| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Logoi |
Posted - 02 Apr 2014 : 03:07:54
Does anyone know books about drows after the "lady penitent trilogy"?
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| 23 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 09 Apr 2014 : 19:12:29
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Their communities tend to be fairly isolated from each other. But yes. Another matter is that there's no reason to assume they wouldn't get more fiend blood influx. We're talking about the folk accustomed to untransformed Glabrezu-on-Drow action, after all. Do the foocubi and cambions even count as something very exotic? 
-Not initially. After the Descent, the newly transformed Drow settled primarily into two major groups: Telantiwar and Guallidurth. We know that Mieritaari Dark Elves/Drow sought out Ilythiiri Dark Elves/Drow during this time, to ban together for protection (and, in light of what was discussed in the Lady Penitent books, perhaps because they were all "attracted" to faerzress' that existed nearby either settlement, so it would stand to reason that Dark Elves/Drow groups from other Elven nations that existed at the time would as well. We know there were also groups that didn't (those that fled to the lands beneath Thay), so it's not a 100% accounted for thing, so the idea that Drow without the magical taint existed for at least a few generations after the Descent. But, with the collapse of those two settlements and the diaspora from them that extended across the Underdark to form other settlements...it stretches the limits of believably after that much time elapsing. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 09 Apr 2014 : 08:24:10
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Logoi
what happens after the end of the Lady Penitent... what happens exactly to Hallistra? What happens with the drow-turned-into-dark elves?
-On that, there is nothing.
-But, when you think about it logically: the ones that transformed probably died or were killed pretty quickly. Reverting back into Dark Elves, it is most likely that they lost their darkvision
Yup, was discussed in the previous LP clusterfluffle thread, too.
quote:
-As I am remembering it, the Descent curse was reversed when Q'whatever and others negated it using their own Elven High Magic. Eilistraee and Vhaeraun weren't the ones who did it.
Zigzags of continuity reduced the scope of this event to... negligible, really. Descendants of one specific tribe except followers of Lolth and no-matter-how-diluted planetouched bloodline(s)? No kidding? 
All in all, it's hard to even tell what this was supposed to achieve other than a laughably clumsy attempt to retcon away old dark elves.
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Well it is hard to say what Brown Elves are or at least I never saw any stats for them.
"Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves" mentioned the possibility to revert it via a High Magic ritual, it says "(judge as a moon elf)". Then again, in C:EoE stats don't differ between subraces. I'd simply leave stats unchanged and replace Drow abilities as such with basic elven abilities (sleep resistance, senses, etc).
quote:
Qilué Veladorn, that lore spoke of the Seventh Sister (predictions before birth) was
She ended up as a drow because her mother was killed while possessed by her goddess (Mystra), who acted immediately to save her. Or, as a Russian anecdote put it: "Chukchee is not a reader. Chukchee is a writer!". 
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
The Taint of Wendonai, I didn't like, and I have a hard time believing that, after thousands of years of intermarriage between the original Ilythiiri and other Dark Elf groups that were driven underground, that any Drow would exist that wouldn't have "his blood".
Their communities tend to be fairly isolated from each other. But yes. Another matter is that there's no reason to assume they wouldn't get more fiend blood influx. We're talking about the folk accustomed to untransformed Glabrezu-on-Drow action, after all. Do the foocubi and cambions even count as something very exotic? |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 09 Apr 2014 : 00:08:36
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Meh. AFAIK the taint causes no concrete impairment in drow life (just like the Descent), it just means that Corellon doesn't like them in Arvandor. However there are so many other places where they can go, E's realm included. I don't see how this thing can advance eilistraeens' or vhaerunites' goal in any substantial way, it would even oppose it -as they would lose all drow agents to work with and a lot of the transformed elves would die while trying to survive the underdark w/o drow senses-.
Also I find it to be lame that a handful of people got to impose their decision on many more, it sounds just like some deus ex machina so that they could say ''there are no drow other than 'tradtional' ones''.
-You're preaching to the choir. The entire thing was very contrived and really didn't make a lot of sense. The Taint of Wendonai, I didn't like, and I have a hard time believing that, after thousands of years of intermarriage between the original Ilythiiri and other Dark Elf groups that were driven underground, that any Drow would exist that wouldn't have "his blood". Prior sources have Dark Elves and Drow (past and present) as worshipers of Corellon Larethian, so it would stand to reason that those worshipers went to Arvandor when they died. And, yes, clearly making distinctions between some Drow and others would make it difficult for either Eilistraee or Vhaeraun to "redeem" the Drow race, or wrest control of it from Lolth, or any number of things. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 06 Apr 2014 : 10:56:38
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
The more I thought about these events, the more I decided I was going to view it as a temporary thing. The Faerzress may have been destroyed or altered, but like mushrooms after a rainfall, it's going to start popping back up and regrowing in areas. High Magic isn't perfect after all. In regards, to the drow redemption, I'd view that as a blessing of a generation. The dark elves of old may have been rebirthed, but there will be others to rescue and bring into the fold. E's mission will continue.
I agree, it's temporary. However it's the redemption itself that feels totally off IMO. As I've already said before, it isn't about reviving the dark elves of old or removing curses, it's about drow choosing their life and building their place in the world as drow (also imagine someone like Liriel suddenly getting changed... a lot of drow are like her, proud of what they are. To them this isn't a blessing at all). Having eilistraeens/vhaerunites change race utterly defeats this point, even more so because it makes things look like only the 'pure' drow could be good and saved, while the others were just hopeless and ebil (and that salvation translates as ceasing to be drow).
PS: There also is the issue of who will continue E's or V's mission. According to the story the Dark Dancer (or both of them combined) sacrificed for the transformation* and all of their agents are now brown elves. This means that there's very little they can do, since the very people they want to free try to kill them on sight. Besides (to me) pseudo-wood elves trying to redeem the ilythiiri don't have the same appeal as drow fighting for their people.
Unless they change some aspects of this story (like it was being done before someone decided to edit it out), there's not much room to continue Eilistraee's or Vhaeraun's mission. To me it looks like a whole huge aspect of the drow simply got deleted (which was the point of this story arc, AFAIK).
*Which isn't something she would do, because changing drow in that way has nothing to do with her goal and because it would mean leaving the vast majority of the very people she fights for behind. The temporariness of things makes it look even more pointless. |
| Zireael |
Posted - 06 Apr 2014 : 10:24:11
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
The more I thought about these events, the more I decided I was going to view it as a temporary thing. The Faerzress may have been destroyed or altered, but like mushrooms after a rainfall, it's going to start popping back up and regrowing in areas. High Magic isn't perfect after all. In regards, to the drow redemption, I'd view that as a blessing of a generation. The dark elves of old may have been rebirthed, but there will be others to rescue and bring into the fold. E's mission will continue.
I applaud this post, Eilserus. My thinking exactly. |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 06 Apr 2014 : 05:03:30
The more I thought about these events, the more I decided I was going to view it as a temporary thing. The Faerzress may have been destroyed or altered, but like mushrooms after a rainfall, it's going to start popping back up and regrowing in areas. High Magic isn't perfect after all. In regards, to the drow redemption, I'd view that as a blessing of a generation. The dark elves of old may have been rebirthed, but there will be others to rescue and bring into the fold. E's mission will continue. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 06 Apr 2014 : 01:39:56
quote:
Originally posted by Aulduron
Q'arlynd destroyed the Faerzress which kept the Drow bound to the underdark. Only Drow with no taint, or those who had been redeemed by Eilstraee were changed.
If this is an answer to what I wrote, eilistraeen/vhaerunite drow were the ones I was talking about. A bunch of mages (or whoever; also if E did that, it'd be totally out of character for her to impose such a thing) changed an important part of their identity w/o them even having a say on it.
They didn't need or probably even want any external 'redemption' or transformation. I'll use the same words I've used before: someone (like an eilistraeen) who is born drow, likes to be a drow and fights so that his/her people can have their own place in the world, definitely wouldn't like to be changed into something else just because (s)he was apparently 'cursed'. Their whole point is that the drow -as a race- can choose their life, to not be evil and not be Lolth's puppets; magical redemption and transformation has nothing to do with it.
Also -ironically- the only ones who got changed and 'saved' were those who didn't need it, because they had already 'redeemed' themselves by choice and likely wouldn't even have wanted to be transformed. All the other, still Lolth-brainwashed drow -the ones eilistraeens/vhaerunites were trying to 'free'- were left to rot instead. This doesn't make sense to me, it's the reason I don't think there's much to develop on this side of things and nothing at all has been written about it. |
| Aulduron |
Posted - 05 Apr 2014 : 21:22:16
Q'arlynd destroyed the Faerzress which kept the Drow bound to the underdark. Only Drow with no taint, or those who had been redeemed by Eilstraee were changed. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 04 Apr 2014 : 03:22:07
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Also the point of eilistraeens is that drow -as a race- can choose their life, to not be evil and not be Lolth's puppets; why did Q'whatever (who is an eilistraeen, afaik) cast that spell then, how was it supposed to advance their cause?
-I don't recall offhand, since it's been many, many years, but I'm pretty sure his motivations are explained in the novel itself. It's very fuzzy, but had something to do with the Taint of Wendonai, the Selu'kiira, and that powerful magician guy (Sethomiir?).
Meh. AFAIK the taint causes no concrete impairment in drow life (just like the Descent), it just means that Corellon doesn't like them in Arvandor. However there are so many other places where they can go, E's realm included. I don't see how this thing can advance eilistraeens' or vhaerunites' goal in any substantial way, it would even oppose it -as they would lose all drow agents to work with and a lot of the transformed elves would die while trying to survive the underdark w/o drow senses-.
Also I find it to be lame that a handful of people got to impose their decision on many more, it sounds just like some deus ex machina so that they could say ''there are no drow other than 'tradtional' ones''. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 04 Apr 2014 : 02:57:09
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Well it is hard to say what Brown Elves are or at least I never saw any stats for them. One would hope they lost light blindness, it though clearly should not mean they lost other things. Maybe even gained something.
-A Grand History of the Realms semi-retconned* Dark Elves as being 2e Green Elves/3e Wild Elves. As such, what we know as Dark Elves would have the 2e mechanics of Green Elves/3e mechanics of Wild Elves. Neither addition afforded said Elves dark vision, or a bunch of other innate magical powers that Drow.
*Not a true retcon, in the sense of the word because nothing ever said that they weren't, but until that point, Dark Elves were more or less understood to be something separate, and at the very least, not 2e Green Elves/3e Wild Elves. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 04 Apr 2014 : 02:47:37
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Also the point of eilistraeens is that drow -as a race- can choose their life, to not be evil and not be Lolth's puppets; why did Q'whatever (who is an eilistraeen, afaik) cast that spell then, how was it supposed to advance their cause?
-I don't recall offhand, since it's been many, many years, but I'm pretty sure his motivations are explained in the novel itself. It's very fuzzy, but had something to do with the Taint of Wendonai, the Selu'kiira, and that powerful magician guy (Sethomiir?). |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 04 Apr 2014 : 00:03:12
Bern, non capital letters. Now I need to find it.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17505
The post was a quote posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 04:41:33 Show Profile Email Poster Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message Reply with Quote
quote:Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
You may be on to something about the Seventh Sister. Anyone know Qilue's design origins?
quote: The Seven Sisters were around in the Realms from the very beginning (1967), though at first I knew only that there were a large number of silver-haired, tall, powerful, beautiful she-siblings...the number didn't climb to seven until around 1978, and I deliberately left the seventh slot 'vacant,' as a 'loose end' for either TSR or individual DMs to fill in (by the way, folks: to DMs contemplating campaigns designed for longevity, continually building in 'loose ends' is a crucial design element; TSR has been building mine and their own added ones into complete products for some years, and such good scribes as Eric, George, Grant, and the Bryans have been give headaches aplenty in reconciling them).
In this case, I had it in the back of my head that the last and youngest would be something of a 'black sheep' (I was thinking 'tomboy') and so wrote that "the seventh was a dark disaster." Steven [Schend] pounced on that, and the name and race of Qilue are his creation (leaving me with the 'how did THAT happen?' explanation to do in THE SEVEN SISTERS :}). I think it's a great touch - just another example of how the Realms benefits by the inspired efforts of lots of creators, rather than just one. Steven deserves to take more than a few hard-earned bows for his sensitive and thoughtful work in the Realms...and I hereby salute him once more! Slonshal!
So Ed left her undescribed, Steven Schend came up with the idea of making her a drow, and then Ed had to explain it.
Not sure who the second quote is from.
Oh Wooly as to my other cite, look here http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1901&whichpage=3
quote:
Posted - 29 Feb 2004 : 04:33:52 Show Profile Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Kuje, I flipped this to Ed (who was hard at work writing), and when he came up for air at the end of a chapter, he pounded out this reply:
Qilue is a Chosen of Mystra with all the powers and special status other Chosen of the Mother Of All Magic possess.
Eilistraee wanted a “claim” on her, too, hence her Chosen of Eilistraee title. It means two things: she’s as loyal to Eilistraee as to Mystra (in daily practise, as shown in SILVERFALL, more so), and Eilistraee foresees using her in some great task (i.e. a not-yet-revealed destiny).
Being as this is Candlekeep, I can do no more than point you to what a Harper PC (not one of the Knights) uncovered when asking a monk of Candlekeep to research Qilue’s destiny. The monk was of course limited to finding prophecies and other written histories, and reported thus: one seer saw a dream wherein Qilue wielded a sword forged of her own blood, and was hailed by knights as “the Godslayer.”
However, another seer (the monk declined to identify either of his sources, BTW) said “the dark one who serves two goddesses but leads the dance for only one shall be mother to a new race, and change the face of the Realms forever.”
Either way, it seems Qilue’s future bids fair to be interesting.
So saith Ed. Alaundo, you heard it here first. It seems Candlekeep holds some doggedly diligent or creative monks (or both).
posted by The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore *S* |
| BenN |
Posted - 03 Apr 2014 : 22:46:48
The Dark Disaster was the attack on Miyeritar in the Crown Wars that wiped out most of that dark (brown?) elven realm, creating the High Moor:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Disaster |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Apr 2014 : 17:05:06
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Well it is hard to say what Brown Elves are or at least I never saw any stats for them. One would hope they lost light blindness, it though clearly should not mean they lost other things. Maybe even gained something.
Qilué Veladorn, that lore spoke of the Seventh Sister (predictions before birth) was that she would crate a new race also known as the dark disaster IIRC.
In any event it was reported that a followup up book did reference a brown elf, however not much more.
I don't recall that bit of lore... I thought the dark disaster was the circumstances surrounding her birth. |
| Zireael |
Posted - 03 Apr 2014 : 15:27:50
quote:
Idk what brownies are supposed to be. Before LP I thought that dark elves were actually drow (or so I understood from Elaine's Evermeet novel, when she describes Lolth as having drow traits and says that Corellon trusted her with the fate of a race of elves that looked like her) and that the Descent was more mental/spiritual than material (which actually makes way more sense than ''lulz, you're ebil so you get to be dark and shady''). It looks like this part was retconned/ignored in those novels.
Sources never agreed what the drow looked like before the Descent. Never mind cross editions, even within editions.
quote:
Qilué Veladorn, that lore spoke of the Seventh Sister (predictions before birth) was that she would crate a new race also known as the dark disaster IIRC.
I don't think anyone ever followed on this angle. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 03 Apr 2014 : 10:19:11
Idk what brownies are supposed to be. Before LP I thought that dark elves were actually drow (or so I understood from Elaine's Evermeet novel, when she describes Lolth as having drow traits and says that Corellon trusted her with the fate of a race of elves that looked like her) and that the Descent was more mental/spiritual than material (which actually makes way more sense than ''lulz, you're ebil so you get to be dark and shady''). It looks like this part was retconned/ignored in those novels.
Anyway, someone who is born drow, likes to be a drow and fights so that his/her people can have their own place in the world, definitely wouldn't like to be changed into something else just because (s)he was apparently 'cursed', advantages or not (just as I wouldn't like to be turned into some green dude because reasons, w/o even having a say on it). |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 03 Apr 2014 : 04:18:10
Well it is hard to say what Brown Elves are or at least I never saw any stats for them. One would hope they lost light blindness, it though clearly should not mean they lost other things. Maybe even gained something.
Qilué Veladorn, that lore spoke of the Seventh Sister (predictions before birth) was that she would crate a new race also known as the dark disaster IIRC.
In any event it was reported that a followup up book did reference a brown elf, however not much more. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 03 Apr 2014 : 04:02:09
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Tbh, I don't see much to develop on the dark elves side. The transformation is out of character IMO: drow are happy as drow and wouldn't want -or need- to change what they are, and neither E nor V would force it. Being able to choose their life has nothing to do with random curses that have no concrete effect on them in first place.
-As I am remembering it, the Descent curse was reversed when Q'whatever and others negated it using their own Elven High Magic. Eilistraee and Vhaeraun weren't the ones who did it.
Even if E or V didn't do that, it would still be a bunch of people deciding for a lot more. Many drow -lolthites or not- are proud of being drow. Turning into another kind of wood elves would bring no practical change (except maybe less prejudice), but would sacrifice a huge part of their identity (and -as you said- would kill many of the transformed people) .
Also the point of eilistraeens is that drow -as a race- can choose their life, to not be evil and not be Lolth's puppets; why did Q'whatever (who is an eilistraeen, afaik) cast that spell then, how was it supposed to advance their cause?
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| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 03 Apr 2014 : 02:47:21
quote:
Originally posted by Logoi
I mean published after 2008... I am really curious about what happens after the end of the Lady Penitent... what happens exactly to Hallistra? What happens with the drow-turned-into-dark elves?
-On that, there is nothing.
-But, when you think about it logically: the ones that transformed probably died or were killed pretty quickly. Reverting back into Dark Elves, it is most likely that they lost their darkvision- mechanically, they'd have the stats of "Wild Elves" from 3e or "Elves" from 4e, and neither had that ability. Living in the cutthroat environment that is the Underdark, losing your sight is pretty much a death sentence, especially for the generic schnooks that you figure the majority of those that transformed were (ie, not everyone is a heroic NPC with levels in useful classes).
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Tbh, I don't see much to develop on the dark elves side. The transformation is out of character IMO: drow are happy as drow and wouldn't want -or need- to change what they are, and neither E nor V would force it. Being able to choose their life has nothing to do with random curses that have no concrete effect on them in first place.
-As I am remembering it, the Descent curse was reversed when Q'whatever and others negated it using their own Elven High Magic. Eilistraee and Vhaeraun weren't the ones who did it.
-All of those scenes, I always interpreted them more as metaphysical than actual things happening, anyway. Forgotten Realms deities aren't omnipotent, and mortal creatures have free will, so the scenes with the deities "controlling their pieces" on the sava board, and things happening on Faerun, and vice-versa (pieces disappearing from the board after dying, for example) shouldn't really be seen as literal, if you ask me. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 03 Apr 2014 : 00:04:51
AFAIK, there's no follow up for those events.
The only attempt to develop the non-Lolthite side of drow was in the 4e Menzoberran sourcebook, but it was edited out. It can be summarized with this: E and V merged and lost their divinty in the game, using it to 'redeem' those few drow they could. They are still around -as archfey- with their followers and keep doing what they did before.
Tbh, I don't see much to develop on the dark elves side. The transformation is out of character IMO: drow are happy as drow and wouldn't want -or need- to change what they are, and neither E nor V would force it. Being able to choose their life has nothing to do with random curses that have no concrete effect on them in first place. |
| Logoi |
Posted - 02 Apr 2014 : 23:19:24
I mean published after 2008... I am really curious about what happens after the end of the Lady Penitent... what happens exactly to Hallistra? What happens with the drow-turned-into-dark elves?
I know there is "The rise of the Underdark" saga, but I started to read "Spider and Stone" and it was so boring. I also hope if there are novels about drows as "The war of the Spider Queen". |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 02 Apr 2014 : 13:42:38
I don't think there's much if anything that deals with the drow who were turned into dark elves. At least that I'm aware of, but I did fall behind on some novels back in that time frame. You know that kind of makes curious about how that whole situation went down and its after effects now. I wonder if they will just ignore it except for a few isolated worshippers of E. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 02 Apr 2014 : 08:19:44
-Chronologically, or just published after 2008? In regards to the latter, there's Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue, a 4e sourcebook all about the city. Not literature, per se, but the main source on Drow goings-ons for the 4e timeline. |
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