| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Chosen of Bane |
Posted - 16 Jan 2006 : 18:24:10
I have two questions actually. The answer to the first may give me the answer to the second but I'll ask it anyway...
1) Can a Half-Dragon be raised as a dracolich or a regular lich? I know regular liches have a caster level requirement so that is pretty much out the window for most half-dragons but as far as I know there is no caster level requirement for a dracolich.
2) Would the Cult of the Dragon be interested in a Half-Dragon? Are they also "Sacred Ones"?
Thanks in advance. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 30 Apr 2011 : 02:20:15
Ditto. I think I' pretty much looking at NIMBY here. |
| Thente Thunderspells |
Posted - 29 Apr 2011 : 18:23:54
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Oh, I accept that it's canon... But there's an increasing amount of stuff in canon that fits into the NIMR (Not In My Realms) category. 
yeah, like a whole edition of the game for me |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 29 Apr 2011 : 18:13:28
quote:
Originally posted by Thente Thunderspells
Well the OP question was would the Cult be interested in the body of a half-dragon to make them a Sacred One.
I think that answer is "no" by all parties on both sides of the "can a half-dragon be turned into a dracolich" argument.
Wooly - I'm not trying to argue whether WotC should have allowed it or if it is a twist on the orignial intention of dracoliches or not. All I was trying to point out is that per canon 3.X lore, yes a creature with the Half-Dragon template CAN also take the dracolich template.
Whether you want to use that in your own Realms is, as always, open to each individual DM... just like I plan on having the PC's kill off Shar and keep Mystra around my realms instead of the other way.
Oh, I accept that it's canon... But there's an increasing amount of stuff in canon that fits into the NIMR (Not In My Realms) category. |
| Thente Thunderspells |
Posted - 29 Apr 2011 : 17:29:28
Well the OP question was would the Cult be interested in the body of a half-dragon to make them a Sacred One.
I think that answer is "no" by all parties on both sides of the "can a half-dragon be turned into a dracolich" argument.
Wooly - I'm not trying to argue whether WotC should have allowed it or if it is a twist on the orignial intention of dracoliches or not. All I was trying to point out is that per canon 3.X lore, yes a creature with the Half-Dragon template CAN also take the dracolich template.
Whether you want to use that in your own Realms is, as always, open to each individual DM... just like I plan on having the PC's kill off Shar and keep Mystra around my realms instead of the other way. |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 29 Apr 2011 : 05:56:51
Half Dragon Lich is an interesting idea.
Maybe the Cult would view them as abominations. |
| Bane of the Harpers |
Posted - 29 Apr 2011 : 02:31:52
The actual answer to the question "Can Half-dragons become dracoliches?" can be found in Dragons of Faerun. The small adventure "The Cliffs of Karthaut" mentions a former apprentice of Vargo Kent who found an old ritual of Kalzareinad that would turn an half-dragon into a dracolich.
The apprentice is actually stated as a Male dracolich half black dragon Wizard 6.
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| The Sage |
Posted - 29 Apr 2011 : 01:15:21
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Thente Thunderspells
According to the selection (and further reading) from Dragons of Faerun that Waldham posted, yes a half-dragon can become a dracolich.
I'd say a half-dragon would also have the option to become a regular lich if they wanted to though. Side benefit of being half...
A half-dragon is definitely not revered as a Sacred One, and a normal Wearer of Purple wouldn't want to waste the time and effort to turn a half-dragon into a dracolich, but as the excerpt from Dragons of Faerun shows if a Half-dragon finds a ritual to do just that, he can do it, and per the section in Dragon of Faerun, some Cult members and even Wearers of Purple will allow and follow a dracolich half-dragon.
In my opinion, half-dragons should not have the option of becoming dracoliches. The original concept was a draconic version of a lich -- not a lich with a few draconic features. Half-dragons becoming regular liches is fine by me, but not dracoliches.
I think being this restrictive with respect to the creation of dracoliches is fine. But I don't believe that I'd make it a permanent mandate for my games.
Essentially, I'd leave the possibility for half-dragons to become dracoliches, to be decided by either the lore I'm writing, or the campaigns I intend to run. In other words, the demands of the story I'm trying to tell. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 Apr 2011 : 23:15:26
quote:
Originally posted by Thente Thunderspells
According to the selection (and further reading) from Dragons of Faerun that Waldham posted, yes a half-dragon can become a dracolich.
I'd say a half-dragon would also have the option to become a regular lich if they wanted to though. Side benefit of being half...
A half-dragon is definitely not revered as a Sacred One, and a normal Wearer of Purple wouldn't want to waste the time and effort to turn a half-dragon into a dracolich, but as the excerpt from Dragons of Faerun shows if a Half-dragon finds a ritual to do just that, he can do it, and per the section in Dragon of Faerun, some Cult members and even Wearers of Purple will allow and follow a dracolich half-dragon.
In my opinion, half-dragons should not have the option of becoming dracoliches. The original concept was a draconic version of a lich -- not a lich with a few draconic features. Half-dragons becoming regular liches is fine by me, but not dracoliches. |
| Thente Thunderspells |
Posted - 28 Apr 2011 : 22:15:24
According to the selection (and further reading) from Dragons of Faerun that Waldham posted, yes a half-dragon can become a dracolich.
I'd say a half-dragon would also have the option to become a regular lich if they wanted to though. Side benefit of being half...
A half-dragon is definitely not revered as a Sacred One, and a normal Wearer of Purple wouldn't want to waste the time and effort to turn a half-dragon into a dracolich, but as the excerpt from Dragons of Faerun shows if a Half-dragon finds a ritual to do just that, he can do it, and per the section in Dragon of Faerun, some Cult members and even Wearers of Purple will allow and follow a dracolich half-dragon. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 28 Apr 2011 : 06:09:17
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I don't know that its breaking any rules. I would say it might be interesting to note that if she got pregnant in humanoid form, to bring the child to bear, she may have needed to stay in humanoid form for the duration, lest she harm the child (i.e. her internal organs were situated to accomodate a humanoid child growing with a birth sack, umbilical cord, etc, and shifting to a body that is built to accomodate laying eggs likely wouldn't to the child much good).
Oh, and I would vote no on the dracolich for a half-dragon as well. Also, I think that the cult does distinguish between full blooded true dragons and creatures that are "dragon-kin." The Year of Rogue Dragons books seem to indicate that Sammaster may have used drakes and other similar creatures as test subjects before using spells and processess on true dragons. At least that how it seemed to me.
Nope- not possible. The 3rd ed Draconomicon did not say anything about dragons doing this, bu the Council of Wyrms book in 2nd ed explicitly stated that female dragons in other forms could NOT give "birth" to a half-dragon. Simply changing back to her own form would kill the unborn childe inside, as draconic anatomy is far different from that of humanoids. (And most other non-humanoid creatures, too.)
Ass for a half-dragon becoming a dracolich, I'd go with Wooly on that. Since a half-dragon can usually take PC levels, they have a better chance of becoming a normal lich. |
| Waldham |
Posted - 26 Apr 2011 : 12:00:42
From Dragons of Faerūn p.58 :
quote:
In between hours of monotonous work as apprentice, Reveilaein found time to translate the writings on the tablet - an ancient artifact sacred to the draconic demigod Kalzareinad, the nefarious dragon god of dark secrets. The writings detailed a process which a half-dragon could undergo a transformation into dracolich know as the Kaemundar. Fascinated by the idea of becoming immortal but aware of his human limitations, the young apprentice sought a way to transform himself into a half-dragon.
Reveilaen was aware that his mater Vargo had once been a normal human but had discovered an alchemical process that turned him into a half-black dragon. The young mage concocted a scheme to steal the formula. ... ripping the page out of the mage's notes that contained the formula.
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| Khaa |
Posted - 09 Feb 2006 : 16:38:02
From my experience, I am a Half-wyrm, I was born from a humanoid, never mind that the humanoid was a Solar. But, I have always wanted to know what it would of been like to be born from an egg.... |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 08 Feb 2006 : 06:20:14
A while ago, after re-reading the original Dragon article on the Cult of the Dragon from issue #110, I thought about an adventure idea regarding the creation of a dracolich. Specifically, in attempting to create a dracolich, if the original body isn't around to accept the "spirit" of the dracolich (cultists sometimes send the living dragon on a suicide mission to wreak havoc before dying - then reuniting the corpse with the spirit in the phylactery etc.) the "spirit" stays in the phylactery until such time as it can get to its body or another host.
I conceptualised an adventure where the good guys (likely the Harpers) have attacked a Cult stronghold, destroyed the dragon's body and its phylactery (or attacked during the changeover period with the dragon's body faraway), but the dracolich's "spirit" has (very luckily) managed to enter a human host (member of the Cult) in the tumult, pending its new body reforming as per the rules. The Cultists, posing as simple folk, task the PCs with taking the host human (who is "ill" or "touched" - and will rave and hallucinate [and thereby give hints as to his/it's true nature]) to another place for 'healing' or 'sanctuary'. They'll also cook up a story that the host human is being assailed or harassed by "bad people" (for some concocted reason), which are of course in actuality the "good guys" (Harpers most likely).
The idea is that the PCs will do the bad guy's work for them, potentially come into conflict with the "good guys", and then eventually be double-crossed by the Cult when they deliver up the host human.
I never got past the conceptualising stage with this one, but I always thought it was an intriguing adventure premise.
-- George Krashos
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| wildmage |
Posted - 08 Feb 2006 : 04:01:45
Based on what Chosen of Bane expressed as his desire for what to do with the 1/2 dragon his players will meet (and likely slay), I would suggest the following:
Various cultists appear to enjoy having various non-dracolich undead servants on hand to help deal with trouble. In this case, I think the Wearer of Purple is especially interested in getting ahold of a 1/2 dragon corpse to create a special agent/bodyguard/minion. Have the 9th level rogue cohort bring the body back to his Wearer of Purple master, who happens to be a powerful necromancer. If the Wearer of Purple is at least 11th level, he/she could cast Create Undead and raise the 1/2 dragon as a ghoul. Except I would make it a Gravetouched Ghoul in this case (from Libris Mortis) so that it could retain its former class abilities and special attacks/qualities (inluding the breath weapon). This could make for an interesting evil undead antagonist who would want to take down the PCs for the following reasons:
1.) They killed him
2.) They stole his family inheritance (the dragon's hoard)
I think the Wearer in Purple can use the above 2 points as bargaining chips to convince the now undead 1/2 dragon to serve his will. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 06 Feb 2006 : 17:34:15
Not to mention, if you read Queen of the Depths, RLB does a pretty good job of explaining how much of a pain it is organizing everything so as to even create a dracolich. It takes a lot of work, and as such, doesn't seem like something you would causally do. While a lot of beleifs might vary from cell to cell, the core beleif is that dead dragons will rule the world entire . . . and its not too hard to assume that even in a fragmentary group "dead dragons" is defined by the Cult as true dragon dracoliches. Now if you want to say that some cells beleive that perhaps Tiamat wants her children to rule the world, or that Velsharoon wishes the undead dragons to rule beside him, etc. thats fine, but the point is that the Cult beleives that a) dracoliches are divine, and b) that they will rule the world.
Oh, and as pointed out in Queen of the Depths, not every cell is filled with beleivers at all . . .
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| Faramicos |
Posted - 06 Feb 2006 : 17:22:52
Precisely. And when discussing the dogma and dealings of the chult, you have to stick to the core believes of the organisation. Because there are many cells as you say, but they are all connected to the main powerbase of the Chult. In some way or another. And they all receive their directive from there. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 06 Feb 2006 : 17:10:34
quote:
Originally posted by ferratus
I think that everybody is viewing the Cult of the Dragon as being more monolithic than it is. The cult is a CE organization that is splintered into hundreds of cells, often with little contact with each other. What is more, about half the cult is made up of ex-Zhents and other rogue groups who are just in the cult because they've got money and Necromantic expertise to exploit.
So any statements in which you say "the cult of the dragon beleives this" or "the cult of the dragon does this" is immediately problematic. Now you can certainly hold the opinion that only dracoliches made from chromatic dragons of advanced age are cool. However, to ban the possibility outright seems a little ludicrous.
Now there is a central core of the Cult of the Dragon known as the "Keepers of the Secret Hoard". They keep the secret of the dracolich formula, so they're the ones who would set the standards. (If anyone knows who these people are, please tell me, I haven't been able to find them in any sourcebooks).
So the Keepers of the Secret Hoard are largely made up of "true beleivers" and thus you might assume that they would frown upon the practice of using the formula on anything other than dragons of mature adult size or larger. However, you might assume that the Keepers of the Secret Hoard instead beleive that undead dragons will rule, but the Keepers of the Secret Hoard will rule the undead dragons. As such, they might make dracoliches out of various lesser dragon-kin for the sake of convenience and power. We already know that some powerful cultists force dracolich transformation on unwilling dragons sometimes.
Now to get back to the original poster's question, I imagine that a half-dragon would become dracolich if it is either better for the Dracolich, or the Cult of the Dragon would find it useful to do so. Whether or not he was considered a member of the "sacred ones" would depend on who he could convince. I imagine the reception to that idea would be mixed at best.
But the fact remains that the Cult of the Dragon has only made dracoliches out of true dragons. The non-believers aren't making dracoliches; they're using the power, resources, and influence of the Cult in other ways. So I don't see anything problematic. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 06 Feb 2006 : 17:07:40
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
On a related note, what do people think the cult might make of skeletal dragons or other non-dracolich forms of draconic undead?
Wasn't Brimstone (the vampire dragon) unhappy with the fact that dracoliches were the favored bunch?
I'd say that non-intelligent draconic undead would have little regard. Non-dracolich draconic undead would be more highly regarded, but the Cult is all about dracoliches. |
| ferratus |
Posted - 06 Feb 2006 : 16:14:50
I think that everybody is viewing the Cult of the Dragon as being more monolithic than it is. The cult is a CE organization that is splintered into hundreds of cells, often with little contact with each other. What is more, about half the cult is made up of ex-Zhents and other rogue groups who are just in the cult because they've got money and Necromantic expertise to exploit.
So any statements in which you say "the cult of the dragon beleives this" or "the cult of the dragon does this" is immediately problematic. Now you can certainly hold the opinion that only dracoliches made from chromatic dragons of advanced age are cool. However, to ban the possibility outright seems a little ludicrous.
Now there is a central core of the Cult of the Dragon known as the "Keepers of the Secret Hoard". They keep the secret of the dracolich formula, so they're the ones who would set the standards. (If anyone knows who these people are, please tell me, I haven't been able to find them in any sourcebooks).
So the Keepers of the Secret Hoard are largely made up of "true beleivers" and thus you might assume that they would frown upon the practice of using the formula on anything other than dragons of mature adult size or larger. However, you might assume that the Keepers of the Secret Hoard instead beleive that undead dragons will rule, but the Keepers of the Secret Hoard will rule the undead dragons. As such, they might make dracoliches out of various lesser dragon-kin for the sake of convenience and power. We already know that some powerful cultists force dracolich transformation on unwilling dragons sometimes.
Now to get back to the original poster's question, I imagine that a half-dragon would become dracolich if it is either better for the Dracolich, or the Cult of the Dragon would find it useful to do so. Whether or not he was considered a member of the "sacred ones" would depend on who he could convince. I imagine the reception to that idea would be mixed at best. |
| Faramicos |
Posted - 06 Feb 2006 : 13:20:05
Probably honor them, but not to the degree of a dracolich. As long as their dragon form is a full scale draconic body they will be worshipped. |
| Arivia |
Posted - 06 Feb 2006 : 12:15:34
On a related note, what do people think the cult might make of skeletal dragons or other non-dracolich forms of draconic undead? |
| Faramicos |
Posted - 06 Feb 2006 : 11:27:00
My thought exactly... A crossbreed is in the nature of the species, an abomination is comparison to the true dragons. It is an interesting thought, but i cant see the Chult worshipping such inpure creations... No matter the level of their power. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 05 Feb 2006 : 15:01:18
Yeah, weather it can be done or not, as far as the Cult of the Dragon goes, having just finished up Queen of the Depths, it seems like anything that isn't a true dragon doesn't really get regarded very highly by the Cult. Furthermore, it seems that its a lot of trouble to create a dracolich, so its unlikely that half dragons or anything that isn't a full on dragon would be afforded the honor.
It kind of reminds me of the Trill in Star Trek. We eventually find out that just about any of them can receive a symbiont, but the races as a whole is told that only those that go through a rigorous process can recieve them and hope to survive. In other words, even if the Cult could turn half dragons and the like into dracoliches, it would be considered sacrilage to even suggest it. |
| Kaladorm |
Posted - 05 Feb 2006 : 10:25:55
'and undead half-dragons or perhaps quarter-dragons shall rule the world entire"
-the 'almost' teachings of Sammaster |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 04 Feb 2006 : 23:51:11
quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
I may have found a tenous ruling on this subject. On the Wizards site under Fight Club heading is a Dragonkin Half-dragon Dracolich cleric of Tiamat. The link:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20020301
The question is it offical or subjective?
Well... It is said that "This is about as much dragon as you can get in a creature that is not actually a dragon." So it's almost a dragon...
On the flip side, Fight Club entries are a class unto themselves. They basically pile as many templates/PrCs onto an NPC as they possibly can -- whether or not it actually makes sense.
Vinnamar is official. But, nothing in the write-up says what campaign setting -- if any -- he's from. It certainly doesn't say he's from the Realms.
We've seen the Cult of the Dragon use dragonkin as regular soldiers. You don't make a regular soldier into a lich.
Everything we have seen turned into a dracolich was a full-on dragon, not a half-dragon, a partial-dragon, or a vaguely-related-to-a-dragon. The Cult worships dead dragons -- it's the reason they exist. So, as far as I'm concerned, in the Realms, only true dragons can become dracoliches. |
| Arivia |
Posted - 04 Feb 2006 : 23:46:07
quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
I may have found a tenous ruling on this subject. On the Wizards site under Fight Club heading is a Dragonkin Half-dragon Dracolich cleric of Tiamat. The link:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20020301
The question is it offical or subjective?
It's not a Realms article, it's not in Realms canon---it isn't official. |
| Foxhelm |
Posted - 04 Feb 2006 : 22:59:11
I may have found a tenous ruling on this subject. On the Wizards site under Fight Club heading is a Dragonkin Half-dragon Dracolich cleric of Tiamat. The link:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20020301
The question is it offical or subjective? |
| khorne |
Posted - 02 Feb 2006 : 19:22:14
Hmmm.......Naaah, it would probably be regarded as heresy or something like that to turn a half dragon into a dracolich. |
| Chosen of Bane |
Posted - 02 Feb 2006 : 00:18:43
Actually it's quite the opposite. I didn't want the cutlists to take interest in the Half-Dragon that I am planning on using as an antagonist. However, if it was known that Dragon Cultists revere Half-Dragons and often turn them into Dracoliches than it would not be very consistent with the setting if I had the Dragon Cultist who is adventuring with the party attack the Half-Dragon and take his loot.
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| El Magnifico Uno |
Posted - 02 Feb 2006 : 00:13:28
Mmm.. Well in that case, just because there isn't something written in some book that says "And thusly did the nefarious Cult turn the wicked Half-Dragon into a fearsome Dracolich!!" doesn't mean you couldn't, shouldn't, or wouldn't.. Just means no FR author has written it (yet!).. Sure, as a group philosophy (if you could really call such a splintered mess of delusional fanatics a group with a coherently defined philosophy) the Cult probably wouldn't be too interested in turning a half-dragon into a (draco)lich since they aren't a "real" dragon and wouldn't fufill "the prophecy".. But a solitary fringe cell, or a megalomaniac half-dragon Wearer of Purple (hard to imagine, I know) could very well do it.. Why not?.. If you think it'd be cool, whose to stop you? A group of other internet posters shrilly declaiming that it's not canon? Pah! There are always exceptions to every rule, the key is making them small and rare exceptions.. Heck, might even make an intersting adventure where orthodox Cultists help the PCs defeat the heretical half-dragon loving Cultists, with the big question of who double-crosses who first(?!).. |
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