| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Lord Donnachie |
Posted - 04 Apr 2005 : 15:31:56
I have always wondered the difference between a family and a clan.
A "family" would represent the family unit and the extended family, named say...Battlehammer. Everyone in that family would have the same last name and have common relation.
However the term "clan" is more foggy for me. Am I right to understand that several families make up a clan? Would all of these families share the same last name? Would the family elders follow a common clan leader? Or is the term clan used to describe the extended family?
Take CLAN Battlehammer from Mithral Hall. Bruenor was the only dwarf I have seen with that name. Other dwarves mentioned in other FR sources connected with MH all have different last names yet are living in MH. Living in the Hall would place you in Clan Battlehammer? Pwent for example, is not from Icewind Dale and not an original member of Bruenor's clan. Pwent follows Bruenor as a king (In this case Bruenor is clan leader and a king).
I don't know I have always wondered about the social dynamics of Dwarven clan life!
cheers,
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Shadovar |
Posted - 16 Jun 2005 : 09:58:06
I see... thank you, hammer of Moradin for answering my queries. |
| hammer of Moradin |
Posted - 16 Jun 2005 : 06:03:05
quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
quote:
Originally posted by Salius Kai
From what I understood of the way R.A. Salvatore worked Clan Battlehammer in his books (whish is the only clan refrences I have at my disposal), then Chosen of Bane was, to my understanding, correct in his first post.
A Clan consists of many Dwarves, not necisarily in the same family, but still living together in closley knit group. Like when the Dwarves of Mirrabar joined Clan Battlehammer, they changed clans but not families. Also, different clans can live in the same vicinity of each other (again, Mirrabar is my example). Many clans lived there and each clan was composed of different families.
Greetings, so if each clan has many different families living together, can I ask this question then?
The question is: Who will lead the clan, is it the strongest dwarf fighter or the most wisest and embodies morals and values kind of dwarf or family that will lead the clan?
A couple of possibles here. First, the descendants of the first leader of the halls or citadel is the most likely candidate. Second, whoever leads the expedition to free the halls or citadel from the vermin who took it from the dwarves. Last, whoever the dwarves are willing to follow if no other leader presents himself. Younger dwarves wanting to become leaders just gather some kin or clansmen together and carve out a kingdom. |
| Shadovar |
Posted - 14 Jun 2005 : 10:28:41
quote:
Originally posted by Salius Kai
From what I understood of the way R.A. Salvatore worked Clan Battlehammer in his books (whish is the only clan refrences I have at my disposal), then Chosen of Bane was, to my understanding, correct in his first post.
A Clan consists of many Dwarves, not necisarily in the same family, but still living together in closley knit group. Like when the Dwarves of Mirrabar joined Clan Battlehammer, they changed clans but not families. Also, different clans can live in the same vicinity of each other (again, Mirrabar is my example). Many clans lived there and each clan was composed of different families.
Greetings, so if each clan has many different families living together, can I ask this question then?
The question is: Who will lead the clan, is it the strongest dwarf fighter or the most wisest and embodies morals and values kind of dwarf or family that will lead the clan? |
| Salius Kai |
Posted - 14 Jun 2005 : 02:46:36
From what I understood of the way R.A. Salvatore worked Clan Battlehammer in his books (whish is the only clan refrences I have at my disposal), then Chosen of Bane was, to my understanding, correct in his first post.
A Clan consists of many Dwarves, not necisarily in the same family, but still living together in closley knit group. Like when the Dwarves of Mirrabar joined Clan Battlehammer, they changed clans but not families. Also, different clans can live in the same vicinity of each other (again, Mirrabar is my example). Many clans lived there and each clan was composed of different families. |
| Lord Donnachie |
Posted - 07 Jun 2005 : 18:15:34
quote:
Originally posted by webmanus
Hall of Tethyamar[/*][/list]
All this makes me also think on the term "the Houses of Tethyamar", which should mean, the ruling families of the clans of Tethyamar. For example, a meeting is called by the king of Tethyamar, were he declares that all the Houses of Tethyamar (the houses of the kingdom) must come, that is, the ruling family of each clan of Tethyamar is summoned.
This is a good example.
Ok let me ask this then? I have two PC's family names- Watchever and Deepdelve. They have a shared Hold and want their famlies to join them. We were discussing the type of goverment they would use...council with an appointed Captain(Gerneral.) Each clan's elder would have a seat (gnomes would elect their speaker) on this council to govern the Hold.
Thats all clear, but now they are talking marriage between a pc and an npc member the other clan. I have my ideas but I am curios about other ideas as to how to handle this...
PC- K. Watchever wants to marry Brianna Deepdelve, this will happen.
They are both clan elders so could the two familes merge or would just Brinna change her name and a new deepdelve elder would take over the role.
As a side note, I'm going to allow the marriage and appointment to King, but Brianna is going to demand that K Watchever becomes a Deepdelve becoming part of her family. Only then will she marry and give her vote as an elder to "elect" K. as king.
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| webmanus |
Posted - 14 May 2005 : 22:13:11
I went to bed, and no I am back ...
OK, the ruling family of the Greatanvil clan is called the Greatanvil House (compare with the Iron House). Belgin, Phaeba, and Valdyr are all members of the same clan, but not members of the same family. Now, lets say that Belgins is killed and the clan elders decide that the head of Valdyr's family should become the new chieftan, that is, Barr is selected as the clan's new chief.
What does this change result in, regarding names?
I would believe that, if Barr is the first member of his family through history that becomes chief of the clan, then he could, for example, if he travells to Dagger Falls and presents himself (or is presented) for lord Randal Morn, say:
- Well met! I am Barr 'the Elder' of the House of Barr of the clan of Greatanvil, son of Uldred, blood of Durant, from Greatanvil Hall of Tethyamar
Or maybe ...
- Well met! I am Barr 'the Elder', son of Uldred, blood of Durant, of the House of Barr of the clan of Gretanvil, from Greatanvil Hall of Tethyamar
How about Phaeba 'the First' Greatanvil, daugther of Osk, blood of Anthan, of Greatanvil Hall of Tethyamar, if she would become the new chieftan?
All this makes me also think on the term "the Houses of Tethyamar", which should mean, the ruling families of the clans of Tethyamar. For example, a meeting is called by the king of Tethyamar, were he declares that all the Houses of Tethyamar (the houses of the kingdom) must come, that is, the ruling family of each clan of Tethyamar is summoned. |
| webmanus |
Posted - 14 May 2005 : 20:48:27
Hi Wooly Rupert, and others,
So, if Belgin would travell to say Dagger Falls, while Valdyr would travell to Ashabenford, and both would be in a situation where it is proper to present themself using their clan name, then Belgin should say something like "Well met. I am Belgin of the House of Greatanvil.", while Valdyr should say "Well met. I am Valdyr Greatanvil". Thus, both present themselfs as members of the Gretanvil clan, with the differance that Belgin points out that he is not only a Greatanvil dwarf, but also member of the ruling family.
How about this ... If Belgin and Valdyr would have to present themselfs among humans, and they suspect that the humans do not really understand dwarven traditions, and Belgin (in Dagger Falls) and Valdyr (in Ashabenford) would like to point out that they are members of (important dwarven clans, and not just clanless dwarfs) dwarven clans, then they would say:
- Well met! I am Belgin of the House of Greatanvil of the Greatanvil Clan
- Well met! I am Valdyr of the Greatanvil Clan
Maybe, a variation that Belgin could use, would be the following one:
- Well met! I am Belgin of the Greatanvil House, of the Greatanvil Clan
Compare with Borlin, blood of Ghellin, of the Iron House and king Ghellin of the Iron House.
But, when it comes down to write down the full name, to make sure that the bar bill arrives at the correct door, then it should be enough to write the following ...
- Belgin 'the Tall' Greatanvil, son of Faem, blood of Anthan, of Greatanvil Hall of Tethyamar
- Valdyr 'the Dreaded' Greatanvil, son of Barr, blood of Durant, of Greatanvil Hall of Tethyamar
Comments?
Best regards,
Manuel
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 May 2005 : 19:47:26
quote:
Originally posted by webmanus
That is, what should Belgins full name be ... Belgin Greatanvil or Belgin Greatanvil House?
I can't think of a single case of someone using House like that in their last name, unless they were saying "I am Belgin, of the House of Greatanvil." Go with Belgin Greatanvil. |
| webmanus |
Posted - 14 May 2005 : 17:59:36
Hi folks!
After a bit of reading, I have written the following. Now, do you agree or would you make some changes?
quote:
The Greatanvil Clan of Tethyamar
The Greatanvil Clan of Tethyamar has c 150 members. Their hold, Greatanvil Hall is located in northern Daggerdale. Around the dwarven hold has a community of farms grew up.
The head of the clan's ruling family, the Greatanvil House, is Belgin 'the Tall' Greatanvil (AL male shield dwarf Cla#), son of Faem, blood of Anthan, of Greatanvil Hall of Tethyamar. Belgins chief advisor is Phaeba 'the First' Greatanvil (AL female shield dwarf Cla#), daugther of Osk, blood of Anthan, also of Greatanvil Hall of Tethyamar. The captain of the guard is Valdyr 'the Dreaded' Greatanvil (AL female shield dwarf Cla#), son of Barr, blood of Durant, of Greatanvil Hall of Tethyamar, again.
For example, maybe should Belgin's full name be Belgin 'the Tall' Greatanvil House, son of Faem, blood of Anthan, of Greatanvil Hall of Tethyamar. While Valdyr's full name could remain. That is, what should Belgins full name be ... Belgin Greatanvil or Belgin Greatanvil House?
Of cource, in Greatanvil Hall, they only say Belgin, Phaeba, and Valdyr, and even when in, for example, Dagger Falls, they just would use their names, and not much more.
A matter of language ... in English ... would it be Valdyr 'the Dreaded', Valdyr 'the Dread', or Valdyr 'the Dreadful'? 
Edited 2005-05-14: Added "A matter of Language ... in English ... ". |
| Patrakis |
Posted - 26 Apr 2005 : 03:58:59
Here is an interesting passage i dug up from a website after a google search. I found it interesting regarding the poster's question:
Clans are probably the extension of the basic family unit; the ‘extended family’ involving people who were descended from a common ancestor and some others who, though possibly not related by blood, had lived and worked within the group as if they were of the same family stock. When, for example, someone in writing a history might mention the Macleans having a quarrel with clan Donald, the writer would be also including a great many Lamonts who had migrated to the lands of the Macleans and joined them in peace or war, in whatever projects or struggles they found themselves to have undertaken. There are said to be three criteria for membership in a clan. The first is descent from a common ancestor (real or mythical ), the second is that of bearing the clan name, and the third is having lived and worked with the people of a given name in their clan lands for at least three generations. Well then, what of an American black whose ancestors were working on the land of a family of a clan, whose own ancestors upon emancipation chose that family’s name for themselves due to their having been well-treated by them and having developed a respect for them ? Would a descendant of such a family of former slaves have the right to claim a connection with a clan? No? According to ancient practice, the answer would have to be " Yes". And if the descendant knew that he/she actually carried the blood of that stem family, the answer is decidedly ‘yes’!
Clann is a Gaelic word which means "children". So if we say "Clan Donald" we are saying in effect "children of Donald". Mac is another Gaelic word which means "son", as in " MacCormack,. "son of Cormack" which is to say "descendant of Cormack". In the Gaelic language there is a separate designation for females : Nic…which is a short form of ‘Nigheann ‘ic’…or "Daughter of…" In ,this way we might say "Iain MacCormac" ,but Mairi NicCormac. So, if a woman in our day and age wanted to keep her name and her birth-name was MacDonald, she could style herself "Eilean Nic Donald. If she remained single and had an adopted son or a son of her own body , he would be Colin MacDonald ,not Colin NicDonald. Of course, not all names exhibit the name of an ancestor. Some allude to a title or great office. Mac Nab comes from ‘mac an Abba ,or ‘son of the Abbot’, Mac an toiseach (MacIntosh) which is ‘son of the chief or ‘leader’. Macrae is Mac Rath …son of grace, or fortune ( or NicRath…daughter of grace or fortune). Other names are taken from a clan country or region such as Murray from "Moray", or ‘Brodie’ or ‘Sutherland’. Names such as Gow(Smith), Fletcher, Bannerman, Dewar( a guardian of sacred relics) ,Stalker, etc., denote folk descended from ancestors who had had specific trades or duties. Sometimes in a village or clan area where many people shared the same clan name, they dropped the surname altogether when among themselves This gave rise to names derived from physical features or characteristics : John Short or Andrew Lang (long or tall): Alan Breck ( Alain Breac in Gaelic)…or ‘freckled Alan’ The Gaelic name Cameron comes from the Gaelic: Caim sraoin…or’ crooked nose’.
I forgot to make note of the site, sorry.
Pat |
| The Sage |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 02:26:10
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
I know if the tome is like Races of the Wild, it will be useful in an FR campaign. To what extent would depend on each DM's own FR world.
I'll second that claim. As a scribe who now has both tomes, I can say that to a limited degree, the family and social structure sections detailed in Races of Stone are relevant for particular campaign settings. However, I found the information more appropriate for the dwarven kingdoms of Thordardin and Kayolin on Krynn, rather than in the Realms.
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| Lord Donnachie |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 01:34:12
ROS has a table of adventure hooks for dwarves (and gnomes). It might be what your looking for.
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| Snotlord |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 00:07:11
Hmm, well, I agree. Thanks Wooly.
I have Dwarves Deep (and RoF), but I want more for creating adventures featuring dwarves. I'm not looking for mechanics for creating dwarf characters, the FRCS and Players Guide cover more than enough to cover my needs, but rather story hooks and background.
I'm not quite sure what I'm looking for, but I will recognize it when I see it 
Edit: Thanks Sirius! I should have known the scribes had a put up a scroll a long time ago. |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 00:02:38
quote:
Originally posted by Snotlord
How would the scribes rate Races of Stone, compared to Dwarves Deep, for FR games? I have Dwarves Deep, and would like use more dwarves in my games. Anyone?
Snotlord,
If you haven't already, check out this thread for some scribes' comments on Races of Stone. I know if the tome is like Races of the Wild, it will be useful in an FR campaign. To what extent would depend on each DM's own FR world. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 Apr 2005 : 23:09:14
quote:
Originally posted by Snotlord
How would the scribes rate Races of Stone, compared to Dwarves Deep, for FR games? I have Dwarves Deep, and would like use more dwarves in my games. Anyone?
I've not bothered with Races of Stone... But I would certainly favor any setting-specific book like Dwarves Deep (which I also have) over a generic one. One may have a lot of stuff about dwarves, but the other one is about dwarves in the Realms. That's an important disctinction to me. |
| Snotlord |
Posted - 24 Apr 2005 : 22:33:33
How would the scribes rate Races of Stone, compared to Dwarves Deep, for FR games? I have Dwarves Deep, and would like use more dwarves in my games. Anyone? |
| webmanus |
Posted - 24 Apr 2005 : 20:59:40
Hi folks!
I was wondering which is the name of the ruling clan of past times Tethaymar? And, I think that it must be Iron, that is, the Iron Clan ... although, the clan would be called Iron House ... as it is the ruling clan; note, it is the name of a clan and not a family. Do you agree?
Now, according to Lost Empires of Tethaymar, the Iron Clan (Iron House) was not the only one in Tethaymar.
From Lost Empires of Faerűn (page 134):
quote:
Upon hearing of these rich deposits, numerous clans decided to migrate north and settle the caverns of Tethyamar.
So, how would you interprete the following statement, taken from Lost Empires of Faerun (page 134):
quote:
Roryn, blood of Thordbard, of the Iron House of Oghrann founded the kingdom of Tethyamar in the Years of Depths Unknown.
And, the following comes from Dwarves Deep (page 15):
quote:
Oghrann was founded by the mighty warrior Thordbard Firebeard, who was its first and greatest king.
My interpretation is pretty simple. There has been a dwarven clan in ruling position for very long time, and, that clan has been called the Iron House. So, if I have to name two dwarven clans represented in Daggerdale, it would be the Brightblade Clan, and, possible the Iron House; if the Iron House has a member of its clan in Daggerdale.
Best regards,
Manuel |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 13 Apr 2005 : 14:35:30
I think that this sentence from FR11 Dwarves Deep (p.13) sheds some light on the original query:
"The term 'house' refers to the ruling family in a clan (emphasis mine), or the ruling clan of a land."
If we look at the inside front cover of FR11 on dwarven Names, this makes it quite clear that there are two types of dwarves: clan and clanless. The former have a first name, a clan name and sometimes a descriptor. The latter have a first name and any second name they want.
However, in the light of the sentence noted above, I'd say that the Realms contain smaller 'family' clans - where everyone is a Gallowglar - and larger 'kingdom' clans - where family names play a role also (i.e Dorn Greyhammer of Clan Worldthrone).
-- George Krashos
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Apr 2005 : 11:25:27
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Or R A Salvatore might have simply stuffed up like he did with Lloth/Lolth and Tempos/Tempus.
-- George Krashos
Truly, I think that that's more likely. It's also what I was implying with my reference to RAS making a divine mistake. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 13 Apr 2005 : 07:42:51
Or R A Salvatore might have simply stuffed up like he did with Lloth/Lolth and Tempos/Tempus.
-- George Krashos
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| The Sage |
Posted - 13 Apr 2005 : 06:00:51
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
He was, the last time I checked... Could RAS have made a divine mistake? 
Well I can see some dwarves who might worship Tempus, but a large community? That would seem a bit odd when their own race has a similar deity.
Well... A possible explanation is that the dwarven refugees who first settled in Icewind Dale didn't have any clerics among them, so they adopted the deity worshipped by their neighbors...
That's entirely possible.
When the dwarven refugees first settled the region, there would have undoubtedly been the need for clerical healing from time to time, especially during the early years of settlement.
The dwarves may have grudgingly asked for the assistance of their neighbours, requesting aid from clerics and perhaps, allowing a few of their number to begin the process of initiation into the clergy.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Apr 2005 : 05:20:12
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
He was, the last time I checked... Could RAS have made a divine mistake?
Well I can see some dwarves who might worship Tempus, but a large community? That would seem a bit odd when their own race has a similar deity.
Well... A possible explanation is that the dwarven refugees who first settled in Icewind Dale didn't have any clerics among them, so they adopted the deity worshipped by their neighbors... |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 13 Apr 2005 : 04:16:22
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
He was, the last time I checked... Could RAS have made a divine mistake?
Well I can see some dwarves who might worship Tempus, but a large community? That would seem a bit odd when their own race has a similar deity. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Apr 2005 : 03:09:17
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by LordAnki
In the Dark Elf Trilogy: sojourn, Drizzt says that the dwarves of Mithril Hall and up in Icewind Dale they shout Tempus (the god of battle for the dwarves).
I thought Clangeddin Silverbeard was the Father of Battle and the Dwarven War God.
He was, the last time I checked... Could RAS have made a divine mistake? |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 13 Apr 2005 : 01:46:12
quote:
Originally posted by LordAnki
In the Dark Elf Trilogy: sojourn, Drizzt says that the dwarves of Mithril Hall and up in Icewind Dale they shout Tempus (the god of battle for the dwarves).
I thought Clangeddin Silverbeard was the Father of Battle and the Dwarven War God. |
| LordAnki |
Posted - 12 Apr 2005 : 21:57:52
quote:
Originally posted by hammer of Moradin
My interpretation, supported by various comments in sourcebooks, is that the clan is the family. Now a clan can encompass relatives that are so removed that they share just a tiny bit of blood relations, but they are all of Clan (fill-in-the-blank). Bruenor is the only dwarf I've seen of Clan Battlehammer, while everyone else living in Mithril Hall is "of Mithril Hall". When going into battle the dwarves will invoke the clan name of their king, "for Clan Battlehammer!", yet this does not make them of the clan.
In the Dark Elf Trilogy: sojourn, Drizzt says that the dwarves of Mithril Hall and up in Icewind Dale they shout Tempus (the god of battle for the dwarves). |
| hammer of Moradin |
Posted - 11 Apr 2005 : 19:45:11
My interpretation, supported by various comments in sourcebooks, is that the clan is the family. Now a clan can encompass relatives that are so removed that they share just a tiny bit of blood relations, but they are all of Clan (fill-in-the-blank). Bruenor is the only dwarf I've seen of Clan Battlehammer, while everyone else living in Mithril Hall is "of Mithril Hall". When going into battle the dwarves will invoke the clan name of their king, "for Clan Battlehammer!", yet this does not make them of the clan.
Dwarves don't need to have share a blood relationship in order to bond together. We see this repeatedly in the North especially. Citidel's Felbarr and Adbar have multiple clans within their walls, the majority of which bear no blood with their king. With the fall of Delzoun and the other ancestral homes of the dwarves many, many clans spread across Toril in search of new mines and homes. We see a continued rejoining of different dwarfs into new and old areas where they usually follow kings from distinguished clans with ancestors who were kings.
Take the original question and turn it around. A clan is the official family that a dwarf descends from, however a dwarf's family is someone from any clan whom they have forged an alliance or bear fealty to.
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| Lord Donnachie |
Posted - 07 Apr 2005 : 18:53:41
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Bane
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Donnachie
That was the smae conclusion I reached but wanted to feedback from others, thanks!
BTW-I have Dwarvesdeep (best dwarf puplication made!) and it didn't really help with my question.
thanks again!
I have Dwarves Deep, Complete Book of Dwarves, Races of Stone, Races of Faerun, and the Quintessential Dwarf (Mongoose publishing) and I still don't know the answer. I bet there's some insight somewhere in these books, I just don't really remember and my system seems to work fine.
I have all those plus Dwarves of Rockhome, Dwarven kingdoms of Krynn, and the adventures Under Illfan, Thurnderdelve, Axe of the
Dwarvish King (check it out dwarf-lovers, it's huge, but 2e so modification if needed)
I was hoping someone with insight into RL clan societies like the Scottish could add something new. Although the system you mentioned (same as mine) seems to be correct.
cheers,
D |
| Chosen of Bane |
Posted - 07 Apr 2005 : 18:26:02
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Donnachie
That was the smae conclusion I reached but wanted to feedback from others, thanks!
BTW-I have Dwarvesdeep (best dwarf puplication made!) and it didn't really help with my question.
thanks again!
I have Dwarves Deep, Complete Book of Dwarves, Races of Stone, Races of Faerun, and the Quintessential Dwarf (Mongoose publishing) and I still don't know the answer. I bet there's some insight somewhere in these books, I just don't really remember and my system seems to work fine. |
| Lord Donnachie |
Posted - 07 Apr 2005 : 18:16:46
That was the smae conclusion I reached but wanted to feedback from others, thanks!
BTW-I have Dwarvesdeep (best dwarf puplication made!) and it didn't really help with my question.
thanks again! |
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