| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 21 Sep 2010 : 18:27:01
The Worlds that Outgrew Their Stories: Two Roads to Intellectual Property Success
Great article by the legendary Philip Athans talking about the Realms and Dragonlance settings and their success as Intellectual Properties. Includes interviews with our beloved Ed and Tracy Hickman (and a link to Candlekeep!! ). |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 30 Sep 2010 : 17:07:44
Interesting article. Ed's last words sound like subtle admonishment.
|
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 29 Sep 2010 : 06:25:14
Well, this is off-topic, but since those are direct questions, I'll answer. Apologies to Ashe for hijacking his thread a little.
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Don't you mean the Essential Swordmage: Bladesinger?  
I'm only saying what they've announced, which is that the NWCG includes the "Bladesinger class." Whether that's an essentials version of the swordmage or something else entirely is, at this point, unknown. 
quote:
Originally posted by Snowblood
Oh Goody.....so is there much elf lore....can you drop even obscure hints?????
Well, I can definitely say there IS stuff about elves. And it MAY have something to do with the bladesinger.
Also, hmm, obscure hints . . . I put in *at least* one thing inspired by one of the old school FR computer games. And yes . . . I mean Gateway to the Savage Frontier. (TPK on that part so many times!)
Cheers |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 29 Sep 2010 : 05:44:54
<Posts to cheer Althen up so he doesn't think he's a topic-killer> |
| althen artren |
Posted - 28 Sep 2010 : 23:07:08
Hmm, I killed yet another thread.
It seems when ever I post on somebodys topic,
I am the last one to comment, so all scribes
beware Althen Artren. |
| althen artren |
Posted - 27 Sep 2010 : 23:22:32
wrong Markus, just wrong. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 27 Sep 2010 : 21:51:36
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I for one see signs of a more flavorful direction in regards to lore and description--the Essentials products are more descriptive/flavor-text rich, and I think the Neverwinter Campaign Guide--when it comes out--will provide a LOT of Realmslore for you guys.
I like to describe it as acres and acres of story.
VERY much looking forward to this then.
Got my Ex-wife to agree to buy me the Essentials books, "for the kids".
DAMN, I'm good. |
| Snowblood |
Posted - 27 Sep 2010 : 17:14:43
"Well, I do--but then, I wrote about a third of it. And unfortunately, I can't tell you anything about it . . . other than that it isn't quite like anything WotC has ever done before, it's a LOT of story, and that it includes the Bladesinger class..."
Oh Goody.....so is there much elf lore....can you drop even obscure hints?????
|
| Diffan |
Posted - 27 Sep 2010 : 16:43:18
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
......it's a LOT of story, and that it includes the Bladesinger class.
Cheers
Don't you mean the Essential Swordmage: Bladesinger? |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 27 Sep 2010 : 15:59:16
Oh, the comment wasn't directed toward you, AA--it was general and addressed several comments made earlier.
Cheers |
| althen artren |
Posted - 27 Sep 2010 : 02:52:46
Oh, Erik, Erik, Erik,
I have never been involved in a flame war, except to
make fun of both sides. |
| idilippy |
Posted - 25 Sep 2010 : 03:56:34
Hmm, well that's not much information but I understand you can't say very much about it before it comes out. I guess I'll just have to skim it when it comes out and see what it's like then. I'm interested in it as a source of ideas and inspiration since I don't use 4e mechanics so having a lot of story is a big plus to me. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 25 Sep 2010 : 01:33:55
Lords and Ladies, let's not turn this into an edition wars thing.
quote:
Originally posted by idilippy
On a different note, where can I find more information on the Neverwinter Campaign Guide that's coming out? So far all I have seen on WotC's site is that the planned release is 3rd quarter of 2011. Does anyone know more specifically what it's going to cover(other than Neverwinter, I kinda get that it will cover that)?
Well, I do--but then, I wrote about a third of it. And unfortunately, I can't tell you anything about it . . . other than that it isn't quite like anything WotC has ever done before, it's a LOT of story, and that it includes the Bladesinger class.
Cheers
|
| althen artren |
Posted - 24 Sep 2010 : 21:53:22
Sorry Ashe my friend, but I most respectfully disagree with
you. I must reserve my right to b*%!+. I need an outlet,
not that I need to b&$!# these days since I don't buy anything>
I'll hide thank you
"DA*^ KIDS, get off my lawn! Oh, my Depends just bust!
Wheres my pudding?" |
| idilippy |
Posted - 24 Sep 2010 : 17:53:17
While it's true that a world with absolutely no change would be a bad thing, it doesn't logically follow that change itself is always a good thing. It is possible to change and adapt without going overboard about it. But anyways, this isn't really a thread to debate whether the changes were good or bad so that's enough said by me on that subject.
On a different note, where can I find more information on the Neverwinter Campaign Guide that's coming out? So far all I have seen on WotC's site is that the planned release is 3rd quarter of 2011. Does anyone know more specifically what it's going to cover(other than Neverwinter, I kinda get that it will cover that)? |
| Mr_Miscellany |
Posted - 24 Sep 2010 : 17:43:03
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've read the FRCG cover to cover, and I was most underwhelmed by it.
Try putting on your reading glasses next time?
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
We must all remember that what makes the relams so loved is that so many things has happened and so much have changed. If the realms had been a static world without change, it might very well be a very uninteresting place.
+1. |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 24 Sep 2010 : 15:00:40
Great article...
Cant help thinking about how the world were when I took my first steps in it. Was it a better world, maybe not, but it was "safe" and when I look back its like the christmas from your childhood. One always remember it as being better than then ones you have now. I think its the same for the realms. The "new guys now will look back in 5-10 years and think, that the realms were better in the old days.
I for one do not like what has happened, but still it has. I can either accept it and move on, or moan about it and linger...
We must all remember that what makes the relams so loved is that so many things has happened and so much have changed. If the realms had been a static world without change, it might very well bee a very uninteresting place.
One thing I am curious about thouhg is... I would give my right leg for a chance to sit in on a gaming session with Ed and the Homeland party of players... just to see what has happened in his "own" forgotten realms!
|
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 24 Sep 2010 : 14:26:30
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Any thoughts to the contrary - this silly 'lore-lite' approach - is a deathknell for a setting as detailed, and loved, as the Forgotten Realms.
I for one see signs of a more flavorful direction in regards to lore and description--the Essentials products are more descriptive/flavor-text rich, and I think the Neverwinter Campaign Guide--when it comes out--will provide a LOT of Realmslore for you guys.
I like to describe it as acres and acres of story.
Cheers |
| Jakk |
Posted - 24 Sep 2010 : 06:00:24
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
What I meant was the never-ending stream if FR-specific splats we got in 2e/3e. Although I found a lot of useful bits in the 4e FRGC, I would have liked to see some more elaboration on many of the things sparsely covered therein.
I agree with you there... but detail is out, remember; vague outlines are in. Detail is something campaign-specific to be supplied by the individual DM according to his or her tastes... which means we might as well be running our own worlds in the first place.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As for my 'flash' comment, I wasn't talking about content; sorry, I should have been clearer. I was talking about advertising - when 3e debuted I saw it EVERYWHERE - 4e and now Essentials are both barely coming-in with a whimper (although I have seen a single ad on Facebook for Essentials, so that at least is a step in the right direction.)
WotC doesn't need designers - they need some PR and a fantastic advertising Dept.
I can't argue with that assessment... although I suspect that the PR job would have been a heck of a lot easier two and a half years ago; it was certainly much more badly needed then.
Still, I force myself to remain optimistic; I check the sky daily for flying pigs, and when I don't see any, I check Candlekeep for more interesting events. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 Sep 2010 : 04:24:18
quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Any thoughts to the contrary - this silly 'lore-lite' approach - is a deathknell for a setting as detailed, and loved, as the Forgotten Realms.
Anyone who thinks the post-Spellplague Realms are "lore-lite" hasn't read the FRCG cover to cover. That book is packed with information, just about all of it new.
I've read the FRCG cover to cover, and I was most underwhelmed by it. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 23 Sep 2010 : 22:31:21
What I meant was the never-ending stream if FR-specific splats we got in 2e/3e. Although I found a lot of useful bits in the 4e FRGC, I would have liked to see some more elaboration on many of the things sparsely covered therein.
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Funny you should put it that way... *all* I'm seeing is flash <snip>
I was specifically talking about Essentials in regards to the artwork. I'm not a big fan of the 4e or 3e Eberron artwork, but that seems to be whats 'in' (everything was influenced by the Anime' craze), so they should just find guys who are great at it and go with it.
I like Van Gogh, too, but I don't want to see him on one of my D&D books either. 'Classic' artwork was a bad call, IMHO, considering the main 'target audience'.
As for my 'flash' comment, I wasn't talking about content; sorry, I should have been clearer. I was talking about advertising - when 3e debuted I saw it EVERYWHERE - 4e and now Essentials are both barely coming-in with a whimper (although I have seen a single ad on Facebook for Essentials, so that at least is a step in the right direction.)
Lets see a commercial for Essentials around X-mas time on Cartoon Network, Nickleodeon, Disney, ect...
It is a proven sales-model - show it often enough to children and they will want it (Tickle-me Elmo, anyone?) If kids don't know about it, how the hell are they supposed to ask their parents for it? I want to see a glitzy TV ad that shows kids moving kewl minis around some 3d terrain, and then a cut-away to a cartoon that shows whats happening (in their imaginations), like they do with all those damn bionicles, Hot Wheels, and other craptastic toys they've gotten kids hooked on.
Toys/games do not have to be good - they merely need to look interesting. "If you build it, they will come"... in droves.
WotC doesn't need designers - they need some PR and a fantastic advertising Dept. |
| Mr_Miscellany |
Posted - 23 Sep 2010 : 22:30:42
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Any thoughts to the contrary - this silly 'lore-lite' approach - is a deathknell for a setting as detailed, and loved, as the Forgotten Realms.
Anyone who thinks the post-Spellplague Realms are "lore-lite" hasn't read the FRCG cover to cover. That book is packed with information, just about all of it new.
I like the lore we're getting from Dragon E-zine (I can't call it a "magazine" anymore). Sure I'd like to see more lore published, but I for one don't feel starved, particularly since the whole point of (sourcebook) lore is to supplement the play experience at the gaming table. |
| Jakk |
Posted - 23 Sep 2010 : 22:07:00
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I tried to teach my 8-yr-old the wonders of Black Sabbath last night - War Pigs - and his only comment was 'its loud'. I said "That's early OZZY", and he said "so?"
Kids these days...
However, while trying to find the rock station we passed a top-40 station, and he exclaimed "Hey! That's Emminem!"
Arrrghhhh...
I want to find the rap song I can apply to my D&D sessions - old 60's rock works beautifully - I can think of an adventure every time I listen to that stuff. In fact, I had a DM who's whole campaign was based around Rock Music (he made GH into a post-apocalyptic alternate Earth, with a bit of a Planet of the Apes/Thundarr feel).
Heh... I've never yet heard a rap song that works with D&D, even among the handful of them that I like. I'll agree with you on the classic rock as inspiration... for me, particularly classic metal (Black Sabbath, Iron Maiden), but yes, I've also DM'ed to Led Zeppelin; Pink Floyd works well for me too.
Mark: Give your son time; he'll come around. My DM's wife is a big Rammstein fan, and apparently, so is her 5-year-old daughter.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As for the future, who knows? D&D will only survive if they can generate interest in their current ruleset, and although I am seeing progress in that regard, I am still not seeing all the 'flash' that a new product needs to attract attention. Dated artwork only appeals to grognards.
Funny you should put it that way... *all* I'm seeing is flash, apart from the "about the world" lore bits in the campaign settings; compared with the 3.x cover art, 4E is brighter, certainly more eye-catching, and yet strangely, far less appealing (to me, anyway); and yet, I don't really know why. Even before I looked through the core rulebooks, playtested the rules, and decided it wasn't the game I wanted to play, I was never really enthused by the look of the covers. Maybe I'm just odd...  (Oh, and please don't everybody agree at once on that count...)
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As for the future of FR, that all depends - the Realms NEEDS lore - that is what it was built upon. Any thoughts to the contrary - this silly 'lore-lite' approach - is a deathknell for a setting as detailed, and loved, as the Forgotten Realms. The 'non-setting' thing may eventually work for core D&D, but not for fans of Faerūn.
I'm no longer bitter - I just want them to 'fix it'.
I agree, on all counts. I won't go into specifics; I've beaten that entire team of horses to death, on several occasions.  |
| Markustay |
Posted - 23 Sep 2010 : 20:58:57
I tried to teach my 8-yr-old the wonders of Black Sabbath last night - War Pigs - and his only comment was 'its loud'. I said "That's early OZZY", and he said "so?"
Kids these days...
However, while trying to find the rock station we passed a top-40 station, and he exclaimed "Hey! That's Emminem!"
Arrrghhhh...
I want to find the rap song I can apply to my D&D sessions - old 60's rock works beautifully - I can think of an adventure every time I listen to that stuff. In fact, I had a DM who's whole campaign was based around Rock Music (he made GH into a post-apocalyptic alternate Earth, with a bit of a Planet of the Apes/Thundarr feel).
As for the future, who knows? D&D will only survive if they can generate interest in their current ruleset, and although I am seeing progress in that regard, I am still not seeing all the 'flash' that a new product needs to attract attention. Dated artwork only appeals to grognards.
As for the future of FR, that all depends - the Realms NEEDS lore - that is what it was built upon. Any thoughts to the contrary - this silly 'lore-lite' approach - is a deathknell for a setting as detailed, and loved, as the Forgotten Realms. The 'non-setting' thing may eventually work for core D&D, but not for fans of Faerūn.
I'm no longer bitter - I just want them to 'fix it'. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 23 Sep 2010 : 07:44:35
quote:
Originally posted by bladeinAmn
Re: (3) The way I see it, regardless of what happens in the future, as long as access to the 1e, 2e, and 3e Realms is available, that's always gonna be the thing that people remember about the Realms, despite all the new stuff (bad and good) about the 4e Realms, even where young kids are concerned. This in the same spirit that you'll see more young kids wearing Metallica, Megadeth, Slayer, Iron Maiden, Anthrax and AC/DC t-shirts than you do any metal groups that've come after them; this simply by virtue that those groups old records - and even their new records - are simply that much a better product than what most newer metal groups are putting out.
AC/DC rules! HEHEHE
Seriously though, your last comment strikes home very clearly. |
| bladeinAmn |
Posted - 23 Sep 2010 : 06:28:56
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
*sigh*
Posted this yesterday because it's a really good article and gives insight into three of the great minds in the business. (1) I was a bit afraid that Ed's quotes would be viewed as his disapprovement of Spellplague and changes to the Realms. And I do feel more than a little disappointment that my fears were well founded.
Seriously guys, I don't like what happened any more than anyone else, but is this what we've really become? The old guys (and gals) down the street (2) grumbling about everything and everyone? Yes, Ed and Tracy both put a lot into their worlds and saw a lot of things change that they probably wouldn't have done (or at least not in the way it was done), but decisions were made (and Ed was part of that process) and the world has changed.
I don't know if it's because I took a break from Forgotten Realms and re-immersed myself in the Shadowrun universe, or if it's because I've been enjoying the BattleTech lore that's been coming out, filling in the gaps of their own time-jump. But the step away from the Realms has allowed me to look at things a bit different. No, I'm not a sudden convert to the post-Spellplague Realms, but I do know that no amount of griping about it will change anything. There will be no 'reboot'* with a future edition. The world has been changed. The wonderful authors around here have written some terrific stories after the Spellplague, and the heroes of those stories have the same adventuresome spirit I saw when reading about Kelemvor, Cyric, Adon and Midnight; Arilyn and Danilo; Drizzt, Regis, Bruenor, Catti-Brie and Wulfgar; and all the other heroes that came before.
So, here's where I am: Yes, I will still be debating and arguing and discussing the Realms and D&D as I have before. (3) When I tell my stories to my players in the Realms, they'll be set between 1350 and 1375. I won't be buying the 4E rules since I just like Pathfinder better. On the other side, I won't be railing against Hasbro/WotC anymore. What is written is canon. Future generations of gamers are playing the game now. We are the old guard now. It's time to decide how we accept that responsibility.
So, my fellow scribes, what shall it be? Should we bemoan the changes of the world around us, shutter up the windows and keep those that are of the new world from entering? Or should we, like the scribes of knowledge we proclaim to be, invite them in, sharing in their stories and regale them with our own adventures as those that came before us**?
*The most common use of a 'reboot' by the entertainment industry is to put a new look on the old product so they can simply re-tell all the stories that have been told already. Something I'm getting a little tired of as well.
**Gary and Dave and all of those that were the first generation. For we are but inheritors of their dreams as this new generation inherits from us.
Re: (1) Well, what else could it be? Was Ed bemoaning the discrepancy between the death of someone in one of R.A.'s books and that person's resurrection in the WotSQ series, or showing hurt over things that most Realms fans feel and still feel the hurt over?
Re: (2) Agreed. If all we do is piss and moan about everything (despite having a roof over our heads, good food in our stomachs, and health,income and freedom enough to enjoy our hobbies), then we reduce ourselves to being the type of people who live for being in the audience of talk shows and being swayed by anyone who speaks words akin to our desires, even if it comes from a would-be tyrant.
In other situations, I'd think it wise to not respond as you express dislike for, but I think you saying it in this thread is misguided. When Ed speaks, people who love his Realms as much as he does will tend to listen w/all their hearts. And if he expresses even the slightest hint of regret over what's gone on, then someone is gonna point it out, and others are gonna add their 2 cents, juss by virtue of Ed speaking. And those that don't simply chose not to.
The point is, when Ed speaks, people here are gonna listen. I don't advocate expressing dislike of the 4e changes in every thread, but this is not the case here.
Re: (3) The way I see it, regardless of what happens in the future, as long as access to the 1e, 2e, and 3e Realms is available, that's always gonna be the thing that people remember about the Realms, despite all the new stuff (bad and good) about the 4e Realms, even where young kids are concerned. This in the same spirit that you'll see more young kids wearing Metallica, Megadeth, Slayer, Iron Maiden, Anthrax and AC/DC t-shirts than you do any metal groups that've come after them; this simply by virtue that those groups old records - and even their new records - are simply that much a better product than what most newer metal groups are putting out. |
| Brace Cormaeril |
Posted - 23 Sep 2010 : 04:08:49
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
SNIP
So, my fellow scribes, what shall it be? Should we bemoan the changes of the world around us, shutter up the windows and keep those that are of the new world from entering? Or should we, like the scribes of knowledge we proclaim to be, invite them in, sharing in their stories and regale them with our own adventures as those that came before us**?
*The most common use of a 'reboot' by the entertainment industry is to put a new look on the old product so they can simply re-tell all the stories that have been told already. Something I'm getting a little tired of as well.
**Gary and Dave and all of those that were the first generation. For we are but inheritors of their dreams as this new generation inherits from us.
Little over the top, but I most sincerely agree.
Seize the banner! Hammers High! |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 23 Sep 2010 : 02:59:55
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Oh, the b***chin' comment wasn't aimed at you, but the fanbase as a whole. Sorry for the confusion.
PHEW!
I was beginning to think I was just getting all sensitive and stuff. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 23 Sep 2010 : 02:03:02
All I said was I found it interesting, and made an opinion about the message I felt Ed was getting across, weather that was his intention or not.
"Respect the past, and don't sneer at what has gone before".
You know, like making fun of past editions... which amounts to the same thing as making fun of the people who enjoyed them. Making fun of your customers is a business-model that only worked for Don Rickles.
Ya' Hockey Puck
I offered NO opinion about the 4e Realms or 4th edition D&D, only an opinion about the message Ed was relaying (or at least, what I thought he was saying).
I actually plan to buy and try Essentials, if for no other reason then just to prove a 'new direction' is the RIGHT direction. I've been voting with my wallet, and its time to vote the other way. If we don't give them positive reinforcement every time they do something different, we will continue to get the same stuff, or worse, NO STUFF AT ALL. |
| idilippy |
Posted - 23 Sep 2010 : 00:59:34
Oh ok good, I thought for a second that you were saying we were all b****ing if we said we liked Ed's statement on treating the Realms as a real place and tying stuff together. |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 23 Sep 2010 : 00:26:36
Oh, the b***chin' comment wasn't aimed at you, but the fanbase as a whole. Sorry for the confusion. |
|
|
