| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Gyor |
Posted - 27 Sep 2025 : 03:01:10
News from Magic Con Atlanta, the 3rd DLC for the Forgotten Realms Ultimate Bundle is that beloved part of the Forgotten Realms...Lorwyn-Shadowmoore?
It's called Lorwyn: First Light, they literally took a plane of MtG, turned it into a Feywild Domain of Delight and plopped a portal to it in the Moonshae Isles. To be far they share a Celtic Theme and fey theme.
All the DLCs are 32 pages. This one has 2 new species, advise for 8 more for the setting, a Gazeteer for Lorwyn-Shadowmoore, 2 feats, 2 backgrounds, 2 magic items, 2 example adventures which share 1 map, and 8 monsters (such as giants, fey tricksters, and Nature Incarnations).
Wtf they put this in the Forgotten Realms Ultimate Bundle eludes me honestly. They found a way to create a connection to FR by create a different version of Lorwyn.
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Scots Dragon |
Posted - 13 Nov 2025 : 11:14:09
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
TECHNICALLY it could also open up other IP to which MtG has been crossing over with, like Warhammer 40,000.
-MtG has a crossover with Final Fantasy going on.
-Final Fantasy has a history of Disney crossovers.
-Royal Magician Vangerdhast getting into a duel during a magefair with Royal Magician Donald Duck coming to an adventure near us soon!
I think it's Ganrahast now, in the 15th-16th centuries. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 12 Nov 2025 : 19:20:18
quote:
Yet somehow people of Faerūn know the names like Melf, Mordenkainen, Bigby, and Tenser despite not being from Faerūn. Go figure...
quote:
Yeah, they know the names from the spells. I'm not aware of any spells named after Tyreus.
According to old Spelljammer and Dark Sun lore, long ago the world of Athas was closely linked to the "Triad" worlds of Toril, Oerth, and Krynn. For millennia.
But apparently crystal spheres in the Flow all float and bob around like bubbles on the surface of a river so Athas (and "Kreenspace" and a few other related worlds) drifted apart from the others. Indeed, so far apart that it is (nearly) impossible to still travel between Athas and the other worlds with "normal" spelljamming and planeswalking methods.
Yet there aren't any spells in the Realms named by wizards of Athas. But surely there must have been, after so many centuries of continued contact? We know the Kreen races all originated on Athas. We know that the Gith races once had a lot of interaction with their Athas-stranded offshoots. We know that at least one or two entire "realms" and their populations were transplanted from Athas to the Ravenloft demiplane, and we know that some number of individuals from those populations have since wandered to other worlds and planes.
And we know that magic and spells on Athas were much more highly developed than their Realms counterparts are in every era except perhaps Ancient Netheril. Athas is apparently the ultimate consequence of a Netheril-like civilization which wasn't halted. The world of Dark Sun has been changed into the post-apocalyptic desolate, drained, blasted wasteland we know today by many centuries upon centuries of powerful magical pollutions and powerful magical abuses.
So Athas should have long ago produced all the same spells of Ancient Netheril and since produced many more, named after numerous Athas spellcrafters supposedly unknown in or to the Realms. At least a few of these Athas-named spells should still exist in Realmslore - yet evidently they don't because the creators of every named spell have already been fully accounted.
This is the result of organically-sequential and arbitrarily-segregated product development in real world lore. But in the Realms setting lore no plausible recognition or explanation has been offered.
(On a side note, Ancient Empires: Netheril explains that all the named spells in the PHB were created by Netherese arcanists instead of by otherworldly magic-users on Oerth/etc. Of course we tend to ignore or forget this explanation because we know it's false, wrong, and consistently contradicted in all other lore. The Netheril product contained many wonderfully creative ideas which worked pretty well as a standalone setting - but as a coherent and consistent narrative meant to interact with other settings it was sorely confusing, flawed, and lacking. I like to handwave it all off as half-forgotten and greatly-exaggerated legends.) |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 12 Nov 2025 : 15:46:15
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
TECHNICALLY it could also open up other IP to which MtG has been crossing over with, like Warhammer 40,000.
-MtG has a crossover with Final Fantasy going on.
-Final Fantasy has a history of Disney crossovers.
-Royal Magician Vangerdhast getting into a duel during a magefair with Royal Magician Donald Duck coming to an adventure near us soon! |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 08 Nov 2025 : 16:28:07
Lorwyn & Shadowmoore are a very Feywild-like plane, but every 3 years, Lorwyn turns into Shadowmoor or vice versa. Everyone has their memories of the previous 3 years erased, and they all go through a radical attitude shift to match the plane they now find themselves on. Lorwyn is bright & cheerful, Shadowmoor is dreary and dangerous.
I know my MtG-obsessed housemate will be ecstatic for more MtG lore, but I'm not thrilled.
I also ran that FR/MtG crossover series. It fizzled out before the conclusion because I was playing with fans of both games, and the ones who preferred MtG wanted to go off and do more MtG stuff in Ravnica (they actually ended up grabbing a couple new players and starting a new campaign in Strixhaven), while the Realms fans wanted to go do a side quest that they thought would keep them in the Realms (but would actually, if they'd pursued it, turn into a search for a dwarf who got herself lost in the Astral Plane) and ended up doing neither because a new DM offered to run an Exandria game, and they were also fans of Critical Role. |
| Scots Dragon |
Posted - 07 Nov 2025 : 09:29:35
It makes all sorts of sense from a business perspective, but it's creatively bankrupt.
The fact that half of the art in the new books looks like it's depicting a very different world to Faer#251;n doesn't help. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 06 Nov 2025 : 22:46:09
quote:
Originally posted by Scots Dragon
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Yet somehow people of Faerūn know the names like Melf, Mordenkainen, Bigby, and Tenser despite not being from Faerūn. Go figure...
Some worlds have more portals between them than others, evidently.
Very true, though Im assuming that the main antagonist has plans to make his name, even as an off-worlder, something everyone will know. At least that's the gist I got when I read and ran the adventures.
Also, Im not sure that Sylvene used a portal, as she has the "spark" and innate ability to Planeswalk.
Obviously the links through different IPs is meant to be a bridge so that they A) sell more stuff and B) use said stuff in all their products. If you make a character from Lorwyn and are playing Descent to Avernus, there's gotta be a reason for that and WotC thinks this is as good as any. Not saying its the best, but I understand why.
TECHNICALLY it could also open up other IP to which MtG has been crossing over with, like Warhammer 40,000. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 06 Nov 2025 : 22:45:06
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I still find the beginning of that Magic/FR crossover to be ridiculous...
quote:
A lone mage roams the land. He is a visitor from another world. He has come to the Sword Coast in pursuit of legends and lore, in the footsteps of others who came here long ago. He is called Tyreus, though few here know him by name.
Oh, wow, no one local knows the name of someone from ANOTHER WORLD? 
Yet somehow people of Faerūn know the names like Melf, Mordenkainen, Bigby, and Tenser despite not being from Faerūn. Go figure...
Yeah, they know the names from the spells. I'm not aware of any spells named after Tyreus.
Either way, my point is that it's goofy to say "oh, hey, there is absolutely no reason that people should know who this guy is, but we're going to make a point of saying that no one knows who he is!" |
| Scots Dragon |
Posted - 04 Nov 2025 : 15:42:50
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Yet somehow people of Faerūn know the names like Melf, Mordenkainen, Bigby, and Tenser despite not being from Faerūn. Go figure...
Some worlds have more portals between them than others, evidently. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 04 Nov 2025 : 12:26:54
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I still find the beginning of that Magic/FR crossover to be ridiculous...
quote:
A lone mage roams the land. He is a visitor from another world. He has come to the Sword Coast in pursuit of legends and lore, in the footsteps of others who came here long ago. He is called Tyreus, though few here know him by name.
Oh, wow, no one local knows the name of someone from ANOTHER WORLD?
Yet somehow people of Faerūn know the names like Melf, Mordenkainen, Bigby, and Tenser despite not being from Faerūn. Go figure...
Still, I ran this 5 part adventure arch with my group and they had a lot of fun with it, despite most of them not knowing too much about M:tG lore or settings. I even used this to bridge a larger plot where evil forces of Phyrexia, discovering Sylvenes [mother of the Adventure's antagonist], planeswalking to Faerūn as a way to start a new invasion, with Neverwinter/Evernight as the epicenter.
Thus far, the group seems to be really enjoying it and the two M:tG players i have get an extra sense of joy (or dread) when I introduce enemies and villains they know from the game as well as allies, like Jace, the Planeswalker. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 04 Nov 2025 : 02:37:13
I still find the beginning of that Magic/FR crossover to be ridiculous...
quote:
A lone mage roams the land. He is a visitor from another world. He has come to the Sword Coast in pursuit of legends and lore, in the footsteps of others who came here long ago. He is called Tyreus, though few here know him by name.
Oh, wow, no one local knows the name of someone from ANOTHER WORLD? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 01 Nov 2025 : 15:43:03
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
They have already done at least one MTG/Forgotten Realms crossover -- as in, a series of adventures set in the Realms and featuring a Planewalker character.
And if one looks at the old blood and magic video game lore, which is tied to the utter east part of the realms which has seen virtually NIL in exploration .... it had powerful individuals in the "circle of order" who were something like the "Lord of the Lands" who ruled the "realm of lands" and "the Lord of Flame" who rules the "Land of Fire" and the "Lady of Tides" who rules "the Land of Tides" .... one could see them as powerful beings who maybe used magic similar to MTG rather than standard wizardry. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 01 Nov 2025 : 03:37:15
They have already done at least one MTG/Forgotten Realms crossover -- as in, a series of adventures set in the Realms and featuring a Planewalker character. |
| TKU |
Posted - 31 Oct 2025 : 22:17:09
WoTC keep dancing around the idea of merging the Magic the Gathering and D&D settings. Each time pushing the envelope a little bit further. It's clear (to me) that some point in the future that's their end goal- the cold corporate logic is kinda easy to understand on that one- two similar IPs in different subsectors of the tabletop hobby sphere. Mashing them together into one sort of mega- IP makes sense on a profit-building level.....and personally I absolutely dread that inevitability.
The similarities between the two settings are really pretty superficial. Yeah, you can play D&D in using MTG as a setting.....you could also do the same with Star Wars-there isn't a level where that 'makes sense' beyond a purely mechanical (gameplay) one and a superficial similarity in settings. They are unique settings and combining them would only dilute them-WoTC has already been steadily chipping away at what made MtG an interesting setting for a while now to the point that it's borderline unrecognizable from where it was a decade ago-a merger is *really* not what that IP needs at this point.
And on the D&D side of things (specifically the Realms) the idea that Toril would benefit from shoehorning in Ravnica or Lorwyn or whatever when they already can't be bothered to even mention half the regions in Faerun (much less Toril as a whole, or even less-explored alternate planes seldom mentioned) in their products is laughable. Yet strangely I feel like leaving swaths of Faerun fallow while jumping onto the quick and easy path of frankenstein-ing their two big IPs together.....it's very on-par from what I'd expect of WoTC these days. The setting(s) would be irrevocably disfigured to the point of unrecognition, but I doubt they really care-they didn't care with the Spellplague mess, they won't care this time either as long as the numbers in their spreadsheet go up. |
| PattPlays |
Posted - 29 Oct 2025 : 00:41:58
I will also say that Magic: The Gathering changed its lore recently to create Omen Paths and I assume they just ended or permanently changed Planeswalkers as a concept. Now there are cosmic gates that take anyone anywhere, now. Taking this literally I imagine Ravnica becoming a kind of Sigil for the MTG planes- with many Omen Paths and an abundance of tourists and travellers.
Now, they have been doing Modules for 5th Edition for a decade involving Theros and Ravnica and Ahmonket. Many people out there presumably have characters that have played in those worlds and in the the greater fiction of D&D. Much as any DM can take a storybook and create a demiplane or crystal sphere where the fiction exists- the MTG planes have been very much part of the greater fiction for a good while.
What I find fascinating (even if MTG constantly invents new ways to death spiral every year) is that the Omen Paths might just open to the Outer Planes and other D&D realms just for the fun of it. If DMs can use memories of better times where MTG had more impressive world building- or adapt the strange modern canon into something engaging for D&D players- surely any MTG plane could be made into a great dimension for players to travel to.
PS: Lorwyn and Shadowmoor are from the 2000's. They're CLASSIC! IIRC those Shadowmoor elves are NUTS.
Edit: The Moonshaes that we all know are not even the Moonshaes of Ed's Realms, right? He sent them that huge map and they changed the Moonshaes and Icewild Dale- as I recall Ed had thousands of islands for the Moonshaes- and they expanded the land in the northwest to have a setting for their books. |
| Hermit |
Posted - 27 Oct 2025 : 13:50:23
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
I envy the people who mindlessly accept (or even wholeheartedly embrace) every official decision by this corporation.
You must...CONSUME |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 03 Oct 2025 : 13:11:20
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by EltonRobb
Another wasted opportunity for Wizards. They got a whole world they can fill out.
THIS.
So very much THIS.
That's one of the things that's bugged for a while, and particularly since 5E has come out. Wizards has had so many opportunities to flex their creative muscles and show us what they're capable of... Instead we get adventures with barely enough lore to cover the adventure itself, reprinted settings with 5E rules slapped on top, and movie references that are so obvious they might as well put a sidebar in talking about the movie.
This I definitely agree with. That being said, I think partly they're just afraid to go into the rest of the world and revisit and fix things. The lashback on the changes over 4e were harsh (not undeserved mind you). I feel like it can be revisited with an eye towards incorporating a return of the old and keeping the new at the same time (i.e. PORTIONS of Abeir returning, but PORTIONS of Abeir remaining, while PORTIONS of the people and/or places of Toril returning). However, I may be one of the few who isn't polarized on this subject (i.e. go all one way or another). I even go so far as to say "let's make some changes to keep BOTH Maztica/Anchorome/Lopango AND Laerakond/Returned Abeir" by just making a simple assumption that people had it wrong and they weren't in exactly the same spot. I actually think putting Maztica/Lopango/"what we've been calling Katashaka" in between Faerun and Laerakond opens up a lot of opportunity for some development that people may find of interest. |
| Azar |
Posted - 03 Oct 2025 : 05:22:59
https://www.enworld.org/attachments/rememberedrealms-jpg.377933/. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Oct 2025 : 03:59:26
quote:
Originally posted by EltonRobb
Another wasted opportunity for Wizards. They got a whole world they can fill out.
THIS.
So very much THIS.
That's one of the things that's bugged for a while, and particularly since 5E has come out. Wizards has had so many opportunities to flex their creative muscles and show us what they're capable of... Instead we get adventures with barely enough lore to cover the adventure itself, reprinted settings with 5E rules slapped on top, and movie references that are so obvious they might as well put a sidebar in talking about the movie. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 03 Oct 2025 : 02:38:02
Well, let me first say "don't know jack about MTG Lorwyn" ..... but then let me add, "I don't much mind them creating a link between Lorwyn via some dimensional method to the Moonshaes". To that, I will add "as long as they don't make it that Lorwyn is the ONLY fey realm linked to the Moonshaes". I'm absolutely fine with the Moonshaes being some kind of Nexus to multiple fey realms.... or rather another way to say it might be "I'm fine with most fey realms having links to multiple OTHER fey realms". Tentatively, I'd even say I might not be upset if there's some link from Lorwyn to the Moonshaes at X point, there might also be a link from Lorwyn in another totally different area that might have a link to Rashemen, Nimbral, Selune, Anchorome, the Yuirwood, the High Forest, etc... or even other worlds in realmspace. By that I mean you might be able to cross to Lorwyn near some lake, travel some either short or long distance, and turn around and come out in some other area of the realms... and add to that that people on both sides may not realize that these entry/exit points lead to the same world. For instance, if some forest bound portal in Lorwyn exits into a giant forest in Anchorome and another portal at the bottom of a lake in Lorwyn comes out in a moonwell in the Moonshaes.... the people of Lorwyn may think that those are two different worlds with possibly only the moon in the night sky being a hint. |
| EltonRobb |
Posted - 02 Oct 2025 : 20:56:40
Another wasted opportunity for Wizards. They got a whole world they can fill out. |
| paintphob |
Posted - 01 Oct 2025 : 17:53:28
quote:
A poor comparison: that material was built/intended for a tabletop gaming setting from the very beginning. What Wizards of the Coast is doing is bolting on other products to D&D, in the manner of Victor Frankenstein.
Would a better comparison have been the addition of the parody war game The Great Khan Game? |
| paintphob |
Posted - 01 Oct 2025 : 17:42:27
quote:
FR2 wasn't sold as a part of the OGB, and when it was, it had been made a part of the Realms.
I apologize, I may have been unclear. The Moonshae were wedged into the Realms, even thought they were not originally part of the Realms. They appears in the OGB large area map, and mentioned int the Cyclopedia.
quote:
That's not at all the same thing as "hey, this third part of a Forgotten Realms package isn't part of the Realms at all and we're not pretending that it is!"
I agree 100%. As you mentioned in a later post, it does feel like a bait and switch, as far as Realms content goes. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 30 Sep 2025 : 04:27:04
I don't mind them making Magic settings into D&D settings... What I have issue with, here, is a Magic setting being pushed as part of a Forgotten Realms bundle -- and especially them waiting to announce they were doing that. It seems like a deliberate bait and switch. |
| Azar |
Posted - 30 Sep 2025 : 01:37:54
quote:
Originally posted by paintphob
quote:
I don't think anyone's complaining about that. I think the complaint is that part of the Forgotten Realms Bundle is literally another setting, and that it's more of WotC simply repackaging some existing thing rather than creating something entirely new.
Considering the part of the Realms that the DLC will connect to, I find that statement humorous. Let your mind wander back almost 40 years ago, and you can almost hear -
"I think the complaint is that part of the Forgotten Realms Bundle Campaign Box Set and FR2 are literally another setting, and that it's more of WotC TSR simply repackaging some existing thing rather than creating something entirely new using what was already there."
The more things change...
That said, I have no horse in this race. I have enough content to last me another 40 years, so I will not be buying it. Also, the Moonshae were never really a part of the Realms that I liked.
A poor comparison: that material was built/intended for a tabletop gaming setting from the very beginning. What Wizards of the Coast is doing is bolting on other products to D&D, in the manner of Victor Frankenstein. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 29 Sep 2025 : 23:43:42
quote:
Originally posted by paintphob
quote:
I don't think anyone's complaining about that. I think the complaint is that part of the Forgotten Realms Bundle is literally another setting, and that it's more of WotC simply repackaging some existing thing rather than creating something entirely new.
Considering the part of the Realms that the DLC will connect to, I find that statement humorous. Let your mind wander back almost 40 years ago, and you can almost hear -
"I think the complaint is that part of the Forgotten Realms Bundle Campaign Box Set and FR2 are literally another setting, and that it's more of WotC TSR simply repackaging some existing thing rather than creating something entirely new using what was already there."
The more things change...
That said, I have no horse in this race. I have enough content to last me another 40 years, so I will not be buying it. Also, the Moonshae were never really a part of the Realms that I liked.
FR2 wasn't sold as a part of the OGB, and when it was, it had been made a part of the Realms. That's not at all the same thing as "hey, this third part of a Forgotten Realms package isn't part of the Realms at all and we're not pretending that it is!" |
| paintphob |
Posted - 29 Sep 2025 : 22:41:00
quote:
I don't think anyone's complaining about that. I think the complaint is that part of the Forgotten Realms Bundle is literally another setting, and that it's more of WotC simply repackaging some existing thing rather than creating something entirely new.
Considering the part of the Realms that the DLC will connect to, I find that statement humorous. Let your mind wander back almost 40 years ago, and you can almost hear -
"I think the complaint is that part of the Forgotten Realms Bundle Campaign Box Set and FR2 are literally another setting, and that it's more of WotC TSR simply repackaging some existing thing rather than creating something entirely new using what was already there."
The more things change...
That said, I have no horse in this race. I have enough content to last me another 40 years, so I will not be buying it. Also, the Moonshae were never really a part of the Realms that I liked. |
| Azar |
Posted - 28 Sep 2025 : 20:59:01
No, I was broadly speaking. There are people who hang onto WotC's every word; after realizing that little things such as "fidelity", "consistency" and "integrity" are the exceptions and not the norm, I cannot comprehend that level of loyalty/interest. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 Sep 2025 : 19:57:15
I'm disappointed by the announcement, but since I wasn't going to buy it, anyway, it's not as big of a deal to me. I think it follows the trend I've pointed out, but that's not specific to the Realms. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 28 Sep 2025 : 13:07:01
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Considering that the Magic: the Gathering setting(s) have already been established as Realms-adjacent, meaning portals and Planeswalking have been used to access Abeir-Toril from places like Ravnica, then jumping to different planes/spheres of different universes really isn't that far fetched.
Take into account that even Earth, the D&D Realm (80s cartoon), and Oerth, can trace elements to Abeir-Toril/Faerūn then im not that shocked or even surprised honestly. Its not like the company pilfered from another IP as their all WotC owned. And it doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of things like Spelljamming and how easily that would've also tied in far-flung planes like what we see in M:tG. Hell, the Skyship Weatherlight is basically a Spelljammer ship.
I don't think anyone's complaining about that. I think the complaint is that part of the Forgotten Realms Bundle is literally another setting, and that it's more of WotC simply repackaging some existing thing rather than creating something entirely new.
I do understand the ire of saying this is a specifically Forgotten Realms tie-in, because it really isn 't and just another portal to another world instead of using that opportunity to flesh out a different, less often visited area of the established setting. I don't know what we're going to get with the setting book or the other two DLCs for the Realms (I'm really hoping for anything outside the Sword Coast and Western continent) but I can only assume that'll be Realms-specific like Cormyr, the Dalelands, the Far East, the Shining South, Moonsea, something with Thay/Rasheman/Nar? But we've been disappointed before, so who knows?
As for the re-packaging, if their intent was to fill out the Moonshae Isles with similar themes and concepts and they already have a distinct - even well known - IP for that concept just in another medium, then I think it makes sense to use what's already there. No need to reinvent the wheel when the wheel can be fixed to a different wagon so to speak. I don't remember too much about Lorwyn and Shadowmore, it was a M:tG set that I didn't put much effort into but I do know it's very fey, faerie, bogkins, pixie, halfling/kithkin themed with a lot of that whimsy stuff. So it definitely fits a theme that seems well tailored to the Moonshae Isles.
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
I envy the people who mindlessly accept (or even wholeheartedly embrace) every official decision by this corporation.
Oof, as one of the only persons that haven't poo-pooed the news of this on this thread, I can only ascertain that this is directed towards me? While I'm not vexed by the decision to use Lorwyn/Shadowmoore in this context, I certainly don't embrace or accept every one of their [WotC/Hasbro] decisions. I tend to really like Magic: the Gathering as both a game and as story elements, so I guess I'm more inclined to enjoy the crossovers of two games that I love than someone who doesn't have attachments to the M:tG side.
Still, I'm not a fan of 5.5 and I'll probably never get the update. I don't like some of the directions of their other works - they're not bad, just not my cup of tea. I certainly don't like how Hasbro, and by extension WotC, treats people. And I found the whole 'micro-transactions' of D&D Beyond utterly stupid. Honestly, I can't remember the last official WotC thing I actually purchased? The last two Forgotten Realms supplements I got were Third Party (Ed's update to Rasheman and his update for the Border Kingdoms).
So me not being frustrated by a DLC with tie-ins to Lorwyn shouldn't be an indication that I'm happy-go-lucky with WotC in their entirety. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 28 Sep 2025 : 09:54:57
Workslop I think is the new way to describe stuff like this. Likely AI created nonsense with lots of words that doesn't actually do anything. |
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