| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
EltonRobb
Learned Scribe
USA
191 Posts |
 Posted - 29 May 2025 : 17:08:20
|
|
What do you feel about Kara-Tur? How do you feel about the Eastern Realms? Kara-Tur is certainly in the Realms right now. So, I was wondering if any of you ran campaigns in Kara-Tur?
|
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6388 Posts |
|
|
Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1252 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2025 : 20:18:47
|
| I’m not sure there’s been any updates except minor bits of info since 2e - literally a different century in both Toril and the real world. I’d love to but it’s basically just as relevant as a pure homebrew world at this point. Wish the creators would take a chance for once but we can barely get away from the Sword Coast. IMO even Maztica has a better chance. |
Follow the Maztica (Aztec/Maya) and Anchorome (Indigenous North America) Campaigns on DMsGuild!
The Maztica Campaign
The Anchorome Campaign |
 |
|
|
Azar
Master of Realmslore
1336 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2025 : 21:58:08
|
| It is an underappreciated setting bursting with wonderful Oriental flavor; there is much space presently left open-ended just waiting to be utilized. Sadly, both it and Al-Qadim likely won't be revisited...and for silly reasons to boot. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
|
|
|
EltonRobb
Learned Scribe
USA
191 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2025 : 22:51:14
|
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
It is an underappreciated setting bursting with wonderful Oriental flavor; there is much space presently left open-ended just waiting to be utilized. Sadly, both it and Al-Qadim likely won't be revisited...and for silly reasons to boot.
Yes, Wizards is being silly. There was a lot they could do with Kara-tur. |
|
|
|
Azar
Master of Realmslore
1336 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2025 : 23:57:05
|
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
the Sword Coast.
It has been commercialized. Tamed. Gelded. What was supposed to be the "fantasy Wild West" of Faerun has become utterly predictable as a fantasy theme park.
To me, the best version of that region is pre-3e (then again, that goes for most if not all of The Realms  ): scarcely detailed outside of the few watering holes safe for civilized beings.
quote:
Originally posted by EltonRobb
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
It is an underappreciated setting bursting with wonderful Oriental flavor; there is much space presently left open-ended just waiting to be utilized. Sadly, both it and Al-Qadim likely won't be revisited...and for silly reasons to boot.
Yes, Wizards is being silly. There was a lot they could do with Kara-tur.
It's an unfortunate side effect of capitulating to the insane and the terminally offended. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12057 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2025 : 00:07:58
|
Like many things... when it came out, I didn't have the money to buy it. Since then, I've had a little time to look over the main campaign setting. Unfortunately, time is the issue. But in looking it over, there were tidbits I looked into that were interesting in hindsight based on things that came later (i.e. they weren't interesting too much to me UNLESS you combine it with ideas that come later). For instance, Wa as a nation that's tied to spelljamming and developing its own secretive set of spelljammers becomes really interesting if you also combine the story with the fact that there's an island near them with giant vegetation (such that giant bamboo could be hulls for space vessels aka tsunamis) and sticking secret spelljamming facilities on said island.
There is a LOT more spelljamming involvement with that side of the continent. You also have the "ancient ones" that showed up a thousand years ago in Malatra. You also have scro (oscray.... which is kind of pig latin of scro since scr is technically a "consonant cluster"... which may have been a joke since orcs were seen as pig faced at that time I believe) landing there. Then of course Wa and Shou Lung.
I remember talking to ... I think BadCatMan about an idea a couple years back where people might subjectively see the world differently in Kara-Tur based on religious belief. Basically, the land there does NOT touch the astral, but instead the spirit world. Their whole idea of the gods seems to be one of the gods are in the heavens above them. So, with the whole idea of spelljamming, it might have revolved around flying to heaven for them. They may have even seen the moon differently, etc... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 30 May 2025 00:26:47 |
|
|
|
EltonRobb
Learned Scribe
USA
191 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2025 : 17:07:50
|
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
It's an unfortunate side effect of capitulating to the insane and the terminally offended.
I hear you on that. Sleyvas seems to see the potential in Kara-Tur, if it was properly developed. |
Edited by - EltonRobb on 30 May 2025 17:09:49 |
|
|
|
TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
990 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2025 : 03:48:27
|
| It is totally redeem-able and it also includes a fair bit of poorly written, imagined, and in the rereading clearly offensive (albeit unintentionally) bits. There's a reason Ed didn't want real-world echoes in the Realms and Kara-Tur is evidence of just that. All that said, I stand by the first part of my comment, its fixable, but it would be a fair bit of work. |
|
|
|
Azar
Master of Realmslore
1336 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2025 : 04:14:11
|
| No more offensive than generic European (mish-mashed) fantasy. People in search of grievances will never be disappointed and people who cannot separate reality from fantasy (or vice versa) likely have deeper problems than gross exaggerations of a tabletop gaming setting nearly forty years old. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
|
|
|
EltonRobb
Learned Scribe
USA
191 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2025 : 15:25:38
|
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
No more offensive than generic European (mish-mashed) fantasy. People in search of grievances will never be disappointed and people who cannot separate reality from fantasy (or vice versa) likely have deeper problems than gross exaggerations of a tabletop gaming setting nearly forty years old.
I agree. People who can't separate fantasy from reality have deeper psychological problems. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36899 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2025 : 18:08:11
|
| I'd like us to step away from this current line of discussion. Just because one person doesn't see an issue with something doesn't mean that someone who does have issue with it is looking for reasons to be upset or that they've got psychological problems. And assuming that any dissenting viewpoints stem purely from those reasons and nothing else is an issue in and of itself. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
199 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2025 : 21:59:32
|
It's also worth noting that the Tian Xia "Asian" continent on Golarion in Pathfinder was likewise seen as somewhat problematic in its original presentation and for Pathfinder 2 they called in a large writing team, including some of Asian heritage, to fix the setting, which they did at length, and has been very well-received.
The problems with Kara-Tur also include just finding large chunks of it incredibly dull: the Tibet-alike country is called "Tabot," the Korea-like country is called "Koryo." Some originality there would go a long way. But, on the other hand, a lot of fantasy Asia analogues wouldn't even bother to include Tibet or Korea, they'd just have China and maybe Japan and call it a day. Kara-Tur also has South-East Asia (including building the Kuong Kingdom up as a sort of super-Cambodia, about to invade T'u Lung and cause mayhem, but they never revisited that idea), the Malatra Plateau for a Lost World vibe, and places like Ra-Khati and Khazari up in the mountains, plus Toril's highest mountain (Cloudpeak) and the Yehimal as a Himalaya analogue. They even had a Taiwan-like island, though they seemed to realise in 1988 they might be best-served not going there, and left it undetailed. |
Edited by - Werthead on 01 Jun 2025 22:04:59 |
|
|
|
Azar
Master of Realmslore
1336 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2025 : 23:37:30
|
If the supposed issue - in the broad strokes - is "elements which strongly resemble the real world", then I have bad news for these particular Realms purists, because there's more than just Kara-Tur, Maztica and Zakhar that clashes with this desired vision. Other regions include Calimshan (Arabia and The Ottoman Empire), the Bedine (the Bedouin), The Moonshaes (Celtic plus Nordic), Mulhorand (Egyptian), Unther (Sumer and Babylonia), The North/The Savage Frontier (Viking with the occasional Amerindian touch), Cormyr (Arthurian England/Albion), The Hordelands (Mongolia/Central Asia), et cetera. There are also deities from real-world cultures, such as Loviatar, Mielikki, Oghma, Silvanus and Tyr. Those examples are just the ones that came to mind; no doubt, one could comb officially-published Forgotten Realms works to find lesser-known instances of fiction resembling reality.
quote:
Originally posted by Werthead
It's also worth noting that the Tian Xia "Asian" continent on Golarion in Pathfinder was likewise seen as somewhat problematic in its original presentation and for Pathfinder 2 they called in a large writing team, including some of Asian heritage, to fix the setting, which they did at length, and has been very well-received.
These settings are "x-inspired"; they are not historical or geographical lessons. There is no obligation to reality. People who desire to learn about the real world should take a credited class or study verified sources. The implication that a work of escapism needs to be given the green light by people who happen to possess the right phenotypical makeup is dreadful; the end result is further homogeneity/lack of creativity (which would have existed through myriad small divergences).
Furthermore, there is something unique about outside culture influences viewed through a local lens. Consider the The Legend of Zelda series or the Dark Souls series of video games; both are strongly Western-based fantasy interpreted by the Japanese. If either one had been worked on by "native consultants", the feel of the experience changes. If either had been developed by a United States or Western European studio, the feel - once again - changes. Something is lost. I don't want to see similar creations prohibited or inhibited because some people think game development needs to be approved by a nebulous committee...self-appointed arbiters of what is correct. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12057 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2025 : 23:55:44
|
So, if we did want to do the idea discussed above (that the people of Kara-Tur believe the gods are in the heavens, and when they look up they see the flying palace of the Celestial Emperor as something that they conceivably can reach <it might be a dot mind you>, but that someone from Faerun coming over would NOT see the same thing when looking up.... what would be the best way to implement this?
I know previously when we had discussed this a few years back, one of the things I brought up was the the Shou Lung dragon ships might LOOK to them as though it were infused with the spirit of a dragon (but to outsiders, it LOOKS like a carved piece of wood that's in the shape of a dragon). I know this is a bit of a change from established lore, but perhaps this is something that culturally they've done... coercing a dragon's spirit to bond with a ship and possibly empower a helm in the doing (similr to how the people of created Ki helms that would be powered by monks, etc.... I find this idea better than "the Shou Lung emperor was negotiating with the mercane for helms". However, if one wanted to involve the mercane.... perhaps they were bringing in a special "spirit wood" that the ships would have to use for the prow, so that the dragon can bond with that. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36899 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2025 : 01:20:21
|
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I know previously when we had discussed this a few years back, one of the things I brought up was the the Shou Lung dragon ships might LOOK to them as though it were infused with the spirit of a dragon (but to outsiders, it LOOKS like a carved piece of wood that's in the shape of a dragon). I know this is a bit of a change from established lore, but perhaps this is something that culturally they've done... coercing a dragon's spirit to bond with a ship and possibly empower a helm in the doing (similr to how the people of created Ki helms that would be powered by monks, etc.... I find this idea better than "the Shou Lung emperor was negotiating with the mercane for helms". However, if one wanted to involve the mercane.... perhaps they were bringing in a special "spirit wood" that the ships would have to use for the prow, so that the dragon can bond with that.
I like this idea! |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6388 Posts |
|
| |
Topic |
|
Kara-Tur, the Eastern Realms
