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Mordriel
Acolyte
8 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Jun 2025 : 19:16:21
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Hello,
I am considering Cormyr's past. It was called the Forest Kingdom/Country, or the Lithtlorn/ Wolf Woods before that.
What different States/Principalities/Counties occupied the land that "contemporary" (14th/15th century) Cormyr consists of?
I am mainly interested in the various elven partitions of the forest, in the distant past- as back as Arcorar, as well as after the formation of Cormanthyr. It is implied in various sources that what elven states were within that area, where vassals or dependencies of Cormanthyr.
I know of Orva being there, but that was mostly situated where the Vast Swamp is. What about the rest of the Forest Kingdom's expanse?
Was Elfhold/Elfmount (in the Hullack Forest) part of an Elven state?
The houses of Amaratharr, Nelnueve and Keone are mentioned as elven noble houses of Cormyr's distant past. Are there any particular areas or political formations these houses were part of?
Are there any other elven noble houses related to that particular geographical region?
Thank you in advance
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AJA
Senior Scribe
USA
801 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2025 : 08:15:47
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Hello Mordriel,
Given the references you've mentioned, I'm pretty sure you've been thorough in your research. So unless any other sages come through with a scroll or two from the archives, either Ed or Brian Cortijo would be your next best bet for such information, with asking Ed via Twitter or Patreon probably the "best" route for an answer (Brian does answer a Cormyr question or two on Ed's Discord from time to time, but he's not so public facing like Ed, so I can't recommend to @ him; maybe put your queries in the #Cormyr channel and see if there's any response).
If you're asking specifically about the region during the age of Cormanthyr you might also try asking Steven Schend through the Discord, though he would probably defer any answer to Ed or Brian as well.
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AJA
YAFRP
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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
203 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2025 : 22:45:17
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The only information we really have is in Cormyr: A Novel, which was co-written by Ed Greenwood, and then in Steven Schend's Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves, which does not dwell overtly on the Cormyr region.
The suggestion seems to be that in very ancient times, the Cormyr area was very wild and not settled by elven civilisation in the same way as the rest of the Arcorar. That to me hints it may have been left for wild/wood elf tribal groupings who did not want to settle in cities like Cormanthor (and later Myth Drannor). The Netheril maps indicate the Stonelands and Goblin Marches may have formed and been cleared by the founding of Netheril (not long after the founding of Cormanthyr itself), which would have started the process of severing Cormir from the rest of Cormanthyr, with any contiguous forest cover instead extending east through what is now Sembia.
My personal headcanon is that the plummeting Netherese skyholds which formed Sembia's indented coast may have also triggered massive forest fires that separated Cormir from the remainder of Cormanthyr. Civilised elves likely chose to relocate to Cormanthyr proper, leaving Cormir vulnerable to the depredations of the Purple Dragon and then to dwindle until its ceding to the humans of Cormyr a couple of centuries later made sense. |
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JonConley
Acolyte
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2025 : 04:58:02
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In elven times, Arcorar wasn’t one single elven kingdom but rather a vast woodland with semi-independent elven realms, sometimes vassals to larger powers like Aryvandaar or Cormanthyr.
Regions within Arcorar were a small elven realm, likely under Cormanthyr’s influence during its peak.
Some ancient elven portals, ruins, and mythals still exist in King’s Forest, Hullack, and Stormhorns — suggesting broader elven presence. |
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Mordriel
Acolyte
8 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2025 : 09:07:41
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quote:
Originally posted by AJA
Hello Mordriel,
Given the references you've mentioned, I'm pretty sure you've been thorough in your research. So unless any other sages come through with a scroll or two from the archives, either Ed or Brian Cortijo would be your next best bet for such information, with asking Ed via Twitter or Patreon probably the "best" route for an answer (Brian does answer a Cormyr question or two on Ed's Discord from time to time, but he's not so public facing like Ed, so I can't recommend to @ him; maybe put your queries in the #Cormyr channel and see if there's any response).
If you're asking specifically about the region during the age of Cormanthyr you might also try asking Steven Schend through the Discord, though he would probably defer any answer to Ed or Brian as well.
Alright, I've given the Discord affair a try, didn't really attract any attention to my plight.
So, I must proceed with what I have at hand. That is, and as you friendly sages put it, a rather not settled- and rather unsettled, back then- region of forest in what is "now" Cormyr. So that might mean, there were no clear political formations/partitions of the woodlands, other than Orva, perhaps?
I've been giving it some thought. I think the northern Stonelands are already dotted with Netherese remains. If there is something from the elven past, it is deeply buried.
Now, the Sylvan area was more likely under the guidance of Druids, rather than elven princes (you put the titles here) and elven high mages. Such a druidic tradition has probably been carried over to the specks of forest that remain still. Sooo... will give it a druidic circle to "run" the land- or at least, try- I suppose.
And if supposedly this land abounds with wildlife, even some Lythari might be around, as well. Come to think of it, a 3.x FR supplement mentions a weresmthg of a half elf that is the last (??) descendant of house Amaratharr. Perhaps there is a twisted continuity implied if I use that connection. (lythari have nothing to do with werebeasts, but some evil deities are insidious and corrupting, aren't they. Malar comes to mind.)
It is also suggested that these lands might be hunting grounds for the more privileged elven families/houses. Tensions might lead to some strife, between hunting parties from the Cormanthyr/Ancorar/Uvaeren/Shemberholme/Jhyrennstar proper, coming over to have a good time in the Wolf Woods, and the local pure nature lovers. So the nobles might need safe houses or towers or whatnot, to make do (More ruins for me). Hunting could be a very expensive sport, these days- but then again, they could most certainly afford it.
Anybody has any ideas to help me shape the land? |
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win01
Acolyte
1 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2025 : 13:38:27
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| Have you tried to connect the history of elf houses like Amaratharr or Keone to major events like the Crown Wars or the founding of Myth Drannor? I wonder if it's possible that some elven nobles were instrumental in shaping the ancient borders of what would become Cormyr? |
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Mordriel
Acolyte
8 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2025 : 08:34:20
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I have had some difficulty finding any families of elves, let alone, noble houses located within the Forest Country.
So far, there are the Amarantharr elves, of some distinction -such as it is, there is scarce evidence here and there, of their deeds.
There is an underlying notion that the Amarantharrs were created, ennobled and enfiefed by the Coronals of Cormanthyr for some unknown deeds.
The families/clans of Nelnueve and Keone appear in some numbers within the Lythtlorn forest.
quote:
Originally posted by win01
Have you tried to connect the history of elf houses like Amaratharr or Keone to major events like the Crown Wars or the founding of Myth Drannor? I wonder if it's possible that some elven nobles were instrumental in shaping the ancient borders of what would become Cormyr?
So there is Ilyphar Nelnueve, a.k.a the lord of scepters, who defeated Thauglor in a duel of honour (Feint of Honour) and the elves laid claim (!) to the Forest Country- around -205 DR, that is. So they did not control it for some time, I suppose... So apparently that Dragon, along with its kin and followers, was ruling over a significant part of that forest- called the Land of the Purple Dragon since at least -400DR.
The thing about Ilyphar though is that he is referenced as “Lord of Scepters of House Amaratharr” -so he was either a part of their retinue -a court mage?-, or, more likely, a part of the family.
A few years later (for the elves, at least) that same Ilyphar handed the Forest Country to the humans, as he, "in the Year of Opening Doors, 26 DR, brought his elven court (!) to the settlement of Suzail and organized the coronation of Faerlthann Obarskyr, the first king of Cormyr". Had he perhaps become the head of the Amaratharr family by then? We can only speculate.
So I believe that elf almost single-handedly shaped the form of "modern" Cormyr, by his actions. Well, it can't be that simple.
He had an elven court, according to sources- albeit, we know nothing of them.
Around these times, there was an elven wizard called Lorelei Alavara -her intended,Thatoryl Elian, an elf hunter, was murdered by one Andar Obarskyr, initiating a long standing blood feud between (some) elves and the Obarskyrs, and after a point, humans in general. I will not elaborate on her actions, they are rather well known.
There are several (at least six or seven?) of her followers, close friends, and relatives of Thatoryl, mentioned in the adventure “Into the Dragon’s Lair”- I will not bring them up here since most are only referred by their first names and a minimal background, giving us nothing further to promote our search into the obscure elven families of Lythtlorn we seek.
Of the few ones that do have some background, other than, being friends cousins or paramours, is a certain Shaundryl Berethryl who appears in a dragon magazine article. He is an ancient elven warlord with no fondness for humans in his elven heart, perhaps situated in Hullack Forest.
That pretty much sums up what I could find on the elves of the future Cormyte region.
There is a vast period of time during which we know nothing of the events in the Forest Country- say, by -10000 up to -400 DR?
So, I cannot begin to imagine what these elven houses/ families had done during the Crown Wars, or if they even existed back then- some thousands of years further back. The Lythtlorn is somewhat off east the fields of the major events of the Crown Wars, involving the great kingdoms of the West. There was one gigantic battle though , the Battle of the Gods' Theater which took place where the Tunlands are located, to the immediate west of Cormyr. That is, close by.
Perhaps some of the Sages have further information or insight to share on the subject?
Any help is greatly appreciated. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6399 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2025 : 10:24:57
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So if you look at GHoTR, the first mention of anything Cormanthor or Arcorar related is in -10,000 DR when the Seldarine personally summon elves to the site of the elven court.
Despite being a massive forest, not too far (relatively speaking, especially since Illythiir and Aryvandaar were able to make war upon one another) away from other elven lands there is absolutely no evidence of any elven settlement existing (not even a solitary wild elf clan) in this forest.
Something that some may find curious.
We have known dragon occupation in the region, but dragons have a tendency to ignore forest or in some cases burn them down (to remove the pesky elvish inhabitants as they like to hide in forests).
One can assume that since some time shortly after the arrival of dragons it was regarded as part of the territory of one or more dragon overlords, but the forests themselves were largely ignored. I'm going to guess at some faerie occupation here, possible a link to a fairy court.
And then we have the arrival of the elves.
You will note that Nalavara and her consort were described as hunters i believe and i vaguely recall mention of clans. That language implies a wild elf (later possibly wood elf) lineage. Cormanthor was noted as having many allied wild / wood elf clans that did not live in the cities but were nominally part of the realm (likely ruling themselves in clan family units but obeying the wider law of the realm).
Iliphar is an oddity. We have no known elvish kingdoms and only a few isolated holdings in Cormyr's ancient past. The Lythtlorn was also considered part of the wider Arcorar forest and i think it could be considered a vassal state of Cormanthor. Which would make Iliphar a ruler in name and title only, probably existing to act as an intermediary between the clearly wild and xenophobic wild elf clans of the wolf woods and the more civilised gold and moon elves of Cormanthor / Myth Drannor.
Just my thoughts, i could be wrong here. Oh and Orva has been dealt with by George Krashos, a very minor elven presence overall, no real jurisdiction over anywhere but the swamp, and generally keeping to itself for various reasons. |
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Cormyr's distant past
