| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 05:43:35
What moral issues do you think the FR churches have?
I can think of the following from the real world
Interacial marriages (and lets face it anything can breed with anything in 3ed!)
Sexs before marriage
Homosexuality
Anyone think of any others? or any realms specfic moral dihemas for FR churches
A couple i can think of is Lycanthropy and Selunes church
The Superiority/Inferiority of a Race/Sex
|
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 04 Nov 2005 : 19:51:19
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The people of the Heartlands, as a whole, have a more relaxed view of sexuality than does the United States. Obviously, many people in the US have a relaxed view of sex, but there's just as many people that are uptight about it.
True, true. I generally take the view that if it's consensual and between adults, it's no one's business, although that doesn't mean there aren't things that, well, make me uncomfortable. Incest, for example, although suprisingly, in my state it's technically not illegal to marry your cousin. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 03 Nov 2005 : 00:59:56
As far as the overall idea of how there are common morals throughout the Realms with so many different gods and faiths and cultures, I would say it reminds me of a professor I had in college. He asked us how we know anything about history if history is written by the victors. How can we trust anything? Overlap builds concensus. When you find something from another culture that is biased against a given culture, and both accounts agree the the main culture won the battle, even though the second culture is the victim, you can be pretty sure the battle happened and the main group won, though the details may vary.
While not all faiths will agree on the same things, certain patterns will start to emerge from the things that the majority of them do agree on. Lathander might not like murder becuase it ends life before its time, Ilmater becuase it causes undue suffering, and indescriminate murder offends even Bane since its a valuable tool being weilded like a child's toy.
What I think is funny are the societal niceties that are supported by unlooked for avenues, such as the responce I got from Ed about how Waukeen's temple is very strick about divorce records and proceedings becuase of property rights.
|
| The Sage |
Posted - 03 Nov 2005 : 00:47:21
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I'd like to think that sexuality on Earth is as "free" as those involved would like it to be, though (for some reason I can't stand it when people say "the Realms is 'freer' than it is on Earth"--that doesn't have to be true).
The people of the Heartlands, as a whole, have a more relaxed view of sexuality than does the United States. Obviously, many people in the US have a relaxed view of sex, but there's just as many people that are uptight about it.
In the Realms, if a lady bard had a "wardrobe malfunction", no one would have cared. Here in the US... 
Indeed, and there's less likelihood that it would be a tale told Realms-wide, for the most part.
I would think that only in those Realms locales where a state or national religion is strictly enforced by those in charge, would situations regarding sex and sexuality be heavily monitored. Perhaps this is true for most of the older realms to the south, like Mulhorand and Chessenta... sex is still very much a private and "behind-closed-doors" activity, while for those who live in the more recent and more expansive locales to the north -- the younger realms -- have the kinds of relaxed attitudes that are being discussed here.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 02 Nov 2005 : 22:49:45
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I'd like to think that sexuality on Earth is as "free" as those involved would like it to be, though (for some reason I can't stand it when people say "the Realms is 'freer' than it is on Earth"--that doesn't have to be true).
The people of the Heartlands, as a whole, have a more relaxed view of sexuality than does the United States. Obviously, many people in the US have a relaxed view of sex, but there's just as many people that are uptight about it.
In the Realms, if a lady bard had a "wardrobe malfunction", no one would have cared. Here in the US... |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 02 Nov 2005 : 18:35:24
I'd like to think that sexuality on Earth is as "free" as those involved would like it to be, though (for some reason I can't stand it when people say "the Realms is 'freer' than it is on Earth"--that doesn't have to be true).
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 02 Nov 2005 : 00:11:07
Ed's said that the attitude regarding sex in the Realms is basically this: So long as there's no harm done and it's between consenting adults, it's all good. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 01 Nov 2005 : 23:43:16
The Realms have been fairly open, Ed Greedwood has talked about writing content that he expected the censors would edit out. Writting a lot of it so that some might actually get into print.
As for canon I do not know of any church that requires marriage before sex, condemns any private activity that two or more consenting adults choose to do.
The laws I am aware of are doing harm, protecting the peple or punishment on those that harm the people.
One thing discussed was if there was a public intoxication law. There is not one in Waterdeep, the laws that do kick in is if a Dronk person is causing harm and sometimes passed out on the streets.
Have a girl friend and a boyfriend, heck marry them both if you want (though some Clerics might not sanction plural mariages, never saw the issue come up though).
The Realms appears to be built about Good vs Evil, Chaos vs. Law with the prime focus of desired and undesired interaction. |
| Dungeon Moron |
Posted - 01 Nov 2005 : 23:14:03
Thanks destroyyoualot. That was excatly the way I was thinking of.
We are nowadays in a period where we have certain customs and values, where sexual relationships are encouraged to be inside a relationship, even in marriage. And same sex relationships are still a bit frowned upon.
I know of the more open minded cultures is the past.
I live in Holland which is renowned for its tolerant opinion on homosexuality (amongst other things  ).
Knowing this, I always wondered what the influence of the morality of the designers and publishers was to the Realms. Some sort of code, like that of the balance between good and bad.
Sometimes something slips through this apparant code, fitting in the realm of fantasy, which I find amusing and acceptable.
Heck it is a fantasy world, and I would hate it being a replica of our own doomed earth  |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 01 Nov 2005 : 19:50:40
Azoun also had something of an "open marriage" even when he was with Filfaeril, according to Ed. |
| DestroyYouAlot |
Posted - 01 Nov 2005 : 17:47:07
Oh, and as far as Cormyr goes, remember also that Azoun himself is supposed to have "sown his oats" far and wide before settling down with Filfaeril, with more than a few illegitimate offspring, so that shows you how much power those oh-so-restrictive sexual mores have in reality. (Realmsality?) |
| DestroyYouAlot |
Posted - 01 Nov 2005 : 17:36:14
Well, let's see...
For starters, as far as Sune goes, there are numerous instances in the fiction where her clergy pursue love in the "short term", so pre-marital sex, at least in some (and, presumably, most) sects of that goddess's faith, is ok - and more than likely encouraged. As far as extra-marital sex, that would probably depend on the conditions of the marriage. ;)
I'm fairly certain Ed has implied that the Realms as he envisions it is quite a bit "spicier" than the published version - and a good thing, too, or all the civilized races would die out from low birth rates in a few centuries! However, at least in some areas (i.e., Cormyr, off the top of my head), and in certain social classes/circles, it's been etablished that there are sexual mores/"unwritten laws" regarding who can do what to who and with whose chicken. (I'm referring to Stormlight, here, but there are plenty of examples.) But this is certainly true of our own culture, and everyone's pretty much getting up to as much mischief as they have time for anyway, so I'd imagine the same would go for the Realms, too.
And, as far as the person who wondered "Do they even have homosexuality in the Realms", remember that same-sex relationships were considered, by many ancient cultures, to be acceptable (or even encouraged) as a method of birth control, to relieve tension (especially between soldiers), or as a facet of a "mentor" relationship (I'm looking at you here, Greece). I'm sure as hell not trying to open that can of worms, but just keep in mind that sentient beings will be sentient beings.
On another note, there's plenty of published material (not necessarily Realms, but generic D&D) regarding the sexual habits of the demihuman races. Elves were described as having a "wild period" (lasting about as long as a human life) during which they would try "any and every" form of coupling, along with any other type of self-indulgence imaginable, before they settled down to be "respectable" elves. (Many, if not most, half-elves are supposed to have resulted from these unions.) Dwarves, on the other hand, were depicted as being as stodgy as you'd imagine, but powerfully single-minded in their couplings, and as passionate as they would be about a fine axe or ale. However, with the low rate of females to males, they were also depicted as seeing male-to-male pairings as perfectly acceptable. (I'm not making this up - and how TSR ever let this stuff get published is beyond me, but there you have it.) Some of this is, if I recall correctly, from the "best of Dragon" compilation, and some from the 2nd edition "guide to elves", but if anyone knows better than I do, feel free to speak up. |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 31 Oct 2005 : 23:19:25
In the real world most of the major faiths are monothesic (ie one god) so if believers of X would treat believers of Y as Heretics/Infidels/Devil worshipers etc. So ironicly the Realms has probably been more tolerant when it comes to relgion than the real world. While a Christian can say Allah doesn exist and Muslims have got oit wrong (and muslims can say the same about Christians), citizens of the Realms cant after all the gods walked among them for practically an entire year. Even the most rabid follower of Tyr has to acknowledge that Bane and Cyric exist and their worshipers are just as true to their gods as the Tyrist is to his. Theres not alot of doubt that the gods exist after all every time a cleric casts a spell it proves his god exists |
| Dungeon Moron |
Posted - 31 Oct 2005 : 22:31:02
Okay, that makes sense for most persons. Otherwise it would be a jungle of chaos between various faiths.
But still my other questions remain.
What other differences are there between certain civilizations of Fearun and our own (western) world? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 31 Oct 2005 : 21:01:30
Because everyone more or less follows the same deities... As has been pointed out more than once, the average person will toss off a prayer or offer some other form of worship several times a day, whenever appropriate to the activity they're doing.
People in the Realms know there are multiple deities, and they tend to listen to all of them -- or at least, those whose portfolios affect them and/or whose alignments don't greatly differ from theirs. So, in essence, even though individuals may identify more strongly with one deity or another, everyone is pretty much on the same page. |
| Dungeon Moron |
Posted - 31 Oct 2005 : 20:12:51
Comparing our own world again with the Realms, we sure have it very easily spelled out before us.
We (mostly) have a one God or religion one which our values are based.
In the multiverse of Pantheons upon the Realms, with all having their different customs and codes, shouldn't it be a complete chaos between followers of the various deities?
Somehow everybody just seems to get along with eachother where I would suspect more strife amongst eachother. Several cities have so many temples that almost all different alginments pass the revue.
How does everybody get along without breaking each others code or custom, if everybody is living together? |
| hooper101 |
Posted - 31 Oct 2005 : 20:10:27
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
However, in many cases in FR stories, a male and female protagonist often get into a relationship and then sexual intercouse, even though they are not married and fall in love only after a short period of time.
Of the top of my head, here's a few:
Drizzt and Catti-Brie
Kara and Dorn (Year of Rogue Dragon Trilogy)
Vambran and the female druid (forgot name) (Scions of Arrabar Trilogy)
Dozens and dozens of characters in Ed Greenwood's books. Lol.
Amlaruil and Zoar (had like 3 kids before she official became Queen)
When did Drizzt and Cattie Brie hook up? |
| Forge |
Posted - 31 Oct 2005 : 19:32:53
I imagine a lot of taboo and heresy would revolve around magic and it's application to the followers of their or another religeon. It's hard to define heresy for universal truths when such "Truths" are relative to the diety in question. I couldn't see anything being taboo to the followers of Sune so long as it felt good. The reverse applies to followers of Ilamter. Kelemvor would be relatively ambivilant about either.
Honestly, the dieties don't have any corrollation between right and wrong. They are about their portfolios and what advances their interests.
FR Dieties= Large Amoral children poking an antbed to watch the inhabitants scatter, each trying to get as many ant in their corner as possible without pissing off the teacher. (Ao) |
| Dungeon Moron |
Posted - 31 Oct 2005 : 19:11:48
Searching in the tunnels of scrolls located in Candlekeep, I came upon this scroll.
Here is this:
I was wondering about the influence of our (Christian) or otherwise Western values and customs had on our beautiful Fearun.
Above, there are some examples of sex and marriage in the Realms, but I was thinking in a bigger picture.
We have a large and long history on Earth, where we reiced our values mainly due to religion years past;
We have a certain view of how to act in presence of others
How we view love/relationships and sex in our world
What we can't and can do "to" one another.
I always assumed that our values were "common" in the fantasy world of Faerun, but I have read the WOTSQ, for example where females have a (sexual) relationship. I have read several times that drow can be cannabalistic, etc.
I found it very surprising and was thrilled knowing that Fearun was different in this than our own
Are there more examples of values and customs that do not correspond with our "own"?
Not including the discriminative faiths of Lloth and Bane for example or other examples mentioned above?
Is this something authors and designers do on purpose?
Is there a mention of male homosexuality in the Realms?
Just a thought
|
| AlacLuin |
Posted - 29 May 2005 : 01:09:16
quote:
Originally posted by Beowulf
I would venture that the Church of Ilmater, being so centred around suffering...<snip>
This here is why Ilmater supports marrage. |
| jebeddo |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 23:40:29
On an interesting note: why are all the heretic examples focused on sex and marriage?
Surely there are many more examples of heresy in the churches throughout the realms! Friendly association with a member of the opposite sect could be an act of heresy, unless it was only pretended to further the deity's aims. Blatantly going against the dogma of a deity is definitely heresy, and so is over friendliness with the church of gods of opposite sects. In some churches, over consumption of alcohol might be against a church's rules, or being too easily angered/violent when worshipping a peaceful deity...the list goes on. |
| Rhezarnos |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 11:36:23
quote:
Originally posted by lowtech
Unless I missed the latest book, I don't think they've "dismissed it".
Yup, definitely not dismissed. Being at the same bed together and talking the end of the Two Swords (Or is it Two Blades? Forgotten so fast...) made a some cheer and others groan. |
| lowtech |
Posted - 20 May 2005 : 06:44:54
quote:
Originally posted by Kaladorm
I think what he meant was that their love lasted a short time. Sure it took time to grow, but they only really accepted after a long time and then just as quickly dismissed it.
Guess it must get lonely when you're out adventuring, and lets face it, given the choice of bedding Catti-Brie or Bruenor......
Unless I missed the latest book, I don't think they've "dismissed it". I definitly saw the potential for that to happen, though... |
| Adarin |
Posted - 19 May 2005 : 12:02:55
Hello everyone! I think the greatest heresy faced by the churches of Faerun would be:
1) Marriage between a follower or priest/priestess of a church of the gods of the light and another follower or priest/priestess of a church of the gods of the dark.
|
| Shadovar |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 11:33:13
I think the real moral issue in the good churches of FR dedicated to the Gods of good and the light may be two issues:
1) Followers commiting acts of crimes, indecency or killing in the name of their god or for and to further the cause of their deity. When others pursue these followers for their crimes, the church and the follwers responsible will start to proclaim innocence and devoutness to their patron deities, and fight to defend these responsible followers or themselves, I think this would be one of the many reasons why there are religious wars on Faerun.
2) A follower of the Gods of Light befriending a follower of the dark gods or a race deemed evil and insidious. Or maybe talking with a follower of the dark gods or a race deemed evil and insidious.
3) Conversion of faith from the current church to a dark church instead, such as Church of Shar or Cyric. |
| Kaladorm |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 10:14:52
I think what he meant was that their love lasted a short time. Sure it took time to grow, but they only really accepted after a long time and then just as quickly dismissed it.
Guess it must get lonely when you're out adventuring, and lets face it, given the choice of bedding Catti-Brie or Bruenor...... |
| khorne |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 10:02:00
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
However, in many cases in FR stories, a male and female protagonist often get into a relationship and then sexual intercouse, even though they are not married and fall in love only after a short period of time.
Drizzt and Catti-Brie
They did not fall in love "over a short period of time". It took about ten years. |
| tauster |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 09:10:39
moral dilemmas of kelemvors followers:
1) good undead.
2) bloodstones spectral steed: why should doomguides (=2e speciality priests) - who battle undead - be able to summon a very undead-looking mount???
3) using minor undead as means justified by the ends: that one is a homebrew: in a solo-campaign, the gamer playing a doomguide will soon meet a collegue: a former myrkulite and from snowmantle (ex- zhentarim and grim enemy of the black robes) who operates a small emerald mine in the desertsmouth mountains - with the help of a dozen animated skeletons!
his argument: "they are mindless, and the end (=financing the battle against the black network with the gems from that mine) justifies the means. besides: obviously, kelemvor granted me that, and as long as we (the clerics) donīt tell everyone about it, and continue to fight the really bad undead [the player hunts a netherese vampire across the anauroch], itīs ok."
remember that kelemvorīs church ist still quite young and the process of organising has not yet ended. at least thatīs my interpretation, and it allows for great intra-religious conflicts (= room for roleplaying!)...
|
| The Sage |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 06:44:59
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
I imagine given the number of Churches in the ralms there would be at least 1 church that discriminates/disapproves of the issues previously mentioned
And in that respect, I would believe that there would be a few among the number of the most senior High Priests or Priestess in such clergies who have, at one time or another, taken "secret" lovers when their churches expressly forbid such activities.
|
| Dargoth |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 06:39:56
Im looking for more for issues in which a church would take a stand over (one way or another) rather than a church by church arguement.
Both Lolth and Bane (At least Pre time of Troubles) discrimianted over sex Lolth against Males and Bane against females. I imagine given the number of Churches in the ralms there would be at least 1 church that discriminates/disapproves of the issues previously mentioned |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 06:34:20
However, in many cases in FR stories, a male and female protagonist often get into a relationship and then sexual intercouse, even though they are not married and fall in love only after a short period of time.
Of the top of my head, here's a few:
Drizzt and Catti-Brie
Kara and Dorn (Year of Rogue Dragon Trilogy)
Vambran and the female druid (forgot name) (Scions of Arrabar Trilogy)
Dozens and dozens of characters in Ed Greenwood's books. Lol.
Amlaruil and Zoar (had like 3 kids before she official became Queen) |
|
|
