| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Khaa |
Posted - 07 Dec 2005 : 14:09:13
I recently did a speech for one of my classes of the age old controversy. I was wondering, has anyone ever really looked into it other than me? Most people would be surprised at the overwhelming support for D&D i found while the desperate protests of how "evil" at it. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| BEAST |
Posted - 30 Aug 2012 : 04:09:59
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I recall a bit of the scare from my youth in the 80's, but I didn't get into the game until well after most of it had died. [...] They had the idea (wonder where they got it from...?) that someone who plays D&D would go nuts and commit suicide, or that it was wicked and perverse.
Where did they get the idea from? As I've mentioned before, I believe it goes back to the tragic case of <James Dallas Egbert III>. He was apparently a socially-inept child prodigy who grew up with allegedly overbearing parents, then went off to college early, and did not adapt well to the university lifestyle. He disappeared in 1979. The family called in a private detective, William Dear, to find him, and asked him to be discreet about his findings. Dear found that Dallas had been depressed, using drugs, playing D&D, thinking suicidal thoughts, and homosexual. There were rumors on campus that people took drugs and LARPed in the tunnels beneath the buildings, sometimes getting carried away with their enhanced imaginations. Dear learned that Dallas was being traded around by predatorial homosexual older men, and kept in a drugged state. He eventually found Dallas, and brought him back home. But sadly, a year later, in 1980, Dallas became depressed again and killed himself.
The really odd thing about all of this for us is that at the time, Dear kept stuff like the depression and the drugs and the homosexuality secret from the press, but he volunteered that Dallas was into D&D, and the press went nuts over that. Irresponsible reporters took that crumb of information from him, and then liberally mixed any and all rumors they could dredge up from the campus, and the urban legends blasted off. A ridiculous book, Mazes & Monsters, was written exploiting all the nonsense, and a made-for-TV movie starring a young Tom Hanks was even put out loosely based on all this hype. It was only years later that the detective finally wrote his own book, The Dungeon Master: The Disappearance of James Dallas Egbert III, detailing his investigation, and kinda-sorta apologizing for mishandling the D&D-related information.
But it was too late; the damage to the game and this community had already been done. A virtual feeding frenzy of rumor and hype had been launched about D&D, and it took decades to overcome the "evil" label, and to arrive at a merely "pathetically nerdy" reputation.
What we have here is a classic example of the logical fallacy of confusing correlation with causation. That Dallas had been a D&D gamer did not necessarily cause him to become depressed and suicidal, anymore than the fact that he was a child prodigy, or a computer expert, or homosexual caused it. His depression probably resulted from insufficient nurturing in the family when he was younger, leading to low self-esteem, and D&D was probably an avenue for him to escape those feelings and maybe feel better. D&D was part of the solution--not the problem.
I still think that a movie, or at least a well-made documentary, needs to be made about this story. It's decades too late, I know. But there needs to be something to positively, indignantly counter all the unfounded myth and criticism. |
| Thrasymachus |
Posted - 30 Aug 2012 : 03:37:22
Thank you Gabrielle_H |
| Delwa |
Posted - 30 Aug 2012 : 03:26:58
quote:
Originally posted by Gabrielle_H
Okay, so... as requested, "Dungeons & Dragons: After-School Adventures"
Thanks! It's appreciated.  |
| Gabrielle_H |
Posted - 29 Aug 2012 : 22:37:13
Okay, so... as requested, "Dungeons & Dragons: After-School Adventures"
I'm not scanning and offering the whole thing because the copyright and use statements are pretty explicitly clear, but I did take a couple of pictures. The brochures for parents are still shrink-wrapped - I didn't open them. Mint in box! - but it's brochures and three handouts in a nice file folder, and the gist is that a librarian is promoting D&D after-school programs for kids and explaining the benefits to parents and teachers. The date on it is 2005.
Forgive the rushed-ness of all this (and the cat hair in one of the shots), but I'm out the door tonight to fly back east for another con. (No rest for the wicked.)
http://www.gabrielle-edits.com/img/DDASA2.JPG
http://www.gabrielle-edits.com/img/DDASA3.JPG
http://www.gabrielle-edits.com/img/DDASA4.JPG
http://www.gabrielle-edits.com/img/DDASA5.JPG
http://www.gabrielle-edits.com/img/DDASA6.JPG
Enjoy!
|
| Thrasymachus |
Posted - 29 Aug 2012 : 10:04:38
FWIW - It seems that in the U.S. the stage that allows for "D&D is evil" "Dad from Footloose" mentality is back on the rise IMHO.
IMHO
I chased down the Jack Chick "NO, NOT BLACK LEAF!". That's hysterical. |
| Thrasymachus |
Posted - 29 Aug 2012 : 09:59:38
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
True story.
A couple of years ago, when I was stupid (clever?) enough to Sass a judge (she said she was going to hold me in contempt - I told her I already held her in contempt) I got one of the best vacations of my life. 30 days in the hoosgaw.
During that time, I got to play games, watch TV, exercise, see a doctor almost daily, read 15 novels, etc, etc... all without any female nagging. They even brought my meals right to my room. I hope when I die heaven is a lot like jail. Aaaaaaanyway...
People played everything from dominoes to poker to chess to monopoly. The only time I ever seen a fight break out over a game was Monopoly... TWICE. Something about that game really pisses people off. All that did was reinforce what I was saying all along - Monopoly leads to death and destruction. 
LMAO - It's 5:00 am on the U.S. East Coast, but if there are no objections I am going to hand out the Funniest Post of the Day Award. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 29 Aug 2012 : 03:40:36
Monopoly. Nah. Doesn't apply in my country. Might as well say sungka, majong, or sabong. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 29 Aug 2012 : 03:37:39
I agree with you fully, MT. If we're going to start blaming games for that sort of thing, why stop there? Why not blame it on Risk, or Chess? Heck, why not Chutes and Ldders, or Sorry? Parechesi? You get the idea.
Granted, I'd imagine there are fewer players in a local county jail- as I said, he was in state prison (and the circumstances that led to it were pretty sh*tty, to be truthful. A note to all the guys out there- ALWAYS make sure of the age of your dates!!!) Long story short, he was away for ten years. Had LOTS of time to play. And he said that only TWICE in that time did it lead to any fighting or violence of any kind- mainly due to players characters (I'm assuming CE or NE) stealing from or trying to kill each other, and tempers flared. But as you said, these were people ALREADY pre-disposed tothat sort of behavior, as evidenced by the fact they were there in the first place. He mentioned one guy who had shot two people, but was totally "cool" while "inside". |
| Markustay |
Posted - 29 Aug 2012 : 03:13:03
True story.
A couple of years ago, when I was stupid (clever?) enough to Sass a judge (she said she was going to hold me in contempt - I told her I already held her in contempt) I got one of the best vacations of my life. 30 days in the hoosgaw.
During that time, I got to play games, watch TV, exercise, see a doctor almost daily, read 15 novels, etc, etc... all without any female nagging. They even brought my meals right to my room. I hope when I die heaven is a lot like jail. Aaaaaaanyway...
People played everything from dominoes to poker to chess to monopoly. The only time I ever seen a fight break out over a game was Monopoly... TWICE. Something about that game really pisses people off. All that did was reinforce what I was saying all along - Monopoly leads to death and destruction.
BTW, Alystra, tell your friend 'thanks' for ruining my perfectly good argument. No one in my jail played RPGs (since it was one of those local, minimum security things, campaigns had no chance of lasting).
My point is, if you start blaming suicides on Ozzy Ozborne, you could probably find just as many people killed themselves listening to The Beatles, or Beethoven. Those types are arguments are flawed. Its not the past time that leads to the behavior - you have to be predisposed toward it in the first place. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 29 Aug 2012 : 03:03:41
Interesting idea as far as it goes, MT, but I have a friend who was in prison (for reasons that both truly suck and will not be disclosed) for a number of years, and he actually ran AND played games while there, along with several other cons, some of whom actually HAD killed folks. Interestingly, it tended to keep those same folks out of trouble more than it caused any. So the logic is sort of faulty on both counts.... |
| Markustay |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 19:30:08
When confronted with such stupid arguments, I just answer people thusly:
"Walk into any maximum security prison and speak with the inmates on death row. Ask them if they've ever played D&D. I doubt you'll find a single one. Then ask them if they've ever played Monopoly. I doubt you'll find any who haven't".
Ergo, by their logic, Monopoly makes people kill people. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 02:53:26
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
...someone who plays D&D would go nuts and commit suicide, or that it was wicked and perverse.
There were instances of that. It's in the news. Though my memory's a bit hazy; and I'm not certain if it's the US or somewhere else.
D&D has gotten my country's undivided attention only when it released its (according to many) worse-than horrible films, making it a point of comparison for bad Filipino fantasy movies.
Actually, that is/was a fallacy. I did a paper on it years ago for a college on-line course, and dug up every reference to the phenomenon I could find- and came up with ZERO proven and documented cases of anyone killing others or commiting suicide specifically because of D&D. There were a few instances where unbalanced individuals who HAPPENED to play snapped, but there was no concrete and reliable connection between the two in any of them. It's basically an urban legend that got blown WAY out of proportion to any basis in truth! |
| Varl |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 02:27:32
As someone that has come from a fairly fundamental religious background, I feel very confident that my choices of pastimes (including D&D and M:tG) will have little to no effect on how I may be judged when the time comes. And if it turns out that I'm wrong about that, well, it won't really matter at that point then, now will it? However, I will still be able to say that, despite being wrong in the eyes of <deity>, I sure had fun.... |
| Dennis |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 02:06:55
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
...someone who plays D&D would go nuts and commit suicide, or that it was wicked and perverse.
There were instances of that. It's in the news. Though my memory's a bit hazy; and I'm not certain if it's the US or somewhere else.
D&D has gotten my country's undivided attention only when it released its (according to many) worse-than horrible films, making it a point of comparison for bad Filipino fantasy movies. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 01:53:54
I recall a bit of the scare from my youth in the 80's, but I didn't get into the game until well after most of it had died. I will note however that I live in north-central Texas, which is pretty much in the middle of the Bible-Belt, and even when I was grown and married, my grandmother and my uncle's ex both frowned on (and in the ex's case at one point even forbid it) me and my hubby teaching my three young cousins to play. They had the idea (wonder where they got it from...?) that someone who plays D&D would go nuts and commit suicide, or that it was wicked and perverse. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 20:12:51
D&D is not that famous here that the Church just ignores it. In other words, it didn't get as much unwanted attention as Harry Potter did. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 19:43:34
Don't you love people who follow a religion based around a guy who said "He who is without sin cast the first stone..." who then - in that name of the religion - spend their entire lives condemning everyone else?
And the really hilarious part is that none of them ever get that.
I'm kinda of a 'sermon on the mount' type myself. Got a face-full of 'organized religion' when I was in HS, and decided the only person who should be telling me how to live my life was me. The same should go for everyone.
Enough RW BS - anyone have links to those old anti-D&D booklets? I used to see that get posted every so often, but I think that guy finally pulled it down (I guess he finally figured out the only folks reading it were those of us who needed a good laugh). I really miss those old tracts folks handed out - the ones with god living on Jupiter were funny as hell. |
| Mournblade |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 17:26:19
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
You should read the stuff Jack Chick published about Catholics.
Let's just say he had a very active fantasy life.
*Shutters with barely controlled Rage* as a Catholic and avid D&D player, those publications (a term I use extreamly loosely) are probably some of the most vile I've ever had the displeasure of reading.
BLACKLEAF NOOOO!!!!!!!
Yes. He is offensive to Catholics as well. Jack Chick has a whole strip dedicated to a family that converted from Catholocism except for thier brother. When the brother dies, they all discuss how they will never see him again, because he cannot get into heaven.
His stuff is so out there, and he seems a very angry person.
He makes sure to offend everyone possible. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 14:22:59
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
You should read the stuff Jack Chick published about Catholics.
Let's just say he had a very active fantasy life.
*Shutters with barely controlled Rage* as a Catholic and avid D&D player, those publications (a term I use extreamly loosely) are probably some of the most vile I've ever had the displeasure of reading.
|
| Delwa |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 12:27:33
quote:
Originally posted by Gabrielle_H
In the process of moving house recently, I came upon a D&D promotional brochure I'd picked up when I worked at a Major Children's Publisher in New York -- it's aimed at educators and parents (but mostly educators), and the gist of it is "D&D inspires creativity and independent thinking, and is a great classroom tool. It's not evil, we promise!"
I loved it (having discovered D&D through my third-grade teacher, who DM'd us in class once a week), so I kept it.
If there's interest, I can see if I can scan a couple of pages.
I'd be interested! If an email address is needed, just let me know here or via PM.
Thanks! |
| Matt James |
Posted - 26 Aug 2012 : 22:50:43
YES PLEASE! |
| Gabrielle_H |
Posted - 26 Aug 2012 : 21:29:09
In the process of moving house recently, I came upon a D&D promotional brochure I'd picked up when I worked at a Major Children's Publisher in New York -- it's aimed at educators and parents (but mostly educators), and the gist of it is "D&D inspires creativity and independent thinking, and is a great classroom tool. It's not evil, we promise!"
I loved it (having discovered D&D through my third-grade teacher, who DM'd us in class once a week), so I kept it.
If there's interest, I can see if I can scan a couple of pages.
|
| combatmedic |
Posted - 26 Aug 2012 : 09:46:12
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Possibly only in America, my country's is supposedly 90 percent catholic and no one ever said anything. The same is with the geek-nerd stereotype, out of 30+ people I played with not one matches the description.
You should read the stuff Jack Chick published about Catholics.
Let's just say he had a very active fantasy life.
|
| Quale |
Posted - 26 Aug 2012 : 09:40:04
Possibly only in America, my country's is supposedly 90 percent catholic and no one ever said anything. The same is with the geek-nerd stereotype, out of 30+ people I played with not one matches the description. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 25 Aug 2012 : 21:23:55
When you're a strong, stocky guy, people don't tend to mock you to your face. 
But if they do mock me behind my back, who cares--the chickens!  |
| Cassie5squared |
Posted - 25 Aug 2012 : 19:40:34
In my experience it does seem to just be a geek thing more than anything else, albeit one that people I know don't mock me about. I present it as a way to socialise and use my imagination, and they can see how much enthusiasm I have for it, so it gets viewed as more of a quirky hobby.
Though my manager's actually got interested enough to ask me to run a game at work. Eek. XD |
| Markustay |
Posted - 25 Aug 2012 : 17:48:28
I never encountered any of the really bad stuff (NY is pretty damn liberal), but I remember once when I was photocopying a bunch of character sheets on the office copier in the late 80's, and one of the company salesmen asked me what I was doing. I told him I was copying some stuff for my D&D game.
He just looked at me and said, "Isn't that the game where kids go nuts and kill each other in real life?" I just shook my head.
I later found-out he was cheating on his wife with the company secretary. Glad he was there to judge my morality. {smirk} |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Aug 2012 : 16:42:47
quote:
Originally posted by Venger
There hasn't been a D&D controversy since the early 80's. I don't know why anyone's worried.
My dad's second wife was death on D&D, to the point that she once got rid of all of my books that had "dragon" in the title! This was the early 90's. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Aug 2012 : 16:41:34
Let's avoid the political commentary, please. |
| Mournblade |
Posted - 25 Aug 2012 : 16:17:43
quote:
Originally posted by Venger
There hasn't been a D&D controversy since the early 80's. I don't know why anyone's worried.
Oh my friend! You have to go out to the US midwest starting in Pennsylvania. There is still quite a controversy. Except MAGIC: The Gathering is also part of it. Most of the people in the movement can't distinguish between the two.
There are still people who think D&D uses actual spells, and there are people that think MAGIC cards are power items to tempt children.
Ofcourse they also believe the earth is 6000 years old. I don't know which of the above is more laughable.
Of course the United States has politicians that think the Earth is 6000 years old. And we wonder why the country is a mess.
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