'll leave it to those who like it, and continue on. We haven't even gotten to the Time of Troubles in our group anyways, and I think that part alone will be vastly rewritten/revised so that the players can take a more active part in it. |
| froglegg |
Posted - 28 Jul 2010 : 15:11:00
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
SWEET!
My wife likes to play D&D too...and now her sister has moved in with us...and their friend; so I have THREE women thinking about having me run a D&D game for them.
It will be weird...but one thing I will never have to worry about is them saying something like: "Well, I'm going to go wench it up now!" and expect me to play the part of their target whore!
Could be a role-playing intense game!
Don't feel to safe. I remember the first campaign I played with my wife; in the first session she hit on Gellana Mirrorshade whilst investigating Bhalite murders in Baldurs gate. And most women I have gamed with up through the years could be just as raunchy as any males.
Then again, it might just be the kind of people I know.
Well alright Dalor Darden! It sounds like you have a ready made gaming group right at home so let the dice and the good times roll. 
I know what you mean Jorkens. The way my wife has played some of her characters and useing there feminine wiles it would make the most daring priestess of Sune or Sharess blush.
John |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 28 Jul 2010 : 08:41:26
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
SWEET!
My wife likes to play D&D too...and now her sister has moved in with us...and their friend; so I have THREE women thinking about having me run a D&D game for them.
It will be weird...but one thing I will never have to worry about is them saying something like: "Well, I'm going to go wench it up now!" and expect me to play the part of their target whore!
Could be a role-playing intense game!
Don't feel to safe. I remember the first campaign I played with my wife; in the first session she hit on Gellana Mirrorshade whilst investigating Bhalite murders in Baldurs gate. And most women I have gamed with up through the years could be just as raunchy as any males.
Then again, it might just be the kind of people I know. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 28 Jul 2010 : 05:08:24
SWEET!
My wife likes to play D&D too...and now her sister has moved in with us...and their friend; so I have THREE women thinking about having me run a D&D game for them.
It will be weird...but one thing I will never have to worry about is them saying something like: "Well, I'm going to go wench it up now!" and expect me to play the part of their target whore!
Could be a role-playing intense game! |
| froglegg |
Posted - 28 Jul 2010 : 02:20:09
I am happy to report that my wife has agreed to play a one on one Forgotten Realms Campaign. We will be useing the 1st edition AD&D rules set with just a few house rules. The game will pick up at the 1st day of Hammer 1358DR and she will be playing a magic-user. She will be starting in one of the hearts of evil.....Zentel Keep!
I am thinking that this has dark and gritty written all over it.
John |
| froglegg |
Posted - 27 Jul 2010 : 17:46:10
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
The next time I run a Realms game it will be 1358 using the 4E Rules.
My homebrew will use the 3E rules. I have been thinking about making it an E-6 game.
More power to you Brimstone! I believe I talked to you some where on here about useing 3.5 rules with The Old Grey Box. I was toying with the whole 3.5 rules with 1st edition feel type thing. To be honest with you I still find this very intriguing.
John |
| froglegg |
Posted - 27 Jul 2010 : 17:39:00
quote:
Originally posted by Snowblood
Well we use 2nd edition rules (lightly applied), original D&D combat system like experts/masters etc (makes combat deadly and quick as it should be after all swords are mighty sharp)....and 3.5 for monsters HD........and even fourth edition lore...that coz we like to time jump all over the shop & sample all the wares the realms emporium has to offer.....and what we don't know or what Ed can't tell us...we make up.....after all its a fantasy setting not ye olde Eurasia....
See now this is what it's all about! Take what works and what you like and just run away with it!
John |
| froglegg |
Posted - 27 Jul 2010 : 17:35:20
quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
Froggleg I agree. I pretty much have fallen in love with the realms again by working out ways the Spell plague was averted. My Current campaign is 1400DR.
One thing I have noticed though. Since 4e's release there has been very little in the way fo netbooks and such here. There are projects I am working on for the realms. I just finished a majour Mass Effect alternity milestone so I started working on the Realms again.
I read your post about the 2nd Time of Troubles and I liked it. It goes to show you what lore can be written when the heart of the writer is in it. As for lack of netbooks, **push push** and **prod prod** Mournblade you are a natural. |
| froglegg |
Posted - 27 Jul 2010 : 17:18:57
quote:
Originally posted by Sylrae
Hey guys. I agree. You don't have to use 4e to enjoy the realms, not does someone using post spellplague need to ruin your fun.
Daviot: I use the PFRPG Rules and 1e-3.5e setting as well! PM Me and maybe we can exchange some converted materials? What have you got?
Personally, I'm in the middle of prepping an FR game. We're going to start with 1385DR right before the death of mystra. Then the game is going backward in time to 714 DR or maybe a bit before that. After that, every future campaign is going to continue from 714 DR. Other than what the players interfere with, history will unfold as it did in canon. Future games are going to take past games as canon though from this point on. :)
I don't have much of a use for 4e FR stuff beyond the occasional Idea, but I can still go around collecting old books, and the content that fans are writing/compiling lately using all the old lore as references is fantastic. I've loved all of Snowblood's Articles, and while Elves of Faerun won't see wholesale use in my games, I'm sure I'll appropriate parts of it for my game.
714DR Cool! Now thats a going to be going wayyyyyy back. Oh the lore that you and your player's could write. As Rockey would say "Go For It!"
John |
| froglegg |
Posted - 27 Jul 2010 : 17:12:01
quote:
Originally posted by Judd
I am playing a game out of the gray box too, pre ToT.
Let's meet in the Yawning Portal and toast it.
**Heads out for the Yawning Portal**
John |
| froglegg |
Posted - 27 Jul 2010 : 17:09:55
quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
I completely agree with your assessment, froglegg; My onliest beef is that now all those NDAs will NEVER be lifted, and while we can give our own answers to those many, many, many unanswered questions, we will never know what the designers intended when they wrote them. That's really the only thing that grieves me; that we will never know what SES, GK, Ed, and the rest *intended* for the Realms. And to my way of thinking, that's a crime. Really. I have spent years and years and thousands of dollars supporting the FR brand, mostly so I could find out what happened. Now I will never know what Khelben planned for the Moonstars, or what the pyramids under Ascore were meant to do, or what lingering influence Myrkul might have had on Laeral, or what sort of Royal Mage Caladnei would have made, or the outcome of Malthiir's efforts to resist Mulmaster and the Zhents, or how Durnan and Mirt met, or why it is that Sylune can't... you get the point. I feel cheated. I could give a rat's behind about rules changes, but the time-jump is nothing less than a slap in the face.
I am taking my FR campaign in the same direction. I'm resetting to 1360, and having my PC's help found Luruar (or not). It's thrilling, and it reminds me of my first love of the Realms; but it doesn't answer a single question, and that will always make me feel cheated.
This is what can be so liberating about your reset to 1360DR! That means you put on your best ED Greenwood hat you got and get buck wild! You answer every last question that you have just exactly as Knight of the Gate wants it! And with what ever your players do you factor that in to. The power is all your's!
John |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 27 Jul 2010 : 12:20:16
The next time I run a Realms game it will be 1358 using the 4E Rules.
My homebrew will use the 3E rules. I have been thinking about making it an E-6 game. |
| Snowblood |
Posted - 27 Jul 2010 : 10:57:16
Well we use 2nd edition rules (lightly applied), original D&D combat system like experts/masters etc (makes combat deadly and quick as it should be after all swords are mighty sharp)....and 3.5 for monsters HD........and even fourth edition lore...that coz we like to time jump all over the shop & sample all the wares the realms emporium has to offer.....and what we don't know or what Ed can't tell us...we make up.....after all its a fantasy setting not ye olde Eurasia.... |
| Knight of the Gate |
Posted - 27 Jul 2010 : 08:48:19
I completely agree with your assessment, froglegg; My onliest beef is that now all those NDAs will NEVER be lifted, and while we can give our own answers to those many, many, many unanswered questions, we will never know what the designers intended when they wrote them. That's really the only thing that grieves me; that we will never know what SES, GK, Ed, and the rest *intended* for the Realms. And to my way of thinking, that's a crime. Really. I have spent years and years and thousands of dollars supporting the FR brand, mostly so I could find out what happened. Now I will never know what Khelben planned for the Moonstars, or what the pyramids under Ascore were meant to do, or what lingering influence Myrkul might have had on Laeral, or what sort of Royal Mage Caladnei would have made, or the outcome of Malthiir's efforts to resist Mulmaster and the Zhents, or how Durnan and Mirt met, or why it is that Sylune can't... you get the point. I feel cheated. I could give a rat's behind about rules changes, but the time-jump is nothing less than a slap in the face.
I am taking my FR campaign in the same direction. I'm resetting to 1360, and having my PC's help found Luruar (or not). It's thrilling, and it reminds me of my first love of the Realms; but it doesn't answer a single question, and that will always make me feel cheated. |
| Mournblade |
Posted - 27 Jul 2010 : 05:53:54
Froggleg I agree. I pretty much have fallen in love with the realms again by working out ways the Spell plague was averted. My Current campaign is 1400DR.
One thing I have noticed though. Since 4e's release there has been very little in the way fo netbooks and such here. There are projects I am working on for the realms. I just finished a majour Mass Effect alternity milestone so I started working on the Realms again.
|
| Judd |
Posted - 27 Jul 2010 : 04:11:25
I am playing a game out of the gray box too, pre ToT.
Let's meet in the Yawning Portal and toast it. |
| froglegg |
Posted - 27 Jul 2010 : 00:57:40
**Raises mug to toast with Daviot**
John |
| Sylrae |
Posted - 27 Jul 2010 : 00:22:22
Hey guys. I agree. You don't have to use 4e to enjoy the realms, not does someone using post spellplague need to ruin your fun.
Daviot: I use the PFRPG Rules and 1e-3.5e setting as well! PM Me and maybe we can exchange some converted materials? What have you got?
Personally, I'm in the middle of prepping an FR game. We're going to start with 1385DR right before the death of mystra. Then the game is going backward in time to 714 DR or maybe a bit before that. After that, every future campaign is going to continue from 714 DR. Other than what the players interfere with, history will unfold as it did in canon. Future games are going to take past games as canon though from this point on. :)
I don't have much of a use for 4e FR stuff beyond the occasional Idea, but I can still go around collecting old books, and the content that fans are writing/compiling lately using all the old lore as references is fantastic. I've loved all of Snowblood's Articles, and while Elves of Faerun won't see wholesale use in my games, I'm sure I'll appropriate parts of it for my game. |
| Daviot |
Posted - 26 Jul 2010 : 20:16:45
[Raises a mug in toast.] Ed's always said [paraphrasing] to take what you wanted from the Realms and use it in a manner that works for you. My own group is using a recent ruleset, but 2E Realms books and time period, blazing our own trails. And it works for us.
So scribes, while we do tend to get obsessed about "canon", sometimes it's best to take what you like, add in whatever alternate versions or fan material works best for you, ignore the rest, run with it, and just have fun. |
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