| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 15 May 2013 : 01:54:16
Am now taking bets on 5e gods
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 03 Nov 2013 : 17:50:31
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Well, that will never happen.
How can you be a fan of FR, and hate gods? The setting is pretty-much built around them. 
I don't personally like deities being so 'in your face' as they have been, and hopefully that will be lessened come 5e.
Hopefully 5e will be a compromise where the gods will still be around to some extent, for those who like them (such as myself), but won't be so prominant, for those like you, Markustay, and Dennis. |
| Drustan Dwnhaedan |
Posted - 02 Nov 2013 : 16:44:07
I never had any issues with Midnight/Mystra, either. And like Wooly, I would list her (or Mystryl/Mystra in any of her incarnations, for that matter) among my own list of favorite deities, although the one I like the most will always be Eilistraee. (I really, really wish she returns...) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 02 Nov 2013 : 03:55:10
I, too, had no issues with Midnight/Mystra, and would readily list her among my top 20 fave deities of the setting. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 02 Nov 2013 : 03:20:15
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Not all of us disliked Midnight, I liked her very much, still I agree I believe its a hybrid Goddess of Magic.
Indeed.
The former mortal Midnight is/was a small part of Mystra's divine spiritual body, like the submerged pilot of a massively greater consciousness. We have a good picture of this in some of Ed Greenwood's fiction. |
| Gyor |
Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 17:50:34
Not all of us disliked Midnight, I liked her very much, still I agree I believe its a hybrid Goddess of Magic. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 16:28:10
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Well, that will never happen.
How can you be a fan of FR, and hate gods? The setting is pretty-much built around them.
That's like asking, "How can you be an FR fan if you hate 4E?"
And no, I don't hate the gods. I just don't care for them as a whole. There's more to the Realms than the gods. I eat what I can swallow. Also, most of the characters I like (the reason I keep reading many of the novels) either don't believe in gods or dismiss them as mere spirits they can traffic at will. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 15:04:56
Well, that will never happen.
How can you be a fan of FR, and hate gods? The setting is pretty-much built around them.
I don't personally like deities being so 'in your face' as they have been, and hopefully that will be lessened come 5e. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 14:18:47
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Anyone else have any ideas about how we can spruce-up the pantheon? 
Killing Mystra for good. Or better yet, rid of the whole pantheon entirely. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 14:15:50
In another thread, I had suggested getting us some new names for deities that had RW names. Zehir could easily be Set(Seth) in disguise, but the other that jumped to mind was Tyr. In that thread, i had suggested a new, 'blind god' version of him.
Perhaps this post may have been better in Erik DeBie's 'fixing the Realms' thread (or whatever that was called), but I think that we could use some of the disparte lore to come up with col new takes on things.
I was thinking about a 'blind justice' version of Tyr (with a shiny new mithril hand), and my thoughts were that it be a mortal who had found a relic of Tyrs and brought a vestige of the god back through fanatical devotion. So as I thought more on this, we wouldn't want a god to be actually blind, so....
The mortal who found the relic was born blind. Either he would have no eyes at all (going for a gruesome Pharasma-like visage with that one), or he would have Spellscars over his eyes (still somewhat gruesome, but less so). Using Spellscars would tie us into the 4e era/material, and would also explain why he can still 'see' despite not having eyes. The Spellscaring would allow echo-location (a'la Daredevil), and after finding Tyr's holy relic (perhaps some sort of helm?), he is finally able to truly 'see' the world for the first time.
He ascends (a decade or two before 5e hits), and is a demi-power at first, but is working his way back up the ladder (to re-take Tyr's old spot eventually). Thus we get Tyr back, but also something new, and we finally lose another RW god name from the roster.
I have several ideas for his look - it would be pretty cool. Other gods may even underestimate him, because he still appears blind.
Anyone else have any ideas about how we can spruce-up the pantheon? |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 21 May 2013 : 18:01:56
Honestly, I would like to see magic split up among different gods, and it be a federation like it is done in dragonlance, instead of one giant god, that has any other alignment besides true neutral like GOND.
Yep there you have it..
Gond should be the next diety of magic, and we will now have eberron in 5e, with our magical steampunk. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 May 2013 : 14:22:24
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Venger
quote:
They don't need to slap a ton of power onto a single mortal and call it a day.
But... they already do. "I like you, so here're some Paladin powers. I like you, too, so here's the ability to bring people back from the dead and incinerate up to 400 people to death at once." Being Chosen is just another different kind of power that deities can give out to their worshippers, particularly those who're most important to them for whatever reason.
And the churches are hardly made irrelevant. Is Elminster treating and overseeing the thousands of Mystran worshippers across Faerun? Nope. He's working on his particular missions for Mystra. The church performs a different task than the Chosen. The Chosen is one or maybe a handful of champions of a god with particular duties while the Clerics of the church have other duties, mostly ministering to the faithful. They're not made irrelevant because they're not doing the same thing.
Personally, I'd like to see this not expand beyond Mystra's Chosen (and that because its already so canon that it would hurt the world to extract it). The goddess of magic personified imbuing magical gifts on her chosen also makes more sense than it would with say other deities.
For Chosen of other deities, I'd prefer their abilities be more informative OR perhaps "simple" ability boosting. For instance, a Chosen of Tempus might have their strength enhanced whenever he calls upon Tempus x times/day and maybe an additional feat. A Chosen of Oghma should get an ability to maybe perform a knowledge check a second time once/day and perhaps some additional skill points to be spent in knowledge skills.
Chosen should be seen by the church as people "touched" by their god, but touched in a way that's not the same as a clergyman is (though clergymen could be chosen). However, these chosen are simple servants, and this divine grace can disappear a year later (and in many cases doesn't necessarily last the entire life of the mortal).
Now, can a god imbue even more power into a mortal? Sure, its your campaign. I'd just recommend against it. Gods can reward mortals in other methods.
Oh, and to make clear, any "NEW" chosen of Mystra shouldn't be imbued with all the power given to the "OLD" chosen of Mystra. The old are this special case where they were in essence battery packs that drew in power from the weave. Any new chosen of Mystra should get some special magical powers, but the whole package... not so much. For instance, if they get silver fire, maybe it doesn't have all the functionality of the original silver fire (maybe it just cures XYZ, maybe its just damaging, etc...). They shouldn't be immortal, but maybe they do age a slight bit slower (adding an extra 20 or 40 years would seem enough). Maybe they lose the whole "anytime someone says my name I hear the next X words" ability. That's still some amazing abilities, and maybe different chosen get different features. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 May 2013 : 14:11:17
quote:
Originally posted by Venger
quote:
They don't need to slap a ton of power onto a single mortal and call it a day.
But... they already do. "I like you, so here're some Paladin powers. I like you, too, so here's the ability to bring people back from the dead and incinerate up to 400 people to death at once." Being Chosen is just another different kind of power that deities can give out to their worshippers, particularly those who're most important to them for whatever reason.
And the churches are hardly made irrelevant. Is Elminster treating and overseeing the thousands of Mystran worshippers across Faerun? Nope. He's working on his particular missions for Mystra. The church performs a different task than the Chosen. The Chosen is one or maybe a handful of champions of a god with particular duties while the Clerics of the church have other duties, mostly ministering to the faithful. They're not made irrelevant because they're not doing the same thing.
Personally, I'd like to see this not expand beyond Mystra's Chosen (and that because its already so canon that it would hurt the world to extract it). The goddess of magic personified imbuing magical gifts on her chosen also makes more sense than it would with say other deities.
For Chosen of other deities, I'd prefer their abilities be more informative OR perhaps "simple" ability boosting. For instance, a Chosen of Tempus might have their strength enhanced whenever he calls upon Tempus x times/day and maybe an additional feat. A Chosen of Oghma should get an ability to maybe perform a knowledge check a second time once/day and perhaps some additional skill points to be spent in knowledge skills.
Chosen should be seen by the church as people "touched" by their god, but touched in a way that's not the same as a clergyman is (though clergymen could be chosen). However, these chosen are simple servants, and this divine grace can disappear a year later (and in many cases doesn't necessarily last the entire life of the mortal).
Now, can a god imbue even more power into a mortal? Sure, its your campaign. I'd just recommend against it. Gods can reward mortals in other methods. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 May 2013 : 13:47:37
quote:
Originally posted by Venger
quote:
My issue with using a deity's powers in such a way is that it elevates someone outside to a privileged status for that deity.
Why is that a problem? Not everyone in a god's faith has to fall within a hierarchy. And you yourself answer your own question later on in your post: Elminster, the Simbul, etc. don't take precedence over the head of the church, so why would the same be true of any other faiths?
For instance, going back to Joan of Arc, one could consider her to be the equivalent of a Chosen. That, however, doesn't mean she suddenly supplants the Pope. The Chosen of Mystra, though, fulfill multiple roles, and one of them was to advance and preserve the Art. Likewise, other gods would have their own Chosen who advance and preserve their own tenets, because the gods will always have uses for people who operate outside of a churches hierarchy, and for those they deem most worthy, why not rewards them and grant them status as Chosen?
Interesting example, but should Joan of Arc have gone before the masses and told them they needed to sack some city that was favored by the Papal states for their support, but Joan wanted the city sacked because they were allowing English shipping to occur.... who would the people follow? Both have been given "visions" by god, have they not? |
| Aldrick |
Posted - 21 May 2013 : 09:33:19
Two points.
1. While it is hilarious to imagine a paladin of Torm acting in such a manner, and a tiny part of me would love to see such a thing happen; I'm not sure if that is the case for the Realms. I understand that this is true for the 4E Core D&D rules. However, it was also true for the 3E Core D&D rules to allow clerics to draw power from philosophical beliefs and not deities. However, that was not the case in the Realms. In fact the 3E FRCS makes this explicit:
quote:
Faerunian clerics function as described in the Player's Handbook, except that no clerics serve just a cause, philosophy, or abstract source of divine power. The Torilian deities are very real, and events in recent history have forced these divine beings to pay a great deal of attention to their mortal followers.
All clerics in Faerun serve a patron deity. It is simply impossible for a person to gain divine powers without one.
While I can't say with 100% certainty that 4E doesn't go the route you suggest, I'm not aware of anything that says otherwise. If I'm wrong feel free to tell me where it states that this is the case.
As this is a major change from previous editions, it would make sense that it would be made explicit in writing that things have changed. If this is not the case there is no reason to believe that prior lore doesn't hold precedent.
2. This isn't about Elminster directly. This is about -ALL- Chosen. Elminster is just used as an example because he's the most well known. If it were just Elminster we were talking about it wouldn't be a problem. If it were -JUST- Mystra's Chosen we were talking about it wouldn't be a problem. The problem arises when an author or a designer wants to make someone important to a deity. The first person they think of SHOULD BE a ranking cleric in the faith. Instead, many designers and authors immediately jump to creating a Chosen for that deity, and many of them operate outside the normal power structure.
It's one thing to have exceptions, like Mystra's Chosen. However, there is a point when they stop being an exception and it starts to become the norm. If the chosen of the various deities were roughly along the lines of Slarkrethel, the Chosen of Umberlee - and given as much face time - I'd find it much more acceptable.
My major issue with all of this is that it's cutting out the clergy as being the middle men between mortals and the divine. This should almost never happen. |
| Venger |
Posted - 21 May 2013 : 08:46:00
That's rules specific. In 4E a god can't strip a Cleric or a Paladin of their powers, either, and I see no indication that that'll change in 5E. At the moment, a Paladin of Torm can slaughter every cleric in the Temple of Torm's Coming, sell his soul to Asmodeus, and bang a succubus on top of Torm's throne in Celestia all while wailing on his 9 foot long electric Avatar of Cyric guitar, and there's nothing Torm can do to take his powers away. If the rules can be rewritten so that gods can no longer deny Clerics and Paladins their powers, then they can just as easily be rewritten so they can deny Chosen their powers.
quote:
Where is the focus placed more often than not? Those "handful of champions of a god" or those who 'minister to thousands of faithful across Faerun'? Who in the grand scheme of things is more important: Elminster or the High Priest of Mystra?
Here's a better question: Why does Elminster get so much attention? Is it because he's a Chosen of Mystra or because he's Elminster?
Answer: Because he's Elminster. If he weren't Chosen of Mystra he'd still be getting a lot of attention because he would still be Elminster. I very much doubt that his status as a Chosen of Mystra is the driving force behind his use. Likewise, Fzoul Chembryl was used for a good long time before he became Chosen of Bane. His newfound status changed nothing for him when it came to his use, but it DID grant him extra in-game powers for him to wield above and beyond what a normal Cleric would have.
And game wise, that's an enormous advantage of having a Chosen of Bane, a Chosen of Cyric, or whatever, particularly if that Chosen is divorced from the church power structure. You get to have an interesting villain with unusual powers for the heroes to fight against, and it won't necessarily follow that they'll have to mow through the entire church power structure, since a lot of these Chosen could be individual champions operating alone or in small groups performing specific tasks for the gods they serve. Likewise, the status of Chosen makes for a nice reward for a player to work for, like Sainthood from the Book of Exalted Deeds (I actually played a Saint once).
In short, I see no downside. Would it be nice if more of the power structure of the individual churches were to be shown? Yes. But it isn't the existence of Chosen which is preventing that. |
| Aldrick |
Posted - 21 May 2013 : 03:43:02
quote:
Originally posted by Venger
quote:
They don't need to slap a ton of power onto a single mortal and call it a day.
But... they already do. "I like you, so here're some Paladin powers. I like you, too, so here's the ability to bring people back from the dead and incinerate up to 400 people to death at once." Being Chosen is just another different kind of power that deities can give out to their worshippers, particularly those who're most important to them for whatever reason.
And the churches are hardly made irrelevant. Is Elminster treating and overseeing the thousands of Mystran worshippers across Faerun? Nope. He's working on his particular missions for Mystra. The church performs a different task than the Chosen. The Chosen is one or maybe a handful of champions of a god with particular duties while the Clerics of the church have other duties, mostly ministering to the faithful. They're not made irrelevant because they're not doing the same thing.
And yet, in Realms fiction the Chosen are constantly given priority over the clergy. Even look at the years and years of discussion we have on Realms lore. Where is the focus placed more often than not? Those "handful of champions of a god" or those who 'minister to thousands of faithful across Faerun'? Who in the grand scheme of things is more important: Elminster or the High Priest of Mystra?
And being a Chosen and a Cleric or Paladin is a completely different thing. Canonically, a deity can cut them off instantaneously. They are individuals who've taken oaths and dedicated their lives to the service of their deity. It's not the same for a Chosen if we take the effort it took to strip Sammaster of his Chosen powers (and the fact that some was still left behind even after being stripped) as any indication. (Cult of the Dragon, pg. 15 & 16)
|
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 21 May 2013 : 03:22:58
Well I don't know about that.... The Magister is a pretty high level postion to, and that is a mix of church hierchry and chosen. |
| Venger |
Posted - 21 May 2013 : 02:56:41
quote:
They don't need to slap a ton of power onto a single mortal and call it a day.
But... they already do. "I like you, so here're some Paladin powers. I like you, too, so here's the ability to bring people back from the dead and incinerate up to 400 people to death at once." Being Chosen is just another different kind of power that deities can give out to their worshippers, particularly those who're most important to them for whatever reason.
And the churches are hardly made irrelevant. Is Elminster treating and overseeing the thousands of Mystran worshippers across Faerun? Nope. He's working on his particular missions for Mystra. The church performs a different task than the Chosen. The Chosen is one or maybe a handful of champions of a god with particular duties while the Clerics of the church have other duties, mostly ministering to the faithful. They're not made irrelevant because they're not doing the same thing. |
| Aldrick |
Posted - 21 May 2013 : 02:37:37
quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
ya know come to think of it, elimister never seems to interact with the church of mystera or azuth besides through the harpers.
That's exactly my point. They're made irrelevant. |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 21 May 2013 : 02:34:07
ya know come to think of it, elimister never seems to interact with the church of mystera or azuth besides through the harpers. |
| Aldrick |
Posted - 21 May 2013 : 02:04:25
quote:
Originally posted by Venger
Why is that a problem? Not everyone in a god's faith has to fall within a hierarchy. And you yourself answer your own question later on in your post: Elminster, the Simbul, etc. don't take precedence over the head of the church, so why would the same be true of any other faiths?
For instance, going back to Joan of Arc, one could consider her to be the equivalent of a Chosen. That, however, doesn't mean she suddenly supplants the Pope. The Chosen of Mystra, though, fulfill multiple roles, and one of them was to advance and preserve the Art. Likewise, other gods would have their own Chosen who advance and preserve their own tenets, because the gods will always have uses for people who operate outside of a churches hierarchy, and for those they deem most worthy, why not rewards them and grant them status as Chosen?
Its not so much about hierarchies as some deities lack those, it's more an issue of focus. When you have Chosen running around they most often have a direct line of communication to their deity. This cuts out the priests who are supposed to be the middle men between mortals and the divine.
Elminster doesn't need to consult with the High Priest of Mystra when Mystra is speaking to Elminster directly. And let's be clear - the deities do not frequently speak directly to their clergy. So this puts someone like Elminster (or any other Chosen - this is not an Elminster only problem) at a higher level of priority.
If you have a high priest whose trying to interpret Mystra's will through dream visions and symbolic manifestations (running the risk of getting it wrong), and then you have Mystra basically showing up with Elminster and being all like, "Hey dude, go do this." This creates a conflict around who has priority.
My preference when dealing with these favored people is to have them not turn to the deity itself, but to the deities clergy. So, if Mystra is trying to communicate something important to Elminster through a dream vision - fine. He may think he understands what it means and run off to do whatever, but there may also be times when he is confounded. When he is confounded, who should he turn too? The clergy of Mystra. They are the people that exist to guide mortals toward doing what their deity wants.
As for rewards, since Chosen status often comes with immortality attached, I'm not really in favor of that. I believe deities can grant boons and privileges to mortals - that's fine, but granting them effective immortality and other such boons? That's a bit over the top.
I prefer deities who are less overtly involved. Using your Joan of Arc example, it's sufficient enough for her to be on the battlefield, and then suddenly everyone looks up to the sky and notices Red Knight's holy symbol clearly visible. This would inspire those fighting with her, believing that Red Knight is on their side. Or she could be looking over a map planning strategy when suddenly she has a brief vision about a mountain pass marked on the map and feels inspired to modify troop movements. Or alternatively, and perhaps more directly, things look bad in a battle. Her planned re-enforcement's didn't arrive on time. It looks as if she's going to be overwhelmed... then suddenly over the hill - just in time - the re-enforcement's arrive at the absolute perfect moment when the enemies flank is wide open leading her troops to a swift victory.
Little things like this are the ways I prefer the deities to influence the Realms and events. They don't need to slap a ton of power onto a single mortal and call it a day. |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 21 May 2013 : 01:58:47
I view it this way as far as d&d mechanics go ...
Chosen - Favored Souls
High priest = clerics.
So in this aspect,chosen are outside the power structure, and should be viewed as equal as a high ranking priest, but should not over come the word of the high priest, unless the chosen is viewed as some sort of prophet for said god, and well...hence how we get gods with different sects. |
| Venger |
Posted - 21 May 2013 : 01:17:57
quote:
My issue with using a deity's powers in such a way is that it elevates someone outside to a privileged status for that deity.
Why is that a problem? Not everyone in a god's faith has to fall within a hierarchy. And you yourself answer your own question later on in your post: Elminster, the Simbul, etc. don't take precedence over the head of the church, so why would the same be true of any other faiths?
For instance, going back to Joan of Arc, one could consider her to be the equivalent of a Chosen. That, however, doesn't mean she suddenly supplants the Pope. The Chosen of Mystra, though, fulfill multiple roles, and one of them was to advance and preserve the Art. Likewise, other gods would have their own Chosen who advance and preserve their own tenets, because the gods will always have uses for people who operate outside of a churches hierarchy, and for those they deem most worthy, why not rewards them and grant them status as Chosen? |
| Aldrick |
Posted - 21 May 2013 : 01:05:21
quote:
Originally posted by Venger
quote:
Mystra's Chosen were supposed to be special. They were supposed to be the fail safe for the Weave should something happen to Mystra. They were her backup plan - that's why they held part of her divine power.
Obviously that's not the only reason for Chosen, as some others have sprung up over the years in service to other gods, so there can be other reasons why gods would select Chosen. Those reasons may not even be the same across the board.
It certainly changed over time, but my point wasn't that the concept of Chosen has changed. It was that *originally* the concept was different.
quote:
Originally posted by Venger
Every god likely has their own particular reasons for what constitutes a Chosen or not, but I could see the broad reasons for someone being selected a Chosen being 1) devotion to the god in question, 2) being an individual who embodies the god's ethos in one way or another, and 3) being in a position to accomplish a great deed for the god in question which exalts that god. So a Chosen of, say, Oghma, might not be the high priest of the faith, but rather the Faerunian Homer composing the greatest epic poem of the age. A Chosen of the Red Knight might be the Faerunian Joan of Arc, a teenage girl who leads the armies of her nation into victorious battle against their oppressors. A Chosen of Tempus might be the Faerunian Alexander the Great, a Fighter, who conquers half the world. And so on.
My issue with using a deity's powers in such a way is that it elevates someone outside to a privileged status for that deity. If you're the high priest of Oghma, for example, and you encounter Oghma's chosen who has more rank? Is the chosen duty bound to heed the advice and wisdom of the high priest or is the high priest duty bound to heed the advice and wisdom from the chosen? What if they hold conflicting points of view? Can the faithful be divided over this fact, and if so does that make the chosen part of Oghma's church?
I have no problem with a deity looking favorably upon mortals outside of their priests. In fact, they no doubt do it frequently. Your Chosen of Red Knight, for example, might earn her favor. However, the way I prefer that favor to manifest is through the deity sending dream visions to her clergy guiding them to actively aid and support her.
I feel that so much damage has been done to the cults and clergy of the Realms by making center stage these individuals who by and large are completely disconnected from them.
In my Realms the servants of the gods are to be revered, respected, and held in awe. These are individuals who have a direct line to a living god. If you screw with them bad things are bound to happen. They hold privileged and important positions in society. Everyone knows that the gods are real, and these are the individuals who speak for them - they are the voice of their deity.
When the High Priest of Mystra makes a declaration for all intents and purposes it came from the mouth of Mystra herself. It doesn't matter if Elminster disagrees with it, and even openly opposes it. If he actively works against the church he becomes a heretic, and proves himself unworthy of Mystra's favor. Who determines who is and who is not worthy of Mystra's favor? Her clergy. Who determines which clergy are not worthy of Mystra's favor? Mystra. |
| Aldrick |
Posted - 21 May 2013 : 00:40:58
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
IMO, if Cyric tried to say he was just "roleplaying with his wife, and the other guy happened to catch a glimspe of him", then he could establish 'reasonable doubt' and perhaps get away with it (in a real court of law).
This caused me to LOL. Cyric: "What?! I'm not guilty of any of this! I was just roleplaying with Loviatar while pretending to be Torm. I was being her naughty little boy and she was supposed to come spank me! This is totally legit and not in any way what it looks like!"
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
I'm not aware of anything in the lore that says a deity can't claim to be an active deity.
Beyond the fact that there aren't any examples of it happening?
I would argue with that interpretation, and let me outline why.
1. There is no lore stating that it can't happen.
2. I think the Cyric lore above is pretty solid justification for it happening, but even if you want to argue semantics it's still irrelevant. Just because something hasn't been published doesn't mean it hasn't happened. Ed is adding lore to the Realms all the time, and source books - when they're published - occasionally add in new lore in the past. If we suddenly learn that Cyric was impersonating Waukeen to X cult in Sembia in 1374 DR, that isn't a retcon. It's an addition to the lore. It's not a retcon because it's not changing anything. In order for it to be a retcon there must be something stating that it's impossible for a deity to do that, some law imposed by Ao, which does not seem to exist.
3. However, I would argue that the biggest obstacle you face in your argument are some of the heresies that we know about. From your position you'd have to explain, for example, why Ilmater would support the Cult of Shared Suffering. For me, it's easy to say, "You know what, Loviatar is probably behind that. She's most likely the one granting those clerics spells, and pretending to be Ilmater." You have to argue why Ilmater would want people to act in complete contradiction to what he normally teaches. |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 20 May 2013 : 22:29:29
I'll make the picket signs for gen con |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 20 May 2013 : 22:19:50
quote:
Originally posted by charger_ss24
Bring Deneir back. Free Cadderly! 
I agree completely with this. Sure, Cadderly's spirit is keeping that thing away, but still...his death just made me mad, and everyone, even Danica, just seemed to accept it. So yeah, bring back Deneir and free Cadderly! |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 20 May 2013 : 20:28:29
Some of the burros are just as forgotten :P |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 May 2013 : 19:58:23
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It varies from state to state, but here (in NY) the legal definition of impersonation is...
quote:
criminal impersonation is committed when an individual "impersonates another and does an act in such assumed character with intent to obtain a benefit or to injure or defraud another"(N.Y. Penal Law § 190.25 [McK-inney 1996]).
Nowhere in the legal definition does it say you have to have actually identified yourself thusly. Just appearing and acting as the person makes you guilty of the crime.
There is an even broader definition when this is applied to any person making themselves out to be a public official or similar (like pretending you are a delivery guy, or work for the gas company). Just putting on the uniform and knocking on someones door makes you guilty - no words even need be exchanged.
Considering that gods qualify as the ultimate 'public official', I think just looking like another deity makes you guilty. As I said before, its open to interpretation. IMO, if Cyric tried to say he was just "roleplaying with his wife, and the other guy happened to catch a glimspe of him", then he could establish 'reasonable doubt' and perhaps get away with it (in a real court of law). Since Cyric doesn't have a wife (or GF), and his other name is 'the Prince of Lies', I would think any judge would laugh at him if he tried this defense.
UNLESS Cyric tries to say he was some form of entertainer. There is some leeway there. Since most of us consider him a clown, that might actually work. 
Pretty sure that the laws of the state of New York do not extend to deities in the Realms. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 May 2013 : 19:56:09
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
I'm not aware of anything in the lore that says a deity can't claim to be an active deity.
Beyond the fact that there aren't any examples of it happening? |
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