| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dennis |
Posted - 06 Jun 2012 : 07:26:24
Phaerimm consume magic as gluttonously as laraken, except shadow magic. Yet they couldn't consume or at least weaken the Sharn Wall, which was composed of magic and not shadow magic... What sorcery did the Sharn use to erect such prison? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 04:05:49
quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
This is probably incorrect as well. Mephistopheles was not at any disadvantage due to the 'type' of magicks in use, but was bound due to his outer planar nature, by specific magicks formulated for that task.
Perhaps. Though, if such were the case, then any accomplished shadow caster could have caged him. Yet, if you can recall, Brennus (who's accomplished enough in the art of shadow magic) could barely do it. Mephisto just brushed off his binding spell as if it was mere cobwebs.
I could be incorrect, though, since Brennus' binding spell was specifically brewed for a different, lesser fiend.
Or, maybe, it's because Brennus is not as attuned to the mythallar (and the shadows that cloak and protect the entire city of Shade) as his father is, who used said device to strengthen Mephisto's binding. |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 20 Jun 2012 : 20:11:20
I'm happy to hear that it is not as bad as it could have been. Tell him to lawyer up. Thank you for being a go-between, I'm sure it matters much. |
| Sightless |
Posted - 20 Jun 2012 : 19:59:44
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
Please give him my best, if you should read this and speak with him.
Consider it done. He should be released from the hospital some time tomorrow. That's earlier than expected. |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 20 Jun 2012 : 07:32:28
Please give him my best, if you should read this and speak with him. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 Jun 2012 : 04:45:37
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
Hi. I'm not Sightless, just his room mate. I know he said he was working on ideas for a magic system and stuff for a guy associated with this thread. He told me who, but I forgot. Anyhow, he's been in a car accident and will be in the hospital for some time. Drunk hit the cab he was riding in. Anyhow, he wont be posting anything for a while.
Please convey to him our wishes for a speedy recovery! |
| Sightless |
Posted - 20 Jun 2012 : 02:07:38
Hi. I'm not Sightless, just his room mate. I know he said he was working on ideas for a magic system and stuff for a guy associated with this thread. He told me who, but I forgot. Anyhow, he's been in a car accident and will be in the hospital for some time. Drunk hit the cab he was riding in. Anyhow, he wont be posting anything for a while. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 20 Jun 2012 : 00:40:10
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I see no reason to assume that either the sharn or the phaerimm have any unique, different sort of magic that they use.
But we know that the same spell cast by different creatures may work differently solely due to their relations with the Weave.
Example: drow used to cast spells on surface as if in a wild magic zone. Once their touch with the Weave was fixed, they just stopped to suffer this effect, without fixing their spellbooks or anything.
After all, if creatures may differ in the degree of ability to use arcane magic, why this property must be one-dimensional?
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
The two forms of Incarnim do react in that fashion, according to a supplement to Incarnium.
YMMV, but IMO best left where it came from. 
As all other Suddenly! Universal! things that make little to no sense in the context to which they get side-glued out of nowhere (like Far Realm), for that matter.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think their spellbattles had a tendency to level the landscape because that's what happens when lots of spells get tossed at once
This was mentioned as a some sort of special case, not just as mass destruction.
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
Now, if you can show me, not laterially, where this can normally happen as a consequence of a simple spell duel, then I can stop considering that some other magical source is involved.
See, that's jumping to a random conclusion. |
| The Hidden Lord |
Posted - 19 Jun 2012 : 20:33:33
This is probably incorrect as well. Mephistopheles was not at any disadvantage due to the 'type' of magicks in use, but was bound due to his outer planar nature, by specific magicks formulated for that task.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
it seems to me, Dennis, that much of what was portrayed in that series is now being down-played, if not outright contradicted by later (superseding) lore.
I'm not certain about that. However, it's clear that the proximity of the source of whatever type magic matters a lot. Mephistopheles was at a disadvantage when he appeared in Shade, for even if he had all the magic of Cania to summon, he was a in place where all shadows answer to Telamont and his archwizards. Similarly, Cale, albeit not as powerful as Telamont, could not call onto shadows when he was in Cania because, as Mephistopheles said, even the shadows in his domain answer to him alone.
In a 'neutral' ground, I'm not sure who and what would prevail...
|
| Dennis |
Posted - 19 Jun 2012 : 20:27:06
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
it seems to me, Dennis, that much of what was portrayed in that series is now being down-played, if not outright contradicted by later (superseding) lore.
I'm not certain about that. However, it's clear that the proximity of the source of whatever type magic matters a lot. Mephistopheles was at a disadvantage when he appeared in Shade, for even if he had all the magic of Cania to summon, he was a in place where all shadows answer to Telamont and his archwizards. Similarly, Cale, albeit not as powerful as Telamont, could not call onto shadows when he was in Cania because, as Mephistopheles said, even the shadows in his domain answer to him alone.
In a 'neutral' ground, I'm not sure who and what would prevail... |
| The Hidden Lord |
Posted - 19 Jun 2012 : 20:05:47
It seems to me that you are clearly incorrect in your assessment, Markustay.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
it seems to me, Dennis, that much of what was portrayed in that series is now being down-played, if not outright contradicted by later (superseding) lore.
The rest of your reply is...interesting.  |
| Sightless |
Posted - 19 Jun 2012 : 20:04:53
Well, they say heavy magic was used to help create the prisen, as in the Netheril: Empire of Magic set. They don't mention anything about colaterial anywhere in thechanging of the land being colaterial damage there. Not once, no where. This evening I'll find the exact section and quote it. After that you tell me. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 19 Jun 2012 : 19:56:50
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
This isn’t collateral damage, which is what you are talking about, this is where two spells are coming together to produce alterations in the landscape. They aren’t the same thing. Sorry, I’ve already considered that and discarded it. Trust me, I’d love a simple explanation, but so far, the only simple explanations I can come up with besides the one that I’ve mentioned that remains logically consistent within the bounds of the information provided, is that it’s a natural consequence of the two spells interaction, but that in of itself is a very poor explanation, as it leaves the conclusion with a hanging negation that requires an additional premise.
And before any says magic seems to follows it’s on rules, all of Ed’s descriptions of magic indicate that’s a perfectly logical system. That’s part of the marvel of what he created in the relms, but that’s another topic altogether. So, we’ve returned to the issue at hand, coming full circle and either have it being some product of the weave, heavy magic and all, as described in the relation of Incarnim and so forth; or, we have two highly complex magical sources that require further logical explanation as to how their natural combining, cause landscape alterations.
Where is it written that it was anything other than the clashing of opposing spells? We have no lore that indicates sharn or phaerimm have unique magic, and we do have lore indicating that BOOM + BOOM = destruction, regardless of the source of the BOOM.
There is nothing to indicate we are looking at anything more than collateral damage, so I see no reason to assume it's anything else. |
| Sightless |
Posted - 19 Jun 2012 : 19:05:38
This isn’t collateral damage, which is what you are talking about, this is where two spells are coming together to produce alterations in the landscape. They aren’t the same thing. Sorry, I’ve already considered that and discarded it. Trust me, I’d love a simple explanation, but so far, the only simple explanations I can come up with besides the one that I’ve mentioned that remains logically consistent within the bounds of the information provided, is that it’s a natural consequence of the two spells interaction, but that in of itself is a very poor explanation, as it leaves the conclusion with a hanging negation that requires an additional premise.
And before any says magic seems to follows it’s on rules, all of Ed’s descriptions of magic indicate that’s a perfectly logical system. That’s part of the marvel of what he created in the relms, but that’s another topic altogether. So, we’ve returned to the issue at hand, coming full circle and either have it being some product of the weave, heavy magic and all, as described in the relation of Incarnim and so forth; or, we have two highly complex magical sources that require further logical explanation as to how their natural combining, cause landscape alterations.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 19 Jun 2012 : 18:53:46
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I see no reason to assume that either the sharn or the phaerimm have any unique, different sort of magic that they use. I think their spellbattles had a tendency to level the landscape because that's what happens when lots of spells get tossed at once -- and keep in mind, in 2E the phaerimm could get to 30th or 40th level as wizards! Even a single phaerimm, tossing spells in anger, is going to give heart attacks to any local real estate agents.
There's no need to assume any kind of unique magery when the sheer amount of magical energy being tossed about explains things quite well. Even a tweaked off level 15 human wizard can rearrange the local landscape.
Yes, but they just aren't engaged in beautification, at least as far as I know it. The information I've encountered states that's it's the two magics interacting with each other that's causing the change in landscape. Now, if you can show me, not laterially, where this can normally happen as a consequence of a simple spell duel, then I can stop considering that some other magical source is involved. And no, the argument of power along doesn't sufice, as increase in intensity doesn't necesity an alteration in the quality of magical interaction.
It's not the magical interaction, it's the normal effects that lightning bolts and meteor swarms and such have on the local landscape. In other words, when a lot of BOOM is being tossed about, it affects more than just the opposing spellcaster. |
| Sightless |
Posted - 19 Jun 2012 : 18:26:22
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I see no reason to assume that either the sharn or the phaerimm have any unique, different sort of magic that they use. I think their spellbattles had a tendency to level the landscape because that's what happens when lots of spells get tossed at once -- and keep in mind, in 2E the phaerimm could get to 30th or 40th level as wizards! Even a single phaerimm, tossing spells in anger, is going to give heart attacks to any local real estate agents.
There's no need to assume any kind of unique magery when the sheer amount of magical energy being tossed about explains things quite well. Even a tweaked off level 15 human wizard can rearrange the local landscape.
Yes, but they just aren't engaged in beautification, at least as far as I know it. The information I've encountered states that's it's the two magics interacting with each other that's causing the change in landscape. Now, if you can show me, not laterially, where this can normally happen as a consequence of a simple spell duel, then I can stop considering that some other magical source is involved. And no, the argument of power along doesn't sufice, as increase in intensity doesn't necesity an alteration in the quality of magical interaction. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 19 Jun 2012 : 18:17:28
I see no reason to assume that either the sharn or the phaerimm have any unique, different sort of magic that they use. I think their spellbattles had a tendency to level the landscape because that's what happens when lots of spells get tossed at once -- and keep in mind, in 2E the phaerimm could get to 30th or 40th level as wizards! Even a single phaerimm, tossing spells in anger, is going to give heart attacks to any local real estate agents.
There's no need to assume any kind of unique magery when the sheer amount of magical energy being tossed about explains things quite well. Even a tweaked off level 15 human wizard can rearrange the local landscape. |
| Therise |
Posted - 19 Jun 2012 : 17:24:39
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
The two forms of Incarnim do react in that fashion, according to a supplement to Incarnium.
Don't forget... any "lore" from general (core) supplements isn't automatically part of Realms lore. Realms lore is often quite divergent from core rules supplements.
|
| Sightless |
Posted - 19 Jun 2012 : 11:23:33
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Phaerimm consume magic as gluttonously as laraken, except shadow magic. Yet they couldn't consume or at least weaken the Sharn Wall, which was composed of magic and not shadow magic... What sorcery did the Sharn use to erect such prison?
Methinks, you start with a wrong assumption. Phaerimm don't consume magic like laraken, disenchanter or even gauth. If they absorb spells hurled at them, this doesn't mean they can take an enchanted halberd or something and slurrrrrp it into a mundane object.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Given what that quote by Wooly says, it would appear that Sharn magic reacts to Phaerimm magic the same exact way Arcane magic reacts to shadow magic (and vice-versa).
But with Weave vs. Shadow Weave - in rare cases when effects containing raw magic (not much of these) meet, create rifts or ripples. With Phaerimm vs. Sharn - normal spells meet, reshape landscape. How it's the same?
And if it reacted the same way, Phaerimm could hurl spells throug Sharn Wall at least as often as not due to tenuous interaction.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Now we know the Phaerimm couldn't possibly be using shadow magic, so does that mean the Sharn are using Shadow magic? Or is there a third source of power?
...also, it's Sharn vs. Phaerimm only. Spells of all other Weave users aren't said to interact with either in any special way.
The two forms of Incarnim do react in that fashion, according to a supplement to Incarnium. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 19 Jun 2012 : 06:36:52
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Phaerimm consume magic as gluttonously as laraken, except shadow magic. Yet they couldn't consume or at least weaken the Sharn Wall, which was composed of magic and not shadow magic... What sorcery did the Sharn use to erect such prison?
Methinks, you start with a wrong assumption. Phaerimm don't consume magic like laraken, disenchanter or even gauth. If they absorb spells hurled at them, this doesn't mean they can take an enchanted halberd or something and slurrrrrp it into a mundane object.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Given what that quote by Wooly says, it would appear that Sharn magic reacts to Phaerimm magic the same exact way Arcane magic reacts to shadow magic (and vice-versa).
But with Weave vs. Shadow Weave - in rare cases when effects containing raw magic (not much of these) meet, create rifts or ripples. With Phaerimm vs. Sharn - normal spells meet, reshape landscape. How it's the same?
And if it reacted the same way, Phaerimm could hurl spells throug Sharn Wall at least as often as not due to tenuous interaction.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Now we know the Phaerimm couldn't possibly be using shadow magic, so does that mean the Sharn are using Shadow magic? Or is there a third source of power?
...also, it's Sharn vs. Phaerimm only. Spells of all other Weave users aren't said to interact with either in any special way. |
| Quale |
Posted - 18 Jun 2012 : 12:37:31
Look at sharns abilities, they can create hex portals out of the ethereal, I thought the magic of the sharnwall was actually some kind of spatial manipulation to mislead the phaerimm and block teleportation. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 18 Jun 2012 : 12:16:48
Maybe it was 'shadow' that Pandora let loose from her box.
One's 'pristine' soul represents all that is good in Man(kind), and 'the shadow' represents all the world's evils. Pure evil is darkness, and pure good is radiance, but somewhere in the middle lies the mortal soul, forever battling with its shadow.
They aren't two separate things - they are two sides to the same coin. You can no more be rid of your shadow then you can be rid of your sense of self. In fact, 'shadow' may be the requirement for 'free will' (which lawful good outsiders, such as Angels. would not have).
'Good' without the choice to do evil is worthless - maybe this is why mortals must have a dollop of shadow (to start with). |
| Dennis |
Posted - 18 Jun 2012 : 05:19:08
It does that, and more. It also devours the other self, its opposite. Depending on how well the caster can control his shadow, he may end up being the shadow itself. If not for his friends, Galaeron would have completely lost it, upon Melegaunt's subtle goading. |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 18 Jun 2012 : 05:11:11
Perhaps it creates the shadow self, the absence of the caster? |
| Dennis |
Posted - 15 Jun 2012 : 07:31:36
True, one need not be evil to use shadow magic. But this very type of magic affects its caster like a drug affects an addict. It's, well, addicting, and brings out the worst in one's personality. Aeron, Galaeron, and Cale are prime examples of such. |
| Sightless |
Posted - 14 Jun 2012 : 01:00:17
(From Tomb of magic)
THE PLANE OF SHADOW
The Plane of Shadow neighbors and overlaps the Material Plane and many of the others as well. It is a dark, twisted reflection of the real world, made all the more alien by its nagging similarities. Color is a faded memory, bleached from the world and replaced with shades of gray. The sky is an endless vault of black, with neither sun nor stars to break the gloom. Emotions are as muted as colors -- love and hate, joy and sorrow, mirth and mourning are all less potent, less expressive. Only true needs -- hunger, thirst, exhaustion, and pain -- remain undiminished. Bring all the light you like; it will not shine half as brightly as it does in the darkest night of your own world.
The Plane of Shadow is the literal shadow of the Material Plane, cast not by any light but by the mystical energies that hold creation together. The domain contains twisted reflections of everything that exists in the physical realm. Mountains rise from the earth, but they are perverse and foreboding. Structures stand clustered into communities, but they are warped and often worn.
The most twisted of all areas are the Darklands scattered throughout the Plane of Shadow. These stretches of land are infused with negative energy. They suck life from those who travel them. Desolate, bleak, and forlorn, the Darklands are the most inhospitable terrain in a harsh realm.
It is only natural to consider the Plane of Shadow lesser than the Material Plane. After all, it is merely a reflection of "true" existence, a shadow distorted by the angle of the light and the movements of the world. It is simple image without substance. A rare few understand a deeper truth, however. Shadow is sculpted in the endless darkness. Carved from the only force that is truly eternal, it has a greater meaning, and a greater existence, than the physical world itself. Rather than the Plane of Shadow poorly reflecting the Material Plane, the plane of light and substance is the ephemeral reflection of all-encompassing shadow.
THE METHODS OF SHADOW MAGIC
Shadow magic is subtle and indirect. It involves two fundamental principles of mysticism.
SYMPATHY
Like affects like. If a caster controls a thing similar to, or related to, a target, the mage controls the target itself. Spellcasters of certain cultures take advantage of this principle with dolls shaped like specific people, or by stealing a lock of hair or an item of clothing belonging to their intended targets. Shadow magic takes this concept much further by taking advantage of perhaps the greatest example of sympathy. By manipulating the shadows of individuals, the caster can control their minds, their souls, and even their physical forms.
REFLECTION
For every action, an equal and opposite reaction exists. The reaction is not visible in most forms of magic. The wizard who casts a fireball into the midst of his enemies neither sees nor cares about the brief amount of flame that vanishes from the Elemental Plane of Fire to power that spell. The cleric who heals a dying friend knows that her god is a being of such might, he scarcely notices the energy she draws from him. Shadow magic does not hide these effects, but rather uses them, creating strength from weakness, substance from emptiness, and dark from light.
LESSER SHADOW MAGIC
Shadow magic has its lesser but far more familiar cousins. Casters of shadow magic scoff at those who believe that these feeble magics represent the limits of shadow. In truth, they barely scratch the surface.
Darkness and Related Spells: All spellcasters tap into the Plane of Shadow when creating darkness. They draw extraplanar shadows to them, for no shadow of the Material Plane is strong enough to displace the light. Comparing these manipulations of shadow to those practiced by shadow magic users, however, is as comparing a child playing with rude clay to the skillful efforts of a master sculptor. Others can only force shadow through the planar boundaries in fixed amounts; the shadow master can manipulate ambient lighting as a bard manipulates sound.
Shadow-Based Illusions: Several spells of the illusion school draw on shadowstuff to add an element of reality to their images. Swords seem to cut, lightning to burn. Yet these are no more real than any other illusion. They are shadows of shadows, merely skimming the tiniest amount of substance from the dark plane. Shadow magic casters understand that they need not settle for semireal images. They can create true items, as solid as anything found on the Material Plane.
Negative Energy: The association of negative energy with shadow is in fact a false one, although many of the wisest scholars -- and even some shadow magic users -- continue to make it. The propensity of mortal minds to associate the symbolic with the real causes most people to think of positive energy as "light" and negative energy as "dark." The reasoning proceeds -- if negative energy is dark and shadow is dark, they must stem from the same source. In truth, shadow and negative energy are separate cosmic forces, although they attract many of the same entities and can be used to accomplish some of the same effects. When a shadow magic caster draws the life or strength out of a foe, however, she is funneling the foe's essence into the Plane of Shadow, replacing it with less animate shadows. She need not manipulate negative energy, any more than evil clerics manipulate shadow to control undead.
Shadowdancers: Not all who manipulate shadow do so through intense study and arcane formulae. A rare few grow so close to darkness, they brush the edges of shadow on an instinctive level. Shadowdancers pierce the borders of the Plane of Shadow when they make use of their abilities, even if they remain ignorant of that fact. To date, shadow magic casters have been unable to determine what it is about shadowdancers that grants them this innate link to shadow, but it is an area of intense study and debate within their various societies and organizations.
LEARNING SHADOW MAGIC
The secrets of true shadow magic are difficult to learn, for only a rare and jealous minority possesses them. The majority of such lore can be found in the hands of a few specific organizations, such as the Tenebrous Cabal, and knowledge seekers must petition them for access. Although a few ancient libraries and lost ruins contain tomes of shadow lore, these are usually insufficient for readers to become shadow magic casters simply by perusing them. At best, they might point in the direction of other, more useful sources. Some religious sects and temples also possess writings and lore regarding shadow magic. The priesthoods of many dark gods study the Plane of Shadow, believing it to be an aspect of their deity's power.
As a matter of self-preservation, these groups seek out those who show both an aptitude for magic and a desire to delve into the mystic. With varying degrees of ritual, they share the secrets of the multiverse and shadow magic with a desirable applicant. Because it requires a devoted, disciplined mind to master shadow magic, for it is alien in ways that other magics are not, these groups approach potential recruits infrequently and accept petitioners even more rarely. Still, for those who prove themselves both capable and devoted, access to these organizations opens up an entirely new understanding of magic, of eternity, and of reality itself.
Now, from this alone the following can be derived quite easily, I shall leave the symbolic forms out and stick to plain English:
First, one might not be necessarily evil to wield Shadow magic; second, whatever, or by what process the shadow weave came into creation, and while it is considered a mirror of arcane magic, it is not antipathetic to that form of magic. Given this, some other magic that is not shadow most comprise this sorce. While I hypothesize Necrocarnim to fill that role, it’s only a hypothesis. I shall conjecture more later.
|
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 14 Jun 2012 : 00:41:03
Maybe magic is just like Kool-Aid:
All the same except for which color die you use. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 13 Jun 2012 : 21:35:31
it seems to me, Dennis, that much of what was portrayed in that series is now being down-played, if not outright contradicted by later (superseding) lore.
I doubt very much shadow magic has more power then 'hell magic' (although the two are probably related to death, somehow).
I also think 'hell' and divine' magics aren't even in the same spectrum - they are on the other axis of the Alignment wheel. Then again, 'light' and 'shadow' don't even fit the other axis either. Perhaps they are on the same axis.
So there should be 'divine' (radiant/light) energy, and Maleficium (dark/shadow) energy at each end of the LG vs LE axis. That means 'shadow' and Hellish' magic are just flavors of black magic.
Thats still doesn't work right - light and shadow should not be opposites! The demonweave should be drawing power from the chaotic end of the alignment wheel, not the evil end. If anything, the term 'shadow' should be applied to what we consider normal arcane magic in FR (magic 'in the middle' of all others - a blend of all four).
Hmmmmmmmm.... maybe it has to do with the pentacle...
Arcane magic is the perfect blend of elemental (prime material) energy, and Shadow is the perfect blend of Alignment power, ergo both sit at the apex of a different five-pointed star. In other words, both are composed of equal amounts of four other sources of power/energy. That would make them counterparts of one another, and in a strange, psuedo-scientifc way opposites as well.
Now I just went form two (simple) sources to eight - possibly ten - complex sources. This stuff is giving me a headache - I need to corner Ed at a Gencon and get some real answers.  |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 13 Jun 2012 : 13:49:33
Perhaps some wizards, perhaps a lich who is also very powerful and is a supra-genius has been trying to work heavy magic for centuries, perhaps this same lich is also helping Mystra get back on her "feet" so to speak... |
| Dennis |
Posted - 13 Jun 2012 : 03:29:05
The stuff of Hell itself is not necessarily beyond shadow. It all depends on who wields it. Mephistopheles was powerless in Shade, bound like a dog by Telamont and his archwizards. The Lord of Eighth had all the means to summon all energy from his domain, but all that had been suppressed by the Most High's shadow magic. Had the situation been reversed, had Telamont been in Cania, there's a big possibility he'd have a difficult time summoning shadow magic. Still, the former example (from Shadowrealm) shows that energy from Hell does not always cancel shadow magic. |
| Sightless |
Posted - 13 Jun 2012 : 03:00:36
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Shade princes are a dime a dozen - who has time to remember their names? 
Given what that quote by Wooly says, it would appear that Sharn magic reacts to Phaerimm magic the same exact way Arcane magic reacts to shadow magic (and vice-versa).
Now we know the Phaerimm couldn't possibly be using shadow magic, so does that mean the Sharn are using Shadow magic? Or is there a third source of power?
And 'Heavy Magic' is just banned to the general public - I'm pretty sure Silver Fire is the same thing (only Karsus managed to somehow congeal it into a plasma-like state). Both operate 'above' the laws of Arcane and Shadow.
This discussion, BTW, now has me thinking about something thats been bothering me a long time, and now with the Rise of the Underdark storyline, I have to wonder if I'm not the only one who noticed the problem.
'Shadow' is a halfway point. It is neither light nor dark. It is not the end of the spectrum at all, which means there has to be something 'beyond' shadow magic. Could this be the 'Demon Weave' referred to in the blurbs?
Could Shadow be all Shar could take back? Is there something buried deeper beneath The Weave? Something behind those 'spaces' shar got access to?
To my way of thinking, there is a major missing element (at least one) to the creation myth - Shar could not have started out the goddess of Shadow; Shadow can't have existed without light. That means before the (first) sun, Shar needed Selune. I don't understand why she would destroy the sun when all that would do is continue her dependence upon her sister.
On the other hand, can light exist without darkness? If there was no darkness, light would be meaningless. Ergo, both sisters had to have been 'born of the darkness'.
There is something missing there - there has to be another element (energy/being/whatever) that we haven't been told about. Just as there is a power beyond Arcane, there has to be a power beyond Shadow. Hopefully, we will find out more in this RotU storyline.
It is my understanding that the limitation was just for the creation of 12th level spells, and some of the finer points of magic. Upon listening to the Ad&D material that came with the box set, I can’t find anywhere that it states that she made it impossible for Wizards to summon heavy magic. I use the word summon here, as that is what it sounds like was done by the Arcanists. If that were the case, Incarnets in the relms would be an interesting explanation, even given what is in MOI. 'Heavy Magic' is the same as soul magic, or incarnim, there are relms sorces that say so, as well as it follows from my own argumentation. If both sides are using this kind of energy, then the reaction would be similar to Arcane and shadow magic, but only more considerable. To me it would make since that the Sharn might have wielders that can iinfuse their spells with Necrotic energy. This is the power that is beyond shadow, it is the stuff of Hell itself. It would make since that Lolth would want to gain the power of this. Torturing souls seems right up her alley. It is by the way the direct opposite of the weave, which is the stuff of all life, it is the worped tortured reaility of life. It’s as close to damnation magic as I think they ever got in the relms. This power may also be what’s powering the primordial character of the abbess |
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