| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Markustay |
Posted - 28 Dec 2010 : 18:38:01
so, lets discuss. What do we know about it?
Presumably, it was 'a world without gods'. It also had a silver sky, although that may have only been Returned Abeir (which would be odd).
Here's my take - it is what Toril looked like before the fall of the creator races. It is a more primal version of the Realms, and Draconic entities have taken the place of gods for most of the populace.
I also have a theory that the two worlds weren't as separate as folks once thought - we have several canon examples of portals leading to dinosaur-filled regions. To take this a step-further, I think the world Elminster briefly traveled to - the Saurial 'homeworld' - was actually Abeir! Apparently, it was 'ruled' by huge dragon-like creatures (like feathered dragons). More on this below.
Another idea - back when we (briefly) worked on Maztica on the WotC boards, we had translated the Maztican pantheon into the Draconic one (and the fit was amazingly good). Yesterday, thanks to another thread, I happen to read through parts of RoF, and discovered that the Mazticans used the Draconic alphabet! Coincidence? I think not. I don't think Maztica was 'sucked into' Abeir - I think it just 'went home'! 
Thats right - my new theory is that Maztica wasn't supposed to be in the Realms - it was a piece of Abeir that was transposed long ago. That places some of its lore ('The Ancients', Mica, etc) in a whole new light. It also makes absolute sense, in terms of their mythology - Maztica (their Earthmother) left them long ago.
Also, I have come across several plot-hooks regarding 'ancient, strange elves' (amongst other 'lost folk') appearing in different parts of Toril. Now, these were probably written with the idea that they were Elves that had fallen through a time-portal, but what if they were from a different world? What if that world was Abeir? What if the Road of Stars and Shadows had a few connections to Abeir?
In Ravenloft, there is a group of native-American like people called the Abber Nomads, who are the only people capable of living within the ever-changing landscape of the Nightmare Lands. What if that is a misspelling of their real name? What if they are Abeir Nomads? What if their penchant for 'changing geography' stems from them having lived in a region that was once covered in earthmotes? (similar to the folk in Secret of the Sixth Magic). They could be used to that because they had something similar going-on back on Abeir.
So now I'm getting this picture in my head of a very primitive world, where iron isn't in great use by most cultures (bronze age at best), covered with jungles and wind-swept 'badlands' riddled with earthmotes. Like on Athas, Arcane magic is hard to come by, as is divine magic (their are no deities - only primordials). You may have several cultures that are psionic in nature, and others may have started worshiping 'dragons', just as in Dark Sun (which is actually Abeir canon that they did so). If it worked like in DS, then the dragons would have been going through their own transcendence into 'powers', and able to grant followers spells. A world where dragons have taken the place of gods!
As I have said above, I am getting back to the Saurials: I have decided, due to some odd Malatra lore, that Saurials are NOT non-native to Toril. The exact same four sub-species exist in Malatra (in the Living Jungle), and always have!
My theory on this: Saurials are four other branches of the Sarrukh race. As the Sauroid (that term is canon) creator Race rose to prominence, several distinctive groups emerged. The Sarrukh were probably the ruling class, and also its archmagi (similar to the Netherease). Eventually the sarrukh's politics no longer meshed-well with the other sauroids, and a war of extermination began, which drove many of the non-Sarrukh into hiding (the Saurials). The group in malatra is just one such group of hidden survivors.
And the rest went to to Abeir when the world was split. Just one more thing Ao wanted to separate. Whereas the Sarrukh would all but die-off over the next few millenia, the Saurials thrived in their new world.
So watcha think? I just turned Abeir into 'the Savage Land' - a mostly verdant, primeval world, with dinosaurs and dragon-kings.
Discuss. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| combatmedic |
Posted - 26 Aug 2012 : 11:46:04
Your Abeir sounds pretty darn cool.
Edgar Rice Burroughs, baby!
|
| Markustay |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 19:56:27
I went back through the thread, and didn't find any comments of mine about Hin (although I sped-read through it, and could have easily missed it). I probably meant that the classic 'hobbit' kind of Hin lived in burrows. 'Going to ground'' would be a great way to stay out of harms way. A world with fire-breathing dragons would not be safe for long for races who live in forests, like elves.
BTW, just read your last post in this thread (from before) - I really like that idea about the Dwarves. In my own (Utter East) history I blamed their migration on an 'awakening' of ancient Rakshasa, but I'm loving the idea of some sort of cataclysm causing them to appear in the Yehimals. And we have to remember we are now dealing with two worlds; not every terrain/race swapping event had to have originated on Toril. Something truly devastating may have happened to the Dwarven homeland back on Abeir (which would have manifested as a mere 'hiccup' on Toril).
Perhaps like so much else, the Giants and Dwarves were meant to be separated by Ao. I'd still love to see a RAS, Denning, Greenwood trilogy on them 'discovering their creation'. Of course, I'd want to write the outline. 
EDIT: Also tie it into the Dragons, and why Elves (and the fey) hate Dragons, and how the giants and dragons came to be enemies. It just seems to me there is a really epic tale in there somewhere. The GHotR hints at so many things that we need to know more about.
Also reading The Shadowking ATM. I have always had problems with the Shadevari, and the 3e Shadovar just complicate matters even more. I think some good fixes can be made there, and connections - what if the Shadevari are actually 'shadows' of things that no longer exists? In other words, if a being allows it 'shdowself' to take over (and leave nothing of the original person behind), all that is left is a Shadevari - a creature that is nether dead or alive (and something very close to what the Princes of Shade have become).
As to how this pertains to the thread - I think we can spin the lore in that sidebar in the F&A book (and in The Shadowking) by saying that the Shadevari existed before the Sundering. Ergo, technically all canon statements about them remain correct, without them having to be some sort of 'primordial assassin'. This way, they could even by the 'shadows' of long-dead Sarrukh (or whatever), because the Creator-races existed on the True World, before it was split. This would mean the shadevari aren't as old as we thought (only as old as the sundering, when TWO worlds were created). In fact, I think they might even work better as shadows of different creator races (just because the one was reptillian, doesn't mean the rest have to be).
More thoughts on Shades:
In another thread, we were discussing how Telemont has evolved into something much more then a 'regular shade' - he has become a lichshade (as have the princes). However, he seems to be evolving even beyond that - what if thats the definition of a Shadowking? (we've had several in canon). Unlike a deity who ascends, a shadowking transcends life and death.
Thus, you have power-tiers of Shade, Lich-shade (lischade?), and Shadowking. This concept could be combined with other lore like arcshadows, and maybe even a demi-shade (like Entreri - we need a name for these 'halfies'/crossbreeds). |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 19:29:44
Had all but forgotten 'bout this thread!
Rereading it, some very cool ideas got flung about. Elemental nodes, Deathmotes, Hollow world like locales. Like them all. And aye, the revelation that the weave might be the buffer that holds them apart makes some sense, and can be a great tool to explain oddities in Abeirs or Torils topography.
By the by, why would Hin be good at surviving Abeirs elemental nature? As I mused earlier small size and slow speed is not doing them any favors... |
| Markustay |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 18:46:48
*** Raise Scroll ***
I mentioned this thread in another thread, and decided it as a good time t bring it back. Part of the reason why I created it was to establish previous connections to Abeir in FR (and D&D) canon.
Obviously those connections weren't there at the time old lore was written, but their are enough open-ended plothooks and what-not for us to retroactively make said connections. For instance, Toril has been the victim of several (hundreds?) of 'tearfalls'. What if these tearfalls disrupt the 'veil between the worlds' in much the same way that a Solar Flare disrupts a planet's EM field? That means during each major, catastrophic events, people and places may have been swapped between Abeir and Toril (and other worlds as well).
Discuss. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 17:43:39
Races of Abeir
It is known for a fact that the elven races don't exist in Abeir. However the following intelligent races do live there:
Humans
Dwarves
Halflings
Orcs
Half-Orcs
Giants
Galeb Dhur
Genasi
Dragonborn
Sentient Undead
With this in mind I wanted to explore the origin story of dwarves.
Abeiran Dwarves and their Torillian history
Dwarven myths tell the dwarves first spawned deep in the earth of Abeir-Toril, were they were forged by Moradin in his liking in his mythical Soulforge. The then fought their way to the surface, emerging -battered and bruised but strong in arms and skill- in the Yehimal mountains. From this mountain range they spread in all directions to establish kingdoms and clanholds around the Realms. After the split of Abeir and Toril many clans lost contact with eachother, and the divergent subraces began to emerge.
Some scholars tell they migrated to Toril as many other races did, emerging on Toril and/or Abeir through portals while escaping the cluthches of giant-dominated worlds, and carving kingdoms on the near-surface of the Realms with their skills in warring those big creatures. Fearuns lands that were held by the Giants of that time soon came in decline, as dwarven kingdoms allied with ermergant elven lands and began filling in that vacuum.
The latter theory enables a new theory. Abeiran races seem to lack those races that migrated to Toril through the Feywild. If dwarves are not native to Toril they could possibly be split on the whole to the Abeir part when Ao split the Realms. Perhaps the portals dwarves used originated from Abeir and led to the Torilian Yehimals afterwards? So Abeir could then be considered their homeland, just as it is for Genasi and Dragonborn. The Dwarves could also have been transposed to Toril in an earlier transdimensional shift/collision of Toril with Abeir in a much earlier point in time than the Spellplague.
|
| Erdrick Stormedge |
Posted - 07 Jan 2011 : 13:44:16
Whenst Abeir-Toril was split in twain by the hand of the Overgod, the worlds were identical. In the years which intervened, the both worlds changed much. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 06 Jan 2011 : 00:18:24
quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
Just saw this over on the Realms forums at WotC.
quote:
iakhovas (Brian R. James)
Incidentally, this map [of Merrouroboros] is likely what the twin world of Abeir looks like today, unless it too suffered a world-shacking cataclysm similar in scale to the Sundering.
When I read in the FRCG that Abeir and Toril were twin worlds, I didn’t think that meant geographically in terms of each planet’s continents.
Very interesting concept. I'm wondering if any of Abeir's denizens managed to reshape the face of their world like Toril's did?
Hmmm. This puts a new spin on the concept of geographical transposing that occurred between both worlds during the Spellplague. Though, given that some geographical regions existed on one world and not the other, I'm not as inclined to assume that they are exact geographic twins. |
| Mr_Miscellany |
Posted - 05 Jan 2011 : 23:55:58
Just saw this over on the Realms forums at WotC.
quote:
iakhovas (Brian R. James)
Incidentally, this map [of Merrouroboros] is likely what the twin world of Abeir looks like today, unless it too suffered a world-shacking cataclysm similar in scale to the Sundering.
When I read in the FRCG that Abeir and Toril were twin worlds, I didn’t think that meant geographically in terms of each planet’s continents.
Very interesting concept. I'm wondering if any of Abeir's denizens managed to reshape the face of their world like Toril's did? |
| Razz |
Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 00:29:41
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
I'm not sure what to think of this yet. I'm still trying to get settled over being stunned at how much of the "4E Realms Kool-Aid" you've been drinking lately, Markustay
When one has nothing but Kool-Aid, you either take a sip, or die of thirst. 
Or just become undead |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 02 Jan 2011 : 17:06:54
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Jötunheimr, or Jotunheim, is a ripoff from Norse mythology.
Why the preoccupation with naming things? Things are not defined by names, things don't need any names, things don't need only one name. Deathmote is as good a name as any other.
I know where Jotunheim came from, that's why I said too classic. Its not a major thing (having a different name), but it also makes sense that the giant's didn't call their homeland "the deathmote". Also, if you as a DM wanted to lead the party to have to seek out the giant's on the deathmote and interact with them (maybe the giant's have some other lore the party will need from 200 years back), it'd probably be because they look up some ancient lore and find the name of "insert name of the place". They then have to use some knowledge (history) check and figure out that its "that deathmote that we interacted with the crazed humans underneath 6 levels ago, when they were assaulting our hotel". Again, not a major thing, but it should be named, and I'm not a big fan of totally adopting a classic name whenever its easy enough to come up with something that sounds about right.... but it does give the player that put those points in knowledge history a reason for spending the points (or if they didn't use skill points, they then have to hunt down some sage who DID spend points in that skill) |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 01 Jan 2011 : 18:49:02
Jötunheimr, or Jotunheim, is a ripoff from Norse mythology.
Why the preoccupation with naming things? Things are not defined by names, things don't need any names, things don't need only one name. Deathmote is as good a name as any other. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 01 Jan 2011 : 16:36:34
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
quote:
sleyvas
Oh, for the previous, give the earthmote a suitably giant sounding name "Valhajarliksen" or whatever... nothing comes to mind....
Jötunheimr, of course.
Too classic of a ripoff... but I do like the Jotun part... Jotunharl? Anyway, main thing is to have the players have to actually use their research to find out the real name, because the others they've come in contact with just know it as "the deathmote" (cue spooky music)... |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 31 Dec 2010 : 16:02:34
An idea (from Earthdawn, non-D&D) is that traces of pure elemental matter could be found in the world, usually clustered near ultra-rich gem/metal lodes, oceanic deeps, volcanic cores, mountain tops, etc. These elemental bits are actually alloyed into metals to make weapons that are lighter, armor sturdier, coinage much more valuable - they're also important components in various magics and self-replenishing in nature (given enough time) but incredibly difficult/dangerous to obtain. Just an idea that seems like it might relate to primordials and primitive magics. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 31 Dec 2010 : 15:43:14
I like the idea of the 'deathmote' alot. Especially the blood, bone and spirit magic that those savage nomads could be using. Very low subsistance level human tribes living amongst Abeiran giants and dragons would be easily awed, and subsequently pressured into servitude.
Genasi and dragonborn culture could also rub off on to any abeiran human tribes that border the kingdoms of elemental and dragon based lands. I can see some Genasi teaching a select few humans their architecture, weapons technology, agriculture and swordmage and sorcery styled magic, in order to form them into competant buffers against actual giant and dragon kingdoms.
Geology and ecology of Abeir
Concerning the elemental based geology of Abeir, I thought including unstable regions would fit the landscape and the wiles of powerful elemental beings such as the Primordial Lords are. Most of the continents are stable, seemingly in a stasis for eons, as Primordial Lords are content or indefferent towards those parts. But those areas that hold a special interest for Primordial Lords -because of some form of primordial geopolitics- form the experimental grounds for elemental lords, and are highly contested. The physical shape of the landscape in those areas are probably as morphic to Primordials as some of the homeplanes or domains of Fearunian gods are.
I can even imagine Abeir's underworld having several layers, like and onion, that somehow shift and reallign themselves over time during or bacause of certain Primordial hieracrhic debates/battles. The upper two or three layers are conductive for life, so adventurers can descend into them and encounter an environment ala the Underdark, but with a Hollow World like twist. The further one descends these layers to more pure the elemental properties of the environment becomes. At the inner core the biggest Primordials dwell in primarily energy based sanctums, and influence the outer layers through sending mountains of energy upwards. The most powerful of these energy spikes can reach the surface of Abeir, creating powerful elemental changes in the landscape. Some Primordials would combine their elemental mountains in mutual beneficial alliances, but some use them to battle eachother with highly destructive results.
Such a morphic habitat is not very conductive for small lifeforms, or those that aren't highly mobile of adaptable. I would populate most of Abeir with creatures that ARE able to thrive in the playground of Primordials. First that come to mind are elemental birds of many kinds such as phoenixes, airbased manta, bird shaped elementals (fire-birds; water-birds; rocky birds) and giant owls, giant eagles, rocs and such. Landbased critters are in much better shape of they are large or can burrow, so here mega-fauna (such as giant moose, deer and mammoths), dinosaurs, and all sorts of worms, wyrms and burrowing humanoids might be common. Mechanical lifeforms such as Warforged, Modron or Inevitables could very well be more suited to the extremes of Abeir, as they could readily adapt their forms to the current environmental challenge their habitat poses. Perhaps some organic creatures even adapted to this by becoming half-mechanical (half-warforged?) themselves instead of becoming half-elemental (like the genasi did). |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 30 Dec 2010 : 23:00:48
quote:
sleyvas
Oh, for the previous, give the earthmote a suitably giant sounding name "Valhajarliksen" or whatever... nothing comes to mind....
Jötunheimr, of course. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 30 Dec 2010 : 22:32:37
Oh, for the previous, give the earthmote a suitably giant sounding name "Valhajarliksen" or whatever... nothing comes to mind.... but then have everyone else uses a simple nickname for the place that its simply "The deathmote"... and its always to be spoken of in whisper and with fear lest you draw its attention to your village. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 30 Dec 2010 : 22:22:17
I've been thinking about this conceptual world of Abeir on the way home. This might make for an interesting addition.
Maybe there were 3 cloud giant brothers, and they (along with their whole clan) were charged with protecting "something" from the dragons (what it is doesn't really matter right now). Dragons descended upon the clan on their earthmote floating in the sky, and they killed one of the brothers in their holiest of holy places and took the "something". This cloud giant brother then returned as a ghost sworn to recover that which was stolen and kill the dragons responsible. His brothers took oath that they would see their brother put to his final rest. These 3 giants left their home and worked for decades to try to exact vengeance, and one of the two living (a cloud giant mage) began to worry that he wouldn't live long enough to fulfill his oath to his brother and embraced lichdom. Unwilling to see his other brother die while he still lived, he sought out a vampire and forced him to turn his brother then slew the vampire.
These 3 cloud giants then returned home, only to find the remainder of their clan slaughtered. Using deathly magics, they reanimated their kin, but not as simple skeletons. They used "ancient lore" to instill within them some of their previous intelligence (i.e. they weren't simple automatons, but they weren't exactly the brightest of undead either). They also used powerful magic to gain control over their earthmote.
Soon they descended upon the village that one Dragonlord had gathered around himself. The humans of this village hated the dragon, and the giants turned them to mount a resistance against the dragon and his progeny. The giants also "emptied" the local graveyards creating ghostly undead to lead their assault. The humans recognized some of these undead beings as their great ancestral leaders and proudly worked with the giants to get their vengeance upon the dragons. The dragons were slaughtered and the humans were rewarded with the flesh of their enemies. This begins a tenuous alliance that would be twisted over the generations to its present day form.
In present day, the humans have descended to a level of semi-nomadic barbarism. They move with the giant's on their earthmote, but they actually live in a portable village below it. They typically stay in one place for a few years before moving on, but not long enough to warrant many permanent constructions. The humans have no great skill in metallurgy and typically use stone, bone, wood, and leather in much of their construction. They have also descended to a form of cannibalism, believing that in consuming their enemy they gain the enemies strength. They practice what they refer to as "Blood, Bone, and Spirit" magic, having been taught some ways of magic from their cloud giant benefactors. They have come to revere the giant brothers as almost godlike entities who represent these 3 types of magic (the vampire brother representing blood magic, the lich brother representing bone magic, and the ghost brother representing spirit magic). It is a common practice for these humans to sacrifice their captives (think Aztec ritual sacrifice) in thanks to the giants.
Bone magic is the most common. It is used to make grafts that improve the melee ability of these wild humans, and many of these humans have dinosaur claws, antlers, horns, teeth, etc.... grafted in place to make them more of a threath in combat. Some have even grafted things like the wings of a pteranodon onto their bodies, enabling them to fly maybe. Its also used to reanimate the dead, and its not uncommon for the humans to be seen using undead dinosaurs for various purposes (a stegosaurus pulling a bone plow, or a guard patrol on the village edge riding undead velociraptors). In addition, much of the work of the village is performed by the skeletons of their former captives. Note, it is considered sacreligious to raise one of their own as a skeleton, for such is their ancestor worship that they believe their own dead bodies must return to the earth to free their spirit. They believe that by turning their prey into animated undead, they "enslave" their enemies "spirit" so that he cannot return as an evil ghost to wreak vengeance upon them.
Blood magic is used to enhance the human's ability to fight. They learn to make draughts (potions) that give various abilities and/or which improve their physical fighting skills. Blood draughts that bring on a fury that improves strength, stamina, agility are all common, as are those that give the ability regenerate wounds, generate poisons which can be transmitted by bite, or give some special ability possessed by the blood of the being used (breath weapon, etc...).
Spirit magic deals with working with the dead. This deals with spells which gather information from one's ancestors. It deals with spells which can give the caster the form of a ghost. It deals with spells which can draw upon another's life force and use it to heal another. Most importantly, Spirit magic is used to turn their own dead into incorporeal undead after they've been killed. These undead can "fly" to the earthmote where the giants live, and its seen by these humans as a wonderful gift after they're dead that they can be with "the gods on high".
Obviously, the above is a bit quickly thrown together, but I think it fits this world you're talking about. You've got this twisted group of humans with stone weapons and bony grafts coming off their bodies riding around on undead dinosaurs, horses, unicorns, manticores, etc.... that they've run across. They ride in on a village, slaughter wildly, take captives back to their rudimentary temple, sacrifice them on their altar. Meanwhile, they're protected by a tribe of powerful undead cloud giants who view the humans as efficient tools to help them when they need them (and serve as a buffer while they plot).
So, does this fit in with your version of Abeir? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 30 Dec 2010 : 19:48:14
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Was the world the Orcgate opened onto ever mentioned (by name)? Not that I'm really 'feeling' Orcs for Abeir. I get a whole, different (almost reptilian) vibe from it. As for the sarrukh - they died (except the few survivors we know of). My point was that the existence of the Malatran Saurial negates the fact they are non-native, so I was really thinking those four have a nation somewhere on Abeir. The Sarrukh would have been a fifth type of Saurial, and there were probably others (I believe the novels featuring them did mention that there were other types 'back home'). The surviving Sarrukh probably think all the (other) Saurials are dead, and would probably be surprised to find out they are not (and angry that they did so much better then the Sarrukh themselves).
If the planet had a continuous light and heat-source, and if we factor-in little climactic change (such a world would be without seasons), then my interpretation of a hot and sticky jungle world, with pockets of 'blasted badlands' (earthmotes floating about in dangerous numbers), with cooler (temperate) regions only lying along the coasts, makes perfect sense. Perhaps the waters of Abeir are very chilly, to off-set the constant light and heat form the sky; since Primordial (Elemental) powers are involved, controling the climate in such a heavy-handed fashion sounds about right.
In fact, the war between the Giants and the Dragons may still be going on there (they never had Uluitu or any of that). Or conversely, the Giants may have enslaved the Dragons at one time, and the dragons revolted, and now become the tyrants themselves (so that Giants are very rare, and only live in remote regions).
We could also say that the Shalaran homeland was on Abeir (and I'm aware of the GHotR entry that says otherwise, but I find that to be a really weird 'opportunity missed').
I agree on not linking the world of the orcgate with Abeir. I more like the idea that Thayd and his Theurgist Adepts were researching old Imaskari lore and they simply found the dialing directory to some other crystal spheres, one of which was an Orc world.
I do like the idea too that the Giants and the Dragons are still "at war" per se. Basically, for me, I'd see Abeir as a world where humanity and the smaller races are NOT in power. Maybe they don't even build towns per se, because wandering brontosaurus' tend to trample them.
To take it a little further, maybe the Giants are actually serving some of the elemental type races. For instance, maybe Efreeti have fire giants serving them. Djinn might be allied with kingdoms of cloud and storm giants, all of whom live on earthmotes. Dao and Stone, Hill, and ogres might have some other kingdom, in which they have those dwarves enslaved still. Meanwhile, the frost giants have tried to make it on their own, but they're in a constant war with the white dragons (or maybe in a twist, maybe the frost giants and white dragons have formed their own kingdom working in concert and live by raiding other societies like vikings). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 30 Dec 2010 : 19:21:41
I like this idea a lot (especially that the Saurials were from there). Also makes you wonder like with the tv series fringe.... did those few saurials crossing into Toril cause some crack which started the wheels of the spellplague rolling?
Throw in that Mulhorand and Unther have gone over and their "slavery driven" society (granted they were nicer to their slaves, but they were still slavers).... could be interesting to see if they start gathering slaves who aren't humans.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
so, lets discuss. What do we know about it?
Presumably, it was 'a world without gods'. It also had a silver sky, although that may have only been Returned Abeir (which would be odd).
Here's my take - it is what Toril looked like before the fall of the creator races. It is a more primal version of the Realms, and Draconic entities have taken the place of gods for most of the populace.
I also have a theory that the two worlds weren't as separate as folks once thought - we have several canon examples of portals leading to dinosaur-filled regions. To take this a step-further, I think the world Elminster briefly traveled to - the Saurial 'homeworld' - was actually Abeir! Apparently, it was 'ruled' by huge dragon-like creatures (like feathered dragons). More on this below.
Another idea - back when we (briefly) worked on Maztica on the WotC boards, we had translated the Maztican pantheon into the Draconic one (and the fit was amazingly good). Yesterday, thanks to another thread, I happen to read through parts of RoF, and discovered that the Mazticans used the Draconic alphabet! Coincidence? I think not. I don't think Maztica was 'sucked into' Abeir - I think it just 'went home'!
Thats right - my new theory is that Maztica wasn't supposed to be in the Realms - it was a piece of Abeir that was transposed long ago. That places some of its lore ('The Ancients', Mica, etc) in a whole new light. It also makes absolute sense, in terms of their mythology - Maztica (their Earthmother) left them long ago.
Also, I have come across several plot-hooks regarding 'ancient, strange elves' (amongst other 'lost folk') appearing in different parts of Toril. Now, these were probably written with the idea that they were Elves that had fallen through a time-portal, but what if they were from a different world? What if that world was Abeir? What if the Road of Stars and Shadows had a few connections to Abeir?
In Ravenloft, there is a group of native-American like people called the Abber Nomads, who are the only people capable of living within the ever-changing landscape of the Nightmare Lands. What if that is a misspelling of their real name? What if they are Abeir Nomads? What if their penchant for 'changing geography' stems from them having lived in a region that was once covered in earthmotes? (similar to the folk in Secret of the Sixth Magic). They could be used to that because they had something similar going-on back on Abeir.
So now I'm getting this picture in my head of a very primitive world, where iron isn't in great use by most cultures (bronze age at best), covered with jungles and wind-swept 'badlands' riddled with earthmotes. Like on Athas, Arcane magic is hard to come by, as is divine magic (their are no deities - only primordials). You may have several cultures that are psionic in nature, and others may have started worshiping 'dragons', just as in Dark Sun (which is actually Abeir canon that they did so). If it worked like in DS, then the dragons would have been going through their own transcendence into 'powers', and able to grant followers spells. A world where dragons have taken the place of gods!
As I have said above, I am getting back to the Saurials: I have decided, due to some odd Malatra lore, that Saurials are NOT non-native to Toril. The exact same four sub-species exist in Malatra (in the Living Jungle), and always have!
My theory on this: Saurials are four other branches of the Sarrukh race. As the Sauroid (that term is canon) creator Race rose to prominence, several distinctive groups emerged. The Sarrukh were probably the ruling class, and also its archmagi (similar to the Netherease). Eventually the sarrukh's politics no longer meshed-well with the other sauroids, and a war of extermination began, which drove many of the non-Sarrukh into hiding (the Saurials). The group in malatra is just one such group of hidden survivors.
And the rest went to to Abeir when the world was split. Just one more thing Ao wanted to separate. Whereas the Sarrukh would all but die-off over the next few millenia, the Saurials thrived in their new world.
So watcha think? I just turned Abeir into 'the Savage Land' - a mostly verdant, primeval world, with dinosaurs and dragon-kings.
Discuss.
|
| Markustay |
Posted - 30 Dec 2010 : 08:11:03
Nooooo... Aebrryonas. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 30 Dec 2010 : 07:37:34
Now THAT'S funny!! And might actually fit..... |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 30 Dec 2010 : 05:32:53
Why not just simplify the paperwork and just call it Abeirron? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 30 Dec 2010 : 04:53:44
Ed also (briefly) detailed aspects of the system his Dwarves used in Dwarves Deep.
After looking at the preview guides again yesterday, I realized I was dead-on about my theories concerning a connection between the ancient Giants and Dwarves - their Rune Magic (which is also somewhat detailed in the Twilight Giants series) IS the same magic. The Dwarves actually stole Rune Magic from the Giants. Apparently Stone giants (according to the novels) are the keepers of giant history, and they have their own system of writing (I will look that up, if anyone cares - it began with a 'b' IIRC).
I don't know if I would want the standard Elves and dwarves in Abeir. For the elves, if any, as I have stated I would want a bronze-age (fey-like beings shouldn't be using iron anyway) culture. perhaps even have them be more warlike and not so 'nicey-nice' (since we all know that FR elves aren't really as nice as they let-on, assume the Abeir variety just haven't had as much experience in duplicity). Perhaps even an Aerenal (Eberron's undying) like Elf, although I'm not saying to copy Eberron, but I like their darker, more primal feel (for Abeir). Now that I think about it, we could borrow heavily from Eberron for our model (the whole giant/Dragon schism).
I was also thinking both Athas and Aebrynis. Not only do both begin with an 'A' (I know... thats 'reaching'), but Athas actually makes a great fit - we could stick it anywhere. The name itself could just be regional variant of 'Abeir' (which could have changed on that world centuries past - how do we even know that THEY called it Abeir?), or it could just be the name of that part of the planet (the continent Athas on the planet Abeir). Climatically and thematically its a real good fit, though.
'Aebrynis' is even closer grammatically, but I'm not sure how the lore would fit - some of it seems highly conducive to the 4e setting (considering Rich Baker was one of the folks in charge of both, it makes some sense there was a bit of 'trickle down' from past ideas that were shelved). The 'BBG' approach to D&D that used in that setting fits with the dragon-ruled kingdoms, so its entirely possible that the continent of Cerilia is the 'human homeland' on Abeir.
Once again, obviously this is not 'the way it was meant to be' - I'm just looking for possible ways to flesh-out what little we know of the place. One of the themes here seems to be 'humans and others under the thumb of powerful overlords', and the stuff from both Dark Sun and Birthright fit that theme. Birthright also had a very different magic system, from what little I know of it (which really isn't much - I should really dig further). |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 30 Dec 2010 : 02:34:44
FOR7 Giantcraft describes a fairly detailed system of Jotunbrud rune magic.
"After the disastrous outcome of the war between the dragons and the Jotunbrud, Annam went off in search of a special gift to bestow upon his sons and bolster their might. His epic quest ended almost a thousand years later in ... the plane of Mechanus. There, [he] won the secret of rune magic by defeating a high modron ...
The first runecasters were Annam's sons Nicias (the cloud giant) and Vilmos (the storm giant). Over the course of the next several hundred years, these two masters revealed the secret of the runes to many apprentices, who in turn passed the secret down to the generations to come.
Runecasting is related, though not identical, to the wizardry that is commonly practiced across Faerûn. Indeed, rune magic enjoys some powerful advantages over its more common cousin ..."
HR1 Viking Campaign Sourcebook and (I think) HR3 Celts Campaign Sourcebook also contain rune magic systems, though I'm unsure if they're at all applicable in canon Realms. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 30 Dec 2010 : 00:26:50
Ack! A rather large post got eaten by a seizure of my ail-ridden PC.
I'll reiterate the gist of it...
System for Runic Magic on Abeir
MT's notion that runequests runic magic system could work for the dominant magic system on Abeir got me thinking along the lines that are drawn out in that (excellent) RPG system.
Basicly runic magic can be devided into simple and quick battle magic (4e's at will spells or 3.5's first and second level spells), divine magic (sponsored magics related to perseverance), sorcery (4e encounter and daily's or 3.5's metamagic spellcasting or "greater" versions of lesser spells) and spirit magic (4e's primal powersource or 3.5's summoning and calling spells). All of the above are powered by runes that need to be carried and carved into weapons, tablets, armor or talismans to function as 4e's implements (3.5's foci).
System and conjecture of Pluma magic on Abeir
Pluma magic can be hinged on the same system, but would largely use components instead of implements. The feathers of birds of increasing rarity (pluma) would then be used to create magic that would prove useful to jungle societies. They'd favor spells that assault the senses, create poisons or antidotes, summon aerial guardians or created illusions.
The strong bird and feather theme in this magic could possibly be tied to the Aearee or Avian races, whose early demise might have been because Scaley races depended first on wielding Pluma magic. Perhaps the Sarruhk or Saurials thaught early human populations some of their magic in the hopes of gaining allies against the dragons, and learned them to cannibalize avians for use of Pluma magic.
Feather based magic could also be the first magic that the Aearee used themselves, where the use of their own feathers and their knowledge of them granted them far greater insight into its strengths for magic use. They probably had high magic like expertise in it, but eventually passed some of their secrets to early humans, who quickly took to dealing with the natural birds of Abeir for their source of (lesser) pluma.
|
| Markustay |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 23:29:19
I forget nothing! 
LOL.. that's not true...
But I dd have Pluma/Hishna magic in-mind as well. My posts are already over-long, and I was hoping others would chime-in with ideas of their own.
Going with this Maztica theory, I would say that Pluma/Hishna was a very primitive form of elemental (Primordial) 'magic', that is still practiced heavily in parts of Abeir (the less-civilized regions). I'm picturing an amalgam of native American and Aboriginal customs and beliefs, wherein 'totemic spirits' can be summoned from the 'Dreamtime' (which is actually the untamed portions of the Feywild outside of Faerie-proper). And yeah, I have merged the Beastlands into that part of the Feywild as well (although I should really find out what 4e did with the Beastlands/Happy Hunting Grounds). I don't want this thread to start over-lapping with the Fey one, but my mental map of the Feywild is like concentric rings, very similar to how the Outlands is laid out. The 'Beastlands' would probably be the outer-most layer, and probably would include those Mountain ranges I discussed in the other thread - the home of the Planer giants.
What that does is allow us to have Pluma/Hishna draw from the Fey power source, giving its 'nature' leanings, it makes some sense (IMHO).
Which brings me to another point - the Road of Stars and Darkness, was utilized by the ancient elves, but wasn't created by them. It actually pre-existed the sundering, and was created by the Creator Races. All four were heavily involved with Gate-building, but the only ones who are not really known for it are the Aearee, mostly because their gates primarily exist in the air itself, high above the ground, or on hard-to-reach mountaintops (or on earthmotes )
Planer Conjecture:
The original network stayed on Toril, but a few Gates were transplanted (over-looked?) onto Abeir, and rarer-still are the gate-pairs that had both ends on two different worlds. I propose that these very rare couplings managed to stay active, and were one of the best-kept secrets in The Realms. I would also propose that these should all be Fey-Gates (in origin), because each race wuld have had their own magical traditions, and I could see the fey having built portals that 'tunnel through' the Ethereal Plane, which is really the Dreamtime, which had pieces broken off later to become the Feywild and Shadowfel. Before that, Shadow (nightmares) and Dream were mixed together in the dream-plane, and were 'distilled out' during the sundering, much like how the elements were separated into the Elemental planes (probably at the same time, and you'll note they have now also 'snapped-back' to their original, non-regimented, condition of the Maelstrom). This could also be when the Beastlands became separate from the Dreamtime (which have now returned to their rightful place, in my own homebrew cosmology).
And now back to the topic...
Anyhow, by connecting all that together, and saying Abeir still had access to the Feywild, that gives us a tenuous connection between Abeir and Toril. Most of the (VERY) rare travel betewen the two would have been accidental in-nature, with an 'Enchanted forest' from the feywild over-lapping parts of Toril one day, and parts of Abeir the next (in the same way Ravenloft sends out 'the mists' to grab folk, Faerie uses forests and other sylvan settings in much the same manner). Note the two entries for Gallad's Garden and the Gate of Perdition in the Wilderness guide in The North:quote:
It's a place of warmth, comfort, sunshine, and days of blue, cloudless skies. Creatures once thought extinct roam in vast numbers. <snip> Darnell the Unfearing thinks Shard, and others who have reportedly seen Gallad's Garden, passed through a gate of some kind that leads to a secluded vale in Elysium. But Darnell's theory does not explain that folk living in the Dessarin plains believe Gallad's Garden is designed to hold lost souls whose fate has yet to be determined. Many fear continued searches for the garden are angering the gods. <snip> When he recovered from the fever of his wounds, he claimed he fought the god of the remorhaz.
Also note the isle of Lurath (pg. 62, Pirates of the Fallen Stars):quote:
The primitive world they are now in is ruled not by men or elves, but by dragons.
That enclosed-valley (in a caldera) supposedly leads to a pre-historic time, way back in Toril's past.
Now, if Abeir is a duplicate of that original, pristine proto-world (Abeir-Toril), then it stands to reason that rather then be time-gates (as all of these appear to be, amongst others), they are 'holes' between the worlds; places where The Weave (or whatever keeps them apart) has 'broken down'.
And, once again, all conjecture. Like I said, I am WELL AWARE that none of this lore was originally written with any of this in mind.
Or was it.......?  |
| Marc |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 13:51:56
What if first there were sauroids, then dragons and now's the time of quetzalcoatl, the mythical return of the Aztecs, the evolution into feathered dragons.
fyi I'm not an expert on Maztica or Abeir, or want to be, but didn't you forgot about the pluma magic? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 11:29:44
Thanks Arioch (love your name, BTW).
Ummm... guys... I'm not saying "This is how it is..."
What I am doing is finding random bits of old lore, from multiple sources, that could be connected to Abeir. I'm well-aware that when Nightmare Lands was written, NO ONE was thinking about Abeir. 
This is 'an exercise' in finding connections that were obviously not meant to be at the time they were written. Like those Elves - it is left that way so that the DM could decide where/when they were from (and you just gotta love 1eFR for that).
What I am doing is finding possible connections in past-lore in order to better-establish Abeir as part of the realms we all enjoy, regardless of edition.
Here's another - a long while back Brian James said that the 'crystal mountains' that appeared in Cormyr in his 4e piece were actually the same ones from the Avatar Crisis. What he did there was connect the SP to the ToT, and anchor it in previous lore (which is great). Also, by bringing 'The Redwoods' into the Realms (from Abeir), he fixes a previous lore-glitch which states Giant Redwoods are NOT native to Toril... and yet we had a forest in the Western Heartlands (forget precisely which one) that contained Giant Redwoods (and IIRC, this was discussed in the L-List, or the Q&A here). Now we can assume that those other Redwoods were also transposed at some time in the past, which keeps all canon coherent.
Thats what I'm talking about - we can USE Abeir to fix some things, and answer some questions, and also just make ourselves feel more 'at home' with the whole concept.
I see people's point about there having to be magic, but what I was talking about was Arcane, Weave-based magic. HOWEVER, in retrospect, obviously Abeir had some connection to the Weave, else why would it's collapse cause parts of it to switch with Toril? Somehow, it seems the weave itself was part of the 'barrier' that held the two worlds apart.
Was the world the Orcgate opened onto ever mentioned (by name)? Not that I'm really 'feeling' Orcs for Abeir. I get a whole, different (almost reptilian) vibe from it. As for the sarrukh - they died (except the few survivors we know of). My point was that the existence of the Malatran Saurial negates the fact they are non-native, so I was really thinking those four have a nation somewhere on Abeir. The Sarrukh would have been a fifth type of Saurial, and there were probably others (I believe the novels featuring them did mention that there were other types 'back home'). The surviving Sarrukh probably think all the (other) Saurials are dead, and would probably be surprised to find out they are not (and angry that they did so much better then the Sarrukh themselves).
If the planet had a continuous light and heat-source, and if we factor-in little climactic change (such a world would be without seasons), then my interpretation of a hot and sticky jungle world, with pockets of 'blasted badlands' (earthmotes floating about in dangerous numbers), with cooler (temperate) regions only lying along the coasts, makes perfect sense. Perhaps the waters of Abeir are very chilly, to off-set the constant light and heat form the sky; since Primordial (Elemental) powers are involved, controling the climate in such a heavy-handed fashion sounds about right.
In fact, the war between the Giants and the Dragons may still be going on there (they never had Uluitu or any of that). Or conversely, the Giants may have enslaved the Dragons at one time, and the dragons revolted, and now become the tyrants themselves (so that Giants are very rare, and only live in remote regions).
We could also say that the Shalaran homeland was on Abeir (and I'm aware of the GHotR entry that says otherwise, but I find that to be a really weird 'opportunity missed').
Love all of your thoughts, Gray (as usual).
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
I'm not sure what to think of this yet. I'm still trying to get settled over being stunned at how much of the "4E Realms Kool-Aid" you've been drinking lately, Markustay
When one has nothing but Kool-Aid, you either take a sip, or die of thirst. |
| Arioch |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 09:39:59
I really like your ideas on Maztica, Markustay! I'll certainly use them in my campaigns! |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 08:19:39
Wizbro could market an entire product setting for Abeir, called Forgotten Smlaer. |
|
|
