| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dennis |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 05:35:58
I find it unusual that there exists such permanent edge – the silverfire – over anyone, be it corporeal or otherwise. Silverfire breaks all kinds of defenses, even those by Larloch himself, the mythal, and quite possibly, if it still exists, the gods-barrier of the Imaskari. And somehow, I see it as an imbalance in power in the Realms. I recall some powerful wizards outside FR whose rank and magical abilities might be akin to the Chosen's, or at least to El's, Khelben's, and The Simbul's: the necromancer Drake (from Gail Z. Martin's novels), whose favor of their goddess occasionally saves him from impasses; the Midkemian wizard Pug (from Raymond E. Feist's books), whose mastery of the Greater Path lends him considerable magical strength; and the amber wizard Gerin Atreyano (from David Forbes's novels), whose inner “magical conduit” allows him to summon vast amount of magic no other wizard could. Yet these three do not have something in them that can rend all kinds of magical barrier or destroy all sorts of material and immaterial creatures. There are of course some artifacts outside the Realms that function like the silverfire, but unlike the latter, they can be stolen; hence, the edge can be passed from one character to another, much unlike the silverfire, which stays with the Chosen.
The only wizard in the Realms I can think to have devised a counter-spell to the silverfire is The Sojourner. Having a goal that literally spells immeasurable destruction in Toril, he must have been aware that sooner or later, the Chosen would take interest and personally stop him. What other preparation he could make than arm himself with a defense against the Chosen's most potent weapon: the silverfire?! I'd like to think that he made such spell from the combined energies of the Weave and the Shadow Weave, with a deva and a shade as sacrifices.
Or is there someone else who really invented such a spell?
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 19 Sep 2010 : 09:52:18
I remember some scribes asked Ed something along that line, and as expected, they faced the big monster: NDA.  |
| Menelvagor |
Posted - 19 Sep 2010 : 09:21:49
On the other hand, it's hard to believe that Mystryl was as prepared for such a happening that she already had a 'vessel' lined up for her power, and that (at least compared to the Spellplague/ToT) the collateral damage was over in so short a time, and yet, Mystryl wasn't prepared enough to actually stop Karsus.
More reason to ask Ed about it, isn't it? You or me?
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| Dennis |
Posted - 19 Sep 2010 : 00:53:12
quote:
Originally posted by Menelvagor
quote:
Originally posted by dennis:
Karsus was able to devise a spell that stole the very divinity, the powers of Mystryl, which by extension means that such spell is more powerful than the silverfire since the silverfire is but a portion of Mystryl's power. Although the nature of Karsus's Avatar is different from a spell-shield, still, the point is: if a spell was one created by a mere mortal without divine intervention that rivaled the powers of a god, I don't think it's impossible that another wizard or a cabal of wizards could fashion a shield against the silverfire.
But we don't know everything about what happened with Karsus and Mystryl. In fact, I think Markus is developing some theory in Ed's thread about an 'update' of Mystra or something... Mystra renewing herself? So she may have allowed Karsus to do what she did. The best answer (to my mind) would be obtained if we ask Ed. And if the answe is NDA (which is probable), we'll keep debating it here.
I remember Ed once said that mere mortals do not and will never comprehend the gods. But Mystra intentionally allowing Karsus to strip her divinity so she could renew herself? No, that doesn't sound right for me. She could have simply asked Lathander or any of the gods to temporarily destroy her so she could renew herself. Why need a mortal to do a job best done by the gods? Moreover, it doesn't make sense that she would intentionally allow Netheril to fall. The Netherese were the best spellcasters at that time (and perhaps in the history of Toril). And isn't it that she wanted as many people to practice the Art?! Lastly, it was the phaerimm that she deemed a problem. Why eliminate an entire empire who could best eradicate her problem?
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| Menelvagor |
Posted - 18 Sep 2010 : 19:41:07
quote:
Originally posted by dennis:
Karsus was able to devise a spell that stole the very divinity, the powers of Mystryl, which by extension means that such spell is more powerful than the silverfire since the silverfire is but a portion of Mystryl's power. Although the nature of Karsus's Avatar is different from a spell-shield, still, the point is: if a spell was one created by a mere mortal without divine intervention that rivaled the powers of a god, I don't think it's impossible that another wizard or a cabal of wizards could fashion a shield against the silverfire.
But we don't know everything about what happened with Karsus and Mystryl. In fact, I think Markus is developing some theory in Ed's thread about an 'update' of Mystra or something... Mystra renewing herself? So she may have allowed Karsus to do what she did. The best answer (to my mind) would be obtained if we ask Ed. And if the answe is NDA (which is probable), we'll keep debating it here. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 18 Sep 2010 : 01:52:41
Good point. And quite honestly, I'd love it if it's not the cockroach who invented such a spell. Did I mention I detest him?
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| idilippy |
Posted - 18 Sep 2010 : 01:43:54
I'm not sure, does Elminster even need his silver fire to take out Manshoon? After the scene in Swords of Dragonfire where Elminster openly taunts Manshoon with the number of clones left and then by transporting a disassembled Manshoon clone to Manshoon's private chambers I get the feeling that the Sage of Shadowdale has no need for silver fire to take out Manshoon, and that he'd likely be more worried about countering all of El's spells first. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 18 Sep 2010 : 01:27:25
I've got another guess: the cockroach Manshoon. Could it be that he often lured and even sought Elminster so he could test his invention himself? El has long been a thorn in his throat, so it'd be logical that he'd at least rid El of his most powerful arsenal, the silverfire.
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| Dennis |
Posted - 18 Sep 2010 : 00:00:17
I don't see why not. But all I have are conjectures, albeit very plausible. It would quench my curiosity to know that there really is someone who succeeded in devising that spell---who he is and how he managed to develop it.
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| idilippy |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 23:39:18
That is true, of course that assumes the one the spell is cast upon can force the Chosen to use their silver fire, which seems to be more of a last resort to me than a common weapon. Still, it is possible that over time a lich or long lived opponent of the chosen could find a way to develop such a shield. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 23:23:51
Hmm, possibly, such spell-shield can be cast to a person or entity. Hence, a Red Wizard can use it on his most expendable lackey and send that minion to face a Chosen and shout those words of greeting I mentioned earlier.
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| idilippy |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 23:13:19
Oh, that's another thing I hadn't thought of, how do you test it and perfect it? Most Red Wizards are secretive and selfish sorts, it's unlikely they'd be willing to leave their spell notes for their successors to build on if they've failed. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 23:07:07
quote:
Originally posted by idilippy
It's a bit of a cop out but it could explain why many of the bright minds who oppose the Chosen, like every Thayan who wants to face the Simbul, haven't yet developed a shield for the silver fire.
Possibilities could run wild... Maybe the Red Wizards might not be powerful enough to accomplish such feat; or perhaps they simply don't think it a problem since they can arm themselves with teleportation spells which they'd likely use upon an encounter with a Chosen; or maybe they have been trying to, but so far have not succeeded due to lack of something to test such spells. You can't expect a Red Wizard, even a zulkir, to simply barge in Elminster's tower and say, "Hello there, El. I hope you're in the mood for a little battle, 'cause you see, I invented a spell that I hope will resist silverfire. And I want to test its effectivity. Could you throw me your silverfire, please, and let's see if I still live after?"
Considering Tam's ultimate goal, complete annihilation of the world to herald his ascension to godhood, (which at one point will force the Chosen to defy him personally), I suspect he also tried to create such a spell-barrier.
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| idilippy |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 22:46:51
But weren't the rules of Magic fundamentally changed after Karsus' attempt to prevent such a powerful spell from being possible? Would that open the door for campaigns set before the fall of Netheril to have spells capable of blocking silver fire but not campaigns set after the rules of magic were changed? It's a bit of a cop out but it could explain why many of the bright minds who oppose the Chosen, like every Thayan who wants to face the Simbul, haven't yet developed a shield for the silver fire. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 22:37:39
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
Actually, you could turn it around and ask the question: "why can the novels not stick to game mechanics"?
Obviously because that would create implausible and uninteresting stories where relating to the characters and setting would be extremely difficult. D&D mechanics are so far removed from reality or the type of fiction that most people enjoy that such novels would feel like comedy, whether or not they were intending such.
Agreed. Richard even pointed out something that differentiates the Realms as a gaming setting and a novel setting.
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
My perspective (and you and everyone else should please feel free to skip this if you've read it when I said it before) is that the Forgotten Realms is ultimately neither a gaming setting nor a novel setting. It's a kind of dream, a glorious world of the imagination Ed created and allowed the rest of us to share. Now, when a novelist goes to tell a story about it, he looks at it through one lens, the lens that allows him to create effective fiction. When a game designer or DM looks at it, he looks at it through a different lens, the lens that allows him to create a satisfying gaming scenario.
So treat the game as it is, and the novel as it is. Do not mind the differences, as you cannot expect an author to incorporate all game mechanics in a novel, unless he wants to make fun of himself and WotC allows him so (which is of course very, very unlikely).
quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
I do not think it is possible for a wizard, or even a cabal of wizards, to develop a spell which is fundamentally akin to Silverfire. Silverfire is an indirect, or maybe a proxy use, of Divine power.
As I mentioned, Karsus was able to devise a spell that stole the very divinity, the powers of Mystryl, which by extension means that such spell is more powerful than the silverfire since the silverfire is but a portion of Mystryl's power. Although the nature of Karsus's Avatar is different from a spell-shield, still, the point is: if a spell was one created by a mere mortal without divine intervention that rivaled the powers of a god, I don't think it's impossible that another wizard or a cabal of wizards could fashion a shield against the silverfire.
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| Thauramarth |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 22:17:07
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Obviously because that would create implausible and uninteresting stories where relating to the characters and setting would be extremely difficult. D&D mechanics are so far removed from reality or the type of fiction that most people enjoy that such novels would feel like comedy, whether or not they were intending such.
Well, obviously...
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
But given that roleplaying games are supposed to be vehicles to tell stories, explore characters and settings, the question is, why use mechanics that are actively hostile to the kind of stories that you want to tell?
D&D doesn't fit most fantasy that I read. It doesn't even fit most fantasy that is supposedly written in D&D game worlds. Why then would people use it to tell stories set in those worlds?
Well... a roleplaying game is, in my view, a game first and foremost. That means you have to have some kind of mechanics, and no amount of mechanics can get close to simulating real life. But then again, realism is not necessarily high on my agenda, when it comes to roleplaying games. It's be realistic for dragons to have instant kill ability, but for the player character it's not necessarily all that much fun.
But I agree with you that novels and the D&D system do not mix well - which has led to a series of problems with D&D worlds used for both novels and games - a world can't be equally good for both. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 22:13:56
quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
As to the OP: I think it'd be wiser for a mage to seek the favor of Shar or perhaps Velsharoon for aid in crafting a spell that doesn't protect against Silver Fire so much as it re-routes the power back on the source or routes it into another plane. If such a defensive spell is cast as a means of protecing something or someone sacred to the deity that gave the aid, all the better.
The spell-shield could be of two nature: that which reroutes the silverfire; and that which destroys it upon contact. But I suppose the rerouting is better, since the energy it would need is less than that of the latter.
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| The Red Walker |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 22:02:43
quote:
Originally posted by Darsson Spellmaker
As the Sojourner never came into conflict with the Chosen of Mystra, we really can't say what preparations he would have made for such an encounter. We do know that his defensive spells and magics weren't enough to stop a Chosen of Mask (who, magically speaking, is certainly weaker than any of Mystra's champions), though.
While it's true that there is no way to defend against a silver fire beam, keep in mind that the Chosen can only use that ability once every 70 minutes. And no archmage worthy of the name would be instantly killed by 4d12 damage. I know in novels silver fire has been portrayed as an instant death effect (ie., Storm Silverhand killing Shade Prince Escanor with a single bolt, Elminster destroying an entire ring of death tyrants with a blast, or Larloch admitting that one hit with silver fire would be enough to destroy him), but that's the novels. Very different from the game mechanics.
So if your spellmantle-warded elven archmage is battling the Simbul spell-to-spell and she uses her silver fire beam, you'll take damage, but your elf's defenses are still in place and still apply to everything else she will throw at you for the next 69 minutes.
You make some good points. One thing the mechanics overlook though, if that one bolt.....which cannot be defended against, hits you in your heart or brain pan.....your dead...even if it only does 1hp damage! |
| Mr_Miscellany |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 21:33:55
I always felt that of all the game systems and editions of D&D, 3.5 did the absolute best job of joining flavor with mechanics. Having a robust system that can translate all the fluffy stuff into crunchy rules is a good thing, IMO.
I even remember questioning how Drizzt could put on his feet magic items meant for his arms. It irked me, that. But it was a good lesson and a reminder that the Realms can be modeled by the rules, but the rules don't make the Realms.
As to the OP: I think it'd be wiser for a mage to seek the favor of Shar or perhaps Velsharoon for aid in crafting a spell that doesn't protect against Silver Fire so much as it re-routes the power back on the source or routes it into another plane. If such a defensive spell is cast as a means of protecing something or someone sacred to the deity that gave the aid, all the better. |
| The Red Walker |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 21:28:43
I think it ultimately comes down to the fact that it's the gift of the goddess of magic. What she givith, she ca taketh away. I'm having a hard time think of when it was used in a way that did not in some shape or form protect magic as a whole. I can't see Mystra letting it be used a a great offensive weapon, so it's really not an advantage unless your a weilder of it who is under attack. I could easily see her denying it's misuse for anything other than the purpose it was granted. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 21:06:06
quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
Actually, you could turn it around and ask the question: "why can the novels not stick to game mechanics"?
Obviously because that would create implausible and uninteresting stories where relating to the characters and setting would be extremely difficult. D&D mechanics are so far removed from reality or the type of fiction that most people enjoy that such novels would feel like comedy, whether or not they were intending such.
But given that roleplaying games are supposed to be vehicles to tell stories, explore characters and settings, the question is, why use mechanics that are actively hostile to the kind of stories that you want to tell?
D&D doesn't fit most fantasy that I read. It doesn't even fit most fantasy that is supposedly written in D&D game worlds. Why then would people use it to tell stories set in those worlds? |
| Brace Cormaeril |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 18:32:55
I do not think it is possible for a wizard, or even a cabal of wizards, to develop a spell which is fundamentally akin to Silverfire. Silverfire is an indirect, or maybe a proxy use, of Divine power.
I think it more likely that other Powers would develop their own 'silverfire'.
As an extension of Shar's Shadow Weave, Shar could choose to grant her followers 'Shadowfire'.
Shar could then possess a human female, a coerce a human male to get her with child. She could, in this way, develop a counter-balance to the Seven Sisters. She could call them the "Shadow Sisters".
Bane would not be far behind, of course. I'm thinking 'Tyrant Fire' and his dark 'Sisters of Tyranny'.
Oh! 'Luck Fire' and "Tymora's Lucky Ladies"!
Lurue could have "Hornfire" and her seven "Daughter of the Unicorn"!
Wait, Loviatar and "Painfire", with her seven "Ladies of Pain".
Nobanion's Chosen could belch "Lionfire", and spawn seven "Lady Lions"!
On second thought, I think it'd be cooler if Mystra did some unique things. I think just because certain (interesting) aspects of the campaign setting get more press time then others doesn't necasarliyy mean that they are more powerful/important/etc. |
| Thauramarth |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 14:31:50
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Darsson Spellmaker
I know in novels silver fire has been portrayed as an instant death effect (ie., Storm Silverhand killing Shade Prince Escanor with a single bolt, Elminster destroying an entire ring of death tyrants with a blast, or Larloch admitting that one hit with silver fire would be enough to destroy him), but that's the novels. Very different from the game mechanics.
Why is it so very different?
Why can't the game mechanics model stories like those in novels? Why is it acceptable to players that they cannot?
Actually, you could turn it around and ask the question: "why can the novels not stick to game mechanics"?
All started with Drizzt, of course, and also because AD&D's game mechanics are a poor simulation of "reality" (if you accept the whole magic, etc. as reality). Instant kills of higher-level or higher-HD opponennts, in 1E and 2E rules, were almost impossible under the rules. It's one of the unfortunate fallouts of the attempt to get a cohesive between action in novels and actions in game mechanics. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 14:07:27
quote:
Originally posted by Menelvagor
I don't mean there's a spell to negate Silver Fire.
Okay, that clears the confusion.
quote:
That would be kind of weird - if Silver Fire is Mystra's gift to her Chosen so that they have superpowers in her service, and in some instances it's implied that Silver Fire is the essence of Mystra herself, it would be counter-productive for Mystra to allow any spell which counters it.
Good point. But if Mystryl herself did not have the counter-spell to Karsus's Avatar (which drew power from the Weave) and even resorted to killing herself, I'm more inclined to believe that there is a possibility that someone (or perhaps it would take a cabal of wizards) can create a spell that negates silverfire. Besides, there is the Shadow Weave, another source of magic, that any wizards can tap on. And as I mentioned in my OP concerning the Sojourner, it might take the combined energies of both weaves to fashion such spell.
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| Icelander |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 12:58:42
quote:
Originally posted by Darsson Spellmaker
I know in novels silver fire has been portrayed as an instant death effect (ie., Storm Silverhand killing Shade Prince Escanor with a single bolt, Elminster destroying an entire ring of death tyrants with a blast, or Larloch admitting that one hit with silver fire would be enough to destroy him), but that's the novels. Very different from the game mechanics.
Why is it so very different?
Why can't the game mechanics model stories like those in novels? Why is it acceptable to players that they cannot? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 11:50:32
I agree. It doesn't make sense to have a magical defense against pure magic from the goddess of magic herself. |
| Menelvagor |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 11:34:01
I don't mean there's a spell to negate Silver Fire. That would be kind of weird - if Silver Fire is Mystra's gift to her Chosen so that they have superpowers in her service, and in some instances it's implied that Silver Fire is the essence of Mystra herself, it would be counter-productive for Mystra to allow any spell which counters it. What I mean is that Mystra has set enough strictures against using Silver Fire too much that the Chosen understand that Silver Fire is a last resort weapon. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 09:47:49
quote:
Originally posted by Darsson Spellmaker
As the Sojourner never came into conflict with the Chosen of Mystra, we really can't say what preparations he would have made for such an encounter. We do know that his defensive spells and magics weren't enough to stop a Chosen of Mask (who, magically speaking, is certainly weaker than any of Mystra's champions), though.
While it's true that there is no way to defend against a silver fire beam, keep in mind that the Chosen can only use that ability once every 70 minutes. And no archmage worthy of the name would be instantly killed by 4d12 damage. I know in novels silver fire has been portrayed as an instant death effect (ie., Storm Silverhand killing Shade Prince Escanor with a single bolt, Elminster destroying an entire ring of death tyrants with a blast, or Larloch admitting that one hit with silver fire would be enough to destroy him), but that's the novels. Very different from the game mechanics.
So if your spellmantle-warded elven archmage is battling the Simbul spell-to-spell and she uses her [i]silver fire[i/] beam, you'll take damage, but your elf's defenses are still in place and still apply to everything else she will throw at you for the next 69 minutes.
I read the novels, but I don't play. Thanks for pointing those out, though.
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| Dennis |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 09:25:07
There is? I read and reread Elminster In Hell, and I don't remember any mention of a spell that resists the silverfire.
I remember in RotA, Escanor and the other princes employed spells against Elminster's silverfire, and as a result tore a rift in the first layer of hell. The princes were alive, but severely hurt. So I assumed that their defenses failed. Perhaps I should edit my original post. The spell I mean is that which does not only preserve the life of its caster against the silverfire, but also shields him from harm, and that such spell barrier remains intact, or maybe just slightly chipped, even after the silverfire's assault.
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| Menelvagor |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 08:24:32
I don't think there should be a way to stop Silver Fire. There already is. Mystra forbids over-use of it (as seen even in novels - at the moment, I'm thinking of Elminster In Hell, where Dove tells the Simbul that Mystra forbids what she was doing, until she becomes aware they're fighting the Shadow Weave). And it has unforunate side-effects - tearing holes between dimensions (Elminster In Hell, again), and possibly death (Symrustar Auglamyr in The Fall of Myth Drannor). |
| Darsson Spellmaker |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 06:47:46
As the Sojourner never came into conflict with the Chosen of Mystra, we really can't say what preparations he would have made for such an encounter. We do know that his defensive spells and magics weren't enough to stop a Chosen of Mask (who, magically speaking, is certainly weaker than any of Mystra's champions), though.
While it's true that there is no way to defend against a silver fire beam, keep in mind that the Chosen can only use that ability once every 70 minutes. And no archmage worthy of the name would be instantly killed by 4d12 damage. I know in novels silver fire has been portrayed as an instant death effect (ie., Storm Silverhand killing Shade Prince Escanor with a single bolt, Elminster destroying an entire ring of death tyrants with a blast, or Larloch admitting that one hit with silver fire would be enough to destroy him), but that's the novels. Very different from the game mechanics.
So if your spellmantle-warded elven archmage is battling the Simbul spell-to-spell and she uses her silver fire beam, you'll take damage, but your elf's defenses are still in place and still apply to everything else she will throw at you for the next 69 minutes.
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