| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Gyor |
Posted - 21 Jan 2013 : 18:44:30
What role should demigods play in 5e?
Traditionally Demigods have been more accessible then higher Gods. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 25 Feb 2013 : 16:42:38
Personally, I have no problem with "whatever term you want to use for it, but individuals who are imbued with some of a gods power" (i.e. chosen, exarchs, Saints, Magisters, whatever) being in the campaign and would like to see them as examples of deities extending their power to earth without invoking an avatar.
However, I'd also like to see a FEW demi-gods. I don't mean this in the classical, birthed from a god terminology. I do mean it as an immortal being who has through SOME means raised him up to immortal ranks WITHOUT the aid of a god. He/she/it should be able to grant spells much like avatars did during the time of troubles, but only within a certain distance of himself. These beings should only be in remote areas of the realms and not have a separate realm in the outer planes. They should show extreme favoritism to their clergy. Their faiths should only be at most a few dozen generations old. Most importantly, these beings should be killable. So, like the Uthgardt tribe that worshipped the dragon... that dragon should have some powerful abilities. The followers of these types of beings should always be "tribal" like with little interest outside their own realm.
I'd also like to see some demi-gods who ARE the classical "birthed from a god", and Dalor Darden gives the perfect example with Xvim. I also wouldn't be upset if some powerful gods instead became earthbound again. For example, If the gods return to Unther and Mulhorand, maybe it should be the god's manifestations and their god-kings again (noting that the Mulhorandi gods were only in the outer planes of Faerun for what..... 28 years?). If a reason needs to be made for this, well, their outer plane that was in relation to Toril was destroyed (or unlinked from Toril). They need to gather enough "worship energy" to rebuild their "outer plane" or rebuild its link to Toril, or whatever. Main thing, for at least a few centuries, the Mulhorandi Gods are back to what they were before the ToT and they're having to be very protective of their empire. Along these lines, maybe Gilgeam is somehow returned as well, but he's deposed and he and Hoar make an alliance (because I wouldn't mind it if Hoar is also a demi-god who is earthbound). The one big difference here would be that the clergy receiving spells from THESE beings should be able to work world wide, and even within the outer planes directly associated to Toril.
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| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 25 Feb 2013 : 03:38:01
I have two different groups that are "Demi-Gods" in my own Realms.
First are Hero Gods...mortals who have obtained an immortal spark somehow. These folks are much like Kelanen and Murlynd from Greyhawk...mortals; but not mortals at the same time. Legends really.
Second are Demi-Gods...scions of a God and a mortal/demon or whatever. These folks are like Xvim; so they have never been mortal, but then they aren't really gods either. From Greyhawk, Iuz would be in this group as well; but only because his father was a VERY powerful Demon Prince.
These two groups are just as powerful individually as the other; the only difference being that only Demi-Gods can actually grant spells to worshipers, while Hero Gods might have Cult Following...but unless they work with another god to get their worshipers spells, those worshipers just go without. I sort of add gods like "early Velsharoon" in this group since he had to initially have the support of another god (and I'm refusing to say it was an Orc God all along!). |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 25 Feb 2013 : 01:39:55
Not sure if I'm going to entirely answer the OPs question but in my homebrew I divide deities into Minor/Lesser/Major/Greater gods. I don't like the classification Intermediate for a god because it seems somehow counter-intuitive to me and my classifications seem more sensible to me.
What most refer to as demigods (in reference to the game rules) I instead call minor gods. Instead, demigod is a term reserved solely for a being who was both a mortal and a divine (or divine "type" of) parent. They may or may not be immortal but are NOT gods and cannot grant spells. In 3e terms they would have a divine rank of "0" (although I don't use that system) and are on par with other semi-divine beings such as Mystra's Chosen (and Saints, quasi-deities, etc).
I actually struggle with the use of gods in my homebrew. Like the myriad races in the game I sometimes feel the Realms is overrun with deities. And yet, I actually like the idea of regional deities of every stripe and color under the sun.
So, to try and answer the OPs question. Minor deities are just that...deities...complete with their own home planes, temples, priests and followers in the Realms. They walk the world a bit more than the other gods (the better to increase their following). But, I dont have them directly ruling over any cities or kingdoms unless they are VERY new to their divinity and are in the process of transitioning power to another while they attempt to move on and establish themselves in Pantheon. I actually didn't care for the Pharonic Pantheon ruling Mulhorand in a direct sense...though their avatars doing the ruling is fine. |
| Zireael |
Posted - 23 Feb 2013 : 09:48:04
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
I'd use them as 'living' legends, as they are mostly from mortal origin. They are usually found walking the grounds of Toril every once in a while even if they already own a personal domain in the astral planes near Toril. Their relationships with their divine peers makes demigods quite hesitant to directly influence the lands of Faerun. Their singular avatars are likely to sire aasimar or tiefling children among the populace in this phase of their divinity.
Good examples of this mentality can (or could) be seen in Drasek Riven, Gwaeron Windstrom, Bast/Sharess, Selvetarm and Gargauth.
That's what I'd do too. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 24 Jan 2013 : 21:19:37
quote:
Chosen of Asmodeus
... Chosen can be "unchosen" pretty much at any time, but they can also be lifted up and given the rank of exarch, or awarded such upon their death.
I think each Chosen/Exarch/Proxy/etc is effectively unique. It may be impossible for Mystra's Chosen (and Magisters) to ever resume their lives as mortals, while Mask's Chosen might need to somehow escape from the shadows, Tyr's and Torm's Chosen might yield their tenures after fulfilling their contractual duties, Waukeen's Chosen might need to haggle for their lives.
I think the deity can elect to demote their Chosen any time, but I wonder what happens when the Chosen has actually become a sufficiently established element of the faith that it can be sustained independently. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 24 Jan 2013 : 21:04:46
You have to look at a couple different sources to get the full picture here; the 4e player's guide, dm's guide, FRPG, FRCG, and Divine Power, but it basically breaks down like this.
Under 4e definitions, exarchs and Demigods are essentially the same thing. The difference is that an exarch is subservient to a more powerful deity where as a demigod is independent. They are often, but not always, chosen from mortal races who've attained great power(reached epic levels), whether humanoid or monstrous. An exarch is expected to serve a greater deity more or less for eternity in their divine realm. They're the champion of their armies, the majordomo of their dominion.
Chosen are mortals selected by the gods to carry out tasks for the gods on the mortal plane and are given various powers, depending on the deity and their particular needs for their particular task, to carry out that task. Chosen can be "unchosen" pretty much at any time, but they can also be lifted up and given the rank of exarch, or awarded such upon their death.
The primary difference between chosen and exarch is that chosen serve in life on the mortal plane, where as exarchs serve in the divine realm. A chosen becoming an exarch is a reward for a job well done, not a necessity. When the FRPG said "There are no chosen that are not also exarchs", what that meant was that all the chosen from before the time skip- Fzoul, Obould, etc, had died and been raised to the level of exarch in the interim. The idea was that the only chosen would be the player characters, should they reach epic levels and choose the Chosen epic destiny for their characters.
Of course, with the revelation that Elminster and a couple of the Seven Sister's were still alive, just depowered, that turned out to be not entirely true. |
| The Madmage |
Posted - 23 Jan 2013 : 14:42:05
I always equated the Exarchs to be similar to Proxies from the Planescape setting. Beings that had a direct channel to their god and could be considered to be speaking in its stead. |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 23 Jan 2013 : 14:15:17
I don't like the idea of Chosen being exarchs or demigods. I'd much rather see them as unique, powerful individuals, like a wizard or priest with a few special abilities. Elminster may be able to stand toe to toe with a demigod, but I think it steals something of his character if he were to be labeled as one. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 23 Jan 2013 : 04:26:04
All I know is that the gods who were demigods (and some lesser deities, IIRC) were labelled exarch in 4e. And yes, technically, demigod is half god. Like one parent was divine (Greek myth is full of this), or they obtain some semblance of godhood, like Selvatarm. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 23 Jan 2013 : 01:35:15
I like that idea, Sage. Exarchs/Chosen/Proxies might be much like artifacts or deities in the context of each being a completely unique entity, have more individual traits than common traits when compared against others.
No two Chosen are completely alike in terms of power; they each have some "special gifts" or abilities which sets them apart. Exarchs seem to be completely variable, half of them are monsters. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 23 Jan 2013 : 01:20:39
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The way I understand it, the term 'exarch' is/was an 'umbrella term' that covered EVERYTHING between mortal and truly divine (deity) status.
Which was one of the main gripes people had with it.
It was so broad as to become meaningless when it was used for everything from the heroic tier gardener mowing the lawn of the main temple to the epic tier demigod equivalent.
Eh. I tend to think a lot of folk place entirely too much emphasis on the actual term of a particular ranking like "Exarch" and/or "Chosen." Just because that's how they're defined in terms of the rules... doesn't necessarily mean that's how they should be described in the setting Realmslore. It's just been an unfortunate circumstance that these ranking terms are used in the lore because it makes connecting these characters with the rules much easier.
Personally, I'd prefer the terms "Exarch" and "Chosen" to remain solely as rules-related elements, and have the setting lore reflect actual specific terms for them based on local cultural and/or historical trends. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 23:39:46
Exarch and Chosen don't bug me so much. Proxy does.
It's not so much about the terminology, using different words is no big deal. It's about the ambiguity and complete lack of definition or consistency behind the terminology. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 20:58:35
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The way I understand it, the term 'exarch' is/was an 'umbrella term' that covered EVERYTHING between mortal and truly divine (deity) status.
Which was one of the main gripes people had with it.
It was so broad as to become meaningless when it was used for everything from the heroic tier gardener mowing the lawn of the main temple to the epic tier demigod equivalent.
Kinda like the term Chosen.  |
| Mirtek |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 20:34:14
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The way I understand it, the term 'exarch' is/was an 'umbrella term' that covered EVERYTHING between mortal and truly divine (deity) status.
Which was one of the main gripes people had with it.
It was so broad as to become meaningless when it was used for everything from the heroic tier gardener mowing the lawn of the main temple to the epic tier demigod equivalent.
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| Markustay |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 14:20:28
The way I understand it, the term 'exarch' is/was an 'umbrella term' that covered EVERYTHING between mortal and truly divine (deity) status. While demigods are the best-known group that got lumped-in, there were also Chosen, and other 'agents' of powers (like archangels), and also Fiend lords.
For a few years now (before 4e) I have been using the term 'Tezu' - a word in some Ancient Celestial proto-tongue - to define that power tier. For me, 'Exarch' is just another word for something I had already envisioned. I also use 'Tanar' to describe elemental beings of the same power-level (and I have lots of - probably obvious - suffixes and prefixes to further define them).
So if silly mortals have decided the new 'buzz word' for these types of beings is 'Exarch', so be it... it doesn't effect me, or the games I run, in the least. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 11:15:33
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Wasn't the term exarch created for 4e?
The term existed elsewhere. It was adapted by WotC for 4E. |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 06:24:07
Wasn't the term exarch created for 4e? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 06:12:19
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
So basically exarchs are equivalent, in power terms, to Chosen?
Well, the FRCG [pg. 72] states that "The post-Spellplague world includes no Chosen who are not exarchs."
Make of that what you will.
...
I think it's important to note that a Chosen may ascend to the position of an Exarch. Creating new Chosen is still possible, and they don't necessarily have to be an Exarch -- it's just something they might eventually come to. However, judging from that FRCG quote, the current lot of Chosen have obviously ascended to the rank of Exarch. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 05:08:31
I prefer my exarchs to be somewhere between mortal and demigod. Mystra's Chosen would be a good example. For demigods, I prefer that they remain as they were in prior editions: immortal entities with a portfolio and the ability to cast spells. |
| Gyor |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 04:53:56
Exarchs are equilvant to everything including the Kitchen Sink, Exarch of Martha Stewart :p
As for Brian James he did a good a attempt at making sense of it, but other sources like Divine Power contradict him.
I say just let the term die or at least make it a footnote and go back to the consistant and easy to define terms like Demigod. |
| jordanz |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 04:36:03
What about the sons of Annam? Progenitors of the Giant races, Somehow I don't see them as full Gods- more like demi Gods yet they should have been full Gods since they were spawned from two Gods.... |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 04:24:44
So basically exarchs are equivalent, in power terms, to Chosen? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 04:06:01
From the original and unaltered "Year of the Ageless One" article on Wizards:-
quote:
The exarchs are often called demigods or heroes, and many are ascended mortal servants of greater gods, brought up from the world to serve as agents of their divine masters. Many, but not all, attract worshipers of their own, and they have some ability to grant spells, but are more often simply conduits from the mortal world to the attention of the higher gods.
Additionally, Brian James confirmed pretty early one that exarchs [just as demigods were in previous editions] are immortal. |
| Gyor |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 03:49:47
Demigods are half mortal and half God in D&D, but a half a God is like being half a supernova. The Mortal part means they're more approachable, understandably, relatable then full gods, who are more conceptual in nature, and more Alien in mind set.
QuasiGods are more like Superheroes, they have the blood of Gods enhancing them, but its so work they're not Gods at all, hence why they have no Divine Rank and can't grant spells.
Think of it this way, imagine Gods are like a T-Rex, Demigods are a half T-Rex and half Human Hybred, and a Quasi God is just a human whose recessive genes became active enough he grew scales.
As for Exarchs, those where one of the worst ideas of 5e, because no one what they were for certain, were they Demigods, Saints, random lt. Of the Gods, other stuff? No body knew for sure and 4e material was contradictory and confusing.
Also confusion over whether they could grant,spells or not.
On top of that they added Exarchs that weren't part of the Pantheon of the World Chart in the novel and other sources adding more confusion.
Use the term Demigod, Saint, and Quasigods instead for there respective beings instead of Exarchs so people actually understand what your talking about.
Plus an Exarch is actually from the Russian,Othodoxy Church and has no relation to any of this and while White Wolfs Mage Game has Godlike Exarch's, it not the same, and will only add confusion.
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| Firestorm |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 03:24:36
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I'd like to see more demigods in 5e, but weren't they "exarchs" in 4e?
Wasn't Exarch a level below a Demigod and onyl Quasi Divine? Like a 0 Level divinity? While Demigods were level 1-5.
I want the Mulhorandi pantheon back!!! |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 03:13:16
I've seen exarch used to indicate an order between mortal and demigod, what 3E people might call "quasi-divine rank 0". |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 02:59:44
My mind is stuck on planescape Demigods where they are Powers and still superpowerful compared to a mortal. (Like Kiaransalee ruling an infinite plane of the abyss, etc. ) Although I would prefer they use the term "minor" or something since "Demi" means half, doesn't it? A demigod should be like a Bhaalspawn or Iyachtu Xvim. |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 02:46:48
I'd like to see exarch not used in any form. It's not an intuitive word. Demipower or demigod works well enough so why change it? I'd also like to see a slew of demipowers added to the Realms for small cults, different takes on other deities etc. I mean who wouldn't want to see a few new goblin-kin or dwarven deities? Everyone's heard of Khedrun's Vale so maybe there's a demipower or heroine who has a following etc. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 00:15:32
They were only "Heroes" in AD&D 1E. Perhaps more accurately called "Super Heroes", same as other characters except for some perks (at least one stat 19+, no class or dual-/multi-class restrictions, sometimes a special/unique skill or power of some sort, often some kind of other-planar bloodline, typically small army of followers/worshippers) ... another way of saying they were basically standard 3E characters in 1E, pretty powerful but not really demigods. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 00:02:24
I'd like to see more demigods in 5e, but weren't they "exarchs" in 4e? |
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