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NyluenathaStareyes
Acolyte
USA
14 Posts |
 Posted - 18 May 2024 : 09:35:14
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Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I get bored quickly, so I like to talk there as well.  But as you'll notice sooner or later, I prefer a more modern take in fantasy, that may be at odds with people who likes the traditional D&D lore sometimes, lol
Noted!  I love the lore, but I also love advancing the vibrancy of the realms. Despite my initial disgruntlement with the Spellplague, I kinda liked it once I got into the novels about all the freaky new places that were in the Realms. Get weird, I'm into it!
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Originally posted by Zeromaru X
If you have access to the Psionic Power sourcebook, it has a story about how bad can be to have people with psionic powers for the defense of a kingdom. Page 6 has the tale of a dragonborn city that fell to an orc attack because the dragonborn "ardents" (empaths) got depressed after a princess died and their sadness "infected" the other dragonborn leaders and soldiers, making them fail against a force they would have defeated in normal circumstances.
Perhaps something similar happened to Jhaamdaath...
The most emo of the emo boys. Take down the whole kingdom with your sadness. I just read it haha...dang. Those sadbois failing Arkhosia, no bueno. Turn that frown upside down or else you doom the kingdom! No big.
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Originally posted by Zeromaru X
You got me curious here.
EDIT:
I read about Dinnilith. While it's true that the place vanished during the catastrophe, I doubt it survived it. Lost Empires of Faerûn says the place is full of an undead thing that reminds me of the mist of Shadar Logoth (from the Wheel of Time), and the place may not even be physical, but a psychic impression or something.
Ah, well that tiny little thread gets snipped. Not to worry, perhaps the Eminence of Araunt somehow made contact...I imagine there are a fair number of portals in that area. |
Realms fan for life! |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11729 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2024 : 20:42:47
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Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Because Ao knew this convergence of worlds would happen. He required gods to go to Abeir to protect mortals.
You destroyed my immersion here, sleyvas. The Second Sundering that Ao started killed A LOT of mortals between all the wars, natural catastrophes and magical chaos Ao unleashed on the world, just for him to "fix" things. I don't believe he care for mortals at all.
I'm also not much of a fan of the idea of creating a Weave on Abeir. Leave that world away from Mystra's tyrannical monopoly of magic,
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So that the people that went to Abeir aren't just prey for the dragon overlords, armies of primordial lords, abolethic sovereignty, etc..
Why do you have to spoil all the fun? Dragons deserve to have a good time, too
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Consequently, what if Cyric were in fact trapped in there after the spellplague as well?
This idea is even less appealing to me than having a Weave on Abeir, lol I prefer Cyric as a poser who was stripped of power and is not even demigod-level now.
Not to spoil the fun, but if this Erkalla place is part of the Nine Hells, then the idea may not work, as per The Devil You Know, Abeir is completely cut off of the Nine Hells, and the place has no influence in Abeir. That's why Fiendish Warlocks (ie.Farideh) and even proper devils (Lorcan) were completely powerless in Abeir, and why the Staff of Azuth was hidden there, so Asmodeus could not find it.
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Dumuzi eh? Interesting choice Erin made then with the name of Dumuzi Kepeshmolik as the emissary of Enlil in Tymanther.
Curiously enough, dragonborn names are from many Middle East cultures. Even before Erin Evans took the dragonborn under her wing, there are names like Medrash and Balasar (Jew), Tarhun (an Hittite god), Abraxus (obviously, the gnostic being), and the like.
On the Ao "causing the death of the mortals", the part that I would stress here that maybe wasn't apparent. I don't view Ao as having the control here. He knows that the world convergence is coming. He likely has a good idea of when it will occur. But he doesn't CAUSE it. I'm very much of the idea that he also didn't necessarily "create" Abeir so much as "put it to use". He also may not have much CONTROL in Abeir (i.e. he's very glad that the primordials are over there where they can't get to him ... like they almost did during the first Sundering). I'm very in favor of limiting Ao's power. So, he knows that these mortals will be shifting to Abeir. He knows he can't save them all. He knows he has an excess of gods that serve him.... and he's not afraid to send them over and possibly die in order to protect these mortals. They may even gain him a foothold there or eliminate some threats.
On the making of a weave... I don't mean "making Mystra in power and control"... I mean the "weave" in the form that its found on most other worlds... a place where regular magic can be used and the concept of a wizard may exist.... but these self same wizards may have problems if they LEAVE these areas. To note, this essentially is putting "the weave" of Abeir in the hands of a large number of different "gods of magic", and not one specific being. It would more or less resemble a power grid, with this power grid only being extended near these settlements of Torilians.
In some ways this concept would somewhat resemble the same idea as the Priests ruleset, except that the priests concept is only for memorizing spells.... these guys would have to transport their power source with them if they left these areas.
On the concept of the Pit of Maleficence having "Erkalla" at its "bottom". The statement in canon lore is that people THINK a portal to the hells lies at the bottom. I posit... maybe its different... that it would be a way to link in a link to the "Underworld" divine domain of the Babylonian Pantheon (which the Untheric people absorbed deities of this pantheon into their own, in the forms of at least Ramman and Ishtar) ... and I only mentioned that particular place because there's a reference to Cyric, that city, and Loviatar in the 2nd edition Complete Necromancer's Handbook. But, and "Underworld" ruled by various gods of death over time which ALSO has a history of people going there and "being unable to return".... very much could be a place where powerful beings get imprisoned much like Shattered Night did with vestiges.
The idea would be that city of Peleverai in the Shaar went to Abeir. The undercity of Peleverai has the Pit of Maleficence. The Pit of Maleficence contains the "path" / "portal" or whatever to Erkalla. Erkalla itself could be just an underdark cavern... or it could be a place on the other side of a portal. But then the idea would be that IT has a planar tear onto shattered night, and it was in shattered night that Gargauth had been entrapped/imprisoned as a vestige until he got released by the Cult of the Dragon.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2454 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2024 : 04:49:19
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On the Ao "causing the death of the mortals", the part that I would stress here that maybe wasn't apparent. I don't view Ao as having the control here. He knows that the world convergence is coming. He likely has a good idea of when it will occur. But he doesn't CAUSE it. I'm very much of the idea that he also didn't necessarily "create" Abeir so much as "put it to use". He also may not have much CONTROL in Abeir (i.e. he's very glad that the primordials are over there where they can't get to him ... like they almost did during the first Sundering). I'm very in favor of limiting Ao's power. So, he knows that these mortals will be shifting to Abeir. He knows he can't save them all. He knows he has an excess of gods that serve him.... and he's not afraid to send them over and possibly die in order to protect these mortals. They may even gain him a foothold there or eliminate some threats.
You know, I can buy the idea of Ao being the not all powerful being they want us to believe, however, it's hard to believe he was not in control of the Second Sundering when the event was so selective in what returned, specially when the things that stayed required the active participation of entities way less powerful than Ao was during the ToT (like, worship-less Enlil making Tymanther to stay).
I also don't believe Ao cares at all for mortals, but that's my belief, lol. He seems to not even regard them at all in official materials (save for these weird Elminster novels), where he seems to care more for the gods.
I also like the idea that Ao didn't created Abeir, specially after we discovered that the geography doesn't match with what we know of ancient Toril. It makes me wonder why the orbits of Toril and Abeir intersect, tho...
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On the making of a weave... I don't mean "making Mystra in power and control"...
Oh, but by putting all of Mystra's subordinates in control, you're given her ALL the control, lol.
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I mean the "weave" in the form that its found on most other worlds... a place where regular magic can be used and the concept of a wizard may exist...
I don't know. I feel it's like allowing regular clerics to exist in Dark Sun. You change one of the key concepts of this world, and with it the feeling of the setting. Just like there are no clerics in Dark Sun, the idea is that Abeir has no wizards. And yeah, you're giving them "limitations" (thought, there is really no limitation when they can carry their power source to whatever place they go), but still changes the feeling of the setting IMO.
Yeah, that would mean that poor Big Name NPC wizard is going to be an ingredient on a dragon's dinner because the setting is against him, but the same would happen if Big Name NPC cleric goes to Athas, he is going to become a practice target for the Templars. That's their fault for going to places they are not supposed to be, lol
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The idea would be that city of Peleverai in the Shaar went to Abeir. The undercity of Peleverai has the Pit of Maleficence. The Pit of Maleficence contains the "path" / "portal" or whatever to Erkalla. Erkalla itself could be just an underdark cavern... or it could be a place on the other side of a portal. But then the idea would be that IT has a planar tear onto shattered night, and it was in shattered night that Gargauth had been entrapped/imprisoned as a vestige until he got released by the Cult of the Dragon.
That would make sense... I'm just saying that canonically (as in, in a published product), it has been said that Abeir is closed to the Outer Planes. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11729 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2024 : 20:16:15
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Yes, Abeir is closed off... until the spellplague apparently. So, the idea is "city of Peleverai along with Pit of Maleficence beneath it" transfers to Abeir... and thereby DRAGS over this planar tear with it.
The more I think on it though.... I think I actually like the idea that the bottom of the pit opens onto Erkalla... but Erkalla being a city in the Underdark which has the planar tear (and heck.... as long as we have the freedom to do it... maybe it has OTHER portals as well... it could be fun to make this city and tie it to the babylonian or Untheric pantheons. It may have even been where Nergal actually resided, since both he and Ereshkigal were said to rule the city... so if they had manifestations stuck on Toril they may have made a prime version of their underworld. Maybe they even made it from some even older city which had the planar tear that they found. Could be fun to make this history. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11729 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2024 : 20:42:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On the Ao "causing the death of the mortals", the part that I would stress here that maybe wasn't apparent. I don't view Ao as having the control here. He knows that the world convergence is coming. He likely has a good idea of when it will occur. But he doesn't CAUSE it. I'm very much of the idea that he also didn't necessarily "create" Abeir so much as "put it to use". He also may not have much CONTROL in Abeir (i.e. he's very glad that the primordials are over there where they can't get to him ... like they almost did during the first Sundering). I'm very in favor of limiting Ao's power. So, he knows that these mortals will be shifting to Abeir. He knows he can't save them all. He knows he has an excess of gods that serve him.... and he's not afraid to send them over and possibly die in order to protect these mortals. They may even gain him a foothold there or eliminate some threats.
You know, I can buy the idea of Ao being the not all powerful being they want us to believe, however, it's hard to believe he was not in control of the Second Sundering when the event was so selective in what returned, specially when the things that stayed required the active participation of entities way less powerful than Ao was during the ToT (like, worship-less Enlil making Tymanther to stay).
I also don't believe Ao cares at all for mortals, but that's my belief, lol. He seems to not even regard them at all in official materials (save for these weird Elminster novels), where he seems to care more for the gods.
I also like the idea that Ao didn't created Abeir, specially after we discovered that the geography doesn't match with what we know of ancient Toril. It makes me wonder why the orbits of Toril and Abeir intersect, tho...
Interested in discussing this MORE just because I think developing a story helps. That's what this is all about.
Here's kind of the way I see it.... we need bees .... so we care if bees are dying .... but in general, I'm not going around to make sure that noone kills a bee. If I can stop some fool from stomping a beehive without much effort... I will. Or, I might just let the bees sting the fool, because even though they are little... they can still make things hurt.
We are "bees" to Ao. We keep the world alive, pollinating things and making honey. In a not-so-great comparison, the gods are the "beekeepers" who get "honey"/"faith" from the "bees". Ao takes honey/faith from the gods, but he also harvests the "crops" that populate the world as a result of the bees efforts.
Now, how much control he may have had over the Spellplague/ Second Sundering... debatable... but once lands from Abeir have come INTO Toril... he may have had a lot more control for it leaving. Basically, I view the spellplague as much more "uncontrolled" to SOME degree... and the Second Sundering was much less invasive and controlled. So, he may have been fine with letting certain lands stay in Abeir.
Ao may have even empowered some "vestiges" that may have been getting restored on Abeir... i.e. for all we know, Enlil was being restored on Abeir. One of the things that I envision with the Planar Tear/"Shattered Night" thing is that some deities that supposedly "left" ..... may have been imprisoned as vestiges by someone like Gilgeam. Or in other words.... the story is told by the victors and may not be the truth.... so what's the true story about what happened to the Untheric gods that Gilgeam "kicked out" of Unther? Why did Gilgeam not let the body of the god Nergal get interred in Unther and instead made a tomb get created way off in the lands held by the Nar? For instance, was the manifestation of Gilgeam that went "bad" .... was he Gilgeam? Was there a being that was formerly entrapped as a vestige instead in control of his body? This idea of vestiges/planar tears/Shattered Night can open up a lot of story ideas. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 23 May 2024 23:03:09 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11729 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2024 : 22:55:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
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On the making of a weave... I don't mean "making Mystra in power and control"...
Oh, but by putting all of Mystra's subordinates in control, you're given her ALL the control, lol.
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I mean the "weave" in the form that its found on most other worlds... a place where regular magic can be used and the concept of a wizard may exist...
I don't know. I feel it's like allowing regular clerics to exist in Dark Sun. You change one of the key concepts of this world, and with it the feeling of the setting. Just like there are no clerics in Dark Sun, the idea is that Abeir has no wizards. And yeah, you're giving them "limitations" (thought, there is really no limitation when they can carry their power source to whatever place they go), but still changes the feeling of the setting IMO.
Yeah, that would mean that poor Big Name NPC wizard is going to be an ingredient on a dragon's dinner because the setting is against him, but the same would happen if Big Name NPC cleric goes to Athas, he is going to become a practice target for the Templars. That's their fault for going to places they are not supposed to be, lol
These "gods of magic" MAY have been helping to restore Mystra... or they may NOT have been doing so. I mean that on an individual basis. For instance, Deneir TECHNICALLY reports to Oghma... and Oghma wasn't in Abeir. Leira didn't TECHNICALLY report to anyone. Velsharoon definitely had proven that he was willing to seek power however he saw fit. Talos as Malyk (god of wild and destructive magics) actually opposed Mystra. Finder Wyvernspur as a god of bardic magic to a degree also didn't serve Mystra. Karsus had specifically tried to take her power. Now Azuth, Savras, and possibly Auppenser... these can possibly be seen as servants.
Now, I personally don't mind that idea of these gods helping to restore her enough to make magic a bit more stable (maybe not Talos/Malyk)... but technically THAT doesn't need to be detailed as these deities would have their own reasons to want mortals to have access to magic. Also... going back to that "Priests" dm's guild product.. a priest can "pray" at any idol valid for their pantheon .... so I can see these gods agreeing that "our weave anchors shall be available to all"... much like cell phone carriers allowing roaming. But possibly, if X gods weave anchor gets used, then X god gets faith energy.... so it behooves the gods themselves to get these weave anchors spread. Heck, for all we know, these gods were using Mystra's corpse to get things started and they "unintentionally" restore her enough that she can return to Toril... before they can turn on her and kill her again. Just a thought.
Now, regarding it making the world different... I have no defense here, but I also don't see a need. If one wants a world where spellcasters are less powerful, there are numerous things we CAN do... maybe the weave anchors are "faulty" ... maybe they "drain quickly"... maybe they can only support spells of certain levels based on the quality of the weave anchor. With the idea of the portable anchors/batteries, very much all of the above can be true (hell, Malyk may be offering "cheap" anchor/batteries that are prone to wild magic). The main thing though is to establish what we think are good ideas, and then bounce them about with others.... and that's what I think these discussions are helping with.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2454 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2024 : 03:45:23
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yes, Abeir is closed off... until the spellplague apparently. So, the idea is "city of Peleverai along with Pit of Maleficence beneath it" transfers to Abeir... and thereby DRAGS over this planar tear with it.
Abeir being isolated from the Outer Planes is still a thing by the time of the Second Sundering. After all, this element is a plot point of The Devil You Know: the reason Asmodeus couldn't find the staff of Azuth was because it was hidden on Abeir.
Btw, isn't Nergal dead in D&D lore? I remember he is one of the deities listed as "Dead" in On Hallowed Ground.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Interested in discussing this MORE just because I think developing a story helps. That's what this is all about.
Here's kind of the way I see it.... we need bees ....
Interesting analogy. It still leaves too much stuff in the air. Why Ao didn't did stuff to mitigate the death of so many bees in the SS? Sure, he may have not been in full control of the situation (though I really doubt it), but he could have mitigated things.
And I mean, mitigating damage in Toril, if we follow your idea of Ao suddenly caring about the mortals of Abeir, something he didn't did in like, millenia.
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Originally posted by sleyvas
Now, how much control he may have had over the Spellplague/ Second Sundering...
He had no control at all during the Spellplague, that's pretty obvious. And confirmed by the fact that he had to start (or take advantage of, if we follow your idea) the Second Sundering to "fix" all the damage done by the Spellplague.
As for the Second Sundering, the official lore is that he started it, so he may have been in full control. Even if we follow your idea that he didn't started the SS, he still used it to "fix" stuff in Toril and Abeir, which confirms he had a lot of control over this phenomenon.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Heck, for all we know, these gods were using Mystra's corpse to get things started and they "unintentionally" restore her enough that she can return to Toril...
A dreadful thought.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Now, regarding it making the world different... I have no defense here, but I also don't see a need. If one wants a world where spellcasters are less powerful,
My issue is not about the power of the spellcasters (there can be powerful sorcerers in Abeir following the standard lore), but more about the feeling of the setting. That's why I used Dark Sun as an example. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11729 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2024 : 20:10:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yes, Abeir is closed off... until the spellplague apparently. So, the idea is "city of Peleverai along with Pit of Maleficence beneath it" transfers to Abeir... and thereby DRAGS over this planar tear with it.
Abeir being isolated from the Outer Planes is still a thing by the time of the Second Sundering. After all, this element is a plot point of The Devil You Know: the reason Asmodeus couldn't find the staff of Azuth was because it was hidden on Abeir.
Btw, isn't Nergal dead in D&D lore? I remember he is one of the deities listed as "Dead" in On Hallowed Ground.
Ah... very much good point in that I didn't think about ALL the planar shifts. The abyss was no longer in the outer planes, but rather attaching to the elemental chaos... so the inner planes. So, that can explain demonic access to Abeir starting then. Still doesn't affect the idea of a planar tear in a city that transfers maintaining that access to shattered night (it would to the hells mind you or some other place still in the). To be clear, shattered night is intended to be "a nothing place"... the place where vestiges go (and many vestiges were deities). Its not inner plane. Its not outer plane. It MIGHT be far realm. It MIGHT be where Tharizdun is trapped. Its not a place that anyone understands how to travel to, and it seems to possess the "sentience" of beings that are gone... and if a binder provides his body/mind as a conduit to these vestiges, they may share his senses to once again "feel" the real world and "somewhat exist".
On Nergal being dead... depends on the setting, but he definitely is dead in FR pre-spellplague. But he was a manifestation in FR, not tied to the outer planes. His death in FR would have zero impact elsewhere, and his revival in FR could occur even if he were dead elsewhere. He definitely COULD be a vestige.
Some notes below on Nergal since you asked (from Lost Empires of faerun), in particular to note that Nergal wasn't buried in Unther like every other Untheric deity.... his body was sent way up north near Narfell, the Rawlinswood, Dun-Tharos, etc..... Now, WHY did Gilgeam specifically not bury THIS god in his homeland?
-1071 DR The orc god Gruumsh kills the Mulhorandi deity Ra in the first known deicide. The Untheric gods Inanna, Girru, Ki, Marduk, Nanna-Sin, Nergal, and Utu are also slain by orc deities.
THE STONE OF KEST
In the northern foothills of the Dragonsword Mountains stands a forgotten monument that was once known as the Stone of Kest. This obelisk stands better than 60 feet tall, and though it is somewhat weathered, the tale carved into its four surfaces is still legible. The Stone of Kest records the story of the Orcgate Wars—in particular, the roles of various Mulhorandi deities and the deaths of Untheric gods such as Nergal and Marduk. The stone is scribed in an archaic form of Mulhorandi rendered in hieroglyphs (Decipher Script DC 25).
GREAT BARROW
Just off the Great Road, near the southernmost portion of the Rawlinswood in the Great Dale, lies the Great Barrow, a massive burial mound ringed by numerous smaller mounds. The Great Barrow was built in the heady days of the First Untheric Empire as a tomb for the slain Untheric god Nergal. Gilgeam oversaw the god’s lavish burial and sealed Nergal’s still-living family and servants inside the lesser tombs surrounding that of the deity. Once all the tombs had been buried under earthen hills, Gilgeam slaughtered the builders, raised them as undead crypt things, and set them to guard Nergal and his family.
Travelers in the area of the Great Barrow often report encountering skeletal undead that choke and gasp as if desperately trying to breathe. Whether these creatures are Gilgeam’s appointed crypt-things or the restless undead remnants of Nergal’s family remains a mystery.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 29 May 2024 20:19:56 |
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What we know of Abeir ... to collect info
