| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Alaundo |
Posted - 31 Jan 2007 : 17:09:43
Well met
This is a Book Club thread for Sacrifice of the Widow (Book 1 of The Lady Penitent), by Lisa Smedman. Please discuss chapters 12 - 13 and the Coda herein. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| TobyKikami |
Posted - 01 Jun 2007 : 01:44:38
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by TobyKikami
Cavatina, at least, seems to take it the latter way.
No question there, but her actions might not reflect the actual spirit of the statement. That was my point.
Still, the behavior of "Our Heroine" along with the apparent trend of the Eilistraeens in general doesn't really incline me to view such a phrase in a very fluffybunny light... which, I suppose, is why you pointed out the not-so-obvious possibility. Touché. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 01 Jun 2007 : 01:15:17
quote:
Originally posted by TobyKikami
Cavatina, at least, seems to take it the latter way.
No question there, but her actions might not reflect the actual spirit of the statement. That was my point. |
| TobyKikami |
Posted - 31 May 2007 : 14:14:47
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I've been thinking about the Eilistraeen "talking point" that's caused some controversy: "All drow will be brought to the light, willingly or no". That may be something Eilistraee intends to do (and again, we don't know the minds of gods), but I'm not positively sure that it's a mandate for followers of Eilistraee to convert people at swordpoint. After all, most converts aren't "willing" converts at the very beginning--it takes time for them to change. So the offending phrase might have more to do with spirituality and Eilistraee subtly affecting people than militant priestesses holding forced religious conversions.
Cavatina, at least, seems to take it the latter way. I might be misreading, but it definitely seems like she a) stops the Vhaeraunite in the cocoon from de-poisoning himself and b) suffocates him when he won't convert. And he was just hanging around wrapped up and poisoned, not exactly in a position where I imagine some "quick and dirty" messaging would be necessary. Of course, it's evident her heart wasn't exactly into the whole thing (at least when it comes to males) but if the Vhaeraunite had said okay under those circumstances I'd certainly consider it forced.
Juxtaposed with that incident, "willingly or no" does take on something of an ugly undertone. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 30 May 2007 : 23:47:03
quote:
Originally posted by initiate
Oh, and Valas Hune is in Road of the Patriarch. . . for about two seconds, with one mention and no dialogue. . . Sorry.
Yeah, that sounds about right. The fact that I didn't even remember him being mentioned should say something about his appearance.
I've been thinking about the Eilistraeen "talking point" that's caused some controversy: "All drow will be brought to the light, willingly or no". That may be something Eilistraee intends to do (and again, we don't know the minds of gods), but I'm not positively sure that it's a mandate for followers of Eilistraee to convert people at swordpoint. After all, most converts aren't "willing" converts at the very beginning--it takes time for them to change. So the offending phrase might have more to do with spirituality and Eilistraee subtly affecting people than militant priestesses holding forced religious conversions. |
| initiate |
Posted - 30 May 2007 : 15:08:14
Chyron, I agree with your thoughts on the book pretty much completely, [except being sort of ambivalent about the potential return of Pharaun Mizzrym. . . He lost some of his charm as a character around half way through the WotSQ in my opinion.]
I think you're entirely right about the War of the Spider Queen; while I certainly don't demand or want Realms shaking events in everything Realms related I read, I found myself feeling resentful, [also bored], that I'd been put through six books, filled with well realized but ultimately depressing characters, to reach the end we were given. So Lolth moved up the food chain; the duergar attacked Menzoberranzan and got beaten up; Gromph killed a rather remarkable lich, [took him long enough]. . . All cool and interesting, but six hardcover novels just so that Lolth could move house. . . That's quite the change of address card. I enjoyed each individual entry to one extent or another, and am glad the authors involved were given this chance to perhaps become a little more well known. It was the ultimate effect of the whole that I had problems with.
Again, I think you're right about Sacrifice of the Widow. It's too short rather than too long. I thought that some of the major events near the end of the book, while very interesting, were rushed over relatively quickly, Selvatarm's death in particular. It just somehow seemed summarized and rushed. It lacked epic punch. I just did not get the sense that: A. God. Had. Died. This Day. Selvatarm's "second death" made up for this somewhat, and was much more the stuff to give the readers, but I still wish the initial confrontation had been given a bit more leg room.
As for speculation about the Vhaeraun thing. . . I just dunno. Good thing Storm of the Dead is only four months away.
Oh, and Valas Hune is in Road of the Patriarch. . . for about two seconds, with one mention and no dialogue. . . Sorry.
|
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 30 May 2007 : 00:44:31
quote:
Originally posted by Chyron
As darkhuntress mentioned I was also miffed about Pharuan’s treatment at the conclusion of WotSQ and with all the resurrections going about, I was hoping that we might be seeing him again or possibly Valas Hune ( I have heard he pops up in Road of the Patriarch, which I am anxiously waiting for in July).
I read Road of the Patriarch fairly recently, but I am almost 100% sure Valas Hune does not appear in that book. Sorry to disappoint.
|
| Chyron |
Posted - 29 May 2007 : 07:14:30
I just finished reading this and thought I would leave a few comments.
Interestingly this book left me with a completely opposite feeling to that of the WotSQ series. By the end of that series I felt that I had just spent countless hours reading 6 novels to basically end where I began (with so few major changes coming about I questioned why the series actually warranted a sextology.)
Now however, we are given major changes in a single (and rather short) book. I ultimately felt that things were rushed along almost as if in response to many of the criticisms leveled at the WothSQ series. While this novel did a good job at addressing questions (like what Qilue was doing during those earlier all important events), I found myself never really connecting and liking any of the key players here.
I have read many of the theories and comments left by other posters and would like to pose some of my own.
I tend to agree that Vhaeraun was absorbed by Eilistraee, however I am not so sure that they fought. Since we are never given any direct insight into this confrontation in the novel and since his piece is still in play on the sava board, I am thinking that Vhaeraun may have willingly merged with Eilistraee. Perhaps as a temporary alliance. Recall that he apparently helps her secretly in the opening of the book.
Also as the events wind down Qilue is visible agitated and angry, which is mentioned as traits she has never before openly shown…it could be the stress of the prior events or it could be some of the darker effects of Eilistraee’s merging upon her chosen.
I agree with the posters above in that I found some of the Eilistraeen tenants of conversion a bit disturbing, but I did like the way that Q’arlynd found such striking similarities between the matriarchal nature of both Lolth’s and Eilistraee’s faith. Perhaps this is another reason for the merge of the two portfolios (to present a united front of males and females against Lolth).
As darkhuntress mentioned I was also miffed about Pharuan’s treatment at the conclusion of WotSQ and with all the resurrections going about, I was hoping that we might be seeing him again or possibly Valas Hune ( I have heard he pops up in Road of the Patriarch, which I am anxiously waiting for in July).
Finally, I get the feeling that the Cresent Sword is not fully intact and may in fact be corrupted some how. It just seemed overly domineering for a Eilistraeen artifact ( I was reminded of Creshinibon).
Still I am looking forward to see how the series pans out…but with such major events happening in the first book, one has to wonder, ‘where can the author go from here?’
anyway thats my two coppers 
|
| ywhtptgtfo |
Posted - 25 May 2007 : 17:10:28
quote:
Originally posted by darkhuntress The quote in my sig line is an old PC of mine who "retired" to become High Priestess of an Eilistraeen temple in the High Forest, and that pretty much sums up Eilistraeens in my eyes: they're every bit as tough as their Lolthian counterparts, even merciless at times (they have to be);
A rather blasphemous notion. Lolth constantly tests her followers and selects for the best among them. As a result, they should be considerably more powerful than the Eilistraeens, on average.
quote:
but it's a toughness tempered by wisdom.
Is that to say the Lolthlites are unwise? |
| initiate |
Posted - 20 Mar 2007 : 16:13:12
Finished the book,
Before I start, I apologize if ever I state my opinions too strongly when talking about this book. Discussing the over-all drow story always, always brings out the worst in me. Also, my arguments may drift back and forth between considering the Realms as a setting and considering it as a line of novels. I haven't yet read all the way through this thread, so I hope that I won't restate any opinions. I have much to say about both this section and the book in general, but I'll get some of my opinions out in the open first...
There have been some suggestions 'round these parts that Lisa Smedman might kill Lolth and that this would be "unfair". First and foremost, keep in mind the words of the Great Business Manual of WotC, (which I just made up, but can still, I think, quote accurately):
"Yay, and then did the marketing department stand tall, place hands o'ere hearts and cry:...
LONG! Live! LOLTH! May thy symbolic connections to ebon-skinned, lavender-eyed renegades translate into scads and scads of coin all down the ages! May thy spiders scurry for many years to come! No blade shall pierce thee. No spell shall sear thee; while we guard thee."
Seriously, all cynicism aside, unless I miss my guess by a very wide margin Lolth ain't going no place. I'm guessing again, but I'd say that its probably not Lisa Smedman's decision whether Lolth dies or not; such a choice is up to WotC. Lolth is central to the overall concept of the drow in the Realms, and the drow are in turn central to said Realms in so far as they're very popular. Thus, purely as a statement without subjective bias, I expect Lolth to remain enthroned for quite some time yet. Also, I seem to remember Ed Greenwood answering a question here at Candlekeep that he suspected Lolth would remain the most powerful drow deity, so there you go.
However, let's talk "what if?" I'll admit that I enjoy Lolth and her priestesses as villains. However, it boggles me that people can consider their failure "unfair". At the conclusion of the War of the Spider Queen, said Queen rose from her silence stronger than ever she had been before. The priestesses of Eilistraee sent into her plain were killed, their holy? sword broken, and their champion reduced to a groveling heap of semi-repentant angst and then transformed into a freakshow. Lolth. Was. Victorious. ... Hoo. Rah. Lolth's power has been proven on several other occasions which would take us too far off topic to discuss fully. Lolth's had her day; as a matter of fact, she's had several. I would shed no tears at the death of Lolth, but I do not expect to have the opportunity to abstain from said tears at the end of this trilogy.
If the problem has to do with a general proliferation of points for the side of good, then there's an interesting discussion going on over in the novels section called Are the "Good Guys" Winning Too Much? Lots of excellent discourse. My points very briefly, however, (lots of general spoiler): Within the last few years we've seen the return of Bane and a significant elevation in Lolth's status. Szass Tam appears to be readying a major bid for power in Thay. The Shades have returned and made significant gains, (though these may be called into question.) Several major invasions have been only bearly driven back. The elves have just recently regained Myth Drannor, and are only just getting to grips with the fact that they have done so. It may take a century or so to really manifest Miyeritar's potential, and one of the Chosen was lost in its reclamation. I'd say we're still pretty much square. Even if we're not, so what? Is it so terrible that those who aspire to freedom and are, at least theoretically, kind and caring should triumph over those who are cruel and callous? More specifically, is there such a great problem, (aside from the realism in the disparity of their power), in Eilistraee scoring a point or two, (or ten), against the hideously powerful, vile and cappricious Spider Queen? I don't wish to take the book club off topic, but these are some points to ponder and I think they do relate to this trilogy.
All this being said, I agree that the butchery of the entire Dark Seldarine would be a shame. While I hope that Kaiaransalee and Ghaunadaur are involved in the trilogy, I would also hope that they won't croak, (and even if they do, I would like it to at least occur in a rather more spectacular way than did Selvetarm's demise. More on that in another post, however.)
I would strongly suspect that we're not done with Vhaeraun. Again, more on this later, though other scribes have more or less covered it.
I apologize for the stridency of my opinions; like I said the drow have a tendency to get me worked up. (I believe Ed Greenwood's commented on the drow being a subject of much emotional strain among Realms fans. Interesting and rather amusing, really.)
Also, I liked the book. Specific opinions to come.
I would close with a point only vaguely related to the above. While my favourite-characters-can-do-no-wrong instinct urges me not to, I'd like to draw your collective attention to a quote spoken by Qilue right near the end of the book which goes something like: "Willingly or no, the drow will be brought into the light."
Willingly or no?
Hmm...
|
| darkhuntress |
Posted - 11 Mar 2007 : 02:46:02
quote:
That's a great point, and I am certainly of the opinion that "forced conversions" aren't really conversions at all. I can understand Cavatina espousing them (because we aren't being told that she's particularly merciful), but if the whole faith acts like that...it can't be right.
Not only are they not right, they're profoundly stupid, leading to situations like Q'arlynd's untimely betrayal (or worse, Halisstra's in Book VI of WotSQ). When you're dealing with a race as duplicitous as the Ssri'Tel'Quessir...dude, of course they're going to say anything to stay alive, up to and including taking false vows to another goddess. Eilistraee herself knows this. It's like accepting confessions under torture; of course the person's going to tell you what you want to hear. Whether or not it's the truth is a different matter.
I've had a thought about it, and I think it's just Cavatina's point of view that's the problem. From my understanding of the Darksong Knights, they're almost purely a militant order and they're not really concerned with making converts. So naturally she's going to have a different view of it than a priestess who spends most of her time tending the sick in the Hall of Healing or something.
...at least I hope. Because, if WotSQ and SotW are to be believed, I'm not really sure how the Dark Ladies have survived all these centuries. The quote in my sig line is an old PC of mine who "retired" to become High Priestess of an Eilistraeen temple in the High Forest, and that pretty much sums up Eilistraeens in my eyes: they're every bit as tough as their Lolthian counterparts, even merciless at times (they have to be); but it's a toughness tempered by wisdom. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 09 Mar 2007 : 19:47:36
Well I can see convert or die option as an interpertation of the Dark Maiden's dogma.
Though it is not that simple, (rule 1) doing "Evil" merits a swift death, being "Evil" does not (rule 2) as no Drow should die (unless rule 1 applies). Then is rule three, bring the message of a rightfully place exists on the surface, those under rule 2 clearly should be invited, of course those under rule 1 are dead (or the follower of Eilistraee is).
To be tech correct the rules in order I persent in this example clearly might not be the rules order others would use. Some clearly could insist no Drow should die is more important then they are evil. The Silverhair Knights also come close to forced conversion by stripping away alignment (in game terms) / sins (in Role Play terms) from an Evil Drow that makes conversion easier (those saved generally select alignment of the Silverhair knight - which would be good as a component). |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 09 Mar 2007 : 18:54:59
quote:
And, the negatives. I'm a huge fangirl of Eilistraee and her faith, and I've been really perturbed by the few portrayals of her clergy we've seen in the novels. This one was better, but the...fundamentalism bothered me greatly. Qilué's comment about leading the drow into the light "willingly or not" strikes me as a profoundly un-Eilistraeen sentiment to be espousing. I'm not sure when the Dark Maiden became about conversion by the sword, but it's a turn I don't like at all; to me, she's always been about giving drow a choice. After all, can someone truly be redeemed if they don't want to be?
That's a great point, and I am certainly of the opinion that "forced conversions" aren't really conversions at all. I can understand Cavatina espousing them (because we aren't being told that she's particularly merciful), but if the whole faith acts like that...it can't be right. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 09 Mar 2007 : 18:47:36
Just my opinion, but unlike several others here I didn't think Halisstra lacked for screen time--for a character who remains mysterious, I think she showed up quite a lot. It's my opinion that while the series is about her (among other things), she's not the protagonist...at least not at this time. |
| Uzzy |
Posted - 09 Mar 2007 : 18:41:05
Well, I just read the last 150 pages of this in one sitting, so it's all rather fresh in my mind. Firstly, I have to congratulate Lisa on an excellent novel. I simply cannot wait for September and book two now!
Seeing as the Halisstra was on the cover and focus of the blurb, it was slightly surprising how little screen time she had. No matter though, seeing as the other characters in the novel were nothing short of fantastic. Q'arlynd and Cavatina stand out for me as the real stars of this novel (who's progress in the book was so entwined with that of Halisstra's), with great support from the likes of Flinderspled and Jub. Qilue's scene with her in command of the Eilistraeens across Faerun via her scrying bowl was very interesting, I thought, as it showed them to be quite an organised and almost elite force.
All in all, I felt this book delivered on all fronts. Well written, well paced, excellent characters and some surprises. Is it me, or did this one novel have more of an impact on the Drow then the entire War of the Spider Queen novels? |
| darkhuntress |
Posted - 09 Mar 2007 : 07:28:31
New to the boards, but I just finished this book last night and just had to come yap about it. After the profound disappointment of WotSQ (I'm still bitter about Pharaun!) I was looking forward to Lady Penitent despite hating Halisstra, who apparently rode the short bus to the Demonweb Pits (the stupid burns, precious). I liked Smedman's entry in WotSQ a lot so I was disappointed by how much I didn't like this book after the first read. Dart Ambermoon pretty much summed up my thoughts on the matter, but I had some stuff to add.
Positives: I really liked some of the "off-hand" things, like the full moon gesture, that really gave some flavor to the proceedings. Also, Lisa Smedman very clearly did her homework! I like that, a lot. The sava game was brilliant, just brilliant. There was some beautiful imagery there, and also with the Eilistraeen rituals...I think Ms. Smedman has a really good feel for what they're like and a gift for describing them. Vhaeraun was awesome as usual, what can I say, I'm a chick with a thing for naughty masked pretty boys. The idea of him possibly teaming up with his sis makes me titter like a tittering thing. If it's true...well played, Smedman. Well played, indeed. And boy does it give me some ideas for my current FR campaign.
And, the negatives. I'm a huge fangirl of Eilistraee and her faith, and I've been really perturbed by the few portrayals of her clergy we've seen in the novels. This one was better, but the...fundamentalism bothered me greatly. Qilué's comment about leading the drow into the light "willingly or not" strikes me as a profoundly un-Eilistraeen sentiment to be espousing. I'm not sure when the Dark Maiden became about conversion by the sword, but it's a turn I don't like at all; to me, she's always been about giving drow a choice. After all, can someone truly be redeemed if they don't want to be? (Q'arlynd's actions show us very clearly the answer is "hells no") And when did the Eilistraeens get so misandrist? Sure, she only allows female priests, but I always chalked that up to a "women's mysteries" type of thing, like the mystery cults of ancient times where the women went off to do their thing and the men went off to do theirs. I couldn't stand any of the Eilistraeens in this novel, up to and including Qilué. If they were all as self-righteous and stupid as Cavantina 'n' pals, I'm not sure how they managed to survive and thrive all these years.Then again, with enemies as stupid as the Selvetarglin...ugh, just, no. Why on earth were they trying to break the seal on Cthulhu Ghaunadaur, anyway? Did they really think they could just waltz in, off Qilué, off Ghaunadaur and turn the Promenade into a Gold's Gym or something? Dude, WTF?
I won't comment on Selvetarm's death, I've always thought him boring as toast and am not really sad to see him go, but I agree with the folks who said there was a wasted opportunity for angst with his backstory.
The thing I disliked most on a storytelling basis was the fact that at no point in the book did I feel like any of the main characters were in actual danger. People being raised left and right sort of kills the sense of danger in a story and renders death pretty meaningless. I'm not really sure it's fair to criticize Ms. Smedman for it though. I think it's just one of those game-mechanic things that's disastrous when you're actually trying to tell a story, and one that can't really be ignored when you're dealing with oodles of powerful priests. Some fanboy somewhere will bring up what I like to call the Aerith Conundrum ("Why didn't they just Phoenix Down her?"). I couldn't be bothered to care about Iljerne's (sp?) death, despite how much I liked her in the Liriel books, because a) she was basically just a 2-d cardboard standee in this book and b) she'll just be raised anyway, like darn near everyone else.
Also, I'll admit to skimming most of the end fight with Qilué, because it was a stark reminder of just how overpowered and boring the Seven Sues Sisters are. Oh noes, Qilué got bitten. lol Selvetarglin, she's immune to everything. Oh noes, Qilué is cornered. Wait, she pwns them with munchkinfire, lol hax. Ye Gods, I hate them. Granted this also wasn't Ms. Smedman's fault, because really, Qilué's a legacy character in canon and the most prominent follower of Eilistraee can and should be used in a series that is ostensibly about the goddess' gamble for survival. It just reinforced my blinding hatred of the Seven Sues and why they've simply never existed in any of my FR campaigns. The prospect of Qilué vs. Lolth does intrigue me though, if only because it's one of the few times that someone's sacred cow's gonna become a Big Mac.  Also, too much happened too fast. I found it totally implausible the way Cavatina just waltzed into the Demonweb Pits and grabbed the Crescent Blade like it was nothing, particularly after the grief Quenthel's crew went through in WotSQ (and they weren't mortal enemies of Big Mama). I really hope that's something that is addressed in future books, because it just seemed way too easy. Ditto with whatever on earth happened with Vhaeraun and Eilistraee--that was pretty anticlimactic, despite the coolness of the moonfire the Vhaeraunites found themselves conjuring (I'm still laughing, 24 hours later. That just wins.). A confrontation as vitally important as that deserves to not happen offscreen.
Man, I really don't want to be such a negative nellie...I still think the premise of the series is sound and there's some awesome potential in a shakeup of my favorite pantheon. I like Smedman's writing style a lot and while I disagree with some of her characterization choices, I really like her take on the drow and their deities. I just think things should unfold a little slower in the future so we can get to know people and get a better feel for their motivations. I mainly felt like Ricky Ricardo when I put the book down; "Lisa, you got some 'splainin' to do!" |
| Braveheart |
Posted - 08 Mar 2007 : 09:27:52
quote:
Originally posted by Dart Ambermoon
... nor why on earth Selvetarm was looking for abyssal daisies during the whole scene, not paying any attention to his surrounding.
I think that the attacks on the shrines and the temple of Eilistraee were a task that needed the full concentration of Selvetarm. Being a God of lesser power (or a demi-god) doesn't make you automatically a all seeing, all knowing entity 
|
| Dart Ambermoon |
Posted - 07 Mar 2007 : 04:36:07
Well met,
after a far too long absence from these fine halls I find its discussion is still inspiring. But to the point(s) here...
I must admit that I wasn´t too keen on the trilogy as, firstly, Lisa Smedman´s FR novels aren´t among what I would consider my personal favourites.
Secondly, by the end of WotSQ I didn´t give a rat´s furry backside about Halisstra anymore...in fact she annoyed the heck out of me.
Furthermore I was disturbed, big time, by the premise of the prologue. Lives of deities being wagered? It struck me as somewhat, hmm, irresponsible (on Eilistrae´s side) to wager the fate of all my followers on such a dare. And that is something I quite frankly would not have expected of her. Therefore I started on the novel from a "wft - please don´t tear the Realms asunder just yet again" perspective. Added to that I wasn´t too keen on another major shake-up of the drow so soon after he last one, but that´s neither here no there...
On the plus side, I will absolutely hand it to Lisa Smedman that this as her finest FR work regarding literature per se (in my humble opinion). I thought it was mostly very well written and managed to set a good atmosphere. I relly enjoyed reading it. I also noted (and applauded) the aforementioned nods to other FR fiction. I was surprised (positively so) at Halisstra´s role in the novel (aince it isn´t all about her) and I really liked her brother as character to some degree, especially for his difference in ambition and goals, regarding most other Drow.
The twists and turns in the story...hmm, I´m not buying all of them, which means I´m not entirely sure all of them are "logical" in light of plot and character, but that is only a feeling and I naturally will wait to see if that changes by the trilogy´s finale (which, of course, is the question that matters).
The "slaying" of two deities has been richly commented on, and I will wait and see what comes of it in the next two parts, although I wasn´t thrilled about it. But that may change, concerning where it leads.
I have three gripes about the novel, really...
1) The plot seemed just a little too construed. Thaleste finding something, only to be done in since they let a novice wander around alone in these dire times? After what had happened before? Ahem, and generally her finding something where the rest of the temple staff can find diddly squat? Jub overhearing just a little, which doesn´t help anything, and promptly buying the farm? Both Melarns shifting seeming allegiances so often, it makes you wonder if they´re not just both nutcases to begin with? Don´t get me wrong, I´m all for twists and turns, but some parts just seemed to twist and turn for the sake of twisting and turning. Now, I know all of that has been woven together, but I just didn´t buy it sometimes. It reminded me of "intelligent character must do s.th. stupid for dramatic suspense´s sake". A slower pace and less rushing to knife-edge decisions would have sat better with me. Not sending someone to the Abyss all on her lonesome with an entity posessed by Lolth and an absolute lack of planning to reclaim a prizless artifact for one. Sending an unproven to be the linchpin in an attempt to foil an attempted murder of a Godess the other.
2)I still don´t care for most of the characters. Cavatina annoyed the heck out of me with her sheer lack of concern for anything but her own thrill. Halisstra continuing her "Eilistrae forsook me.../Eilistrae didn´t forsake me.../I´m still a loose cannon, but one with fiendish powers now"-shtick. Vhaeraun (IF he relly died) for being so blatantly stupid to attempt his sister´s assassination on her home turf...and for having no real motivation for killing her just now anyway. Vhaeraun´s clerics planning on a deicide...exactly why? The clerics of Eilistrae, who I always regarded as being very adapt at defending themselves, since they managed to survive being surrounded by enemies for a long while, just being caught of guard again and again. Selvetarm for fricking scratching his chin while he was being killed...I know it has been adressed, but I thought it was tremendously stupid.
3)Which brings me to the whole scene in which Lolth´s champion dies...he is in control.He has her pinned down. He must surely recognize an artifact of another God (even though I´m not so sure about the Crescent Blade still serving Eilistrae´s faith) being bandied around under his nose. Neither have I understood how Halisstra jumped around there with the blade in her hands, nor how Cavatina actually managed the strike she managed, nor why on earth Selvetarm was looking for abyssal daisies during the whole scene, not paying any attention to his surrounding. Geez, I´d hate that in a mortal villain already, leave alone a God. So that scene really didn´t convince me at all. I agree about Lolth sacrificing him for a bigger gain, I just didn´t like how it was done. It seemed, again, like..."don´t do nothing, we need you to bite the bullet...now".
All in all, yes I did enjoy the novel...and I will wait if the next parts can make sense out of what didn´t make sense to me in the this one. (I just hope this doesn´t end with the race of the Drow unified under one deity, because all the others have beeen blasted to pieces.) |
| Lord Rad |
Posted - 01 Mar 2007 : 23:20:58
Loved the scene where Q'arlynd ends up on the Fugue Plain! Reminds me of the scenes in Prince of Lies.
What an end to a book! Fantastic!  I was shocked when Selvatarm was killed. With all the weapons turning to spiders and his faithful getting no response.
The end battles were great. It was good to see Qilue in the fray and some brutal times, such as Iljrene being split in two.
I belted through this part of the book as it was so gripping and must say that I thoroughly enjoyed this book and is by far Lisa Smedman's best work to date, IMO. I can't wait for book 2!
Fans of drow, WotSQ and FR should love this book. I'll definately be recommending this one. |
| Trizzt08 |
Posted - 22 Feb 2007 : 03:08:25
Oh I knew it was going to take centuries it just seemed kinda suspicious to me is all. It would be cool to see whats going on in the city just to see how Q'arlynd would react to meeting ancient ancestors |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 20 Feb 2007 : 18:27:19
quote:
Originally posted by Trizzt08
I was just going through the Blackstaff page and it got me remembering that the High Mooor was cleansed. As I mentioned in that page I forget when Blackstaff is placed chronlogically but if it coincides with this series then Q'arlynd will be headed toward an uncovered Miyeritar that may be in the hands of other elves, sharns, or other reawakened occupants.
Well...
1) From what Steve Schend has said, the High Moor will actually take several centuries to be cleansed. If you don't believe me, by all means read his own words on that subject.
2) Only one very small part of the former Realm was raised, not every single settlement that made up Miyeritar...and there really is no reason why Q'arlynd should be able to find it just by bumping into it. |
| KaeYoss |
Posted - 20 Feb 2007 : 16:57:25
quote:
Originally posted by Trizzt08
Intersting theory. It makes lots of sense.
Yeah. It's just what a trickster god would do. And Eilistraee might think the prospect of freeing the drow from Lolth to promising to let sibling rivalry get in the way.
quote:
But how long do you think they'd work with each other?
Don't know. Not loo long? But they don't have to, really. They could execute their plans in a moment (like they experience time. Half a year is but the blink of an eye for deities). The last book is due in a bit more than a year - about 15 months. That's something like 6 months Realms-Time.
quote:
Why didn't Vahearun at least give his clerics some warning or inkling of his plans?
Neither Vhaeraun nor Eilistraee gave their followers any inkling of their plans. I guess it would be too easy for spies to get word of it, or for spider kissers to torture it out of some follower of one of the siblings. I think only the chosen know - and that's why Quilué on edge like that.
quote:
Maybe Elistraee captured him? Do you think he'd turn from his current alignment and portfolio?
Actually, I could see him becoming CN, but I think he'd keep his portfolio - he's best suited for it and someone's got to do the job.
There are some Vhaeraunites who follow a theory (many Vhaeraunites would call it a heresy) that Vhaeraun wants his followers to set their differences with the elves aside, so there is one unified, strong elven race, that would be once again a major power on Faerûn, and from this position of strength, would trade and ally with the humans (halflings are of no consequence, and dwarves and gnomes - especially duergar and svirfneblin - aren't to be trusted).
I could see him turning to that belief under his sister's guidance.
I could also see him emphasize his liberator aspect more and push the agenda of equality between genders - and Eilistraee being influenced by that, so she stops favouring females, at least to that extent.
Vhaeraun's followers would probably not change too much: They'd still be masters of stealth and subterfuge who like to trick people, but they would do that on a more personal level, like rogues' guilds.
quote:
The whole Sava board thing you mentioned got me thinking. It's obvious that Vahaerun(as much can obvious with him) has thrown in with Elistraee but he is a piece on the board so couldn't she say sacrifce him like Lolth did Selvetarm?
I guess she could. I just say that she hasn't yet. I'm not quite sure she would, either.
quote:
All of this behind the scenes schemming is making me dizzy. I doubt that all the guys have disappeared from the Drow Pantheon. maybe thats what all the fuss is about. Men stand up the women are taking over :) lol
There's still Ghaunadaur, if... it can ge called male, or really a true part of the pantheon.
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
What I have seen was Vahearun placed himself as a Lolth peice so Eilistraee could not scarifice the peice if the rules of Sava are similar to the rules of Chess. Of course Vahearun could have placed himself on the board as his only player or as an Eilistraee peice, disquiesed as a Lolth peice. As far as the game goes, before AO Lolth and Eilistraee offered their lives. Vahearun is not on record of agreeing to such a deal.
Exactly. Vhaeraun put himself onto the board, and I'm sure he knew exactly that his piece would be captured in the next move. He might be many things, but he's not suicidal, so there must be more to this move.
quote:
The children working together is somewhat credible now. During the "Silence" each tried on their own to take out Lolth, both failed and it is posible that Lolth gained in power. The two have greater reason now to work together at least for a short time to try to reduce Lolth's power. Of course one wonders what type of deal might have been made (if the children are working together) because there are a few points they agree on, but also a few points they opose each other on.
Who knows? I doubt that they will ever love eath other like brethren, but they might have called a short truce to get rid of Lolth, once and for all. After that, they go their separate ways again, maybe with an agreement not to step on each other's toes for a while. (Of course, the whole episode could affect them to the point where they forge an uneasy alliance.
quote:
As for Vahearun telling his clergy that he is playing a trick on Lolth - this would not occur at all. Lolth would learn of such in short order by her divine abilities as the word spread or by one of her agents torturing a captured cleric. Eilistraee likewise would not tell her followers of such a deal, perhaps more so because she put her life at risk.
I see we're in agreement on that. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 19 Feb 2007 : 22:24:14
From what I have read, spoiliers and the sample chapter only, the book has not come near where I live. What I have seen was Vahearun placed himself as a Lolth peice so Eilistraee could not scarifice the peice if the rules of Sava are similar to the rules of Chess. Of course Vahearun could have placed himself on the board as his only player or as an Eilistraee peice, disquiesed as a Lolth peice. As far as the game goes, before AO Lolth and Eilistraee offered their lives. Vahearun is not on record of agreeing to such a deal. Selvetarm on the other hand clearly was a piece of Lolth, he clearly under control of Lolth and if Lolth lost her life first, his would not last long (he is/was not powerful enough to make a death deal and survives with Lolth's permission and protection - as well as in effect being Lolth's slave).
The children working together is somewhat credible now. During the "Silence" each tried on their own to take out Lolth, both failed and it is posible that Lolth gained in power. The two have greater reason now to work together at least for a short time to try to reduce Lolth's power. Of course one wonders what type of deal might have been made (if the children are working together) because there are a few points they agree on, but also a few points they opose each other on.
As for Vahearun telling his clergy that he is playing a trick on Lolth - this would not occur at all. Lolth would learn of such in short order by her divine abilities as the word spread or by one of her agents torturing a captured cleric. Eilistraee likewise would not tell her followers of such a deal, perhaps more so because she put her life at risk. |
| Trizzt08 |
Posted - 19 Feb 2007 : 21:42:22
Intersting theory. It makes lots of sense. But how long do you think they'd work with each other? Why didn't Vahearun at least give his clerics some warning or inkling of his plans? Maybe Elistraee captured him? Do you think he'd turn from his current alignment and portfolio? The whole Sava board thing you mentioned got me thinking. It's obvious that Vahaerun(as much can obvious with him) has thrown in with Elistraee but he is a piece on the board so couldn't she say sacrifce him like Lolth did Selvetarm? Not saying she would but Vahearun doesn't strike me as the type to put his life in the hands of others. He could be like Vesharoon an undergod so to speak. All of this behind the scenes schemming is making me dizzy. I doubt that all the guys have disappeared from the Drow Pantheon. maybe thats what all the fuss is about. Men stand up the women are taking over :) lol |
| KaeYoss |
Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 19:31:46
I'm not at all sure that Vhaeraun croaked. There's several things that indicate, on several levels, that all is not what it seems:
First of all, there's the technical stuff:
The last fight between two drow deities took weeks: Selvetarm and Vhaeraun fighting before Lolth's old lair was one mad fireworks of blows on the physical, mental and magical level. There's an adventure hook about it in PGtF, where it is said that the conflict threatens to spill all over the planes. But Eilistraee is supposed to kill Vhaeraun in 15 minuts?
(Of course, she could have pulled off the old "pretend to be sleeping to let the assassin get near and jump on him" trick, but I'm not sure of that)
Then, there's the "Sava Game" references:
In the first chapter, Vhaeraun sneaks in and exchanges a slave piece with another (in the Coda, we learn that it was his own piece), a piece which is promptly used by Lolth to bait Eilistraee. Only after the piece was captured did they notice that the piece has been messed with, and Lolth had an outbreak of anger. Vhaeraun let himself be seen by his sister when he came in.
Now, I really doubt that Vhaeraun would willingly put himself in a position where he would be killed, just to be funny or anything. (Again, it could be that he didn't see the piece being captured only a moment later, but I doubt that).
Another thing is Selvetarm's piece: After the roll resulted in snake eyes and Selvetarm's piece was captured, Eilistraee insisted on the sacrifice being carried out, and Lolth takes the piece and destroys it - and Selvetarm himself is destroyed with the piece that is a representation of himself.
But Vhaeraun's piece isn't destroyed - only captured.
It would seem to me that a piece being captured doesn't always mean that the entity it represents would be killed - they could be, well, captured and removed from the game without being killed (Q'arlynd's piece disappeared from the table, too, and that was just because he stopped caring about Eilistraee and Lolth and Selvetarm)
In fact, it would seem that, at least for deities, they got to make special arrangements to bet their lives on their pieces. Eilistraee took a vow before Ao to bet their very lifes on the game, and Selvetarm probably was bound, too, because he openly entered the game. It's quite possible that Vhaeraun got around that somehow (maybe by not announcing his presence). Plus, again, there's that captured piece vs. destroyed piece thing.
And there's more:
As someone already pointed out: We got two explicit death scenes for Selvetarm, with practically 3 deaths for him: He himself is killed in the pits by the sword (and all his clerics lose their power at once), and his sava piece, and his representation in whatever place the "gaming room" represents are destroyed.
But Vhaeraun doesn't have any of this: Just his piece being captured and everyone in the Realms talking about how he's dead now.
I somehow doubt that they/she(Lisa Smedman) would leave out that epic fight if the outcome would be what everyone in the Realms thinks it is, especially after she told how Selvetarm is offed - twice. This "in further news" treatment makes me suspicious.
Another thing is that it is never actually stated as fact that he's dead: His clerics think so because their magic seems to have been Eilistraeeized, and Q'arlind and Quilué tell everyone that it's so, and that Eilistraee told Quilué that she took over his business. But we never hear Eilistraee say it. (Doesn't mean anything, but it surely is one more of those things that cast doubt on the outcome).
There's actually some indication that Vhaeraun wasn't killed:
The magic didn't seem to work as it was supposed to (consume the souls of the Priestesses), but Vhaeraun didn't get suspicious. And was actually there - physically - a moment before, so it wouldn't have slipped past him. It seemed that he knew something was off. He's exactly not the god who can be tricked like that. He's the one doing the tricking.
Also, notice how Quilué made a big deal about not telling anyone that the Eilistraeeans messed with the ritual and Eilistraee was warned? I'd say that normally, Eilistraee - and her chosen - would want everyone to know that they tricked the trickster god. I think it's not unlikely that they don't want that to be known so noone suspects anything fishy going on.
Plus, during the conversation with cavatina, she had a little moment there. She openly displayed anger, somethign she usually didn't do. Cavatina thought that the possibility of Eilistraee being corrupted by Vhaeraun's power unsettled Quilué, but I don't think that's it. After all, they (Eilistraee and Quilué) had ample time to think the whole plan through, and with what happened to Selvetarm back then (taking on the essence of a demon and getting the arachnophilia and evil to boot), they should have anticipated this, and wouldn't have gone through with the plan if they even thought it likely. I guess even though Eilistraee would want Vhaeraun to die, she wouldn't want to corrupt herself in the process. And I'm not sure she wants him to die: She's always going on about getting people to seek redemption, and Vhaeraun is much more likely to be redeemed than Lolth.
To get to the point: I think it's possible that Vhaeraun and Eilistraee are in this together, and Quilué, though seeing the necessity of the plan, is angry at having to work with the Vhaeraunites.
And, finally, there's the whole thing with the mask being blown into Eilistraee's face. It may be Vhaeraun's influence manifesting, but it could also be a message from a very much alife Vhaeraun.
quote:
Originally posted by Trizzt08
LOL you really don't want Vhaerun dead huh?
I don't know what's funny about it.
It should be obvious that noone would just want his favourite deity gone. And if it's not clear that said deity's actually dead, they would of course compile the indications to the contrary. If they thought "well, it's not so sure, but he's probably dead now. Let's watch the Bulls game now" it wouldn't be that much of a favourite deity.
quote:
Well it's been stated pretty clearly, he's dead.
No, it hasn't. Some characters in the novel said it - none of them divine, so they could very well be tricked. If it comes to that, even the gods can be tricked. Or those characters could have lied.
But nowhere does it state as a fact that he's really dead. The matter isn't clear at all.
quote:
But don't fret, there will be a new drow god or two.
That's a huge comfort to those fans who would lose their favourite deity here.
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
I think much of the "confusion" can be cleared up by not trying to think this out to many levels deep. This was penned by a human and not a Drow who has been planning on fooling us fr centuries.
So humans are stupid? All those drow how have been planning on fooling anyone for centuries were created and written by humans.
I'm quite sure that Lisa Smedman (or most other FR authors out there) could very well write a novel with several levels of deception, and if said novels were about drow, they would probably do so.
quote:
Two things I thought of that convince me he is dead. First the idea that it would actually be very easy for Elistraee to catch him by surprise because of Vhaerauns arogance of his own superiority to Elistraee. He would never have considered killing her in her own realm if he did not think he was so vastly superior to her that he would not believe her defeating him was possible.
You're still assuming that Vhaeraun actually wanted to kill his sister. That's not so clear.
quote:
Second was the mask on Elsitraee, it seemed to fit her need to "fool" Vhaeraun's followers for a time.
Or it was a sign from Vhaeraun himself...
quote:
The clincher for me was when Cavatina asked Quilue if it was true that Vhaeraun was dead, she confirmed how she warned Elistraee and she prevailed.
That, in fact, is one of the things that make me think that Vhaeraun ins't dead. It was all too easy, too neat for the Eilistraeeans
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
1) Faked his death and "hidden" on Eilistraee to convince her that he was dead, so he can wait out the game in relative safety.
2) Been nearly defeated and made a deal with Eilistraee to aid her in a partnership against Lolth, and since she has the upper hand, he would be the "junior" partner in the venture.
3) Vhearaun just plain faked his death and hid in the planes, letting Eilistraee have his worshippers until he has a more advantageous chance to pop back into the picture.
Or, 4) Vhaeraun and Eilistraee planned it together. Sure, they have their differences (hate each other like poison), but Eilistraee is always one to forgive, and Vhaeraun is probably too pragmatic to let his dislike for his sister getting in the way of getting even with his mother, which he hates more than anything else.
It could work something like this:
They slip their respective worshippers the means to open a portal, allegedly so Vhaeraun can kill Eilistraee, and the Eilistraeeans get to warn her deity. Vhaeraun enters Eilistraee's domain, 20 minutes later they say he's dead, Jim, Eilistraee took over his outfit, look at the crazy moonmagic they now have to cast. They tell noone, except maybe their respective chosen (Quilué seemed irritated in the book. This could be from thinking about her goddess and Vhaeraun being in league).
All this gets Vhaeraun into a position where he can strike, unexpectadly, at someone. Probably Lolth. So when the big battle comes, and some Eilistraeean (Quilué or whoever) gets to go after Lolth with the Crescent Blade, and Eilistraee herself joining the fray, it will probably go not well for the enemies of Lolth - until, out of nowhere, comes the guy everyone left for dead, and plunges his swords into Lolth.
Actually, I'd say it's the best plan they had yet. Sending Halisstra with the sword to kill Lolth was doomed to fail. It might work against Selvetarm (with a distraction - the Lady Penitent turning on the spider kissers), but against Lolth? Nah. But now they have Eilistraee, the "surprise" Swordwielder to go after Lolth, and when Lolth fends off both, out of the shadows comes the Wildcard, the real surprise, and catches his mother flat-footed.
quote:
Part of me is very dubious about the simple manner in which three drow just happened to be able to work High Magic
Yeah, as if the whole High Magic part was just staged, and both deities willingly opened the portal.
quote:
. . . there are more players in this game, I think, then we have seen right now.
One is actually mentioned in the book: Melvag had been killed and raised once - by some fiend, who also told him about the scroll.
I guess we'll learn who that was before the Trilogy's over |
| Trizzt08 |
Posted - 13 Feb 2007 : 07:06:00
I was just going through the Blackstaff page and it got me remembering that the High Mooor was cleansed. As I mentioned in that page I forget when Blackstaff is placed chronlogically but if it coincides with this series then Q'arlynd will be headed toward an uncovered Miyeritar that may be in the hands of other elves, sharns, or other reawakened occupants. It was a city founded by Dark elves and Wild Elves so a part of me is wondering if this will be the first above ground Drow city. Sharn are or were worshipped by Elistraee and as eveyone knows the Elistraeen drow really don't have a city to call home, plus the Evermeet elves will be busy with Cormanthyr. If this comes to pass I'm changing my name to Aloundo after the phrophet of Candlekeep |
| Trizzt08 |
Posted - 13 Feb 2007 : 04:57:52
Another question for anyone to consider. IF Elistraee did indeed take Vhaerun's portfolio then how do you think cities run by his clerics or places where they have great influnence will take this, like say Sshamath? And what of Clerics of Selevetarm will they turn on Lloth or turn to her worship. I think he has an underrated influence on the marshall prowess of the drow. Ghaunder seems to be making moves of his own what I couldn't fathom yet maybe getting his avatar released? Kiaransalee hasn't done much of anything it seems maybe former worshippers of Selvetarm would turn to her for vengence agains't Lolth or Elistraee for taking their god? So many questions and it's just the first book. I can't wait till the second one(and the one about Phaerun).Oh and my prediction is Phaerun becomes a god of drow magic.Prays to Mystra(and AO)lol
EDIT I stand corrected on the Portfolio issue, confused the two boxes of info I was kinda upset when I wrote the previous replies |
| TobyKikami |
Posted - 13 Feb 2007 : 04:53:33
quote:
Originally posted by Trizzt08
Oh and if you feel like answering any question I have Rinonalyrna Fathomlin then please answer me this. Out of these portfolios of Vhaerun's which would Elistraee as we know her have a problem with?
Theives,Drow males,Half-Drow,Assassins,Poisoners,Shadowdancers or Rouges.
Er, those aren't Vhaeraun's portfolios, at least in my copy of Faiths and Pantheons. Those are his frequent worshipers.
His portfolios are thievery, drow males, and, yes, evil activity on the surface.
Evil activity on the surface is, as previously stated, rather obvious, while drow males are comparatively innocuous. Thievery is a bit iffy but given that she's said to chum around with Erevan Ilesere, I think she might be okay with that. |
| Trizzt08 |
Posted - 13 Feb 2007 : 04:36:22
Oh and if you feel like answering any question I have Rinonalyrna Fathomlin then please answer me this. Out of these portfolios of Vhaerun's which would Elistraee as we know her have a problem with?
Theives,Drow males,Half-Drow,Assassins,Poisoners,Shadowdancers or Rouges. To me the only things inherently evil are poisoners and Assassins other than that where exactly would she have a problem?? evil activity on the surface is a goal of Vhaeruns but not part of his portfolio so even if she took his portfolios she wouldn't be bound to his schemes or alignment preferance. The reason why I said she'd take on his whorshippers regardless of alignment is because she'd want to try and convert them first and she just got them. Anyone who doesn't want to worship her doesn't have to but she'll give them a "trial period" if you may, like Mystra. you think she has no former clerics of the Old Mystra that where LE and still are?? Plus she wouldn't accept new clerics who are evil just the old ones. Maybe she'll make sure they perform a boon for her because they are evil to keep their clerical powers. Who knows we'll just have to read and see and keep guessing.
On the last paragraph on page 302 leading on to 303 it clearly states that the Vhaerunites will draw power from Elistraee. So I guess she is cool with evil activity on the surface ehh j/k. maybe she''ll change the clergys aims from witin |
| The Sage |
Posted - 13 Feb 2007 : 04:23:17
Okay, let's try and keep things civil... shall we?
|
| Trizzt08 |
Posted - 13 Feb 2007 : 04:12:18
Umm I wasn't being rude and I'm not as "new" as you think. Ive been coming to these boards for almost three years now I just didn't post here, and I don't take things at face value, I'm just going with my theory like everyone else who's posted.I take that as an insult to my intelligence, knowledge, and opinion which everyone is welcome to post and the reason why I don't post more often. I never assumed what any reader wanted. With that said, surely she'll have a problem with the evil activity on the surface she's a good aligned goddess,but she's also one that would try to convert them to the light so to speak.It's also the reason I mentioned her becoming CN. She knew what she was taking on when she did it and now she has to solve her own problem.If you read my post then you would know I never dismissed Vhareun coming back I just said I doubt it, shoot I'm not the author just a huge fan of Forgotten Realms.ohh and by the way I was talking about his PORTFOLIOS which since you are a Great Reader and all should know from Faiths and Pantheons what I'm talking about. So come back when you know what your talking about. End argument I did not come here to "beef" with anyone just share thoughts with like minded individuals, I do like to "debate" things with people,everyones intitled to there own opinion, that I don't mind, but not border line insults. Thank you |
|
|
