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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12074 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Jun 2025 : 17:24:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
I don't think the hordelands was really present in the ancient past.
I think most of it was underwater during creator race time when the world was warmer. It would explain why there are no creator race ruins and even no ancient dwarf ruins from when they arrived in the yehimals.
I could be wrong but I think the endless wastes came about around -20000 to -10000 dr.
Or whatever ruins there were there are "not documented" or "destroyed by a cataclysm" and may be in areas noone wants to go to because of the endless wastelands. With the vast amount of sand in some areas, some could literally be buried. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6396 Posts |
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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
203 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2025 : 22:16:04
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Grand History of the Realms has a map of Toril in 31,500 BDR and it confirms that Taan/the Endless Waste is in existence at that time, when Faerun, Kara-Tur, Zakhara, Maztica and Katashaka are all unified into the supercontinent Merrouroboros. The Endless Ice Sea, Taan and Yehimal are more or less as they are later on (excepting that this map uses 3E as its base, so everything is a bit more squashed than it was in later times).
One of the oddities of this map is that it shows a vast amount of land immediately to the east of Zakhara, greatly extending the continent. I assumed this is massive, low-lying marshy land (similar to the Doggerland of the North Sea, that used to link Britain to Europe) that very quickly fell under the sea in the First Sundering.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12074 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2025 : 03:37:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Werthead
Grand History of the Realms has a map of Toril in 31,500 BDR and it confirms that Taan/the Endless Waste is in existence at that time, when Faerun, Kara-Tur, Zakhara, Maztica and Katashaka are all unified into the supercontinent Merrouroboros. The Endless Ice Sea, Taan and Yehimal are more or less as they are later on (excepting that this map uses 3E as its base, so everything is a bit more squashed than it was in later times).
One of the oddities of this map is that it shows a vast amount of land immediately to the east of Zakhara, greatly extending the continent. I assumed this is massive, low-lying marshy land (similar to the Doggerland of the North Sea, that used to link Britain to Europe) that very quickly fell under the sea in the First Sundering.
That map is so subjective based on everyone that looks at it unfortunately. For instance, I look at it and see a huge area under water that I would call the endless wastes, the plain of horses, and the quoya desert. Then when I wonder what happened, part of me goes "tearfall happened, and maybe all that water drained further into the interior and uncovered the endless wastes via the rivers shown.
It also looks to me like we see right up to the very edge of Zakhara's coastline on the east (mind you it doesn't LOOK like a coastline, but the line seems to be right around where if you scrolled just a little east you'd maybe start to see the Segara Sea), but in the south it shows some land that is now covered in water with islands. Of course, all of Zakhara also looks like a non-desert too. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6396 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12074 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2025 : 13:05:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
I got the impression the world was warmer 30,000 years ago. Certainly there was a lot more jungle land, I think anauroch was jungle If I remember rightly.
If that's the case then no tearfall needed for the endless wastes to be underwater (the quoya desert didn't exist until recently (sometime after 0 DR, I forget the exact date).
Zakhara having an extended bit of land to the south is interesting as I'm fairly certain that there was an asteroid strike in the central southern portion that lifted the western half of the continental shelf upwards while sinking the southern portion.
Zakhara was, as far as I can tell, not a desert for a very long time. The western portion desertified long ago (probably when the continental shelf was pushed up). The Eastern part desertified much more recently when a kraken started draining all the water into the underdark.
See what I mean, everyone's view of that map is subjective. It doesn't mean anyone is wrong mind you because A) the map is high level B) the map was pre-first sundering, pre-elven sundering, and pre-probably several other cataclysmic events. Hell for all we know, vast portions of that part of the continent could have left the world, new land masses imported in, because when it comes to magic a lot can happen that falls outside our scientifically bounded minds.
That being said, there's enough references to asteroid strikes in Al-Qadim products to make one think that just like central Faerun, portions of Zakhara probably got hit too. Like you, I think there may be something to the idea of the "High Desert" being a lifted area of land. But I look at it as "The golden Gulf sank". Similar may have happened in the southeastern portion of the crowded sea, effectively creating all the islands. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
203 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2025 : 13:57:46
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The coast of the Great Ice Sea is exactly the same as in 1-2E, it's just the 3E squishing effect (you can partially see on the present-day 3E maps) that makes the Endless Waste look different to its immediate south. The map also has the Yehimal in a weird place, coming right up to the Great Ice Sea without the large gap in the modern period, but it's the entire range moved further north (you can check its latitudes with other features versus 1-2E), not the Great Ice Sea that's moved further south. If you look at the base maps in the original pre-book-version Grand History of the Realms (which use 2E rather than 3E as a base), it's clear the coastlines are more or less in the same place for the Great Ice Sea, Endless Waste etc.
Overlaying the 2E maps of Zakhara over the Grand History one (Zakhara is not squished in the 3E-ising of the maps, presumably as there was no reason to as Zakhara was not a 3E setting) reveals a massive amount of land extending eastwards and south, completely covering the Segara Sea and joining Zakhara to SW Kara-Tur with no interruption. This was my results of de-3E-ifying the map and incorporating the Grand History changes. |
Edited by - Werthead on 08 Jun 2025 13:58:55 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6396 Posts |
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Kara-Tur, the Eastern Realms
