| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 16 Apr 2022 : 18:05:16
On a more lore-related question: how do you guys use Archdemons and Archdevils?
Because with evil gods, do they not seem redundant?
Are they gods themselves of evil or just essentially, big Planar Bosses stealing souls for their own amusement/power? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| nblanton |
Posted - 11 Apr 2024 : 00:33:48
You sort of hinted at a lot of stuff that when you say it all out like you did, especially the part about the primordials fleeing something and the idea of the "out of phase world" being more akin to a demiplane, could that "something" be Mak Thuum Ngatha?
It is already established that the nilshai that attacked the elves of the Sildëyuir and that these nilshai were worshiper's of Mak Thuum Ngatha who also fought with at least one previously mentioned primordial, the Prime Architect who becomes Primus.
Not sure if the Far Realm has been overdone or not, but everything in this scroll feels to me like it is developing a story along these lines. |
| Baltas |
Posted - 11 Jun 2022 : 11:40:43
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Bringing this back to the original topic, archdemons (at least according to 4e lore) are in essence "corrupted primordials" who were affected by the shard of evil plunged into the abyss by Thasmudyan... a being locked away in another "place" and not allowed to interact with this universe.
Well it depends which archdemons. Yugoloth lords (and Yugoloths) both being counted as a type of demon in 4E were born by the full corruption of the Shard of Pure Evil plunged by Tharizdun into the Elemental Chaos. With Baernaloth either helping him, or being the very first beings born this way.
And while a large part of demon Lords was characterized as corrupted Primordials, there are some exceptions.
Juiblex himself was also born as the embodiment of the corruption of the Elemental Chaos.
Obyrith lords (or at least Dagon, Pazuzu, Obox-ob, Pale Night and possibly the Queen of Chaos - she might also be a corrupted Primordial) are from a previous multiverse they destroyed, and indeed created the Shard of Pure Evil.
Demogorgon was indeed described as a Primordial corrupted by the shard, possibly the first one. Though him being a Primordial also might connect to him being the spawn of Shothotugg (possibly Azathoth) and Prukal in Kopru mythology, especially that it does seem Primordials don;t have a single source/origin. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 10 Jun 2022 : 23:32:16
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Has anybody thought perhaps the bit about gods fighting primordial was a bit of historic rewriting by the victors.
I'm not big on the 4e 5e lore but I'm guessing this whole war between gods and primordial took place a long, long time ago.
My question is who was worshipping the gods at this time. If it was before the aearee and batrachi and sarrukh then what was left. Were humans even around at this time.
If the answer is that there were no intelligent mortal beings, then there can be no gods because Ed has said that the power of the gods has always been directly linked to belief aka worship.
So what if these "gods" in the beginning of time were primordial but a different group or faction than the ones they fought. After the war was over, when sarrukh etc appeared, the story of this dawn war was told but the gods neglected to include the information that they were once primordial too, assumption did the rest.
Just a thought.
What I was putting forth is pretty much that MOST gods and primordials are probably some kind of ascended being. The difference between god and primordial in my view is just a different type of "power" gained and maybe what kind of source there is for that power. Some beings may be born with their power.
I'd also throw out there that the "god feat" isn't the whole sum of what empowers a god and keeps them alive, but rather they take on the ability to draw power from worshippers and that empowers their "god form". What do I mean by that? It kind of sounds like a bunch of mumbo jumbo, but the gist would be... a "god" loses worship and their "body" becomes a stone in the astral. But, I don't believe that ENDS the god. It separates their sentience from the stone body and draws it to another place (the place where vestiges reside perhaps). In essence, "gods" may be beings whose sentience resides in a place that we can't comprehend or visit, and they create a magical "drone" body to interact with this universe (their avatar).
So, THAT might be the difference between god and primordial. One is a sentience elsewhere driving a magical "drone"/"avatar" that works as its method of interacting with this world. The other is bound to a physical body IN this world. Gods use belief to fuel their abilities in this world, and if that fuel dries up, then their drone body "goes dead". If someone can reempower that body, then the sentience can "come back to life".... just like someone recharging the batteries on a robot that's controlled via a wireless link to somewhere else.
In this same scenario, it would imply that when a mortal ascends to godhood, their intellect is drawn from their physical presence into another place. There may even be phases to this, such that we have some gods that are "primebound"..... they are very similar to primordials in that if their body and mind are still together and bound to a world. In this type of scenario though, if they die, I wouldn't expect their body to go to the astral. This might have been the state of many of the gods at the time of the dawn war.
Bringing this back to the original topic, archdemons (at least according to 4e lore) are in essence "corrupted primordials" who were affected by the shard of evil plunged into the abyss by Thasmudyan... a being locked away in another "place" and not allowed to interact with this universe. |
| Baltas |
Posted - 04 Jun 2022 : 18:49:10
That's possible - that, or how (I wrote about it some time ago) "primordial" is an exonym ( which still fits with your theory) or a polyphyletic grouping.
In Nerath, Io/Asgoroth was a god (despite being strongly connected to elemental planes), but in Realmspace is classified as Primordial. On Nerath Io standed with gods, but in the Realms, he was on the Primordials side.
Ramenos, and the first Primus in his previous state (as the Prime Architect) are classified as Primordials. While Ramenos is a World Serpent fragment, with the World Serpent being counted as a Primal Spirit.
Annam was stated to be the father of at least part of Primordials, though his latter children aren't counted as such.
A argument against it, is the 4 Elemental Lords and Ubtao are counted as Primordials, despite Ubtao explicitly betrayed other Primordials.
But it could be due to Ubtao joining the side of future gods latter, and the Elemental Lords being more neutral, or that they retained, or at least more of their primordial nature. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 04 Jun 2022 : 18:20:44
Has anybody thought perhaps the bit about gods fighting primordial was a bit of historic rewriting by the victors.
I'm not big on the 4e 5e lore but I'm guessing this whole war between gods and primordial took place a long, long time ago.
My question is who was worshipping the gods at this time. If it was before the aearee and batrachi and sarrukh then what was left. Were humans even around at this time.
If the answer is that there were no intelligent mortal beings, then there can be no gods because Ed has said that the power of the gods has always been directly linked to belief aka worship.
So what if these "gods" in the beginning of time were primordial but a different group or faction than the ones they fought. After the war was over, when sarrukh etc appeared, the story of this dawn war was told but the gods neglected to include the information that they were once primordial too, assumption did the rest.
Just a thought. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 04 Jun 2022 : 16:51:13
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It doesn't matter where they came from. My thing is that the gods are here first, they're established, they're doing their thing, and then the primordials try to take it from them.
Honestly, the whole thing of Ao making a world for the primordials makes no sense. He's rewarding them for their actions. And if the goal was to protect Abeir-Toril, he could have blocked the primordials from accessing it -- or from accessing Realmspace entirely. You don't keep someone from breaking into your house by giving them the house next door.
Also, why "twin" the world and then set it out of phase when you have an entire solar system to choose from?
I always go back to the concept that Ao is powerful, but NOT that powerful. That's why I hate the idea of twinning a world at the drop of a hat. I do like the idea of the primordials being invaders as well though. Basically, the interior of a crystal sphere is SEPARATE from the elemental planes, so I prefer the idea that SOME type of being(s) OR natural action that is/are extremely powerful STEALS energy from the elemental planes to make their own little "universe" and then "ties" it to the outer planes as well.
So, in that scenario... rather than it being like the titans of greek myth, or of Skarn, etc... your idea of the primordials being interlopers makes sense. However, making Abeir something of a prison plane like Carceri / Tarterus in the outer planes OR making Abeir actually in the spirit world makes sense to me. If the spirit world were then "cut off" from Faerun as a last ditch effort by Ao to keep the primordials out, and LATER somehow it starts to resynch in areas like Kara-Tur.... maybe as a result of actions of the fey (because maybe the feywild and spirit world have links to each other).
I should also note that while a lot of people believe primordials should only be "born" from the natural elemental chaos of the universe.... I actually think it's not a bad idea if "beings" can "ascend" to being a primordial just like they can become a god. It might be consider just another "feat" like Eric once described being given to gods. That would then explain Bazim-Gorag, a former batrachi, suddenly becoming a primordial. In fact, the batrachi that released the primordials might have been jealous of Bazim-Gorag becoming a primordial and been seeking a way to become one himself.
On that concept too (Bazim-Gorag becoming a primordial being), it might be interesting if the "slaad lords" are actually just another kind of primordial... and maybe the slaad are former batrachi... and PERHAPS there was no plane of limbo BEFORE the batrachi. If you look at Limbo, its almost like the elemental chaos, and so maybe they were attempting some very powerful effect to steal elemental energy and instead created an outer plane. Also, if you look at slaad, a lot of them have powers related to fire.... putting some ties between them, Bazim-Gorag, the batrachi, and firenewts could make a decent story. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 04 Jun 2022 : 15:36:19
It doesn't matter where they came from. My thing is that the gods are here first, they're established, they're doing their thing, and then the primordials try to take it from them.
Honestly, the whole thing of Ao making a world for the primordials makes no sense. He's rewarding them for their actions. And if the goal was to protect Abeir-Toril, he could have blocked the primordials from accessing it -- or from accessing Realmspace entirely. You don't keep someone from breaking into your house by giving them the house next door.
Also, why "twin" the world and then set it out of phase when you have an entire solar system to choose from? |
| Thane of Fife |
Posted - 04 Jun 2022 : 11:57:48
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm looking specifically at the part that has them both on Abeir-Toril, fighting for it, and so Ao split Abeir off into its own, slightly out of phase but still in the same basic place world so that the primordials could have it.
My spin is that the primordials were from someplace else entirely, maybe not even on the Prime. The gods were on Abeir-Toril first, and then the primordials came along, deciding they liked this world better than their existing home. They failed to beat the gods, though, and were kicked back to where they came from. Later on, they came back trying again, and to try to swing mortals (and the all-important power of their belief) their way, the primordials (through the followers they already had) spread the story about having already been on Abeir-Toril until Ao let them have their own place.
In other words, they were always interlopers and the here-but-not-quite-here Abeir didn't exist.
It is my opinion that this avoids a lot of the issues caused by the 4E team's retcons. It keeps the basics of their lore -- primordials, a war, another place that somehow merged with the Realms -- but avoids the breaking of prior lore their version required, and also makes more sense. Obviously, YMMV.
I guess I don't see the part where they were ever from Toril. My reading of the 4e campaign guide is:
-Ao creates the universe.
-The primordials come from outside.
-The gods are either created from the residue of creation or come from outside.
-The gods and primordials fight over the world. Their fighting is so intense that it pretty much scours Toril clean of life.
-The gods win and the primordials are sealed away.
-Life returns.
-Eventually, the batrachi are fighting the titans and decide to free some of the primordials.
-The gods come back for Round 2.
-Ao decides to saw the baby in half and give one world each to the gods and primordials rather than risk Toril being scoured clean again.
I'm not trying to tell you you should stick to the 4e lore or anything like that. I just feel like what you're describing goes through some unnecessary hoops. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 04 Jun 2022 : 07:24:42
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yep, could have been many things. Could have been the atmosphere getting clouded over by debris. I'm just throwing out ideas to see what sounds like a good twist, and I've thrown out several revolving around the creation of Coliar recently (and purposes of various planets). I do know that the sudden creation of a new "out of phase" world isn't something I'm very fond of, which it seems like you aren't either.
I can't stand the idea, honestly; I think it creates way too many problems. That's why I lean towards my idea that it's all PR and that the world the primordials came from is somewhere else (maybe not even on the Prime) entirely. I'm also thinking that world may not have been their homeworld, and that there was one or more shattered worlds left in their wake. Maybe something about the primordials has a destabilizing effect that eventually drains or even destroys worlds. Or maybe there's something behind the primordials that even they fear, so they have to flee from it periodically.
I can agree on that as well (that sticking to the 4e canon that the world "shares the same sun and moon" creates a lot of hoops to work through). You know me though, always trying to plug ways to keep things "true" while "making it different".
As you say that idea of the Primordials fleeing from somewhere else though, it occurs to me that we MIGHT be able to actually make a truism. What if the "path" that drew the Primordials to realmspace physically was the "lighting of the sun".... or to rephrase that "the opening of the many portals to the fire elemental plane on the celestial body that becomes the sun". This would fit with them being so elementally focused.
In doing this, if another crystal sphere also had a "sun" that was actually portals to this same place on the elemental plane of fire... then it might be said that they "share the same sun". Also, given that the "moon" is also technically tied to a goddess (i.e. Selune), if that goddess is actually multispheric with ties to that other crystal sphere controlling a moon there... it might be considered "the same moon". I know that's semantic BS to a degree... but it might be an interesting twist. Maybe if Selune herself is a primordial like entity who was actually originally birthed in the plane of radiance, and thus the "stars" that are nothing more than portals to the plane of radiance were her own original path into the crystal sphere.
To add to this, IF the abyss was actually birthed from the elemental chaos, as has been intimated.... then SOMEHOW.... the lighting of the sun by outer planar entities might be linked to the creation of the version of the abyss that's tied to realmspace (because there may be multiple "copies" of the abyss in theory... i.e. demon lords dying in one world doesn't mean they die everywhere). That might be a lot harder to create as well... and I'd probably throw that out.... but noodling on it for now. |
| PattPlays |
Posted - 04 Jun 2022 : 05:37:10
quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur
I wanted to chime in an say I am enjoying this scroll. I don't have much to add since I have been trying to work out just how the multiverse works in my home Realms. It all started with figuring out how souls interact with the afterlife, then I ended up on a tangent looking into truly ancient species, which led me to wondering just when the creation of Toril occurred and when the War of Light and Dark happened relative to other cosmic events. Ideally I would like to stick to as much lore as possible, this includes not ruling out Planescape material. I know "godly events are outside time", but sometimes that just isn't enough for me. Like when Toril came into being was the Blood War already old? How far back in time did the Illithid Empire send ships? Where do Aboleths, Spell Weavers, and the Juna fall? It quickly turns into a tangled ball of wires but all part of the fun.
Anyway, Ed did a few articles on the Nine Hells in Dragon 75 p.16 and Dragon 76 p.22 and Dragon 91 p. 18. There is a bit of info on how Bane specifically interacts with Devils. Maybe those would be helpful to people here.
Since you're having fun I'll say what someone on youtube described- a bit of a hot take. As I recall it went a bit like this.
The creatures of Carcerai, spawned by one of the original Yugoloth's own creative process, each individually (as there are a limited number that this being created) hold beside them a geometric object linked to their life force and power. They share these with mortals when interacting. The Batrachi have many extremely ancient structures scattered across Toril. They have a connection to the primordial and intrinsically chaotic/alien powers that the Dead Three encountered as mortals guided by a unique Spellweaver Ascendant. Many of the oldest structures on land and beneath the sea bear the signature 'crystaline' structures of the Batrachi. Objects and locales so alien as to be thought of as Spellweaver may in-fact be Batrachi and may be points of interest wrought with the signature stain of the Gehreleths (also associated with the Supreme Throne and thus another link to the Batrachi).
Something like that- and I just found that the shape was a Triangle. A bit of a stretch to call anything geometric a triangle because, well, that's kind of unavoidable.
Buuuut there is that Spellweaver/Batrachi overlap with the "ancient powered superstructure" theme in the Monument of the Ancients.
I like the wild claims.  Especially with Jergal a couple tangents away at all times.
Edit: Oh! As for aboleths.. If you Search for the name of a specific disgusting Neogi or Mind Flayer God you'll find a thread here discussing the story of the gigantic living Ur-Spelljammer struck by a time-displaced planetoid and the different gross body parts falling to toril and becoming gods of the lesser beings spawned from the flesh-mess and the elemental fuel-rod cells which would later become DRAGON EGGS from H'Catha that were onboard as cargo.
That thread was wild. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 04 Jun 2022 : 04:27:52
quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur
I like this a lot. Primordials are another piece that I have wanted to fit but had trouble wrapping my head around. Istead of desiring to steal Toril, maybe they were fleeing something. Instead of alternate Prime maybe they were gods of an alternate multiverse and they fled it's collapse or better yet it consumption by the Far Realm, that brings in another puzzle piece that I've been trying to fit.
This could explain why they were so powerful but couldn't win in this cosmology. The godly rules were different so though they had some amount of pure power they lacked the ability to function like gods native to this cosmos.
How would you explain the Second Sundering? Would Ao still be involved?
The initial Spellplague would have been when their invasion began. Ao's kinda tricky to explain, but I figure maybe he was letting the gods fight so that they'd better appreciate Toril and want to be more attentive to their duties. Or maybe he needed them to fight for a while so he could do what he needed to do to kick the primordials out.
It could have even been that Ao was occupied dealing with the overpower of the primordials, so the gods had to go it alone.
Either way, the Second Sundering was when the gods won and turned their attention back to the world and started actively trying to undo the damage. |
| Gelcur |
Posted - 04 Jun 2022 : 02:50:00
I like this a lot. Primordials are another piece that I have wanted to fit but had trouble wrapping my head around. Istead of desiring to steal Toril, maybe they were fleeing something. Instead of alternate Prime maybe they were gods of an alternate multiverse and they fled it's collapse or better yet it consumption by the Far Realm, that brings in another puzzle piece that I've been trying to fit.
This could explain why they were so powerful but couldn't win in this cosmology. The godly rules were different so though they had some amount of pure power they lacked the ability to function like gods native to this cosmos.
How would you explain the Second Sundering? Would Ao still be involved? |
| PattPlays |
Posted - 04 Jun 2022 : 02:39:11
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Gargauth used to be availlable for this but he was only a Demigod and in the shield. Now we have an evil god of wealth, style, and taste to do subtle manipulations behind the scenes. Talos was used this way in the second Moonshae Trilogy btu he's not like that...at all.
Just to note, Gargauth wasn't IN the shield prior to 5e. He was speaking through a magic item. They made him get "entrapped" as part of a means to bring him back it seems.
There's still a half of him roaming around, right? Or did they take that one? Didn't he split apart in.. Priapurl? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 04 Jun 2022 : 02:24:46
quote:
Originally posted by Thane of Fife
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That's why I lean towards my idea that it's all PR and that the world the primordials came from is somewhere else (maybe not even on the Prime) entirely.
I'm not really up on the 5e lore, but isn't that the original 4e canon - Ao created the material universe and the primordials and gods came from outside to fight over it? That's how the 4e campaign guide reads to me, at least.
I'm looking specifically at the part that has them both on Abeir-Toril, fighting for it, and so Ao split Abeir off into its own, slightly out of phase but still in the same basic place world so that the primordials could have it.
My spin is that the primordials were from someplace else entirely, maybe not even on the Prime. The gods were on Abeir-Toril first, and then the primordials came along, deciding they liked this world better than their existing home. They failed to beat the gods, though, and were kicked back to where they came from. Later on, they came back trying again, and to try to swing mortals (and the all-important power of their belief) their way, the primordials (through the followers they already had) spread the story about having already been on Abeir-Toril until Ao let them have their own place.
In other words, they were always interlopers and the here-but-not-quite-here Abeir didn't exist.
It is my opinion that this avoids a lot of the issues caused by the 4E team's retcons. It keeps the basics of their lore -- primordials, a war, another place that somehow merged with the Realms -- but avoids the breaking of prior lore their version required, and also makes more sense. Obviously, YMMV. |
| Thane of Fife |
Posted - 04 Jun 2022 : 00:57:47
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That's why I lean towards my idea that it's all PR and that the world the primordials came from is somewhere else (maybe not even on the Prime) entirely.
I'm not really up on the 5e lore, but isn't that the original 4e canon - Ao created the material universe and the primordials and gods came from outside to fight over it? That's how the 4e campaign guide reads to me, at least. |
| Gelcur |
Posted - 04 Jun 2022 : 00:45:58
I wanted to chime in an say I am enjoying this scroll. I don't have much to add since I have been trying to work out just how the multiverse works in my home Realms. It all started with figuring out how souls interact with the afterlife, then I ended up on a tangent looking into truly ancient species, which led me to wondering just when the creation of Toril occurred and when the War of Light and Dark happened relative to other cosmic events. Ideally I would like to stick to as much lore as possible, this includes not ruling out Planescape material. I know "godly events are outside time", but sometimes that just isn't enough for me. Like when Toril came into being was the Blood War already old? How far back in time did the Illithid Empire send ships? Where do Aboleths, Spell Weavers, and the Juna fall? It quickly turns into a tangled ball of wires but all part of the fun.
Anyway, Ed did a few articles on the Nine Hells in Dragon 75 p.16 and Dragon 76 p.22 and Dragon 91 p. 18. There is a bit of info on how Bane specifically interacts with Devils. Maybe those would be helpful to people here. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Jun 2022 : 23:08:16
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yep, could have been many things. Could have been the atmosphere getting clouded over by debris. I'm just throwing out ideas to see what sounds like a good twist, and I've thrown out several revolving around the creation of Coliar recently (and purposes of various planets). I do know that the sudden creation of a new "out of phase" world isn't something I'm very fond of, which it seems like you aren't either.
I can't stand the idea, honestly; I think it creates way too many problems. That's why I lean towards my idea that it's all PR and that the world the primordials came from is somewhere else (maybe not even on the Prime) entirely. I'm also thinking that world may not have been their homeworld, and that there was one or more shattered worlds left in their wake. Maybe something about the primordials has a destabilizing effect that eventually drains or even destroys worlds. Or maybe there's something behind the primordials that even they fear, so they have to flee from it periodically. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 03 Jun 2022 : 20:28:24
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
To note as well... it may very well have been that the Sarrukh and batrachi empires were on the planet Abeir, and the "changing of the stars" was their world being displaced INTO Toril/realmspace. In other words, they may have been the invaders.
I've noted that the phrase "changing of the stars" is incredibly vague... And as I see it, it doesn't necessary mean existing stars disappeared and new stars appeared -- stars change on a seasonal basis. It could also mean they were in unfamiliar positions. So "changing of the stars" could be as simple as winter stars showing during summer and vice versa, or it could have been that Toril's orbit changed so that it was familiar stars but in new positions.
It could have also been some atmospheric change, making the normal stars brighter/less bright and/or changing their colors.
Yep, could have been many things. Could have been the atmosphere getting clouded over by debris. I'm just throwing out ideas to see what sounds like a good twist, and I've thrown out several revolving around the creation of Coliar recently (and purposes of various planets). I do know that the sudden creation of a new "out of phase" world isn't something I'm very fond of, which it seems like you aren't either. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Jun 2022 : 16:35:10
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
To note as well... it may very well have been that the Sarrukh and batrachi empires were on the planet Abeir, and the "changing of the stars" was their world being displaced INTO Toril/realmspace. In other words, they may have been the invaders.
I've noted that the phrase "changing of the stars" is incredibly vague... And as I see it, it doesn't necessary mean existing stars disappeared and new stars appeared -- stars change on a seasonal basis. It could also mean they were in unfamiliar positions. So "changing of the stars" could be as simple as winter stars showing during summer and vice versa, or it could have been that Toril's orbit changed so that it was familiar stars but in new positions.
It could have also been some atmospheric change, making the normal stars brighter/less bright and/or changing their colors. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 03 Jun 2022 : 15:06:01
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
My personal theory is that the primordials are not and never have been from Toril. They're from somewhere else, and the Dawn War was them trying to invade Toril and take it over for themselves. All that rot about them being from Toril and then Ao retconning I mean, twinning an oddly non-twin world for them, that's just PR spread by the followers of those primordials. I'm also inclined to say that everything we know about the Spellplague is wrong; it was another attempt of the primordials to flee their dying world and invade Abeir-Toril again.
Yeah, I'll retcon a retcon to try to make it into something that doesn't break all prior lore.
Agreed on this idea.... at least that we should make it that Ao didn't "twin a world" all of a sudden. From 4e we have something from the FR player's guide that Abeir orbits the same sun and shares the same moon. The two worlds are essentially trying to occupy the same space.
It would work to me that the "release of the primordials" actually tried to "transport" Abeir INTO the space where Toril currently exists. Maybe this caused a new moon made of ice to appear above the world in which red dragon eggs had been entrapped. Maybe whenever the moon and sun align in some specific way it triggers a future realignment of Abeir and Toril (which really adds a bit of nastiness to what Vhostym the Sojourner did with causing the moon to shift and correspondingly a bunch of dragon eggs to rain down). To note, I bet many of us picture the Sundering as happening in moments, but it may have actually have been decades (in fact, probably was). For all we know, given that the Githyanki have some kind of relationship with red dragons, the sojourner may have been paying back some kind of debt to Tiamat.
Let me add that I'm not sure I like what I'm about to write, but in theory, it might be that Coliar was "born" as part of this transference. It is essentially a great collection of earthmotes and "watermotes", and if Abeir was known for one thing, it was earthmotes. So, if Abeir was a world surrounded by orbiting earthmotes and watermotes that orbited WAAYYYY out (remember Coliar :Size G - 40,000-100,000 miles in diameter: orbits out to roughly 10 TIMES the diameter of Toril :Size E - 4,000-10,000 miles in diameter: ... so in terms of VOLUME, that's 1 thousand times the volume... granted far from solid, but just showing that Toril/Abeir at the center takes up very little space). Correspondingly, this is also when the Aeaeree show up on Toril following this sundering.... so a people very involved with Air magic from a place with earth and water islands are heralded with the raining down of "fire dragon" eggs.
So, maybe Abeir was an attempt to phase in another world, one surrounded by thousands of orbiting earth motes. Maybe it was an attempt to transport Toril OUT of realmspace as part of phasing IN of the new world. Maybe the pathway IN was via something like the spirit world, which is supposed to lie right alongside Toril (and in some areas of Toril replaces the astral... i.e. Kara-Tur, possibly Maztica/Anchorome, etc...), such that traversing to Abeir is actually just traversing to the spirit world. Then, when Abeir doesn't displace Toril, some "bonds" to the floating earthmotes break away and Coliar is born as this "spinning collective" of earthmotes is drawn into a new orbit. Meanwhile, some of these earthmotes slammed into Toril in various spots and the survivors became the Aearee. There may have even been separately "a crystal sun" and "an ice moon" that orbited that world of Abeir that both tried to transfer in. The destruction of the "crystal sun" may have built the steelsky around Abeir, and the ice moon may have been what crashed to Toril making the sea of fallen stars.
To note as well... it may very well have been that the Sarrukh and batrachi empires were on the planet Abeir, and the "changing of the stars" was their world being displaced INTO Toril/realmspace. In other words, they may have been the invaders.
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 03 Jun 2022 : 14:25:09
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Gargauth used to be availlable for this but he was only a Demigod and in the shield. Now we have an evil god of wealth, style, and taste to do subtle manipulations behind the scenes. Talos was used this way in the second Moonshae Trilogy btu he's not like that...at all.
Just to note, Gargauth wasn't IN the shield prior to 5e. He was speaking through a magic item. They made him get "entrapped" as part of a means to bring him back it seems. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 01 Jun 2022 : 02:23:31
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
quote:
Originally posted by Outlaw Pope
Fiends want to corrupt, upend, and destroy the status quo of reality as - demons want to rend, shape, or outright destroy the multiverse and devils seem to interested in reshaping it toward their vision, upending, destroying, and enslaving the gods who made/betrayed them.
>enslaving the gods
It's so weird that gods and 'primordials' work together to make Toril and then the gods banish their hard working allies into the material plane, probably powering the natural magical fields of Toril that existed long before the Sarrukh stood upright.
Find a primordial underground and enslave it to power your furnace for millennia and nobody bats an eye. Attempt to bring a god to the material plane to use it to power an infinite energy device to create infinite resources to end world conflict and free mortals from needing to pray when they can just tap an infinite well and everyone loses their minds. Not that anyone could pull off that world-peace-by-imprisoning-the-gods plan. Asmodeus certainly wouldn't. He'd convince you that what you really want is revenge and chaining the gods in his backyard will emotionally satisfy you more than any torture mere mortals could imagine.
My personal theory is that the primordials are not and never have been from Toril. They're from somewhere else, and the Dawn War was them trying to invade Toril and take it over for themselves. All that rot about them being from Toril and then Ao retconning I mean, twinning an oddly non-twin world for them, that's just PR spread by the followers of those primordials. I'm also inclined to say that everything we know about the Spellplague is wrong; it was another attempt of the primordials to flee their dying world and invade Abeir-Toril again.
Yeah, I'll retcon a retcon to try to make it into something that doesn't break all prior lore.
Also, I think there are different categories of primordial... Really, I think primordials are, in general, just seriously high-power elementals. Mortals can, through various means, undergo apotheosis and become deities; we already know there are different power levels among elementals, so I say that primordials are simply another step beyond the existing structure. That's why we have primordials that are relatively weak and can be shoved into a forge for centuries, while others are comparable to deities. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 01 Jun 2022 : 02:21:17
While not canon to Forgotten Realms, in my home games, Asmodeus is a local FR deity.
He killed Amaunator and claimed his godhood.
However, the players discovered Amaunator actually had foreseen the end of the Netherese civilization and arranged for his death to impact Asmodeus. Asmodeus was infused with an overwhelming disgust for Chaos and thus began the Blood War. |
| Storyteller Hero |
Posted - 01 Jun 2022 : 01:23:14
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
quote:
Originally posted by Outlaw Pope
Fiends want to corrupt, upend, and destroy the status quo of reality as - demons want to rend, shape, or outright destroy the multiverse and devils seem to interested in reshaping it toward their vision, upending, destroying, and enslaving the gods who made/betrayed them.
>enslaving the gods
It's so weird that gods and 'primordials' work together to make Toril and then the gods banish their hard working allies into the material plane, probably powering the natural magical fields of Toril that existed long before the Sarrukh stood upright.
If my analysis of the Dawn War era and DnD multiverse lore is correct, it might not be that the gods banished the primordials anywhere, but rather the primordials who got stuck where they were, whether in the Material, or other planes.
The gods seem able to planeshift at will unless they're in an environment that suppresses it, such as how Asmodeus keeps or kept (wink) Tiamat in Avernus. Other beings don't get that privilege for the most part, but may have been able to, before the multiverse was restructured into its current form.
My theory is that the gods created the barriers and separations between planes to gain the logistical advantage in the Dawn War, which is how they ended an effective deadlock that threatened to turn in favor of the primordials as the demons began to become a serious threat.
2e Guide to Hell provides an origin story of Asmodeus that perhaps can be spun to place Asmodeus (and the deity Jazirian) as leaders of the project that built the walls of the current DnD multiverse.
As such, Asmodeus killing his former master and setting up the realm of Baator as the Nine Hells takes on new meaning. Perhaps his master was against the project and had to be eliminated for the sake of winning the war...
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| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 29 May 2022 : 19:11:30
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
quote:
Originally posted by Outlaw Pope
Fiends want to corrupt, upend, and destroy the status quo of reality as - demons want to rend, shape, or outright destroy the multiverse and devils seem to interested in reshaping it toward their vision, upending, destroying, and enslaving the gods who made/betrayed them.
>enslaving the gods
It's so weird that gods and 'primordials' work together to make Toril and then the gods banish their hard working allies into the material plane, probably powering the natural magical fields of Toril that existed long before the Sarrukh stood upright.
Find a primordial underground and enslave it to power your furnace for millennia and nobody bats an eye. Attempt to bring a god to the material plane to use it to power an infinite energy device to create infinite resources to end world conflict and free mortals from needing to pray when they can just tap an infinite well and everyone loses their minds. Not that anyone could pull off that world-peace-by-imprisoning-the-gods plan. Asmodeus certainly wouldn't. He'd convince you that what you really want is revenge and chaining the gods in his backyard will emotionally satisfy you more than any torture mere mortals could imagine.
I mean, there's all sorts of things wrong with this scientific premise to begin with, my fellow Tinker Gnome. Gods in Dungeons and Dragons need worship in order to have all of their power unlike Primordials. You would need to pray HARDER to get the God-Furnace going or you'll just end up with a chunk of real estate in the Astral Plane. |
| PattPlays |
Posted - 29 May 2022 : 18:34:51
quote:
Originally posted by Outlaw Pope
Fiends want to corrupt, upend, and destroy the status quo of reality as - demons want to rend, shape, or outright destroy the multiverse and devils seem to interested in reshaping it toward their vision, upending, destroying, and enslaving the gods who made/betrayed them.
>enslaving the gods
It's so weird that gods and 'primordials' work together to make Toril and then the gods banish their hard working allies into the material plane, probably powering the natural magical fields of Toril that existed long before the Sarrukh stood upright.
Find a primordial underground and enslave it to power your furnace for millennia and nobody bats an eye. Attempt to bring a god to the material plane to use it to power an infinite energy device to create infinite resources to end world conflict and free mortals from needing to pray when they can just tap an infinite well and everyone loses their minds. Not that anyone could pull off that world-peace-by-imprisoning-the-gods plan. Asmodeus certainly wouldn't. He'd convince you that what you really want is revenge and chaining the gods in his backyard will emotionally satisfy you more than any torture mere mortals could imagine. |
| Marc |
Posted - 29 May 2022 : 14:49:21
I mostly play in planar campaigns, so archfiends and evil gods are kinda the same, powers. If a power is called a god depends on the continent or planet, for example in Mulhorand Cyric or Lolth would be archfiends. Some evil powers that depend too much on their worshippers are collectively shaped by them, others who don't, like yugoloths, remain pure evil. All the stories how one god created or destroyed the world are propaganda, the multiverse's too big, the Athar are right. |
| Outlaw Pope |
Posted - 29 May 2022 : 11:41:24
I feel where it comes to fiends, their general modus operandi tends to be the subversion, usurpation, and destruction of the Gods due to their connections to real life lore. While they may take on deific aspects in other spheres and superficially they resemble gods in their role and power you can really notice a difference usually in that, at least in the realms, clerics of fiendish powers are not bound by any particular alignment rules and you probably are not going to be 'abandoned' by your sponsor because you likely did something transactional for that connection - much like a warlock. I think this is covered in one of the FR handbooks.
Demons have a huge influence in pre 4e Realms, and the other kinds of fiends less so.
Evil Powers and Fiends might superficially seem similar, have similar goals, and might even work together (Bane having baatezu in his retinue and to send as heralds and so forth) but I do believe overall you are regarded as worse than even a cleric of an evil power for dealing with such things (and probably seen as foolish for doing so by other evil people).
Fiends want to corrupt, upend, and destroy the status quo of reality as - demons want to rend, shape, or outright destroy the multiverse and devils seem to interested in reshaping it toward their vision, upending, destroying, and enslaving the gods who made/betrayed them. Yugoloths want to prolong their struggles as they are purely evil and unknowable.
Good aligned outsiders in the FR planes are usually aligned with/allied to the good powers in a similar way but good doesn't really infight like evil does so even if they do not agree with a certain wholesome power they're not going to coup them or anything. There is room for everyone who is (good). Goodly outsiders also do not covet the vanity of worship and rather want to do their (jobs) as defined by the gods in ancient days.
I am not sure if a lot of that is gone over in core FR but I recall something like this in the fiendish codices in 3x and the good-guy book in FR as well as the... opposite of the Book of Vile Darkness with the awful succubi in love before a paladin art. lol. |
| redking |
Posted - 26 Apr 2022 : 05:14:17
The Gates of Hell by Dicefreaks is *my* Nine Hells.
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/dicefreaks/the-gates-of-hell-t22.html
Possibly the greatest treatment of perdition ever published, and free too. |
| PattPlays |
Posted - 21 Apr 2022 : 04:00:47
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
Attributing an entire D&D campaign's evil members' actions to Asmodeus: supreme archdevil of hell feels like the ultimate finale on a quest against cruel domination in any D&D setting. And just maybe, you can kill him and take the Ruby Rod- if not the Hells themself. But when Asmodeus serves the roles of their divine portfolios and takes credit for those fundamental forces of nature and society, it feels like he's no longer a ruler of a territory but rather a spoke in the wheel of humanoid culture. Like a plane of existence, he won't go away until he's forgotten or re-understood- or supplanted. I'm just rambling.
I suppose it's how you define how important the PCs are in any given campaign. For me, the important thing to remember is the PCs are the most important people in the universe. They are the spokes of the wheel for world-changing events and permanent alterations to both the pantheon as well as world status quo.
Thanks for your amazing and agreeable responses!
I love the idea that the gods are the spokes of the wheel, until player characters are made. Ever since the The Immortal Rules the 'greatest' accomplishment a PC is expected to accomplish is to supplant a god. The 'mantling' of divines and fiends by player characters (to use The Elder Scrolls for reference, which explicitly uses a wheel with spokes for its divine metaphysics) is a fascinating element of gameplay narratives and something that is all over the forgotten realms.
If a player wants to "kill a god!!" then they can, but those PCs will typically be coaxed into "taking their chair" and retiring into the setting as a new god- but without shaking up the cosmic order too much. The mortal is placated, and can slowly lose themselves to their responsibilities. Just like how the outer planes grind out your individuality until you're a petitioner- a part of the plane itself: something that maintains the status quo by convincing a spirit that this is what it wants.
You'd think that Ao and the inhabitants of the outer planes wouldn't want player characters going around killing gods and taking their places, but really that's exactly what they want you to do if you got the chance. They even don't mind you hunting down other portfolios and attempting to become a more powerful god- because every crown you put on your head is another set of strings constraining you to the cosmic order.
What 'they' don't want you to do is to see you kill a god and not claim their power and responsibilities for themselves. Not in the sense of refusing divine power and living your life as you normally would, no. I know PC's who would reject power- as in to return to mundane life. What you don't imagine happening often is a PC so dedicated to being 'that guy' at their D&D table that the PC doesn't want to just keep everything going on as normal. What 'they' don't want you to do when you get to "the end of D&D" is to start destroying the setting from the inside out. What 'they' don't want spirits to do is to do what Cyric did: Get up there and start tearing cables.
The obyrith inherently want to destroy the setting because they don't want to play D&D. They want to destroy the setting to make everything look more like the setting from whatever twisted 'game' they came from. I mean, imagine how that interaction with Jergal and the mortal dark three would go if one of the three 'players' just wanted to break something even after playing in this campaign for years of in-world time. "I want to be a king!" "I want your chair!" and Bhaal instead of saying "I am become Death!" throws a fit and convinces everyone present to fight eachother to the death. Then, like, Malar shows up and bites the head off of whomever remains wounded and becomes the god of both Stalking and Death- going on a stealthy god-killing spree that makes the spellplague look like a joke and doesn't give the other gods time to replace or subvert the nuclear mega-god beast that starts Ragnarock early and gives the Demons the edge to destroy reality. (Though how reality falls apart depends on who pushes the reset button. The spell-weavers, tharizdun, multiple different obyrith, and even your player character can all re-make the universe in different apocalyptic ways. Or, the mega-god beast could escape out through mount celestia into, say, our world.) Same situation if any one of the dead three (that is to say, a Player Character) ends up winning in that not-so-glamorous cartoon pile of violence. The gods have plans to maintain stability even when mortals are taking the reigns. If those plans go wrong, then the Abyss can be let loose by incompetence. The same thing for Hell. If someone were able to take Asmodeus' role without being as good as Asmodeus, then Baator could fall if an Archduke of hell doesn't step up to do the job right. Or worse- Zargon or Gargauth come back and start a civil war that lets the Blood War into Nessus.
Asmodeus, in another "so evil I'm good" moves, makes being a lawful evil god look like a pleasant thing. If you had Asmodeus weak and bleeding, showing just how much he has been wounded since, perhaps, tearing himself from his brother and falling bloody into Nessus, then they would probably convince you with their last breaths- blood of pit fiend power trickling down their arm, that the best decision the PC could make is to take up the rod, the cloak, and the chair and become the new Asmodeus. The moment someone else claims his title, the Archdukes will want to subvert the new ruler. So, you have to convince them to let you rule them- which means doing the same things Asmodeus did- because the whole point of Asmodeus (as a Lawful Spirit of the old ordered cosmos) is that he makes the objectively 'correct' decision for the sake of the cosmos and ensures the status quo of the Hells and the Blood War. If you want to do his job, you have to do his moves. When you're in his chair with his clothes and his rod and his responsibilities and his pit-fiend blood, you're basically just Asmodeus. He makes the position look glamorous- despite being in constant pain himself. He is the ultimate propagandist. Zargon used to be the supreme power of Baator, and Asmodeus would have you all convinced that everyone is better off for having Asmodeus as Archdevil instead of Zargon. Even though Zargon might be able to fight off infinite demons without the need for the Lawful Spirits to expose themselves to the Abyss. That said, I think if Tharizdun got a hold of Zargon then the cosmos might be rightly screwed. Imagine Ultimate Evil fused with an Unbreakable Horn.. |
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