| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| jordanz |
Posted - 11 Dec 2011 : 02:00:29
You know HUMA the archetypical paladin that is a standard for all that came after him on Krynn. It seems like in the realms Paladins aren't very big movers or shakers. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 16 Dec 2011 : 22:51:07
There are some good questions being posed here. I have a half-dragon(Moon elf) paladin of my own whose ideas of justice and what is "good" or "right" can be very distinctly biased regarding race. Specifically, he has a severe dislike (and frequently voices his mistrust of) his twin sister's choice of mate- a drow bard. (Yes, it is THAT bard of mine...) Much of his clearly prejudiced feelings stem from not only the history of drow in general, but the circumstances under which the siblings met him, as well as that particular drow's family reputation. the paladin was willing to let him be thrown in prison on some very iffy charges, just because he was getting to close to sis, and because he believes drow are all evil. Never mind that the one in questiion had already saved both siblings' lives- and his sister's TWICE. |
| boards |
Posted - 15 Dec 2011 : 21:46:41
I'm a fan of Peirgeron Paladinson as a good Paladin, but my all time favourite person as a Paladin comes from outside of the FR, with Michael the Fist of God from the Harry Dresden novels. He is a genuinely good person who tries to redeem badies but if they don't want it then it is smiting time.
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| Ayrik |
Posted - 15 Dec 2011 : 01:31:53
I was going from FRA, since I consider it the "first" 2E sourcebook (after the "core" PHB, DMG, and MC books). A generic Cavalier kit was presented in PHBR1: The Complete Fighter's Handbook, published later the same year 2E/ToT was introduced. Numerous variations on Cavalier class/kit were published in subsequent years, it was often possible to play a Paladin class with a Cavalier kit. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 15 Dec 2011 : 01:10:14
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Azoun IV was a cavalier, which is somewhere between a paladin and fighter. Armored mounted warrior-type, but no divine abilities.
Kind of like Gareth Dragonsbane, in the old "Bloodstone" modules. He was stat'd as a Paladin (Cavalier), if I recall correctly.
As I recall, Cavalier was one of the character classes from 1E -- I believe it was in the original Unearthed Arcana.
I'll have to look over the modules, again, for that. I'm not sure of how Gareth was described... class-wise.
quote:
Azoun IV was a cavalier, but when that class was removed with 2E, became a simple Fighter.
It wasn't a simple transition, as I recall. Wasn't there a DRAGON article that tried to maintain the spirit of the cavalier for a time into 2e? [I'll probably have to check the DragonDex for that one.] |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 14 Dec 2011 : 20:43:09
Looked it up: Azoun IV was a Cavalier in 1E. Post-ToT 2E he (or his player) would've had to choose whether he would be treated as a Paladin or as a Cavalier-flavoured fighter (a variety of Cavalier-type kit options became available shortly after these conversion rules were written).
Either way, back to topic, I'm not of the opinion that Azoun was a great Paladin who did great things in the Realms. |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 14 Dec 2011 : 20:12:36
A Cavalier is a warrior kit presented in the AD&D sourcebook The Complete fighter's handbook. There is a paladin kit called Chevalier, which is somewhat similar in fluff. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Dec 2011 : 19:10:58
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Azoun IV was a cavalier, which is somewhere between a paladin and fighter. Armored mounted warrior-type, but no divine abilities.
Kind of like Gareth Dragonsbane, in the old "Bloodstone" modules. He was stat'd as a Paladin (Cavalier), if I recall correctly.
As I recall, Cavalier was one of the character classes from 1E -- I believe it was in the original Unearthed Arcana. Azoun IV was a cavalier, but when that class was removed with 2E, became a simple Fighter. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 14 Dec 2011 : 15:30:02
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Azoun IV was a cavalier, which is somewhere between a paladin and fighter. Armored mounted warrior-type, but no divine abilities.
Kind of like Gareth Dragonsbane, in the old "Bloodstone" modules. He was stat'd as a Paladin (Cavalier), if I recall correctly.
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| Marc |
Posted - 14 Dec 2011 : 14:59:45
lord Dhelt of Elturel and the Hellriders |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Dec 2011 : 10:05:54
Azoun IV was a cavalier, which is somewhere between a paladin and fighter. Armored mounted warrior-type, but no divine abilities. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 14 Dec 2011 : 07:17:48
quote:
Originally posted by stephenslate
i would have to say King Azoun IV would be a good choice .
Azoun is more like a fighter (or simply, a veteran soldier) than a paladin. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 14 Dec 2011 : 07:15:00
King Azoun IV remembered as a paladin whose personal faith and abilities greatly shaped the Realms? Arguably true, but it seems a lot like the usual situation where political leaders are automatically (and often unfairly) given full credit for the combined efforts and accomplishments of all the heroes within their great nations. So sayeth the cynic within me. |
| stephenslate |
Posted - 14 Dec 2011 : 06:32:01
i would have to say King Azoun IV would be a good choice . |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 13 Dec 2011 : 21:53:32
@Kilvan: Check out the Book Club here or at the WotC boards for more about Downshadow, or PM me if you have questions. 
Good example, by the way. Not heroic in the least!
Cheers |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 13 Dec 2011 : 16:49:41
I just remembered, the paladin in Thornhold, who kills teenage orcs without remorse and ends up provoking a massacre in an elven village because of it, is a good example of the 'you are evil = it is a good act to kill you' mentality gone wrong. |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 13 Dec 2011 : 16:46:02
I think what is lawful/chaotic or good/evil varies from one faith to another. Burning a library would be an evil act for a paladin of Oghma, even if it saved lives in the process. My next character will be a paladin of Hoar, a former paladin of Tyr who got sick of corruption and social immunity, and I intend to be extremely gray in some areas. He will kill unarmed bandits, but cleanly and without pain. He will leave a torturer in the hands of those he has tortured, he will poison a noble who poisoned his rival (possibly with the same kind of poison), he will backstab an assassin with his own dagger, and so on. He will determine what is 'just', and I expect that it will be too much responsibility for one man (drinking problems are expected).
Off-topic side-note regarding Shadowbane
Funny thing is I just started reading Downshadow this week, before reading this scroll, and I was surprised to see a character very similar the the character I had in mind. It is the kind of character that I like to read about, very well done Erik. Fayne is still a mystery to me, I'm having difficulties to determine what side she is on, her motives and her allegiance (her actual 'ugly' race too). I still have about 75 pages to go, can't wait to see how it all turns out. Oh, and I'm totaly using that dwarven monk in my campaign, he rocks! His anti-Moradin monologue was worthy of a Tarantino movie!
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| sfdragon |
Posted - 13 Dec 2011 : 06:51:23
saw HUma. thought something else.
won't bother with what its not important.
as to the question.
those paladin's already named here in this thread |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 13 Dec 2011 : 02:06:04
Ah, I think I pick up on what you're saying, Wolfhound. (And thank you for your service, btw.)
Cheers |
| Wolfhound75 |
Posted - 12 Dec 2011 : 21:19:53
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
"Forced hiatus," eh? Explain?
A little over ten years ago, a group of individuals decided to crash a couple of aircraft into a couple of buildings. As a result, I've had, what some might consider, a rather busy decade.
I've had a couple of 3.5E, very short-lived groups, but the result is effectively what I said, a "forced hiatus."
Things are slowing down now though...it appears a group of Shadowbane-type characters have managed to eliminate the ringleader.... *grin*
Good Hunting! |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 12 Dec 2011 : 20:55:01
"Forced hiatus," eh? Explain?
Devotees of the modern D&D paladin should check out Paul Kemp's TWILIGHT WAR trilogy, as well as my novels about Shadowbane: DOWNSHADOW, SHADOWBANE, and the sequel (Sept 2012) EYE OF JUSTICE.
If you'd like to read something right now, check out the product page for SHADOWBANE, at the bottom of which you'll find links to a prequel story ("The Last Legend of Gedrin Shadowbane") and an e-novella I wrote about my vilante paladin, Shadowbane himself ("Chosen of the Sword"). Both are free: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Product.aspx?x=dnd/products/frnovel/335130000
Cheers |
| Wolfhound75 |
Posted - 12 Dec 2011 : 19:22:50
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I find that too morally simplistic. Fantasy portrays these creatures as symbolic of evil, rather than as actual creatures, but where does one draw the line? What is acceptable, and what is not?
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
...the ends justfify the means. It's similar to how Shadowbane works, but he's more cloak 'n' dagger and not outright ruthless to evil beings (ie. killing them because you've known what they've done).
Exactly what I was getting at. I think paladins as a whole have been effectively hampered by the notion of, "I'm Good. You're Evil. I kill you now."
Your question is what I, with my probably poor writing, was hinting at with my earlier statement: "I'd imagine it would be a very tough character to play well.... I think it'd be especially fun when you consider that it would present great moral dilemmas and innumerable chances to fall and/or redeem yourself. "When walking through a sewer, no matter how careful you are, you're going to step in a lot of [muck]."
On thinking, I agree with the premise that a paladin should TRY find a way to rise above the current situation but temper that with the idea of "What if this is the best I can do at this moment? How will my deity feel about it?" I think it adds a level of humanity and room for the flawed understanding of mortals for the tenants of their gods. "Do I take this clown out now to prevent their continuing to defile humanity or, wait for a more noble moment?" Am I the avenging spirit of my diety akin to the Christian Archangel Gabriel the Destroyer or am I the pious leader akin to the Archangel Michael? The flawed understanding of mortals also explains the following:
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Ergo, two Paladins can fight to the death, taking two different sides in the same conflict, and both them truly believing they are 'good'.
Food for thought anyway on room to make a paladin not so much of a cookie-cutter type class.
Good Hunting!
Edit: Erik, also sounds like I'd be interested in reading more about Shadowbane. Due to my forced hiatus from gaming for a while, can you give me information on titles and media to catch up on my reading? |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 12 Dec 2011 : 18:43:36
Based on your posts, Markustay and Diffan, I suspect you'd find my ongoing Shadowbane series interesting. You might give Downshadow and/or Shadowbane a shot (and if you've already read them, post reviews on Amazon discussing this concept?). The e-book thing might make it difficult, but PM me if you have issues securing Shadowbane--I'm actually compiling blurbs/reviews and may be able to hook you up with a copy.
The Grey Guard PrC is definitely something that goes into my inspiration--Shadowbane himself is kind of a mix of Shadowbane Inquisitor (the powers) and Grey Guard (the moral "grayness"). Shadowbane isn't meant to be the classic D&D paladin, but rather someone trying to do the right thing in a world where it isn't always clear what the right thing is. He's also meant to provoke a reaction as to whether he's really a good guy or not, and whether his actions and means do indeed justify his ends.
On the subject of paladins being cookie-cutter goody-goods, I think there is a case to be made for certain moral absolutes. The concept of justice, for instance, is an absolute--though exactly how one gets there in a given situation is open to debate. In a fantasy story, Good and Evil are absolutes, but that doesn't mean that a person or creature should be the personification of one or the other. I'm a firm believer in ACTIONS being good or evil, not the ACTORS, as well as stimulis (i.e., your circumstances) and what impact they have upon your future actions and outlook. IMO, a person can't BE good or evil, but is rather defined and shaped by his/her actions and circumstances. And as such, a fully realized character defies such labels as "good" or "evil."
In some respects, Shadowbane is definitely good, and in some, he's not. He isn't afraid to kill when he needs to, nor does he have a problem with bending the law for the greater good. But he always *tries* to do the right thing, and I think the struggle is more important than the label.
Cheers |
| Diffan |
Posted - 12 Dec 2011 : 17:48:27
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I think a lawful good character should always be troubled by murder, whether it's of allegedly good or evil beings, and that he should strive always to be better than the situation allows.
Cheers
+1
As a self-proclaimed Buff on Paladins as a whole, I've found your rendition of the class and characters of that ilk to be quite refreshing. Looking at Paladins from numerious Realms and D&D books, it's been much of the same over the years. For example, Kern Desanea (Pool of Twilight) is much of the same "kill monster now, ask questions later". Even as he starts to grow up with the mentoring of Miltiades, it's almost cookie-cutter in nature. What I'd like to read about is a paladin who's taken the Gray Guard PrC, where the ends justfify the means. It's similar to how Shadowbane works, but he's more cloak 'n' dagger and not outright ruthless to evil beings (ie. killing them because you've known what they've done). |
| Markustay |
Posted - 12 Dec 2011 : 16:49:30
Once again, Erik, your grasp of the 'reality' of fantasy impresses me.
Ed has said it NUMEROUS times - there is no 'black & white', only shades of Gray. 'Good' is whatever your personal beliefs tell you it is, and 'bad' is all the other stuff that your own belief system doesn't abide (which could very well be someone else's 'good').
Ergo, two Paladins can fight to the death, taking two different sides in the same conflict, and both them truly believing they are 'good'.
Which all comes full-circle to my own set of personal beliefs - we judge ourselves. Two paladins can even worship the same god, yet take opposite sides - and it has happened in canon (priests, actually, but basically the same thing). That proves it is NOT what a deity believes is right or wrong, but what the follower believes that dictates where (on the moral compass) the action falls.
In other words, you go to the afterlife you choose, because in the end, the only person you can't lie to is yourself.
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| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 12 Dec 2011 : 16:38:11
Well, fantasy justifies a whole heckuva lot of murder when the victim is "evil" or a member of a "usually evil" race. Wholesale genocide, in fact, is not only allowed to a lawful good paladin but actively encouraged, when we're talking about goblins, orcs, etc.
I find that too morally simplistic. Fantasy portrays these creatures as symbolic of evil, rather than as actual creatures, but where does one draw the line? What is acceptable, and what is not?
I think a lawful good character should always be troubled by murder, whether it's of allegedly good or evil beings, and that he should strive always to be better than the situation allows.
Cheers |
| Wolfhound75 |
Posted - 12 Dec 2011 : 16:15:15
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
He's not the best of paladins, but he's always striving to redeem himself and use his shady past for good.
I've actually run Shadowbane at 3.5 Con games, at which I lie right to the faces of criminals in order to take them down, sneak in rather than kick in the door, and sneak attack as often as I smite.
I've always believed that paladins could be quite a paradox given some latitude in roll playing and a DM who, after discussion about character concept, would give me a chance to justify how the action I'd like to take was lawful and good.
For example, I doubt anyone here, upon hearing the word MURDER would consider it either lawful or good. However, what if the paladin used it as a tool to remove unlawful and evil elements from society. Consider it a sort of Batman-type character or even a Rooster Cogburn-type (But Judge! He needed killin'!) for academic purposes. There is no doubt that he is removing the scum from the underbelly of society and thus, in a fashion, upholding law and good and protecting the citizenry, in accordance with his own understanding of his god/goddess' wishes.
I'd imagine it would be a very tough character to play well and I'd relish the challenge to 'break a leg' as the saying goes. I think it'd be especially fun when you consider that it would present great moral dilemmas and innumerable chances to fall and/or redeem yourself. "When walking through a sewer, no matter how careful you are, you're going to step in a lot of (muck)."
Good Hunting!
Edit: Added color for dramatic effect. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 11 Dec 2011 : 20:34:46
He is rather pragmatic for a paladin, and I like he doesn't hold a terrible fear for falling now and then to get the job done. Awesome character creation there, Eric!
I also liked the way you described his effect on women, he is not lacking for their attention. A good paladin should definately have that effect on them. 
But I do wonder if there is more fiction on paladins. I agree its rather scant, but when its done right it can be a great read! |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 11 Dec 2011 : 19:54:18
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Shadowbane is a gritty version of a paladin with the Shadowbane Inquisitor PrC. He's awesome but not really epic level or anything, and deals largely with the shady underworld figures of the realms; an unglamourous task fraught with dangers he has an intimate understanding of because of his rogueish past.
Thanks for the kind words--that's exactly what I'm going for. He's not the best of paladins, but he's always striving to redeem himself and use his shady past for good.
I've actually run Shadowbane at 3.5 Con games, at which I lie right to the faces of criminals in order to take them down, sneak in rather than kick in the door, and sneak attack as often as I smite.
Cheers |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 11 Dec 2011 : 19:48:29
Shadowbane is a gritty version of a paladin with the Shadowbane Inquisitor PrC. He's awesome but not really epic level or anything, and deals largely with the shady underworld figures of the realms; an unglamourous task fraught with dangers he has an intimate understanding of because of his rogueish past. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 11 Dec 2011 : 13:01:45
Piergeiron. Abelar comes close, maybe. I can't think of anyone else. Not really a fan. I prefer the "fallen" paladins. To me, they're much more interesting than the goody ones. And I don't care whether they achieve redemption at the end or not, so long as the author deliver it well. |
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