| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| bdf1992 |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 00:34:13
What if in the past karsus had instead tried to take Shar's power?
this is sort of just a what if scenario that i might implement in a campaign soon. any ideas?
links are for those who dont know the story or can't remember the details
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Karsus
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Shar
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Karsus's_Folly |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 04:41:16
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Huh? If I'm reading your question correctly, you're asking why Shar and Selūne got together to create Mystryl... And this would be a valid question, if that's what happened. But it isn't. Selūne ripped a piece of herself loose, chucked it at Shar, and it tore something of her loose. And those two pieces became Mystryl.
My question was a response to the "together they created Mystra" part of MT's post. The manner in which MT phrased it made it sound as though they sat together on a hill, their hair caressed by the summer wind, were smiling at each other, then suddenly decided to create a deity of magic as a token of their 'friendship.' Cyric would have been amused.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
See what happens when I try to keep my posts brief? 
 You don't have to make it long. But you shouldn't make it vague, either.
Anyway, I wonder...Was it just arrogance that made Karsus ignore shadow magic and let his then-apprentice Telamont do the research on it instead of doing it himself? Or simply a lack of time, since he was determined to end the 'phaerimm crisis' as soon as possible, which meant completing his Avatar Spell in a very tight schedule?
What would have happened had Karsus actually mastered shadow magic years before the Fall? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 17:04:28
See what happens when I try to keep my posts brief? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 05:18:31
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
What bothers me, though, is that Selune is Shar's 'opposite' - together they created Mystra. It doesn't make sense that Shar is also Mystra's opposite - there is some piece to the puzzle missing.
Why would two enemies do something together that does them no good?
Huh? If I'm reading your question correctly, you're asking why Shar and Selūne got together to create Mystryl... And this would be a valid question, if that's what happened. But it isn't. Selūne ripped a piece of herself loose, chucked it at Shar, and it tore something of her loose. And those two pieces became Mystryl. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 03:12:36
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
What bothers me, though, is that Selune is Shar's 'opposite' - together they created Mystra. It doesn't make sense that Shar is also Mystra's opposite - there is some piece to the puzzle missing.
Why would two enemies do something together that does them no good? |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 19:52:12
-Danillo's tale would only reference terms and concepts familiar to him. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 06:44:50
I think all sentient artifacts (think legacy items with ancestral spirits) actually have a mortal spirit attached to them - its what 'jump starts' the sentience in the artifact itself.
It would work very much the same way as a mortal ascending to become a deity, or one becoming a lich; they undergo a process - during which they die (if not already dead) - and they transform into a new type of being. Only through death can the spirit free itself from the confines of its mortal shell and become something greater (attaching itself to a new source of power).
Ergo, when Shar's Shadoweave was nearing completion, perhaps the final 'ingredient' was a human soul - one belonging to Lessinor. The Arcane Weave needs one to reboot - why shouldn't the Shadoweave need the same?
And for those interested, I found a rather interesting line in Evermeet: Island of Elves the other day, while hunting for something else -
When Durothil and the other Elves firs arrive in Faerun, Durthil has some private thoughts, among which : "Yet the bracing winds felt
alive, singing with magic that was not so different from that to which he had been reared. The Weave was strong upon this new world, and already the young elf could glimpse his own place within the magical fabric. Where there was magic, elves could thrive. In time, this land would become a true home."
Interesting, no? The Elves from Faerie - having never before stepped upon soil in Realmspace - are saying "The Weave was strong upon this new world". This indicates that The Weave was present in Faerie, and therefor in the Feywild, which means the Weave does indeed extend beyond Realmspace and its immediate (Great Tree) cosmology. It also seems to imply that The Weave is present on many worlds, but to varying degrees.
The way I interpret this is that all spheres have something akin to 'The Weave' - that is just the Torillian name for the magical field that surrounds all living worlds. Sort of like the 'soul of the world' itself.
Furthermore, this means Mystra is either far more powerful and important then a mere deity - being all-pervasive - or that she is just the local 'caretaker' of a universal phenomena. I have had similar thoughts about Shar as well (she seems to be the universal Over-deity of shadow when her statue is viewed in the Shadow Temple in the Erevis Cale series).
What bothers me, though, is that Selune is Shar's 'opposite' - together they created Mystra. It doesn't make sense that Shar is also Mystra's opposite - there is some piece to the puzzle missing.
|
| Jakk |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 23:22:01
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Is Mask even a 'person'?
Think abut it - Mystra is the persona of a sentient artifact. Mask - as we know from the ToT - is sometimes a sword. What if the sword is his true form? What if Mask is an artifact Shar created and 'breathed life' into, in much the same way the Weave itself was created?
We know powerful magical devices can have sentience, and we know of at least one that has achieved divinity - Mystra herself. We also know that Shar has created a duplicate of the Weave - her Shadoweave - so we know she is capable of creating this sort of Uber-class artifact.
Or we could just go back to my theory that Mask is Mystra's 'opposite' - the sentience of the Shadoweave itself. 
-That's a good point, regarding Mystra. I don't know if I'd call the Weave an artifact, since it's almost more metaphysical and esoteric than an item in and of itself, but that is all she really is- or, rather became, since she was a mortal at one point.
-Mask, we know from the end of the Twilight War trilogy was a guy named Lessinor (I think; it's been a while since I read any Forgotten Realms book), who was elevated into a divinity by Shar.
And from the final line of that trilogy, we know that (spoiler) Mask has kept a secret from Shar. I think that secret will come out in Paul Kemp's upcoming trilogy, and I don't think that Shar will like it. At least, I'm hoping that she doesn't like it.
Markustay, I like (no, I love) the idea that Mask is the sentience of the Shadoweave... the timeline fits, at least as far as the ending of it... and we don't know exactly when (or from whence) Mask/Lessinor ascended to divinity, so the beginning of the timeline is as vague as the origins of the Shadoweave. But I like the idea that Shar was behind the ascension of Cyric, and therefore orchestrating the Spellplague from the beginning... and Mask in the avatar form of the sword reinforces this; Mask is Shar's lackey, and she wants Cyric to ascend, so at least one deity must die before the Tablets of Fate are recovered; what better way to ensure that than by putting Mask-sword into Cyric's hands? And I agree also that the "Black Chronology" has a rather suspicious starting point... but it makes perfect sense when you bring Cyric and Mask into it and look at what was going on at the beginning of that timeline. The big question now is, what will Mask's return (assuming this is what Paul's next trilogy is gearing up for) do to the powers of both Shar and Cyric?
Edit: @ LK: yes, the present Mystra was a mortal at one point, but her divine essence is that of the original Mystryl, passed on by the first Mystra. Ultimately, when it comes down to the divine essence, Mystra is the same deity that coalesced out of divine energy ripped from Shar and Selune. Or, at least, that's my interpretation. It's all but certain that Mystra 1.0 was the same deity (in terms of divine essence) as Mystryl, and that any replacement for Mystra 2.0 will be the same divine essence as that deity, and there's no reason to assume that the divine essence bestowed on Midnight at her ascension came from anywhere except Mystra 1.0, since Midnight was carrying the remnants of that deity's being inside her. Just a thought.  |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 22:54:54
-All why I am a card-carrying Athar, who attends Godsmen meetings every so often. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 22:53:05
quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
You're a God! Measly mortal magic stands no chance!
The gods are wary of mortals who wield powerful magic.
Some gods even find themselves helpless against the stubbornness of their supposed subjects. The Imaskari Godswall, remember? |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 22:49:46
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Is Mask even a 'person'?
Think abut it - Mystra is the persona of a sentient artifact. Mask - as we know from the ToT - is sometimes a sword. What if the sword is his true form? What if Mask is an artifact Shar created and 'breathed life' into, in much the same way the Weave itself was created?
We know powerful magical devices can have sentience, and we know of at least one that has achieved divinity - Mystra herself. We also know that Shar has created a duplicate of the Weave - her Shadoweave - so we know she is capable of creating this sort of Uber-class artifact.
Or we could just go back to my theory that Mask is Mystra's 'opposite' - the sentience of the Shadoweave itself.
-That's a good point, regarding Mystra. I don't know if I'd call the Weave an artifact, since it's almost more metaphysical and esoteric than an item in and of itself, but that is all she really is- or, rather became, since she was a mortal at one point.
-Mask, we know from the end of the Twilight War trilogy was a guy named Lessinor (I think; it's been a while since I read any Forgotten Realms book), who was elevated into a divinity by Shar. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 22:48:24
Shar isolated one of her personalities, breathed 'life' to it, and set it free to assume a relatively new identity---Mask. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 22:08:15
Is Mask even a 'person'?
Think abut it - Mystra is the persona of a sentient artifact. Mask - as we know from the ToT - is sometimes a sword. What if the sword is his true form? What if Mask is an artifact Shar created and 'breathed life' into, in much the same way the Weave itself was created?
We know powerful magical devices can have sentience, and we know of at least one that has achieved divinity - Mystra herself. We also know that Shar has created a duplicate of the Weave - her Shadoweave - so we know she is capable of creating this sort of Uber-class artifact.
Or we could just go back to my theory that Mask is Mystra's 'opposite' - the sentience of the Shadoweave itself. |
| althen artren |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 21:56:50
You're a God! Measly mortal magic stands no chance! |
| Markustay |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 18:48:14
Sharsus? 
Ewwwwwwww...
Personally, I think when he 'distilled' Raw Magic, he really wound-up with a glop of pure necrotic energy (Pure Evil, like from the excellent Time Bandits movie).
Considering what happened to Wulgreth, it would make much more sense that way. Karsus only thought he had purified 'Weave Magic'.
I suppose Shar may have been first erecting her Shadoweave around that time, and he got a hold of some of it. Then again, I think the Shadoweave might be older then that - anyone have any idea when Mask came about? |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 05:54:10
-Sounds interesting, so if you find it, let me know.
-I would assume she kind of figured he would. Just like we were discussing in the Infernal Library thread, you can't be a evil 'leader' like Shar is, and not expect your underlings to conspire against you. To me, Mask always seemed the cocky type who probably wouldn't even disguise the fact that he was seemingly just waiting for the best place and time to strike, while serving her. I can't think of a specific example in literature/TV/movies, but there are many, and I'm sure you know what I mean. And Shar, being the goddess of secrets, probably appreciated it- maybe that's why she molded him the way he is and 'tolerated' him. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 05:49:21
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-How do you tie that in to what we were talking about, contingencies and such? I'll admit, it's been a while since I actually read the book series, so the details are fuzzy, but she elevated Mask to godhood to serve as a herald of sorts, he went against her back and angered her, and she 'consumed' him as a result, to both punish him and gain his power.
I posted a rather long conjecture about that in one of my threads. I'll try to find it later. It revolves around Shar knowing all along that Mask would one day betray her. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 05:23:54
-How do you tie that in to what we were talking about, contingencies and such? I'll admit, it's been a while since I actually read the book series, so the details are fuzzy, but she elevated Mask to godhood to serve as a herald of sorts, he went against her back and angered her, and she 'consumed' him as a result, to both punish him and gain his power. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 05:19:32
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Considering the end scene of Shadowrealm, I think Mask is also part of her contingencies. Perhaps, he's the sentient link of the Shadow Weave to herself.
-What part, specifically?
When she "embraced"/subsumed him. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 05:06:50
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Considering the end scene of Shadowrealm, I think Mask is also part of her contingencies. Perhaps, he's the sentient link of the Shadow Weave to herself.
-What part, specifically? |
| Dennis |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 02:36:24
Not when you're pointing your finger at a bunch of creatures who possess prodigious amount of magic and who cannot only protect themselves from your meddling but can even hurl your own power back at you. |
| althen artren |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 02:27:41
I always thought Karsus should have targeted Jergal, god of
death. I mean c'mon, point your finger and kill your target
on a god level. NO BRAINER!
|
| Dennis |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 02:25:16
Considering the end scene of Shadowrealm, I think Mask is also part of her contingencies. Perhaps, he's the sentient link of the Shadow Weave to herself. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 01:42:36
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I disagree. I think Shar has (as one of her contingencies) placed an eternal link of the Shadow Weave to herself. She's spent centuries to create that 'toy.' And one can expect that she made sure no one else can use it in the event she dies. She's always been a selfish bitch.
-It's possible, but it's speculation. The little we know about the Shadow Weave, we know it was independent of Shar, so it would have theoretically existed without her. If she had contingencies, fine, but on it's own, anyway, it would have to the best we know. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 01:36:02
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by bdf1992
the reason i'm asking is because shar is thought to be less powerful then mystryl so do you think karsus would have been able to contain her power and not allow shar to cut him off the shadow weave as did mystryl cut him off the weave
-Mystryl didn't cut the Weave off, per se. She killed herself- and, being the Weave incarnate, it briefly disappeared/unraveled/ceased to exist/however you want to phrase it. Shar created the Shadow Weave, but she isn't the Shadow Weave incarnate. If Shar theoretically ceased to exist, the Shadow Weave would have continued to exit.
I disagree. I think Shar has (as one of her contingencies) placed an eternal link of the Shadow Weave to herself. She's spent centuries to create that 'toy.' And one can expect that she made sure no one else can use it in the event she dies. She's always been a selfish bitch. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 01:31:40
quote:
Originally posted by bdf1992
true as it was his "folly" but im talking as he was less arrogant of a man and realized it would be his undoing.
In the context of the story, the main reason Karsus had to target a deity whom he thought was the most powerful in the pantheon was to rid of the phaerimm once and for all, and as quick as possible. Targeting a goddess who's (arguably) less powerful defeats that purpose, or so he thought. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 23:25:27
quote:
Originally posted by bdf1992
the reason i'm asking is because shar is thought to be less powerful then mystryl so do you think karsus would have been able to contain her power and not allow shar to cut him off the shadow weave as did mystryl cut him off the weave
-Mystryl didn't cut the Weave off, per se. She killed herself- and, being the Weave incarnate, it briefly disappeared/unraveled/ceased to exist/however you want to phrase it. Shar created the Shadow Weave, but she isn't the Shadow Weave incarnate. If Shar theoretically ceased to exist, the Shadow Weave would have continued to exit. So, if Shar was theoretically targeted, as far as we know, there really wouldn't have been anything she could have done to stop the spell. If she, like Mystryl, committed suicide as the link was maintained, it's a toss up as to what might happen- maybe the spell would have continued to work, maybe it simply would have ended, maybe something else. The main reason Mystryl killing herself was so important to the end result of Karsus' Avatar was because the Weave stopped working- and it was the Weave that was powering the spell. Lose your internet connection when downloading something, and the download fails, oh well. Unplug your computer while you're in the middle of downloading something, and your files can become all corrupted and messed up. |
| bdf1992 |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 22:25:07
i see what you did there =)
the reason i'm asking is because shar is thought to be less powerful then mystryl so do you think karsus would have been able to contain her power and not allow shar to cut him off the shadow weave as did mystryl cut him off the weave |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 19:21:35
-I would have likely met a similar-but-slightly different fate. Shar, as both a very powerful goddess and a goddess who schemes in secret, likely has some kind of fail-safe in case of her death, similar to how Mystryl/Mystra had/has.
-Being as that the Shadow Weave had only recently been discovered, I wouldn't be surprised if Shadow Weave magic was thought of as being less powerful than normal magic, and thus, Shar (being the possessor of the Shadow Weave) a less-than-optimal target for the spell. |
| bdf1992 |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 01:53:33
true as it was his "folly" but im talking as he was less arrogant of a man and realized it would be his undoing. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 01:25:29
Karsus would not think Shar 'worthy' of his august spell. For him, Mystryl was the most powerful in the pantheon. |
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