| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Palmate |
Posted - 26 Feb 2005 : 23:05:10
Learned folk,
I’m seeking a code for the Paladin's of Helm, specifically the order of the “Vigilant Eyes of the God”, though any of Helm’s orders’ codes will work.
Thanks again y’all
Palmate
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| warlockco |
Posted - 23 Aug 2005 : 02:10:17
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Web, you make a good point. We are all kind of assuming that the dieties alignment is common knowlage. I guess that in a way is why I like looking at what order the particular cleric or paladin is from. From what is discribed, the Vigilant Eyes of the Deity is definately a Lawful good order, and would look at things from that perspective. They might either see Helm as Lawful Good, or they may see him as a god and as such beyond their right to question what alignment he actually is.
Hmm. And what if someone were to see it as dramatically incorrect? Like, for instance, a paladin who left the worship of Tyr to join Bane, just because she thought Bane was "misunderstood"? 
And then discovered, when it was too late, that she was now a blackguard. Oops. 
'Course, this may have already happened. . . with Scyllua Darkhope. But who knows?
Cheers
Had a player that played a Paladin of Tiamat, in 2E (so yes a Lawful Good Paladin of a Lawful Evil goddess), he was very good at it too. But then again, the player was pretty slick with words too, he could sell ice to an eskimo in the middle of a blizzard.
He always acted in a Lawful Good manner, while promoting and protecting the Faith of Tiamat. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 22 Aug 2005 : 22:13:45
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Web, you make a good point. We are all kind of assuming that the dieties alignment is common knowlage. I guess that in a way is why I like looking at what order the particular cleric or paladin is from. From what is discribed, the Vigilant Eyes of the Deity is definately a Lawful good order, and would look at things from that perspective. They might either see Helm as Lawful Good, or they may see him as a god and as such beyond their right to question what alignment he actually is.
Hmm. And what if someone were to see it as dramatically incorrect? Like, for instance, a paladin who left the worship of Tyr to join Bane, just because she thought Bane was "misunderstood"?
And then discovered, when it was too late, that she was now a blackguard. Oops.
'Course, this may have already happened. . . with Scyllua Darkhope. But who knows?
Cheers |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 22 Aug 2005 : 21:40:38
Web, you make a good point. We are all kind of assuming that the dieties alignment is common knowlage. I guess that in a way is why I like looking at what order the particular cleric or paladin is from. From what is discribed, the Vigilant Eyes of the Deity is definately a Lawful good order, and would look at things from that perspective. They might either see Helm as Lawful Good, or they may see him as a god and as such beyond their right to question what alignment he actually is. |
| webmanus |
Posted - 22 Aug 2005 : 21:24:19
Hi folks! I would like to add the following view ... a paladin of Helm might view Helm as LG, when Helm is LN. That paladin might believe that all others are wrong ... kind of ... |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 22 Aug 2005 : 19:17:10
Oh, I get exacly what you are saying. One of the things that often occurs to me is that evil naturally strives against other stable societies more so than good does. Zhentil Keep has no problem in attacking the Dales, or subverting Cormyr from within. The Red Wizards of Thay have the same thought process, and both are more or less lawful societies. So Helm would naturally find them more "disruptive" than Cormyr in its expansionist heydey, when they would swoop in and protect a given region from an external evil, then declare them part of Cormyr, al la Tilverton, which is a much more peaceful transfer of power. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 22 Aug 2005 : 19:02:18
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I don't know, if you read his entry on Faiths and Avatars, Helm's greatest enemies are as follows (omiting those that are dead and have stayed dead):
Bane, Garagos, Mask, Shar, and Talos
Only two of those are chaotic dieties, one is Lawful Evil, and two are Neutral Evil.
I think Helm IS concerned with good and evil, but he himself tends to cross over into grey areas in his effort to protect society from evil.
But thats just how I read it.
Yeah, you're right.  Scratch the "devoted enemy of chaos" thing. It's not so much alignment conflicts as portfolio.
But first good and evil (not canon by any means -- merely my opinions):
Helm opposes evil, but it's not because he's good. I get the sense it's more of a personal preference, and seeing that evil tends to run up against his portfolio somewhat brutally (stealing, murder, the lawlessness implicit in raiding and pillaging, etc.).
It's like the age long debate about druids in 2e -- do they have to sympathize with evil? Maybe, but do they have to like it? Certainly not. As it says in the Druid's handbook (2e), a particular druid may prefer good neighbors, might enjoy a good monarch being on the throne in a region, and despise goblins and orcs, but understands that they exist in BALANCE.
You can't, after all, convince a true neutral druid to slay a red dragon MERELY because it's evil -- neutral people have other motivations, like desire for coin or experience, helping out friends, etc.
That's one of my interpretations of being neutral with respect to good and evil: good and evil are both necessary in the multiverse, and you can't have one without the other. In addition, they exist in a balance. As one wanes, the other waxes, but they will eventually come back into balance.
My deal with Helm is this: I was always under the impression that his enemies had more to do with contrasting portfolios and previous actions.
For instance, you'd think he'd be ok with Bane (if dislike him), but Bane did, after all, steal the tablets of fate.
Mask's portfolio is a direct contradiction of his: thieves vs. guarding against theft.
Shar's portfolio contains loss, and Helm exists to prevent loss.
Talos has the chaos going, and he's also about destruction where Helm's about protection.
Is what I'm getting at making sense? Helm doesn't oppose evil deities because they're evil, but for other reasons.
Similarly, his priesthood opposes other priesthoods that happen to be evil, not because they're evil, and a paladin of Helm would naturally find this difficult (which can make for some great stories).
So, in a round about way, we've come dead back onto topic. 
Other thoughts?
Cheers
|
| Misericordia |
Posted - 22 Aug 2005 : 18:47:38
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Misericordia
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Misericordia
I. First of all to hear devoutely, every day, your Lord's Mess.
I believe that should be "Lord's Mass". The word "Mess" really changes the intent of the sentence.
You're correct. I apologize for my terrible english, guys!
By the way, what's the meaning of "mess"?
Hey, it's not a problem. Many of us who speak English as our native tongue still flub it.
One definition of mess is a military cafeteria. But the most common definition is a disorganized and cluttered area or situation.
And the third definition of "mess" (which is what I read the first time) is pretty much exemplified in what my cat leaves in the litterbox every so often.
Hey, that REALLY changes the intent! But I would be curious to see such a ceremony! |
| warlockco |
Posted - 22 Aug 2005 : 18:47:13
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I don't know, if you read his entry on Faiths and Avatars, Helm's greatest enemies are as follows (omiting those that are dead and have stayed dead):
Bane, Garagos, Mask, Shar, and Talos
Only two of those are chaotic dieties, one is Lawful Evil, and two are Neutral Evil.
I think Helm IS concerned with good and evil, but he himself tends to cross over into grey areas in his effort to protect society from evil.
But thats just how I read it.
I can see why Helm would be at odds with Mask and Shar, Mask being the patron of Thieves (hence in opposition to Helm) and Shar being a goddess of darkness, would also have a large following of Thieves too. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 22 Aug 2005 : 18:28:01
I don't know, if you read his entry on Faiths and Avatars, Helm's greatest enemies are as follows (omiting those that are dead and have stayed dead):
Bane, Garagos, Mask, Shar, and Talos
Only two of those are chaotic dieties, one is Lawful Evil, and two are Neutral Evil.
I think Helm IS concerned with good and evil, but he himself tends to cross over into grey areas in his effort to protect society from evil.
But thats just how I read it.
|
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 22 Aug 2005 : 18:11:07
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Misericordia
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Misericordia
I. First of all to hear devoutely, every day, your Lord's Mess.
I believe that should be "Lord's Mass". The word "Mess" really changes the intent of the sentence.
You're correct. I apologize for my terrible english, guys!
By the way, what's the meaning of "mess"?
Hey, it's not a problem. Many of us who speak English as our native tongue still flub it.
One definition of mess is a military cafeteria. But the most common definition is a disorganized and cluttered area or situation.
And the third definition of "mess" (which is what I read the first time) is pretty much exemplified in what my cat leaves in the litterbox every so often.
All good suggestions and thoughts on a Helm paladin's code. I should just like to add one teensy observation, something you may consider taking into the code:
It is likely that a paladin of Helm would emphasize the LAWFUL part of his alignment over the GOOD. Most conventional paladins you think of as the GOOD guys -- good and justice win out in every situation. Under Helm, however, it's more LAW and FAIRNESS, rather than GOOD and JUSTICE.
I got the sense, from reading the various realmslore, that Helm mostly opposes CHAOTIC evil deities. He finds evil distasteful, but in the end, if that's what it takes to get his duty done, that's what it takes. Worshipping a deity who ultimately doesn't care about good and evil has got to produce a great deal of tension in a paladin, and likely a fair bit of anger at the "evil" actions of his priesthood (Maztica's an excellent example).
So he could be seeking to reform things -- be a leader by example, trying to guide Helm's church to goodness (no matter how ridiculous it might seem to try and influence a god to alter its alignment).
Also, your paladin could be a hardened zealot, obeying a strict set of principles without much regard for good and evil (though leaning more toward good than evil -- you despise evil, but not as much as you despise chaos).
Thirdly, you could be a blind crusader, trusting your own divinely-guided hand, smiting those you regard as evil (for a good example of what I mean by this last, see the Shadowbane Inquisitor and the Order of Illumination (I think it's called) in Complete Adventurer).
Happy smiting!
Cheers
|
| warlockco |
Posted - 22 Aug 2005 : 17:05:21
Aye sorry, just Paladin Codes specific to a deity aren't very common. Kinda of the let's not promote a religion thing to keep the Religious Right away from the games. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 22 Aug 2005 : 16:39:35
Just an aside . . . our poor fellow scribe is looking for tips on creating a code for a paladin of Helm. This debate on wheather Helm did nobly here or let his clerics do this or that really doesn't add one whit to what a paladin of Helm would or wouldn't do in a given situation. Sorry Palmate for the digression . . . |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 22 Aug 2005 : 16:37:29
Keep in mind too, Mystra was at the end of her rope, and really tired of being a goddess and having all of the responsibilities that she had. She was either going to end everything quickly and charge right past Helm back into her home in the planes, or she was going to get scattered to the four winds by him. Kinda like when people commit "suicide by cop" and intentionally do things to get shot by cops becuase they know under what circumstances a police officer will fire on them. Same situation here . . . Mystra knew how Helm would react to her demands. |
| khorne |
Posted - 22 Aug 2005 : 15:51:35
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Helm did not have to Kill Mystra to forbid her access to the Outer Planes. What he did was the equivalent of a battleship being used to swat a jet ski, that had a capgun mounted on it.
Yes he did. She just wouldn`t stop. He warned her to back off but she wouldn`t. If he hadn`t gone all out then she might have defeated him or slipped past him, and the thought of failing his duty twice in a row was to horrible for the watcher, so he did as Ao commanded him to do. |
| warlockco |
Posted - 22 Aug 2005 : 11:57:56
Because they are secretly repressed followers of Bane. Hiding behind their duty as guardians to kill all non-believers. Have to protect the faith you know.
Helm did not have to Kill Mystra to forbid her access to the Outer Planes. What he did was the equivalent of a battleship being used to swat a jet ski, that had a capgun mounted on it. |
| khorne |
Posted - 22 Aug 2005 : 11:53:14
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
I never liked Helm after he allowed his clergy to slaughter on the Moonshaes and Maztica. Just a FYI. :)
It all started with him killing Mystra during the Time of Troubles for me.
And I feel entirely vindicated with the release of typical foes for Divine Champions in the PGtF. All of my characters that were follower's of Mystra since the Time of Troubles have either outright hated or just couldn't tolerate the followers of Helm.
When he killed Mystra he did what he had to do. It`s not like he had any real choice. As to the mooonshaes and stuff, it was Doug Niles who wrote that, and I would very much want to know why he made the clergy of the vigilant one act in a manner so unfitting the eternal guard`s servants |
| warlockco |
Posted - 22 Aug 2005 : 04:05:20
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
I never liked Helm after he allowed his clergy to slaughter on the Moonshaes and Maztica. Just a FYI. :)
It all started with him killing Mystra during the Time of Troubles for me.
And I feel entirely vindicated with the release of typical foes for Divine Champions in the PGtF. All of my characters that were follower's of Mystra since the Time of Troubles have either outright hated or just couldn't tolerate the followers of Helm. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 22 Aug 2005 : 00:56:43
Well, I blame Douglas Niles more than Helm for that . . . I think that was the example I was thinking of, the "Lawful Neutral" dispassionate god. If you read Helm's description he has a specific love and devotion for children, so I have a hard time with him being completely uncaring.
And I forgot to address the original post about the Vigilant Eyes of the Diety.
The Vigilant Eyes are suppose to put out a very good public face for the church of Helm. They are suppose to be the iconic paladins, defending the innocent, fighting evil monsters, and always having a smile for the children that want to grow up to be just like them.
The other side of what they are is that they are to check in on the other orders of Helm, such as the Companions of the One True Vision, and make sure that they are not doing more harm than good to the faith. Some Vigilant Eyes definately act as inquisitors, keeping the faith in good standing with the common folk and local rulers.
I imagine eventually some Vigilant Eyes will make their way to Maztica . . . |
| Kuje |
Posted - 22 Aug 2005 : 00:51:38
I never liked Helm after he allowed his clergy to slaughter on the Moonshaes and Maztica. Just a FYI. :) |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 22 Aug 2005 : 00:50:21
I think a lot of us assume a lot based on the fact that Helm is Lawful Neutral. I did a lot of this as well, until I had a player in my game decide that he wanted to be a Lawful Good cleric of Helm, so I started doing my research. Originally, I had thought that he would end up being someone trying to do good while getting difficult orders from his superiors from time to time, having to defend the mess in Maztica and the like.
When I did the research, Helm is very much against evil. Much like Cuthbert in Greyhawk, I see Helm having a lot of Lawful Neutral and Lawful Good followers, but not many Lawful evil ones. One thing that helps to reinforce this is that there are many orders within the church of Helm, some that would lean more Lawful Neutral (the Companions of the One True Vision), and others that are much more naturally Lawful Good (The Vigilant Eyes of the Diety and the Watchers over the Fallen).
Helm hates evil, but, to use a mortal example, like Khelbun he realizes that he has to get his hands dirty to fight it from time to time. He will use those that are suited for the "dirty" work but I don't think he pushes his paladins into the "black ops" situations if he can help it.
And as always, thanks to Wooly for suggesting that I get Faiths and Avatars to do some of my research on Helm's church. Invaluable resource for this sort of thing.
Champions of Valor, coming up in November, is suppose to have material in it that covers paladins of different faiths, including Helm's. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Aug 2005 : 23:02:39
quote:
Originally posted by Misericordia
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Misericordia
I. First of all to hear devoutely, every day, your Lord's Mess.
I believe that should be "Lord's Mass". The word "Mess" really changes the intent of the sentence.
You're correct. I apologize for my terrible english, guys!
By the way, what's the meaning of "mess"?
Hey, it's not a problem. Many of us who speak English as our native tongue still flub it.
One definition of mess is a military cafeteria. But the most common definition is a disorganized and cluttered area or situation. |
| warlockco |
Posted - 21 Aug 2005 : 21:20:04
A Paladin of Helm, would be similiar to other followers of Helm in that they tend to follow a "Shoot First, ask Questions Later" mentality.
Also given Helm's history, I could see Helm having more Fallen Paladins than any other god (ironically still serving him at times, just as Blackguards instead of as Paladins). |
| webmanus |
Posted - 21 Aug 2005 : 21:10:33
From A Grand Tour of the Realms (AD&D FRCS, 1996): quote:
The Paladin's Virtues
The paladin's virtues are:
- An organized approach brings the moost good for all.
- Law exist to make prosperity to those under them.
- Unjust law must be overturned or changed in a reasonable and positive fashion.
- People rule, laws help.
- Cause the most good through the least harm.
- Protect the weak.
- Goodness is not a natural state, but must be fought for to be attained and mantained.
- Lead by example.
- Let your deeds speak your intentions.
- Goodness radiates from the hart.
- Gives other your mercy, but keep your wits about you.
The above applies to paladins of all kind. Now, you would need to understand your Helm and the dogma of his church. Note that Helm is LN, while paladins are LG ... I like when the alignments are a bit shifted ... more intrigues can be arranged ... Back to Helm ... his domains are law, planning, protection, and strength. The above virtues and Helm's domain are pretty "similar". I would say that the following virtues are important to Helm:
- An organized approach brings the moost good for all.
- Law exist to make prosperity to those under them.
- Unjust law must be overturned or changed in a reasonable and positive fashion.
- People rule, laws help.
- Protect the weak.
Furthermore, I would say that the following virtues are, in addition to the above ones, are important to a paladin of Helm:
- Goodness radiates from the hart.
- Cause the most good through the least harm.
- Goodness is not a natural state, but must be fought for to be attained and mantained.
Finally, the following would be a kind of generic paladin virtues:
- Gives other your mercy, but keep your wits about you.
- Lead by example.
- Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Now, a LN cleric of Helm could agree with a LG palading of Helm that the following virtues are OK:
- An organized approach brings the moost good for all.
- Law exist to make prosperity to those under them.
- Unjust law must be overturned or changed in a reasonable and positive fashion.
- People rule, laws help.
- Protect the weak.
For the other virtues, they just may not understand each other, disagree, and so on.
I hope this helps ... |
| Misericordia |
Posted - 21 Aug 2005 : 21:10:17
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Misericordia
I. First of all to hear devoutely, every day, your Lord's Mess.
I believe that should be "Lord's Mass". The word "Mess" really changes the intent of the sentence.
You're correct. I apologize for my terrible english, guys!
By the way, what's the meaning of "mess"? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Aug 2005 : 21:05:24
quote:
Originally posted by Misericordia
I. First of all to hear devoutely, every day, your Lord's Mess.
I believe that should be "Lord's Mass". The word "Mess" really changes the intent of the sentence. |
| Misericordia |
Posted - 21 Aug 2005 : 19:27:56
Is really hard to find a good paladin code, almost for the classical paladin (sort of ideal medieval knight).
An organic elencation of principles of faith and moral, of the right and the duties of the paladin in time of peace and war would be great stuff indeed!
I use part of medieval "code". With more or less changes, can fit for almost every good faith.
QuodMiles esse debeat
-Magnanimus in adversitate.
- Ingenuus in consanguineitate.
- Largifluus in benestate.
- Egregius in Curialitate.
- Strenuus in virili peditate.
Sed antequam votimi luce professionis facias cum matura deliberatìone, lugum Regulce prius audias. Ista est Regula Militaris Ordinis.
I. Inprimis cum devota recordatione Dominicoe passionisMfssam quotiate audire.
II. Pro fide Catholica corpus audacter exponere.
III. Sanctam Ecclesiam cum ministris eius a quibusdam grassatoribus liberare.
IV. Viduas, pupillos, ac orphanos in eorum necessitate protegere.
V. Iniusta bella vitare.
VI. Iniqua stipendia renuere.
VII. Pro liberatìone cuiuslibet innocentis duellum mire.
VIII. imperatori Romanorum, seu eius patrocinio reverenter in temporalibus obedire.
IX. Rempublicam illibatam in vigore suo permittere.
X. Bona Feudalia Regni, ve!Imperi}nequaquam alienare.
XI. Ac irreprehensibiliter apudDeum, et homines in hocMundo vivere.
How must be a cavalier
- magnanimous in adversity
- generous with relatives
- abundant in honourableness
- distinctive between authorities
- brave in army
Before you, with mature deliberation, express the vote of your profession, hear the yoke of the code. This is the code of military order:
I. First of all to hear devoutely, every day, your Lord's Mess.
II. Expose bravely your body for the Faith.
III. Free the holy church and her ministers from brigands.
IV. Protect in their necessity widows, children, orphans.
V. Avoid unjust wars.
VI. Refuse unjust rewards.
VII. Fight in duel for liberation if every innocent.
VIII. Obey, in temporal affairs, to Roman Emperor (use adapt title) and His authority.
IX. Keep the state intact in his power.
X. Never alienate feudal properties of realm and empire.
XI. Living in this world in a irreproachable manner before God and men.
I believe it works very well! |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Aug 2005 : 19:10:37
quote:
Originally posted by Elrond Half Elven
If I recall correctly there is no written set of rules for a paladin to follow, usually a paladin upholds his own set of ideals.
However there is a written 'blue-print' in the 2nd Edition Forgotten Realms Grey box set. I believe this was penned by a retired Paladin. I'll look through the set and see what iu can dig up .
Hanx
Elrond
The Grey Box was 1st edition, not 2nd. There was a knightly code offered in Forgotten Realms Adventures. |
| Elrond Half Elven |
Posted - 21 Aug 2005 : 18:35:22
If I recall correctly there is no written set of rules for a paladin to follow, usually a paladin upholds his own set of ideals.
However there is a written 'blue-print' in the 2nd Edition Forgotten Realms Grey box set. I believe this was penned by a retired Paladin. I'll look through the set and see what iu can dig up .
Hanx
Elrond |
| Ty |
Posted - 17 Mar 2005 : 22:20:53
I think Dragon 284 had an article on adapting the 2nd ed. Specialty Priests of Helm to 3rd Edition. Also, now that I think about it a bit, the old 2ed Forgotten Realms Adventures book detailed the specialty priests of Helm for the Realms.
Paladin codes are hard to come by.  For the most part, I haven't seen any specifically written down. You may want to ask Ed over on the Chamber of Sages board since he appears to use Helm and Torm quite commonly in his own campaign. |
| Palmate |
Posted - 17 Mar 2005 : 22:07:02
thanks for the suggestions, I'll look into it and see wha else I might be able to find.
Any other suggestions?
Palmate |
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