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What we know of Abeir ... to collect info

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[quote][i]Originally posted by sleyvas[/i]
[br]I'm pulling this thread from the thread where we're tracking the mountainload of Ed twitter responses, because even though  I knew I wrote it, I had problems finding  it last night.  I watched the complete video and tried to make some basic notes about continents and such.  I then made an EXTREMELY rough map... something like just trying to put an "order" east  to west (and maybe some  north/south) of the places he mentions.  Maybe one of the takeaways this thread might be able to help  would be to aid getting some basic entries in the FR wiki about Abeir's locations.  I will add as well.... Ed's descriptions describes a world that is more humanocentric than I had been thinking it might be (less reptilian/amphibian cultures mentioned than I would have put).... and it also definitely reduces the concept of how  many genasi  are there, etc...

[quote]Originally posted by questing gm

On most comprehensive look at Abeir

https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1730363666573165028

Dec 1, 2023

@TheEdVerse

After years of requests, I've finally done it!

Please enjoy this video, my most comprehensive look at Abeir, as told by a halfling adventurer to the "Old Mage," Elminster of Shadowdale!

#realmslore #dnd #forgottenrealms #baldursgate3

LINK: https://youtu.be/XBeeDMJFnzo

<https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1730363666573165028/photo/1>
[/quote]

My hat off to the sage. Though it may (or may not) conflict with some of what I had been doing with the region, I have to give the man props for not glossing here. He did try and throw a decent amount of regional names, individual names, etc... in this. By chance has anyone got a transcript of this to read rather than listen to? I'd be intrigued to see if anyone has tried to lay this out in some form of map.

Some takeaway notes that I quickly noted

Dark elves are in this world in the "Nardark" and are called the Narren Drow ... their term for underdark. Yet elves supposedly are NOT. To note as well, the worlds separated supposedly prior to the arrival of Fey in Faerun. Some of these dark elves are also said to "worship the Queen of Chaos"... which hints to god worship on Abeir despite us being told otherwise (or perhaps it might be better said "demon lord worship").

Secondarily... one thing we had wondered is if this world might not be anything like Toril ... in that it might be a world primarily inhabited by reptilian/draconic/amphibian humanoids. But most of what he seems to be describing would fit with most other worlds (i.e. humans, dwarves, halflings, limited numbers of genasi, etc...). He does say its a world of no elves, but at the same time, he mentions a group of drow in the world... so....

Some notes on "regions" that I'm making

information is thirdhand from a halfling Dhalk Marrowsar, and this information seems to be post spellplague... but possibly pre second sundering (i.e. I don't know if Dhalk came to Toril as a part of second sundering)

Four continents since Laerokand came to Toril. The boiling sea replaced Laerokand, but isn't hot.. its turbulent with whirlpools and strong currents.

[b]Marranth[/b]
Largest continent. Mountainous masses and huge sea cliffs. Roughly diamond shaped "twisted into a curve from due south around to northeast". Seems to have 13 "lines" of mountains (or 12 valleys) that seem to cross the continent like a somewhat parallel set of stripes. Dragons hunt herd beasts in the valleys and endlessly compete, plot, etc....

[b]Irronther[/b]
East of Marranth "across the arserpent sea"

long narrow north-south continent of rolling lands with fewer mountains, the main mountains being on the coast facing Marrath. Its southern two thirds is jungle and filled "with what we deem monsters", including tentacled things and snakes and "more than snakes" and beholders. Some rare genasi and some dragonborn who "live close to the land" are here as well. The northern third of Irronther, north of Vast Lake Yaeranche which is roughly kidney / bean shaped north-south, is temperate and largely forests. Forests slowing getting cleared by the halflings and humans living there ruled by various petty "wizards and armored bullies". NOTE: WIZARDS .... doesn't have the weave, but has wizards... of course.. perhaps Torilian imports? Perhaps doing magic in a different way?

Dwarves are the strongest force in this northern territory. Staundoun is the main dwarven realm ruled by it Iron Council. Ahezurt in the extreme northeast is a splinter realm and ruled by two outcast clans (Hezmur and Nornhammer). Hezmur was kicked out because it believed in a meritocracy versus "elders" ruling, and Nornhammer because they pushed for a turn to agriculture versus forging. Boldaunth is a second splinter realm to the southeast are splinter realms which broke away because they wanted to explore the world and trade versus forging and hoarding.

Below the dwarves in the "Nardark" are the "Wild Deeps" in which reside monsters and drow (called the Narren drow). Sidenote: given that they are called "Narren Drow" ... I would really like to connect these dark elves to Narathmault/Dun Tharos.... which existed prior to the dark elven forced descent to note.

Lake Yaeranche has human dominated villages along its coast, but still apparently a diverse population that is open to new ideas/new innovations (including spell experimentation). This region is often known as the Cauldron for its brewing of new ideas.

Kannath - off east coast of Irronther, archipelago range of large and small islands, filled with various races... not detailed what the races are. The seas surrounding it are the Dun Seas and are muddy in color.

East of Kannath is where Laerakond used to be and the "Cold Straits"... but now its the "boiling sea"... a dangerous area of whirlpools and currents. Few sail this region, and north of it is the "Ice Run"... a series of rocky islets that are often plagued by dangerous whales and squids that attack ships

[b]Shyr[/b]
second largest land mass... east of where Laerakond had been... which was the boiling sea during the spellplague... so in theory where Faerun is kind of.

Karshimis ruled SOME of this continent (Karshaunt now... eastern most portion of Shyr). He ruled from "Soaring Mount Vore", which in theory would be where his Citadel of Burning Ice was located. Human and dragonborn inhabited. Used to be called the "Lands of the Rising Dragons" because young dragons would come here seeking to make a name for themselves. After spellplague, much of it became "The Mistlands" and were areas of hot springs, volcanos, and flowing lava.

Two thirds of the continent (the central heart of it) is "The Dragon Realms" where dragons rule over humans, dwarves, halflings, and a few dragonborn. Dragons have internally warred to great scale apparently in the past with the 1st, 2nd, and third Wyrmstrife.

Western of the dragon realms are two regions

the "Sarcoast Lands"... a swampy place where halflings live in the southern portion and "tentacled things of monstrous size" rule tiny realms over the rest of this region. The halfling section is called Narragult . The sarcoast lands are twice as wide as its northerly neibhbor of Carngor, but both are equally "long" in the north/south perspective.

Carngor is also on the other side of the dragon realms and is human ruled lands in hilly territory, with a lord loosely ruling from Harhult the Hollow Mountain. Lots of baronies. It would seem to be to the north of the Sarcoast lands, but west of the dragon realms... since the sarcoast is mentioned as bordering the Tarsark mountains... but at the same time an earlier reference to Narragult mention it as east of that land... so perhaps its "northeast" of the sarcoast lands and perhaps the sarcoast area is more trapezoid in shape... fatter at the bottom

Between the Sarcoast and Dragon realms is a "knife edged" mountain range called the Tarsark Mountains, named after a primordial who supposedly was torn apart there... and the reason that this region is inhabited by numerous "ghostlike or varied undead". Above one of the peaks is the city of Xxiphu (from the abolithic sovereignty... whom they refer to as "The Qua"). More monstrous creatures have appeared in teh Tarsark mountains of recent. Safe passes thru these mountains are Glander Pass, the Wideway, and High Vaerult. These passes link the westernmost dragon realms with the long slender hill realm of Carngor.

The southwest portion of the continent of Shyr must be Thultyl, a seacoast plateau in a higher altitude than the sarcoast lands to the east... filled with dragonborn who feud nigh endlessly, paying at least lip service to an overking named Vraelyn. The region is divided into regions ruled by local lords at ports or "High Holds" (regions farther up and off of the seacoast). They drop their feuds to hunt any dragon dumb enough to enter their territory from the Dragon Realms. Its said that Thultyl... like the Fens and Carngor .. stretch a long way north and south.

Thultyl supposedly shelters the fens/Sarcoast Lands from the "ever more frequent storms blowing off the boiling sea".

[b]Lhoraun[/b]

"Far to the East" ...Across the Oshlar Sea, beyond Karshaunt... or not so far west of Marranth, across the Andol Sea. Some say it stretches into the Frozen seas of the North Pole. They provide little information about this land, but it would seem to possibly have people from Toril. Also, not visited by the halfling, so all he has are unconfirmed rumors.

So, that's the words from this halfling... its possible that there were only 4 continents... but he may not have known everything that "swapped" during the spellplague. Lhoraun would seem to be the perfect place to drop in Anchorome, Maztica, Lopango, Katashaka. For all we know, Lhoraun is actually the largest "continent", because everything is skewed by what this halfling "knows" to be true. He may also be working from old data as well. If we dropped those continents in there, then the nearest other continent is Marranth.. which seems to primarily be mountains and valley hunting grounds for youngish dragons that internally feud. These dragons, if not as organized to have realms, might have been easier to turn away than say the ones in Shyr.

Hmmm, also... not sure if Ed produced anything like a map... but I threw together this to get a ROUGH... I mean ROUGH ... MAY BE WAY OFF... idea of the layout based on his conversation.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/11QLKpd1DdUI2ctAwrNNJMbCfdWsAaEHz/view?usp=sharing
[/quote]

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T O P I C R E V I E W
sleyvas	Posted - 20 Dec 2023 : 14:35:51 I'm pulling this thread from the thread where we're tracking the mountainload of Ed twitter responses, because even though I knew I wrote it, I had problems finding it last night. I watched the complete video and tried to make some basic notes about continents and such. I then made an EXTREMELY rough map... something like just trying to put an "order" east to west (and maybe some north/south) of the places he mentions. Maybe one of the takeaways this thread might be able to help would be to aid getting some basic entries in the FR wiki about Abeir's locations. I will add as well.... Ed's descriptions describes a world that is more humanocentric than I had been thinking it might be (less reptilian/amphibian cultures mentioned than I would have put).... and it also definitely reduces the concept of how many genasi are there, etc... quote: Originally posted by questing gm On most comprehensive look at Abeir https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1730363666573165028 Dec 1, 2023 @TheEdVerse After years of requests, I've finally done it! Please enjoy this video, my most comprehensive look at Abeir, as told by a halfling adventurer to the "Old Mage," Elminster of Shadowdale! #realmslore #dnd #forgottenrealms #baldursgate3 LINK: https://youtu.be/XBeeDMJFnzo <https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1730363666573165028/photo/1> My hat off to the sage. Though it may (or may not) conflict with some of what I had been doing with the region, I have to give the man props for not glossing here. He did try and throw a decent amount of regional names, individual names, etc... in this. By chance has anyone got a transcript of this to read rather than listen to? I'd be intrigued to see if anyone has tried to lay this out in some form of map. Some takeaway notes that I quickly noted Dark elves are in this world in the "Nardark" and are called the Narren Drow ... their term for underdark. Yet elves supposedly are NOT. To note as well, the worlds separated supposedly prior to the arrival of Fey in Faerun. Some of these dark elves are also said to "worship the Queen of Chaos"... which hints to god worship on Abeir despite us being told otherwise (or perhaps it might be better said "demon lord worship"). Secondarily... one thing we had wondered is if this world might not be anything like Toril ... in that it might be a world primarily inhabited by reptilian/draconic/amphibian humanoids. But most of what he seems to be describing would fit with most other worlds (i.e. humans, dwarves, halflings, limited numbers of genasi, etc...). He does say its a world of no elves, but at the same time, he mentions a group of drow in the world... so.... Some notes on "regions" that I'm making information is thirdhand from a halfling Dhalk Marrowsar, and this information seems to be post spellplague... but possibly pre second sundering (i.e. I don't know if Dhalk came to Toril as a part of second sundering) Four continents since Laerokand came to Toril. The boiling sea replaced Laerokand, but isn't hot.. its turbulent with whirlpools and strong currents. Marranth Largest continent. Mountainous masses and huge sea cliffs. Roughly diamond shaped "twisted into a curve from due south around to northeast". Seems to have 13 "lines" of mountains (or 12 valleys) that seem to cross the continent like a somewhat parallel set of stripes. Dragons hunt herd beasts in the valleys and endlessly compete, plot, etc.... Irronther East of Marranth "across the arserpent sea" long narrow north-south continent of rolling lands with fewer mountains, the main mountains being on the coast facing Marrath. Its southern two thirds is jungle and filled "with what we deem monsters", including tentacled things and snakes and "more than snakes" and beholders. Some rare genasi and some dragonborn who "live close to the land" are here as well. The northern third of Irronther, north of Vast Lake Yaeranche which is roughly kidney / bean shaped north-south, is temperate and largely forests. Forests slowing getting cleared by the halflings and humans living there ruled by various petty "wizards and armored bullies". NOTE: WIZARDS .... doesn't have the weave, but has wizards... of course.. perhaps Torilian imports? Perhaps doing magic in a different way? Dwarves are the strongest force in this northern territory. Staundoun is the main dwarven realm ruled by it Iron Council. Ahezurt in the extreme northeast is a splinter realm and ruled by two outcast clans (Hezmur and Nornhammer). Hezmur was kicked out because it believed in a meritocracy versus "elders" ruling, and Nornhammer because they pushed for a turn to agriculture versus forging. Boldaunth is a second splinter realm to the southeast are splinter realms which broke away because they wanted to explore the world and trade versus forging and hoarding. Below the dwarves in the "Nardark" are the "Wild Deeps" in which reside monsters and drow (called the Narren drow). Sidenote: given that they are called "Narren Drow" ... I would really like to connect these dark elves to Narathmault/Dun Tharos.... which existed prior to the dark elven forced descent to note. Lake Yaeranche has human dominated villages along its coast, but still apparently a diverse population that is open to new ideas/new innovations (including spell experimentation). This region is often known as the Cauldron for its brewing of new ideas. Kannath - off east coast of Irronther, archipelago range of large and small islands, filled with various races... not detailed what the races are. The seas surrounding it are the Dun Seas and are muddy in color. East of Kannath is where Laerakond used to be and the "Cold Straits"... but now its the "boiling sea"... a dangerous area of whirlpools and currents. Few sail this region, and north of it is the "Ice Run"... a series of rocky islets that are often plagued by dangerous whales and squids that attack ships Shyr second largest land mass... east of where Laerakond had been... which was the boiling sea during the spellplague... so in theory where Faerun is kind of. Karshimis ruled SOME of this continent (Karshaunt now... eastern most portion of Shyr). He ruled from "Soaring Mount Vore", which in theory would be where his Citadel of Burning Ice was located. Human and dragonborn inhabited. Used to be called the "Lands of the Rising Dragons" because young dragons would come here seeking to make a name for themselves. After spellplague, much of it became "The Mistlands" and were areas of hot springs, volcanos, and flowing lava. Two thirds of the continent (the central heart of it) is "The Dragon Realms" where dragons rule over humans, dwarves, halflings, and a few dragonborn. Dragons have internally warred to great scale apparently in the past with the 1st, 2nd, and third Wyrmstrife. Western of the dragon realms are two regions the "Sarcoast Lands"... a swampy place where halflings live in the southern portion and "tentacled things of monstrous size" rule tiny realms over the rest of this region. The halfling section is called Narragult . The sarcoast lands are twice as wide as its northerly neibhbor of Carngor, but both are equally "long" in the north/south perspective. Carngor is also on the other side of the dragon realms and is human ruled lands in hilly territory, with a lord loosely ruling from Harhult the Hollow Mountain. Lots of baronies. It would seem to be to the north of the Sarcoast lands, but west of the dragon realms... since the sarcoast is mentioned as bordering the Tarsark mountains... but at the same time an earlier reference to Narragult mention it as east of that land... so perhaps its "northeast" of the sarcoast lands and perhaps the sarcoast area is more trapezoid in shape... fatter at the bottom Between the Sarcoast and Dragon realms is a "knife edged" mountain range called the Tarsark Mountains, named after a primordial who supposedly was torn apart there... and the reason that this region is inhabited by numerous "ghostlike or varied undead". Above one of the peaks is the city of Xxiphu (from the abolithic sovereignty... whom they refer to as "The Qua"). More monstrous creatures have appeared in teh Tarsark mountains of recent. Safe passes thru these mountains are Glander Pass, the Wideway, and High Vaerult. These passes link the westernmost dragon realms with the long slender hill realm of Carngor. The southwest portion of the continent of Shyr must be Thultyl, a seacoast plateau in a higher altitude than the sarcoast lands to the east... filled with dragonborn who feud nigh endlessly, paying at least lip service to an overking named Vraelyn. The region is divided into regions ruled by local lords at ports or "High Holds" (regions farther up and off of the seacoast). They drop their feuds to hunt any dragon dumb enough to enter their territory from the Dragon Realms. Its said that Thultyl... like the Fens and Carngor .. stretch a long way north and south. Thultyl supposedly shelters the fens/Sarcoast Lands from the "ever more frequent storms blowing off the boiling sea". Lhoraun "Far to the East" ...Across the Oshlar Sea, beyond Karshaunt... or not so far west of Marranth, across the Andol Sea. Some say it stretches into the Frozen seas of the North Pole. They provide little information about this land, but it would seem to possibly have people from Toril. Also, not visited by the halfling, so all he has are unconfirmed rumors. So, that's the words from this halfling... its possible that there were only 4 continents... but he may not have known everything that "swapped" during the spellplague. Lhoraun would seem to be the perfect place to drop in Anchorome, Maztica, Lopango, Katashaka. For all we know, Lhoraun is actually the largest "continent", because everything is skewed by what this halfling "knows" to be true. He may also be working from old data as well. If we dropped those continents in there, then the nearest other continent is Marranth.. which seems to primarily be mountains and valley hunting grounds for youngish dragons that internally feud. These dragons, if not as organized to have realms, might have been easier to turn away than say the ones in Shyr. Hmmm, also... not sure if Ed produced anything like a map... but I threw together this to get a ROUGH... I mean ROUGH ... MAY BE WAY OFF... idea of the layout based on his conversation. https://drive.google.com/file/d/11QLKpd1DdUI2ctAwrNNJMbCfdWsAaEHz/view?usp=sharing
30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First)
NyluenathaStareyes	Posted - 18 May 2024 : 09:35:14 quote: Originally posted by Zeromaru X I get bored quickly, so I like to talk there as well. But as you'll notice sooner or later, I prefer a more modern take in fantasy, that may be at odds with people who likes the traditional D&D lore sometimes, lol Noted! I love the lore, but I also love advancing the vibrancy of the realms. Despite my initial disgruntlement with the Spellplague, I kinda liked it once I got into the novels about all the freaky new places that were in the Realms. Get weird, I'm into it! quote: Originally posted by Zeromaru X If you have access to the Psionic Power sourcebook, it has a story about how bad can be to have people with psionic powers for the defense of a kingdom. Page 6 has the tale of a dragonborn city that fell to an orc attack because the dragonborn "ardents" (empaths) got depressed after a princess died and their sadness "infected" the other dragonborn leaders and soldiers, making them fail against a force they would have defeated in normal circumstances. Perhaps something similar happened to Jhaamdaath... The most emo of the emo boys. Take down the whole kingdom with your sadness. I just read it haha...dang. Those sadbois failing Arkhosia, no bueno. Turn that frown upside down or else you doom the kingdom! No big. quote: Originally posted by Zeromaru X You got me curious here. EDIT: I read about Dinnilith. While it's true that the place vanished during the catastrophe, I doubt it survived it. Lost Empires of Faer�n says the place is full of an undead thing that reminds me of the mist of Shadar Logoth (from the Wheel of Time), and the place may not even be physical, but a psychic impression or something. Ah, well that tiny little thread gets snipped. Not to worry, perhaps the Eminence of Araunt somehow made contact...I imagine there are a fair number of portals in that area.
NyluenathaStareyes	Posted - 18 May 2024 : 09:18:31 quote: Originally posted by sleyvas As to more info on Narathmault.... There is KIND of lore that comes AFTER Narathmault fell. Because it BECAME Dun-Tharos, the various lore about Narfell and the histories about demon lords related to Narfell, Eltab, etc... can all be somewhat linked back to the region. Furthermore, if we say "demoncysts" can be linked to it as well, the the lore on Eltab MIGHT prove useful. Duly noted. Will spiff up my Dun-Tharos knowledge. quote: Oh, also, given that Lhoraun is mentioned with "wizards in towers and flying ships".... I feel its pretty safe to say that Ed is hinting that Halruaa ended up on Lhoraun. Hate to burst that bubble but Ed also put out an article called Halruaa Today that specifically states the Halruaa ended up in a sheltered alpine region of Shyr. Copied below - "And they managed it: the Halruaan elders worked the mightiest magic of their lives, plucking their realm out of Toril and into Abeir�specifically, the wild alpine uplands of one of the largest continents of Abeir, Shyr�planeshifting a forceweb-cradled majority of the non-mountainous lands of the Land of Magic." So this places Halruaa firmly in Shyr. Lhoraun...maybe Nimbral? I don't recall that we had any canon information on where they went during the Spellplague. Could also be another realm of Netherese-descent.
Zeromaru X	Posted - 18 May 2024 : 04:05:11 quote: Originally posted by NyluenathaStareyes Zeromaru X, thank you for chiming in. Glad to see you active on the Discord for Ed too! I get bored quickly, so I like to talk there as well. But as you'll notice sooner or later, I prefer a more modern take in fantasy, that may be at odds with people who likes the traditional D&D lore sometimes, lol quote: Methinks that the amaunors are about in Abeir...Also a whole ass KINGDOM of psionicists (Jhaamdaath) was wiped out and not a single one was a precog? Smells fishy...or sea elfy... If you have access to the Psionic Power sourcebook, it has a story about how bad can be to have people with psionic powers for the defense of a kingdom. Page 6 has the tale of a dragonborn city that fell to an orc attack because the dragonborn "ardents" (empaths) got depressed after a princess died and their sadness "infected" the other dragonborn leaders and soldiers, making them fail against a force they would have defeated in normal circumstances. Perhaps something similar happened to Jhaamdaath... quote: I also posit that the Jhaamdathan kingdom could have been removed to Abeir. It is said that the First City, Dinnilith, phased in and out of existence. I'll have to check back in on Lost Empires of Faerun for the exact passage. If anyone else has it, please share along. You got me curious here. quote: Originally posted by sleyvas Because Ao knew this convergence of worlds would happen. He required gods to go to Abeir to protect mortals. You destroyed my immersion here, sleyvas. The Second Sundering that Ao started killed A LOT of mortals between all the wars, natural catastrophes and magical chaos Ao unleashed on the world, just for him to "fix" things. I don't believe he care for mortals at all. I'm also not much of a fan of the idea of creating a Weave on Abeir. Leave that world away from Mystra's tyrannical monopoly of magic, quote: So that the people that went to Abeir aren't just prey for the dragon overlords, armies of primordial lords, abolethic sovereignty, etc.. Why do you have to spoil all the fun? Dragons deserve to have a good time, too quote: Consequently, what if Cyric were in fact trapped in there after the spellplague as well? This idea is even less appealing to me than having a Weave on Abeir, lol I prefer Cyric as a poser who was stripped of power and is not even demigod-level now. Not to spoil the fun, but if this Erkalla place is part of the Nine Hells, then the idea may not work, as per The Devil You Know, Abeir is completely cut off of the Nine Hells, and the place has no influence in Abeir. That's why Fiendish Warlocks (ie.Farideh) and even proper devils (Lorcan) were completely powerless in Abeir, and why the Staff of Azuth was hidden there, so Asmodeus could not find it. quote: Dumuzi eh? Interesting choice Erin made then with the name of Dumuzi Kepeshmolik as the emissary of Enlil in Tymanther. Curiously enough, dragonborn names are from many Middle East cultures. Even before Erin Evans took the dragonborn under her wing, there are names like Medrash and Balasar (Jew), Tarhun (an Hittite god), Abraxus (obviously, the gnostic being), and the like. EDIT: I read about Dinnilith. While it's true that the place vanished during the catastrophe, I doubt it survived it. Lost Empires of Faer�n says the place is full of an undead thing that reminds me of the mist of Shadar Logoth (from the Wheel of Time), and the place may not even be physical, but a psychic impression or something.
sleyvas	Posted - 18 May 2024 : 02:18:10 As to more info on Narathmault.... There is KIND of lore that comes AFTER Narathmault fell. Because it BECAME Dun-Tharos, the various lore about Narfell and the histories about demon lords related to Narfell, Eltab, etc... can all be somewhat linked back to the region. Furthermore, if we say "demoncysts" can be linked to it as well, the the lore on Eltab MIGHT prove useful. Oh, also, given that Lhoraun is mentioned with "wizards in towers and flying ships".... I feel its pretty safe to say that Ed is hinting that Halruaa ended up on Lhoraun.
NyluenathaStareyes	Posted - 18 May 2024 : 01:57:59 quote: Originally posted by sleyvas quote: Originally posted by NyluenathaStareyes Ok and also these are two things I also forgot - Drow - worshippers of the Queen of Chaos in Abeir (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Queen_of_Chaos) rather than the Queen of Spiders. How'd they get there if there aren't any elves? We've got the Tearfall happening around -31,000 DR , then the high magic of the elves tearing the world asunder in -17.600 DR, but the descent of the drow isn't until the high magic ritual around -10,000 DR or so right? So, they either went over at some point after that and somehow the Queen of Chaos either used the same move as Wendonai to corrupt a bunch of Ilithyyri so she had her own little pet drow in the deeps of Abeir... Shalarin + Ocean Portals - I coulda sworn I saw something somewhere about there being a connection between the shalarin + portals to Abeir (probably this thread - http://candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22079). Since shalarin living in the Sea of Corynactis were buddies with Dagon, ANOTHER demon lord, it stands to reason that they might be active in Abeir and Toril both, knowing that the lords of the Abyss have access to Abeir in ways that deities do not. On the drow and the "Queen of Chaos", it should be noted that SEVERAL beings can claim that title. One of those is Lolth. However, Tiamat is also referred to as the Queen of Chaos specifically in Unther per Powers and Pantheons pg 104. There's also other "Queens of Chaos" including an abyssal lord. Lolth has the title the Weaver of Chaos, but not seeing her called the Queen of Chaos, at least in Demihuman Deities. Tiamat is an interesting choice, but unlikely to patronize drow coming from Toril to Abeir...the only other Queen of Chaos is the obyrith queen of the 14th layer of the Abyss - the Steaming Fen. quote: Personally, I'd link the Narren drow with the illythiiri of Narathmault (future Dun-Tharos, capital of Narfell). To note, the "demoncysts" that run throughout the Unapproachable East may have "crossed over" into Abeir... merging portions of "the Hidden Layer" of the Abyss not only with Toril, but also with Abeir. To note, this could allow for links as well to Undrek'Thoz "the Segmented City" .... if perhaps periodically the portals "fritzed" and dump dark elves in Abeir. I've always pictured that those dark elves likely came from Narathmault originally. This tracks in how/why they would be called the Narren drow and potentially why it's called the Nardark if it's stuffed full of demonic evils! I'm into it. Anywhere that you can find a bit of Narathmault lore aside from the Grand History of the Realms? The portal glitching would incorporate well with what we know about some of the inter-planar travel between Abeir + Toril outside of the Spellplague. Considering the Elemental Chaos of 4E and the alteration of the cosmology of the Realms brought together bits from Abeir + Toril before separating again, it makes sense that other planes that are adjacent to both, like the Abyss, would see a similar admixture.
NyluenathaStareyes	Posted - 18 May 2024 : 01:25:27 quote: Originally posted by sleyvas Agreed, Ed definitely is NOT against the concept of there being "gods" in Abeir. I would also stress that maybe CLERICS did not exist in Abeir, and noting that the spells of clerics in Toril does appear to be "aided" by use of the weave or its equivalent elsewhere. This is why one of the things I proposed is that for Abeir, we actually adopt that some optional DM's Guild rules that were recommended by WotC themselves be adapted for divine casters. What rules? https://www.dmsguild.com/product/192760/Priestess-Ancient-World-Divine-Class?term=priestess. These rules basically make priests that HAVE to sacrifice in some way to get their spells. They have to receive/prepare their spells before a holy idol of their god. At lower levels this holy idol can be as small as a holy symbol, but as the spell level goes up, you may need an idol the size of a wagon or a small house. They also get some abilities that they can modify their idols with (one really nice one that you only get at higher levels is enabling your idol to work like a construct). So, this becomes a very very limiting factor for priests going adventuring, since they'd have to pretty much leave each day to renew spells once they are getting decent spells. Plus, the sacrifices... they're steep (I personally wouldn't make them so harsh), so renewing your spells isn't just "hey god, I'm here, give me spells". There would be no "joe blow needs a cure light wounds because a dog bit him". But, even with these very strict/harsh rules, I could definitely see people becoming priests. Interesting! I definitely will have to check this document out. I would agree that clerics + organized religion are unlikely to be taking place on the majority of the places we know of in Abeir...at least openly organized religion. quote: Part of the storyline I'd been writing up had the gods essentially working through mortals which would agree to share their bodies... like the avatars which were in existence during the ToT (which are definitely weaker than standard avatars, but still powerful). However, the general idea of the 3.5e binder, wherein a person hosts a "vestige" or "spirit" of a very powerful being trapped in "the place where vestiges exist".... it very much might fit how gods started to return to the world. To that end, under 5e rules, I've made an adaptation of the binder as a variant of a warlock. It might also be that some individuals were granted the power to "bind" a specific vestige of a god, and over the last hundred years these beings went from being "vestiges with little control of their host granting minor power" to "lesser avatars able to share serious control of a mortal body and grant more power" to "creating manifestations of their divine self similar to the gods of Mulhorand and Unther prior to the ToT" to "full fledged avatars no longer prime bound, but still in a body" and finally "deific beings like they were on Toril". Not all deities would have ascended fully, and some may have never left vestige degree. I really dig this take and it dovetails well with what I've been thinking recently. You nailed what I've been trying to land on. quote: Why were they there? Because Ao knew this convergence of worlds would happen. He required gods to go to Abeir to protect mortals. He ALSO may have wanted gods to go there and challenge the primordials because they are an actual threat TO HIM. So, the gods sent there may have also been his cannon fodder. He also may have specifically wanted lesser "gods of magic" there to help setup something of a weave... by getting people to worship, use that worship to enhance "sacrificed objects", and turning those "sacrificed objects full of faith energy" into weave anchors. Then the gods would have their servitors (i.e. adventurers, priests, and lay worshippers ) place these sacrifices at certain locations via visions. While the GODS understood what they were doing... MORTALS did not.... but over time magic became more and more stable, and they attributed it to worshipping the gods of magic... which was true. There are some Faerunian artifacts hidden on Abeir, according to The Devil You Know and what Somni, one of the Mash-en-li, says when they're discussing the location of the Staff of Azuth. "...one at where the Greenfields lay, one near the center of Tymanther's open plain, and one high in the mountains. She tapped the last of them," that last being the Staff. So we have at least 2 unknown relics of Faerunian origin in Abeir around Tymanther. The one amid the plains is "the ruins of stone tower, which none dare breach" and the one at the Greenfields "is a pit that drops down into the heart of the plane, from which a song that never ceases echoes," so these two could easily be divine artifacts designed to rest where deities crossing into Abeir might find them, thus increasing their deific energies and powers without coming into the plane shining like a beacon for sleeping primordials to waken to. quote: But Ed has also said that people travelling there would have problems even remotely learning how to do even the most basic spell. Its documented several times in these tweets. So, taking that into account, what if we somewhat take a page from what happened on Toril with Szass Tam. He summoned Bane and arranged an agreement in exchange for knowledge of how to cast spells. Well... what if a lot of the people who were transferred learned how to "bind" a vestige of some god of magic (i.e. Azuth, Savras, Velsharoon, Leira, Malyk aka Talos, Karsus, Deneir as a god or runes, scrolls, and "spellbooks", a being who may have been the Red Knight OR another goddess like Sif posing as the Red Knight as "god of spell tactics", and maybe even Finder Wyvernspur posing as a god of bardic magic)? Then perhaps these being might arrange a similar exchange of "You can share my body in exchange for knowledge of how to adapt my magic to this world". Now, I'm not saying "instantly having the same power they did before".... but also not "former archmage who is now a mewling weakling unable to cast a light cantrip". Some spellcasters who may have gone somewhat senile may have even had their mental infirmness CURED through sharing their mind with a god/vestige. Again, why do this? So that the people that went to Abeir aren't just prey for the dragon overlords, armies of primordial lords, abolethic sovereignty, etc.. that were there. To make this exchange a somewhat positive thing and not entirely negative. To also try and make a fun story for what these places are like when they return. I imagine that there is more reliance on the natural, innate magics that occur when interacting with primordials + dragons that would have been prevalent in Abeiran society (i.e. the swordmages / dragonfire adepts / binders etc) over a seeking out of what Torilians know as arcane magics. Not ever having had access to the Weave of magic that we know on Toril, they've instead found alternative methods of casting + channeling magic. quote: So, throwing out some theories on some things that MIGHT have occurred Deneir, sensing the death of Mystra and collapsing of her divine domain of Dweomerheart, drew upon the greatest power of runes/glyphs available to him.... the mysterious runes inscribed on the interior shell of the crystal sphere itself. This sent a shockwave through the phlogiston and affected numerous other crystal spheres. It also stopped all spelljamming into realmspace because... the crystal sphere was no longer around realmspace, and "realmspace" became simply another "wildspace system" connected to the astral. But in doing so, he was able to transfer Dweomerheart (along with several other divine domains of other deities) from being attached to "realmspace" and instead being attached to "Abeir". Mask and Leira (longer story, but I got ideas about Leira and her true involvement with Cyric) work together to steal the Karse Stone from Shar just prior to the spellplague. They end up in Abeir. Tyr, Helm, Lathander, and other "dead" deities during the spellplague end up in Abeir as well, sometimes under other names of other pantheons (such as Anachtar, Hemdahl, and Faerthandir of the Metahel pantheon). Some other deities of OTHER pantheons may have posed as Faerunian deities of similar portfolios as well for the worship energy. Hmmmm this feels good. I like the direction. quote: Several places of power in Faerun may have also transferred to Abeir (for instance, the "Ship of the Gods" island between Mulhorand and Unther... a huge swathe of the Shaar, including the Cliffside ruined city of Peleverai with its "Pit of Maleficence" in the tunnels connected to the city. The gods send adventurers via various methods off to find divine artifacts connected to them, and these divine artifacts find their way back to these places of great power, and the divine energy of these artifacts are used to re-empower the deities. Oooooo didn't know about this PoM, definitely going to look into it. I'm also not wildly familiar with the Shaar pre-Sundering, so will have to brush up on that. There's a lot of interchange around plaguelands + Abeir / Toril swapping...perhaps based on portals + gateways that existed that few knew of? quote: In the case of the "Pit of Maleficence" it is rumored to open a gate to the hells. AS AN OPTION, perhaps what it opens into is another divine domain. Erkalla is referenced in the Complete Necromancer's Handbook with Loviatar coming there to negotiate with Cyric for the release of "her sister". Cyric agrees, but says that "she must return every winter". There is no clarity on who "her sister" is. This is similar to the "real world" story of Inanna coming to Erkalla to visit her sister Ereshkigal (goddess of the underworld) to attend the funeral rites of her brother in law Gugalanna "the Bull of Heaven" (Ereshkigal's now dead husband). Ereshkigal's husband is dead because Inanna hit on Gilgamesh, was turned down and jeered, and so she sic'd Gugalanna to attack Gilgamesh and Gilgamesh killed Gugalanna. So, Ereshkigal is rightly p.o.'d at her sister and agrees to let her in the city if she strips down all her regalia of power, and then she promptly has her judges call Inanna guilty and kill her. Ereshkigal then hangs the dead body of her sister goddess in her courtroom, until the other gods send someone to rescue her.... and Ereshkigal agrees to free Inanna if someone will be sent to take her place. Inanna returns to the surface and finds her lover Dumuzi not mourning her, so in a fit of rage decides to send him to Erkalla to take her place. Dumuzi's sister (a goddess of vegetation and fertility) offers to take over half of this sentence, and thus we have winter. Dumuzi eh? Interesting choice Erin made then with the name of Dumuzi Kepeshmolik as the emissary of Enlil in Tymanther. quote: So, what if the Pit of Maleficence opens onto the actual Erkalla, which later was ruled over by Ereshkigal and her NEW husband Nergal. What if Erkalla, similar to Dungeon 148's well of darkness module, is a plane that opens onto Shattered Night via a similar planar tear (even that module states that similar planar tears exist outside the abyss). Maybe powerful beings were entrapped in Erkalla as vestiges (to note, the Pit of Maleficence IS where Gargauth was trapped). Consequently, what if Cyric were in fact trapped in there after the spellplague as well? What if Velsharoon, in his search for information about the divine and vestiges, had in fact learned of Erkalla's secrets and part of his time in Abeir was spent restoring his fellow godlings by bringing divine artifacts for them to "absorb" or possibly even "inhabit" as a means to escape the place where vestiges go. Or what if Gargauth was arranging to restore gods in a similar way in return for "divine favors" in the future. All this seems and feels really sound to me. I dig it!
sleyvas	Posted - 17 May 2024 : 22:53:07 quote: Originally posted by NyluenathaStareyes Ok and also these are two things I also forgot - Drow - worshippers of the Queen of Chaos in Abeir (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Queen_of_Chaos) rather than the Queen of Spiders. How'd they get there if there aren't any elves? We've got the Tearfall happening around -31,000 DR , then the high magic of the elves tearing the world asunder in -17.600 DR, but the descent of the drow isn't until the high magic ritual around -10,000 DR or so right? So, they either went over at some point after that and somehow the Queen of Chaos either used the same move as Wendonai to corrupt a bunch of Ilithyyri so she had her own little pet drow in the deeps of Abeir... Shalarin + Ocean Portals - I coulda sworn I saw something somewhere about there being a connection between the shalarin + portals to Abeir (probably this thread - http://candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22079). Since shalarin living in the Sea of Corynactis were buddies with Dagon, ANOTHER demon lord, it stands to reason that they might be active in Abeir and Toril both, knowing that the lords of the Abyss have access to Abeir in ways that deities do not. On the drow and the "Queen of Chaos", it should be noted that SEVERAL beings can claim that title. One of those is Lolth. However, Tiamat is also referred to as the Queen of Chaos specifically in Unther per Powers and Pantheons pg 104. There's also other "Queens of Chaos" including an abyssal lord. Personally, I'd link the Narren drow with the illythiiri of Narathmault (future Dun-Tharos, capital of Narfell). To note, the "demoncysts" that run throughout the Unapproachable East may have "crossed over" into Abeir... merging portions of "the Hidden Layer" of the Abyss not only with Toril, but also with Abeir. To note, this could allow for links as well to Undrek'Thoz "the Segmented City" .... if perhaps periodically the portals "fritzed" and dump dark elves in Abeir. I've always pictured that those dark elves likely came from Narathmault originally.
sleyvas	Posted - 17 May 2024 : 22:28:50 Agreed, Ed definitely is NOT against the concept of there being "gods" in Abeir. I would also stress that maybe CLERICS did not exist in Abeir, and noting that the spells of clerics in Toril does appear to be "aided" by use of the weave or its equivalent elsewhere. This is why one of the things I proposed is that for Abeir, we actually adopt that some optional DM's Guild rules that were recommended by WotC themselves be adapted for divine casters. What rules? https://www.dmsguild.com/product/192760/Priestess-Ancient-World-Divine-Class?term=priestess. These rules basically make priests that HAVE to sacrifice in some way to get their spells. They have to receive/prepare their spells before a holy idol of their god. At lower levels this holy idol can be as small as a holy symbol, but as the spell level goes up, you may need an idol the size of a wagon or a small house. They also get some abilities that they can modify their idols with (one really nice one that you only get at higher levels is enabling your idol to work like a construct). So, this becomes a very very limiting factor for priests going adventuring, since they'd have to pretty much leave each day to renew spells once they are getting decent spells. Plus, the sacrifices... they're steep (I personally wouldn't make them so harsh), so renewing your spells isn't just "hey god, I'm here, give me spells". There would be no "joe blow needs a cure light wounds because a dog bit him". But, even with these very strict/harsh rules, I could definitely see people becoming priests. Part of the storyline I'd been writing up had the gods essentially working through mortals which would agree to share their bodies... like the avatars which were in existence during the ToT (which are definitely weaker than standard avatars, but still powerful). However, the general idea of the 3.5e binder, wherein a person hosts a "vestige" or "spirit" of a very powerful being trapped in "the place where vestiges exist".... it very much might fit how gods started to return to the world. To that end, under 5e rules, I've made an adaptation of the binder as a variant of a warlock. It might also be that some individuals were granted the power to "bind" a specific vestige of a god, and over the last hundred years these beings went from being "vestiges with little control of their host granting minor power" to "lesser avatars able to share serious control of a mortal body and grant more power" to "creating manifestations of their divine self similar to the gods of Mulhorand and Unther prior to the ToT" to "full fledged avatars no longer prime bound, but still in a body" and finally "deific beings like they were on Toril". Not all deities would have ascended fully, and some may have never left vestige degree. Why were they there? Because Ao knew this convergence of worlds would happen. He required gods to go to Abeir to protect mortals. He ALSO may have wanted gods to go there and challenge the primordials because they are an actual threat TO HIM. So, the gods sent there may have also been his cannon fodder. He also may have specifically wanted lesser "gods of magic" there to help setup something of a weave... by getting people to worship, use that worship to enhance "sacrificed objects", and turning those "sacrificed objects full of faith energy" into weave anchors. Then the gods would have their servitors (i.e. adventurers, priests, and lay worshippers ) place these sacrifices at certain locations via visions. While the GODS understood what they were doing... MORTALS did not.... but over time magic became more and more stable, and they attributed it to worshipping the gods of magic... which was true. But Ed has also said that people travelling there would have problems even remotely learning how to do even the most basic spell. Its documented several times in these tweets. So, taking that into account, what if we somewhat take a page from what happened on Toril with Szass Tam. He summoned Bane and arranged an agreement in exchange for knowledge of how to cast spells. Well... what if a lot of the people who were transferred learned how to "bind" a vestige of some god of magic (i.e. Azuth, Savras, Velsharoon, Leira, Malyk aka Talos, Karsus, Deneir as a god or runes, scrolls, and "spellbooks", a being who may have been the Red Knight OR another goddess like Sif posing as the Red Knight as "god of spell tactics", and maybe even Finder Wyvernspur posing as a god of bardic magic)? Then perhaps these being might arrange a similar exchange of "You can share my body in exchange for knowledge of how to adapt my magic to this world". Now, I'm not saying "instantly having the same power they did before".... but also not "former archmage who is now a mewling weakling unable to cast a light cantrip". Again, why do this? So that the people that went to Abeir aren't just prey for the dragon overlords, armies of primordial lords, abolethic sovereignty, etc.. that were there. To make this exchange a somewhat positive thing and not entirely negative. To also try and make a fun story for what these places are like when they return. At the same time, we have from Ed that Halruaa suffered most mightily from their transfer, so why would they be worse than other areas.... but one might wonder if that might not be from having so MUCH magic to go asunder that their society literally fell apart. So places that were less magic dependent... may have adapted faster. So, throwing out some theories on some things that MIGHT have occurred Deneir, sensing the death of Mystra and collapsing of her divine domain of Dweomerheart, drew upon the greatest power of runes/glyphs available to him.... the mysterious runes inscribed on the interior shell of the crystal sphere itself. This sent a shockwave through the phlogiston and affected numerous other crystal spheres. It also stopped all spelljamming into realmspace because... the crystal sphere was no longer around realmspace, and "realmspace" became simply another "wildspace system" connected to the astral. But in doing so, he was able to transfer Dweomerheart (along with several other divine domains of other deities) from being attached to "realmspace" and instead being attached to "Abeir". Mask and Leira (longer story, but I got ideas about Leira and her true involvement with Cyric) work together to steal the Karse Stone from Shar just prior to the spellplague. They end up in Abeir. Tyr, Helm, Lathander, and other "dead" deities during the spellplague end up in Abeir as well, sometimes under other names of other pantheons (such as Anachtar, Hemdahl, and Faerthandir of the Metahel pantheon). Some other deities of OTHER pantheons may have posed as Faerunian deities of similar portfolios as well for the worship energy. Several places of power in Faerun may have also transferred to Abeir (for instance, the "Ship of the Gods" island between Mulhorand and Unther... a huge swathe of the Shaar, including the Cliffside ruined city of Peleverai with its "Pit of Maleficence" in the tunnels connected to the city. The gods send adventurers via various methods off to find divine artifacts connected to them, and these divine artifacts find their way back to these places of great power, and the divine energy of these artifacts are used to re-empower the deities. In the case of the "Pit of Maleficence" it is rumored to open a gate to the hells. AS AN OPTION, perhaps what it opens into is another divine domain. Erkalla is referenced in the Complete Necromancer's Handbook with Loviatar coming there to negotiate with Cyric for the release of "her sister". Cyric agrees, but says that "she must return every winter". There is no clarity on who "her sister" is. This is similar to the "real world" story of Inanna coming to Erkalla to visit her sister Ereshkigal (goddess of the underworld) to attend the funeral rites of her brother in law Gugalanna "the Bull of Heaven" (Ereshkigal's now dead husband). Ereshkigal's husband is dead because Inanna hit on Gilgamesh, was turned down and jeered, and so she sic'd Gugalanna to attack Gilgamesh and Gilgamesh killed Gugalanna. So, Ereshkigal is rightly p.o.'d at her sister and agrees to let her in the city if she strips down all her regalia of power, and then she promptly has her judges call Inanna guilty and kill her. Ereshkigal then hangs the dead body of her sister goddess in her courtroom, until the other gods send someone to rescue her.... and Ereshkigal agrees to free Inanna if someone will be sent to take her place. Inanna returns to the surface and finds her lover Dumuzi not mourning her, so in a fit of rage decides to send him to Erkalla to take her place. Dumuzi's sister (a goddess of vegetation and fertility) offers to take over half of this sentence, and thus we have winter. So, what if the Pit of Maleficence opens onto the actual Erkalla, which later was ruled over by Ereshkigal and her NEW husband Nergal. What if Erkalla, similar to Dungeon 148's well of darkness module, is a plane that opens onto Shattered Night via a similar planar tear (even that module states that similar planar tears exist outside the abyss). Maybe powerful beings were entrapped in Erkalla as vestiges (to note, the Pit of Maleficence IS where Gargauth was trapped). Consequently, what if Cyric were in fact trapped in there after the spellplague as well? What if Velsharoon, in his search for information about the divine and vestiges, had in fact learned of Erkalla's secrets and part of his time in Abeir was spent restoring his fellow godlings by bringing divine artifacts for them to "absorb" or possibly even "inhabit" as a means to escape the place where vestiges go. Or what if Gargauth was arranging to restore gods in a similar way in return for "divine favors" in the future.
NyluenathaStareyes	Posted - 17 May 2024 : 17:16:58 Zeromaru X, thank you for chiming in. Glad to see you active on the Discord for Ed too! quote: Originally posted by Zeromaru X Just to add stuff about magic, dragonborn sorcerers were a thing in old Tymanchebar, as dragonborn warriors known as "dragonfoes" used their innate magic powers to protect Tymanchebar from dragon attacks (they were a multiclass of barbarian+sorcerers; see the Dragonfoe Ragespell paragon path in "Adventurers of the Realms: Displaced Lands and Dire Frontiers", Dragon 379), meaning that sorcerers (or at least, draconic sorcerers) are a thing in Abeir. Likewise, the Anarchs of Shyr are an order of swordmages (eldritch knights, in 5e parlance) that operates out of Shyr (see the Anarch of Shyr paragon path in the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide, p.47), and in the past an specific order of shamans mixed their "primal" (druidic) magic with the practices of the swordmages to create an order of "spiritblades" (see the Shyran Spiritblade paragon path in "Adventurers of the Realms: Displaced Lands and Dire Frontiers", Dragon 379). I definitely need to refresh myself on these, been a minute since I did a dive back into the 4e Laerakond lore. There were a few articles in Dragon + Dungeon Magazine that delve into Gontal and Tarmalune too IIRC. Thankee kindly for lighting this particular fire under my arse! quote: Likewise, there is this mysterious blessing in the Steelsky of Abeir that gives people divine-like spells if they are fighting against dragons or elementals (see the Steelksky Liberator paragon path in the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide, p.65). It's possible this blessing may be the origin of Halagothra's powers (she is an old woman who lives in Tarmalune, and has the ability to cast healing spells even if she is not a cleric. She is mentioned in the Tarmalune section of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide). Halagothra's existence implies there is people in Abeir able to cast healing spells, even if such individuals are rare. I believe Halagothra also plays a significant role in the few RPGA/LFR adventures that take place in Laerakond, alongside good ole Blazing Rorn, right? The steelsky is also a really intriguing feature. Dragonheirs are also SO COOL . Got a whole short story in Realms of the Dead that gives us some fun snippets of lore on those folks. I wonder if Ed is NDA bound on any bits about them... quote: Psionic powers are also a thing in Abeir, according to the Realmslore about psionics in the Psionic Power sourcebook (4e). The exact origins of psionic powers on Abeir are a mystery, and that section mentions many theories about this. Definitely need to re-read the 4e Psionic Power, it's been a minute. I did find a preeeeetty interesting little tidbit about psionics when digging around in the Grotto that could be a part of fleshing out Abeir - http://candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24782&whichpage=4&SearchTerms=amaunor Methinks that the amaunors are about in Abeir...Also a whole ass KINGDOM of psionicists (Jhaamdaath) was wiped out and not a single one was a precog? Smells fishy...or sea elfy... quote: Originally posted by questing gm On opinion on Psioinics Jenzar El � 02/24/2023 9:00 AM @Ed Greenwood just a random question, whats your opinion on Psioinics? It's my favorite thing in the realms. I feel 2E was tough to understand but I love it in 3.5E. Was Psionics in your early version of the realms or was this something added in later? Ed Greenwood � 02/25/2023 2:28 AM The game rules of psionics (which kept changing, and which at one time TSR even wanted to pull out into its own game that could be played alongside D&D) were added into the Realms later, but it was in the Realms from the beginning (before D&D existed), as "amauna" or "mind-magic." 5eForechecker (Ruf) � 02/25/2023 3:31 AM Okay, it CANT be a coincidence that word �amauna� is the same as the beginning of Amaunator, can it? Friend Ed, can you speak to the connection there? Ed Greenwood � 02/25/2023 11:26 AM You're right, it can't. ;} Ahem, NDA mumble mumble Second NDA mumble mumble elevenses mumble... George Krashos � 02/25/2023 7:07 AM Realmswise, would this be a Jhaamdathi/Thorass word that has now moved into Common territory? Also, would a psionicist be an �amaunor�? Ed Greenwood � 02/25/2023 11:29 AM Yes, and yes to "amaunor." I also posit that the Jhaamdathan kingdom could have been removed to Abeir. It is said that the First City, Dinnilith, phased in and out of existence. I'll have to check back in on Lost Empires of Faerun for the exact passage. If anyone else has it, please share along. quote: Also, there is a mention to "living spells" in Rhaurok (in Laerakond), in the section about Skelkor in the FRCG. I don't know exactly what "living spells" are in the context of the Forgotten Realms, as I only know the Eberron ones, but I guess they are a thing in Abeir as well. As for living spells, see the combat scene set in Abeir (the only one in novel print I believe!) in The Devil You Know for how living spells could potentially work. Think like...Contra power-ups but for the bad guys too if disturbed. I liked the vibe they gave the battle.
sleyvas	Posted - 17 May 2024 : 12:49:45 To note, healing spells are not exclusive to divine casters. Bards in 3e/3.5e could cast healing spells using "arcane" magic (I put it in quotes as I've always felt that the division into two forms of magic was wrong, though it did make it simpler from a mechanical perspective to multiclass with prestige classes in 3.5e... so for that purpose I appreciate it). The main thing to bardic magic being arcane in my book is that it's a "developed" form of magic like wizardry (as in people experiment and MAKE new bardic spells just like wizards do). In 5e it's the same... not sure offhand of 4e, but I think it was true there as well. From this we can make some presumptions... options listed below that appear to my mind A) Abeirans haven't discovered or can't do bardic magic (preferred no... too limiting) B) the dragonborn of Laerakond haven't discovered bardic magic (again, preferred no... but possibly it was discouraged by their dragon overlords and is thus rarer) C) Bards of Laerakond haven't discovered these particular bardic spells, primarily because they had never seen other healing magic to "modify" from. In other words, bards on other worlds probably watched divine spellcasters work, understood SOME of what they were doing, and experimented to duplicate the effect. I specify bards of Laerakond, because other parts of the world MAY have bards that heal and just the dragonborn of Laerakond have never seen this. (I prefer this answer). On "living spells" the realms essentially has the same thing, prior to Eberron even, specifically in Rashemen near ruins of the Raumathari. Some notes below from Unapproachable East call them "spell wards" but it specifically notes them to seem to be "spells given life". Similar to Eberron's instance as well they appear to be near some ruins that may have been near a battlefield AND they appear to be somewhere where "magitech" was in play. This very much lends to Wooly's suppositions that beings akin to warforged (i.e. living constructs) may have been being developed in this area ... especially since it appears that what went awry became a form of "living" magic. pg 128 In addition to its native spirits, Rashemen features many old sites of battle between the dead warring nations, and from time to time dormant spells are awakened, rocking the land with earthquakes, freakish storms, and strange monsters. Fortunately, most of these battlefields are in the northern, less populated reaches of the country. pg 134 - section The North Country The most famous ruin is the Ring of Gray Flames, a circle of five narrow towers, each with a harsh gray fire burning atop it. The flame emits only a feeble light but disrupts divine magic brought near it. Occasionally, grinding noises can be heard within the two intact towers. The countryside surrounding the towers is roamed by spell wards, free-willed magical constructs that seem to be spells given life. Finally, after seeing Ed's responses to some of my ideas yesterday... my mind has gone back to them and I'm intrigued to figure out HOW to implement some of my ideas. I'm going to start another response to focus just on that idea though, so that people's replies can be cleaner.
Zeromaru X	Posted - 17 May 2024 : 02:38:20 Just to add stuff about magic, dragonborn sorcerers were a thing in old Tymanchebar, as dragonborn warriors known as "dragonfoes" used their innate magic powers to protect Tymanchebar from dragon attacks (they were a multiclass of barbarian+sorcerers; see the Dragonfoe Ragespell paragon path in "Adventurers of the Realms: Displaced Lands and Dire Frontiers", Dragon 379), meaning that sorcerers (or at least, draconic sorcerers) are a thing in Abeir. Likewise, the Anarchs of Shyr are an order of swordmages (eldritch knights, in 5e parlance) that operates out of Shyr (see the Anarch of Shyr paragon path in the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide, p.47), and in the past an specific order of shamans mixed their "primal" (druidic) magic with the practices of the swordmages to create an order of "spiritblades" (see the Shyran Spiritblade paragon path in "Adventurers of the Realms: Displaced Lands and Dire Frontiers", Dragon 379). Likewise, there is this mysterious blessing in the Steelsky of Abeir that gives people divine-like spells if they are fighting against dragons or elementals (see the Steelksky Liberator paragon path in the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide, p.65). It's possible this blessing may be the origin of Halagothra's powers (she is an old woman who lives in Tarmalune, and has the ability to cast healing spells even if she is not a cleric. She is mentioned in the Tarmalune section of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide). Halagothra's existence implies there is people in Abeir able to cast healing spells, even if such individuals are rare. Psionic powers are also a thing in Abeir, according to the Realmslore about psionics in the Psionic Power sourcebook (4e). The exact origins of psionic powers on Abeir are a mystery, and that section mentions many theories about this. Also, there is a mention to "living spells" in Rhaurok (in Laerakond), in the section about Skelkor in the FRCG. I don't know exactly what "living spells" are in the context of the Forgotten Realms, as I only know the Eberron ones, but I guess they are a thing in Abeir as well.
NyluenathaStareyes	Posted - 17 May 2024 : 01:08:05 Ok and also these are two things I also forgot - Drow - worshippers of the Queen of Chaos in Abeir (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Queen_of_Chaos) rather than the Queen of Spiders. How'd they get there if there aren't any elves? We've got the Tearfall happening around -31,000 DR , then the high magic of the elves tearing the world asunder in -17.600 DR, but the descent of the drow isn't until the high magic ritual around -10,000 DR or so right? So, they either went over at some point after that and somehow the Queen of Chaos either used the same move as Wendonai to corrupt a bunch of Ilithyyri so she had her own little pet drow in the deeps of Abeir... Shalarin + Ocean Portals - I coulda sworn I saw something somewhere about there being a connection between the shalarin + portals to Abeir (probably this thread - http://candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22079). Since shalarin living in the Sea of Corynactis were buddies with Dagon, ANOTHER demon lord, it stands to reason that they might be active in Abeir and Toril both, knowing that the lords of the Abyss have access to Abeir in ways that deities do not.
NyluenathaStareyes	Posted - 17 May 2024 : 00:37:45 I've been pondering on some of the lore as it pertains to this topic while perusing the forums for some snippets and was thinking about the Sundering and what bits of Toril got displaced to Abeir and how that information might give us more insight into some of the other areas in Abeir. There are a few places that instantly spring to mind that have been touched upon. Areas to consider - Mulhorand - some areas of this part of the realms may have been chucked onto the continent of Shyr alongside Unther (find the DMs Guild sourcebook here - https://www.dmsguild.com/product/458929/Mulhorand-Campaign-Guide) where it notes some of the people of Mulhorand lived in Abeir. The Devil You Know specifically outlines the relationship of Mulhorandi slavery to the Shyran forces. Unther - the being known as the Son of Victory / King of Dust led the Untheric people of Abeir in revolt against the 'tyrants of Shyr' before being transported back to Toril through the machinations of Graz'zt (as per the books Ashes of the Tyrant and The Devil You Know by Erin M. Evans and a great synopsis found here - http://candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21817 which I see you've been in on sleyvas!) during the Second Sundering. They were transported back when attacking a "walled city of genasi slavers," and Farideh does note that the area she is shown where three relics in Abeir but not OF Abeir - one of which is the Staff of Azuth. We also get introduced the Mash-en-li, a tribe of stone giants from Abeir that wield strange dream magics based off of runic tattos/carvings into their flesh. We also learn of draumrting's, amulets that echo magical abilities. Maztica - we know that Maztica disappeared from Toril, but it did not reappear in the same area of the planet based on the latest information we have on Abeir (or at least was undiscovered if so!) Plaguewrought Lands - it is suggested that the plaguelands could hold portals to Abeir. Halruaa - we know from Ed that Halruaa was sent to Abeir, most of its magics broken and shattered during the Sundering. The intense breakdown in their society from reliance on magics created a new Halruaan mindset that relied far less on their magics in the new world of Abeir and it's Weave-less state. A couple of hypothesizing notes/ramblings - Magic - we know that magic DOES work on Abeir, it's just not accessible through the conduit of the Weave. Dream magic, magical items, elemental + innate magics etc. There is also the area of Lhoraun mentioned with some wizard buddies flying around. Deities - while we were initially led to believe that gods did NOT exist there, that may not be entirely true. They certainly aren't mucking around like they have been in Toril, but Ed did refute the idea that gods do not have any influence in Abeir. Demons + Devils - seems like demons have access to Abeir, but not devils? Graz'zt's bargain with Gilgeam + the maurezhi sent to assassinate the Vanquisher before their return to Toril would indicate ole G-Six-Fingers had known the Second Sundering was coming. Just a couple of things I was chewing on, wanted to put them out as food for thought.
sleyvas	Posted - 16 May 2024 : 21:50:51 quote: Originally posted by questing gm https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1089624714606186496 Mimuay Tavai, a lesser avatar of Velsharoon on Abeir Wait.... what the heck??? I never saw this and its about what I created for the United Tharchs. You just made me recreate my twitter account so that I could read this. Hmmm, just in case I have to come back later, I'm drilling in and copying the whole conversation here Holy cow .... I LOVE THIS .... Ed just basically enabled my concepts that I was working on, and I didn't even know it for the last 4 years. Matthew Dawkins - RPG Developer And I'm not done with you yet! I was always a big fan of Lynn Abbey's treatment of Thay and Aglarond in The Simbul's Gift. She particularly added excellent detail to the characters of the Simbul and Lauzoril. The Simbul granted Lauzoril the ability to call out her true name to request aid at any point. As the timeline has now moved on and I suspect we shan't see Lauzoril or his family again, could you shed some light on when / if Lauzoril ever called in this favour prior to his assumed demise at the hands of Szass Tam and a very steep drop? It would provide closure to a plot line set up in the mid '90s and a character I really enjoyed reading about. Additionally, anything you have to say on Lauzoril's family, his daughter, etc. and if they made it out of Thay would be excellent. Ed Greenwood I, too, loved what Lynn did in THE SIMBUL�S GIFT. Certain things are still NDA�d, despite (as you rightly point out) the timeline having moved on, so I have to tongue-tread carefully here, but let�s just say that Lauzoril had� �ALREADY called in this favour before the events you allude to. I can go so far as to say esteemed Realms scholar sleyvas is right: Lauzoril did not perish then, but escaped magically, thanks to prior preparations, and got��and got his family out of Thay and into ongoing hiding (that�s where the use of his favour from The Simbul comes in). As for any question as to why Lauzoril or his fellow Zulkirs didn�t call on The Simbul to humble Szass Tam��or wreck his schemes, they would not have wanted to seem weak, and Mystra would have forbidden it because of the Athora (see TYRANTS IN SCARLET by George Krashos, available at the DM�s Guild). Moreover, both Lauzoril and both��of his daughters are still alive today (in the 1400s DR). How? I buy sleyvas�s idea that Lauzoril�s daughter Mimuay Tavai became a mage-priestess of Velsharoon, and later the lesser avatar of Velsharoon on Abeir (as he proposed��in a thread in the Candlekeep forums familiar to you). At her request, the deity awakened Lauzoril�s clone. Lauzoril�s other daughter, Nyasia, had her own means of longevity. What are they all up to, these days? Ah, for that we�ll have to wait and see�
NyluenathaStareyes	Posted - 16 May 2024 : 18:10:13 the organization on these treasures is chefs kiss questing_gm! Thanks for adding these into the think tank. Also Harkaum?? Sent me into a little tailspin of delight looking into that one. I do love how Ed just casually drops lorebombs like "oh yes, whole planet of Larloch servitor liches nbd!" Love to see some more Abeir goodness coming together! Now about that indiscriminate list...
questing gm	Posted - 16 May 2024 : 12:15:25 On Abeir's Common Gustavo Tortato � 09/15/2023 9:45 AM Hey Ed! Do people over at Abeir have something close to Toril's common? Is Aklave used widely by everyone there, or only the draconic races? Ed Greenwood � 09/16/2023 11:15 AM Folk of Abeir speak Thorass (Old Common) due to previous contacts with Toril, and Aklave is used widely among most Abeirans, as well. (Also: more lore on Abeir is on the way...)
questing gm	Posted - 16 May 2024 : 12:11:26 On continuing Abeir's timeline post Second Sundering Gustavo Tortato � 02/15/2023 10:09 PM Hey @Ed Greenwood, I know this may be under infinite NDAs or maybe just a subject better left forgotten, but is there any intention from you to continue the timeline of the Realms over at Abeir after the Second Sundering? Being that in the form of soucebooks or even novels? Ed Greenwood � 02/16/2023 10:22 AM Intentions, oh yes. However, there ARE NDAs that must be navigated, and I have less than no time these days (and Abeir lends itself to being "compartmentalized" and set aside for a bit), so it may be a while.
questing gm	Posted - 16 May 2024 : 12:09:21 On Larloch liches in Abeir RPGMatch � 02/11/2023 11:37 PM @Ed Greenwood what three worlds would that be that Larloch has liches working for him in? Ed Greenwood � 02/12/2023 1:00 AM Abeir, Oerth, and Harkaum.
questing gm	Posted - 16 May 2024 : 11:58:28 I was initially thinking of vetting through these to determine what is relevant lore or not, but since this scroll is for that, I decided to throw the whole kitchen sink, and let the collective sages here decide. I have sort them into relative broad categories, so that you can hone in on particular areas of interest as you build your own knowledge base. This post will only cover #realmslore tweets from Ed (those from the Discord will get their own respective posts). This will just be a compilation of links to tweets and their relative titles. I will, however, not include tweets that mentions Abeir in passing, and/or not the main context/answer/lore of the tweet, but you can contact me if you want an indiscriminate list. Geography Earth motes in Abeir https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1084504355024367617 Dragon dominated continents in Abeir https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1236001671223873537 Is Abeir on a different plane? https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1236721695572070408 Culture Is this High Wyrmish the same "Aragrakh" language mentioned in the 3e FRCS? https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1099502069084573696 How to name a silver dragon lord from Abeir https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1181753166104322049 Halruaans befrieding Aberians https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/899663947028205568 The relationship between Aberian dragonborn and Bahamut's dragonborn https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1724934340537135563 How do Aberian humans look like? https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1226307272055324674 Magic The 'Weave' in Abeir (or how magic would work) https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1237055810506756103 Possible to travel between Toril and Abeir now? https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/956926676344197120 Possible to travel between Toril and Abeir then (Time of Dragons)? https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1135001614408986624 Torilian gods in Abeir: https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/689096511276331009 Does psionics work in Abeir https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1236721691700670472 Does Torilian magic work in Abeir? https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1236726217090502659 Toril connections/Sundering Goblin Forest in 4E https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1685831786088042496 Yuan-ti tribes in Abeir: https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1381400247067422721 Sundering causing Deneir's madness: https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1291086946895302662 Sharns freed from the Sharn Wall in Anauroch in Abeir: https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1226349305537159168 Fangshields in Abeir: https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1240368392684670978 Parts of Laerakond still in Toril? https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1473111124564393988 Halruaa in Abeir https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1629183818421747714 Misc Who added Abeir https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1199802809891336192 Ehlonna worship in Abeir https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1089624714606186496 Mimuay Tavai, a lesser avatar of Velsharoon on Abeir https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1222675170592202754 Abeir; 'cradle' or 'life' https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1355632073432817667 Kuyutha worship in Abeir https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1129909608343113743 NDAs What happened to Returned Abeir after the Sundering? https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/682029506744422401
sleyvas	Posted - 15 May 2024 : 21:53:14 Rereading through what Ed said as far as changes and what I responded with... I was wrong... this Ranthram chain would seem to be a lot further south. 1. in the sea just viewer's right of the central meridian (between the lowest latitude mark-like and the one above it), an arc like a flattened "C" of islands, with a few scattered either side of it, and three big islands along the center of the arc = The Ranthram chain So, if we were looking at that prior drawing and looked on the BOTTOM half of the world beneath Lhoraun and southwest of Marranth.. That should be where this Ranthram Chain of islands is located.
sleyvas	Posted - 15 May 2024 : 20:15:33 quote: Originally posted by varyar All is not lost, my friends: https://web.archive.org/web/20240101105608if_/https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1072136642162343986/1190098651834495067/Abeir-2.png Thank you man. I saved off the image locally and I may take a stab at making something a little more detailed with more of Ed's notes added in the future (that's if Ed himself doesn't eventually have someone make a map).
NyluenathaStareyes	Posted - 15 May 2024 : 17:04:43 quote: Originally posted by sleyvas Thank you much, this is exactly where I was hoping things might lead. Maybe this thread become a focal point for "links" that get dropped, and then the FR Wiki get updated with the more detailed information. I see you added what appears to be a transcription of what he said in the video. If Questing GM can find the more references and post them here, maybe we can get a decent movement on updating this section of the FR Wiki. Love that idea, Abeir has always fascinated me (one of the best things to come out of the Spellplague, IMO) so I love getting these tidbits from El. I pulled the information I got from the Patreon doc that is the transcript for the video - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XBeeDMJFnzo I did my best to re-word a bit so as to not just copy paste, but keep the original intent without adding overmuch of my own ideas. Will update once I�ve added in information on the few regions we got some details on! I follow the Discord, will see if I can mine any interesting nuggets of lore from there too. questing_gm any lorefinding you can do will be greatly appreciated!
sleyvas	Posted - 15 May 2024 : 16:44:11 quote: Originally posted by NyluenathaStareyes Saw this post and got inspired to add the new information to the FR Wiki to flesh out a bit more about Abeir and its lands. Which leads me to the fact now I should probably add in wiki pages for all the new locations! More forthcoming there. Did a quick jaunt through Ed�s Twitter to garner some more tidbits too. https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Abeir Thank you much, this is exactly where I was hoping things might lead. Maybe this thread become a focal point for "links" that get dropped, and then the FR Wiki get updated with the more detailed information. I see you added what appears to be a transcription of what he said in the video. If Questing GM can find the more references and post them here, maybe we can get a decent movement on updating this section of the FR Wiki.
sleyvas	Posted - 15 May 2024 : 16:34:29 quote: Originally posted by questing gm I can easily search and compile all related tweets and answers in the Discord from Ed regarding Abeir if that's what you are looking for, or are you searching for particular snippets of lore on particular subjects? Missed this part when I replied earlier. This might be a good idea. I mean, I'm betting Ed's making a lot of this up as he goes, but he's also been good in the past about trying to maintain continuity (stress trying, which is always hard when you don't have a concrete beginning). It could be a very fun project to try and "build" Abeir from bits and pieces with sages applying their own ideas to things.
NyluenathaStareyes	Posted - 15 May 2024 : 15:07:41 Saw this post and got inspired to add the new information to the FR Wiki to flesh out a bit more about Abeir and its lands. Which leads me to the fact now I should probably add in wiki pages for all the new locations! More forthcoming there. Did a quick jaunt through Ed�s Twitter to garner some more tidbits too. https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Abeir
varyar	Posted - 15 May 2024 : 14:56:21 All is not lost, my friends: https://web.archive.org/web/20240101105608if_/https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1072136642162343986/1190098651834495067/Abeir-2.png
sleyvas	Posted - 15 May 2024 : 14:53:52 quote: Originally posted by questing gm I can easily search and compile all related tweets and answers in the Discord from Ed regarding Abeir if that's what you are looking for, or are you searching for particular snippets of lore on particular subjects? As for the unavailable link of the map, it currently works here: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1072136642162343986/1190098651834495067/Abeir-2.png?ex=6644b37d&is=664361fd&hm=7a8731f2925ec4601e9a0698cabc53be315039dfa5f8ed49d8cb176cf19b537c I much rather if the forum has a way for me to insert the images directly, so that I won't have to update the link as it changes ever so often. Damn, even that one's gone. I knew I should have grabbed a screenshot (I mean I know it was non canon, had little detail, had some pretty obvious scale issues that I pointed out above, but it was at least somewhat approved and gave something of an idea of placement and rough general shape of some continents... at least it was better than the junk map I made). If someone finds it again, please save off the image and put it up somewhere. I don't want to use it directly, but I'd like to get an idea of rough shapes that aren't coming from memory.
ElfBane	Posted - 15 May 2024 : 09:42:36 quote: I much rather if the forum has a way for me to insert the images directly, so that I won't have to update the link as it changes ever so often. The ability to put images directly into Candelkeep Forums is something that has been desired for a while now. It's not gonna happen with this old forum software. And it might not happen even if the site is upgraded. Allowing direct image insertion will GREATLY increase the data stored here, and almost certainly greatly increase the COST of maintaining it. Perhaps Alaundo will notice this post, and grace us with some Forum update news.
questing gm	Posted - 15 May 2024 : 05:45:34 I can easily search and compile all related tweets and answers in the Discord from Ed regarding Abeir if that's what you are looking for, or are you searching for particular snippets of lore on particular subjects? As for the unavailable link of the map, it currently works here: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1072136642162343986/1190098651834495067/Abeir-2.png?ex=6644b37d&is=664361fd&hm=7a8731f2925ec4601e9a0698cabc53be315039dfa5f8ed49d8cb176cf19b537c I much rather if the forum has a way for me to insert the images directly, so that I won't have to update the link as it changes ever so often.
Zeromaru X	Posted - 14 May 2024 : 18:11:59 The content of the link is no longer available. But, if it is the map I think it is, the map is fanmade, not Ed's. But yes, there are a few contradictions between this new info and the older info. For instance, Ed barely mentioned the genasi on his video, while older products (such as the FRCG or "The Devil You Know", by Erin Evans, put the genasi as the dominant race on Shyr).

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