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EltonRobb
Learned Scribe
USA
216 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Jul 2025 : 22:41:15
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Okay, I'm really digging into Al-Qadim lately. Zakhara is a continent that looks open for expansion! The Middle Eastern culture of Zakhara is something I'm looking into. It's too bad it wasn't redeveloped for 3e, though.
What do you think about Al-Qadim? Did you think it was cool to adventure in?
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1366 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2025 : 23:29:43
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| I enjoy its thoroughly unapologetic nature: D&D meets 1001 Arabian Nights. We would never see Al-Qadim in this day and age. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12147 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2025 : 01:11:25
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I will say I only REALLY learned of Al-Qadim as the campaign setting in depth AFTER it had fallen by the wayside. I didn't buy the material at the time, because I didn't have the money. But looking back, the lore is wonderful, but needs further development. There are some tropes that are just a little overdone (by that I mean monsters that were created that were just a rinse/reuse that didn't need to be done or that basically got repeated throughout the various monsters they introduced.... all that to say they could have reduced the number of creatures by simply combining some as they were so similar... but it was 2e and they were putting out monster splat books left and right).
The area definitely could use a bit of a dig into the history of the region, by that I mean if someone with the love enough to do it right would sit down and try to develop something akin to the GHotR for the region to go into the various fallen empires, etc... it could really turn it into a shiny gem. However, it doesn't really need that to be a viable game resource... it just would be a fun thing to try and develop this history and then possibly synch it up with the rest of the world. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1366 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6430 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12147 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2025 : 15:23:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
giants founded lands in alqadim, they likely brought the genies, and fought off the dragons, but the when is important.
I think we're in agreement with this statement. I think giants founded lands down there. I think giants brought in/enslaved genies in the form of tasked genies more than likely. I think ultimately geniekind turned on the giants... but not in a rise up rebellion.... more the way genies would do it.... twisting wishing, laying curses, instituting magical diseases, bringing in other people to fight for them, etc....
Also, agreed on at one time I would have loved to have explored and developed this timeline. One day I may get that fire in me again. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6430 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12147 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2025 : 18:00:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
That is the crucial point, what happened to the giants. And depending upon future reveals ultimately determines the answer.
Once it happens I'm ready to go on looking at alqadim again, but there is no point in it for me until I have that bit of information about the giants
There are some definite hints that the fey could have been involved as well (and by fey, I'm not talking elves, brownies, etc... I'm talking more along the lines of hags and possibly something akin to what happened with certain giants turning horribly ugly, etc... like the Fomorians and the cyclops that we see in 4e that live below the earth with the fomorians could easily be the "island giants" or even "ogre giants" of Zakhara and that would make sense).
I know somewhere we got more of the history of the yak men as well and something of how they got involved with earth elementals/dao. But I think it would be a worthwhile delve to make a history of that... that giants may have been enslaving dao or other earth elemental beings, and maybe at some point the yak men helped free them in return for being owed their support on occasion. It could be a really interesting thing to develop this history, where the yak men may have just been some form of basically minotaurs who learned how to contact the "forgotten god"... who could be someone like Tharizdun or Ghaunadaur .... possibly even twisting or developing their magical casting into other forms like that of warlocks or binders instead of priestly casting (these concepts coming AFTER 2e was over). For instance, if they were like binders, who "host" another spirit within their bodies, it could very easily fit with them projecting their own spirit into another being's body via their magic jar ability. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2497 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2025 : 21:47:36
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I know somewhere we got more of the history of the yak men as well and something of how they got involved with earth elementals/dao.
Well, it’s an ancient story.
But the relatively common knowledge is that their Faceless God defeated the Great Khan of the dao and won a concession. So the dao must serve the yikaria and not attack them under any circumstances, for a thousand years and a year. The details like nature of the contest (from a fight to gambling) and exact date are not clear.
To line it up with other yikaria related incidents, less than 1001 year in the "current" era of AD&D2 (late 1300s) means it happened long after the fall of Netheril (-339). The war at Galuil Mountains in Mortal Consequences (discussed further in that thread) was before the fall of Netheril (and maybe for some time after). |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 13 Jul 2025 23:57:41 |
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EltonRobb
Learned Scribe
USA
216 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2025 : 17:50:50
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I know somewhere we got more of the history of the yak men as well and something of how they got involved with earth elementals/dao.
Well, it’s an ancient story.
But the relatively common knowledge is that their Faceless God defeated the Great Khan of the dao and won a concession. So the dao must serve the yikaria and not attack them under any circumstances, for a thousand years and a year. The details like nature of the contest (from a fight to gambling) and exact date are not clear.
To line it up with other yikaria related incidents, less than 1001 year in the "current" era of AD&D2 (late 1300s) means it happened long after the fall of Netheril (-339). The war at Galuil Mountains in Mortal Consequences (discussed further in that thread) was before the fall of Netheril (and maybe for some time after).
That is certainly helpful. Although matching Zakhara's timeline to that of Faerun would take a lot of work, right? |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6430 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2025 : 19:24:30
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Depends upon how in depth you want to go.
We have various broad touch points, some of which are already identified.
The arrival of giants and genies, which has some fairly obvious links with Faerunian history, but unfortunately they may be correct.
The falling meteors, with an obvious link to Faerunian history
The arrival of humanity, we have a rough date for this in powers and pantheons, although it may only apply to the far north east (Ruined Kingdoms) of Zakhara and the Utter East.
crossovers with Calimshan (possibly linked to Calim who may have had a presence in Zakhara), and Anauroch (portals), and Raurin (genies and bedine in Raurin post Imaskar's fall)
The bloodforges which have already been plotted on the timeline in Grand History of the Realms.
After that you are looking at tiny details and snippets that may not appear obvious, such as the arrival of outcast deities from Unther (driven out by Gilgeam), trade links and piracy links with Calimshan. I'm sure there are many more events but it would take a lot of delving to find them |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
1011 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2025 : 22:46:03
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| There are a few Al Qadim references in the Grand History IIRC that could help align the timelines. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12147 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2025 : 23:06:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Depends upon how in depth you want to go.
We have various broad touch points, some of which are already identified.
The arrival of giants and genies, which has some fairly obvious links with Faerunian history, but unfortunately they may be correct.
The falling meteors, with an obvious link to Faerunian history
The arrival of humanity, we have a rough date for this in powers and pantheons, although it may only apply to the far north east (Ruined Kingdoms) of Zakhara and the Utter East.
crossovers with Calimshan (possibly linked to Calim who may have had a presence in Zakhara), and Anauroch (portals), and Raurin (genies and bedine in Raurin post Imaskar's fall)
The bloodforges which have already been plotted on the timeline in Grand History of the Realms.
After that you are looking at tiny details and snippets that may not appear obvious, such as the arrival of outcast deities from Unther (driven out by Gilgeam), trade links and piracy links with Calimshan. I'm sure there are many more events but it would take a lot of delving to find them
There's the earth elementalist cult (The Geomancers I believe they were called). There's also the "New Dynasty of the Necromancer Kings".... which implies there was an "Old Dynasty of the Necromancer Kings". There's the Kingdoms of Nog and Kadar that fell in the past. Just listing these as things that would be decent enough in importance to include in some past history and put some details to them over time as well. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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EltonRobb
Learned Scribe
USA
216 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2025 : 23:11:20
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quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
There are a few Al Qadim references in the Grand History IIRC that could help align the timelines.
Ah. I have that.  |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12147 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2025 : 23:01:54
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quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
There are a few Al Qadim references in the Grand History IIRC that could help align the timelines.
Offhand, besides the ones in the Utter East, can you think of any in particular? No big deal if you can't just its been a LONG time since I've delved every entry in there, and even then I mainly was skimming them. I do love the book though, because you are right, it is full of treasures. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
1011 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2025 : 16:45:56
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| There are mentions in -35,000; -16,000; 657; 1099; and 1373, though they aren't very detailed. There may be one or two more under more specific names. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12147 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2025 : 15:41:03
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Thanks. the one in -35000 does put a bit more definitive of where Zakhara came from. I had forgotten the exact wording. That being said, everything is always uncertain when you go back that far. I will note, it does NOT specify Anchorome (or the continent southeast of Zakhara) in that list, but there's that whole thing of Ed calling Anchorome something else.. people combining Maztica and "Anchorome" as the same place, which is why I've taken to calling the big area "The land Faerunians call Anchorome".
Sadly, none of these help much with matching the timeline though.
In this ancient time before The Sundering, the lands which would one day be identified as Faerûn, Kara-Tur, Maztica, and Zakhara were each but one part of a much larger super-continent named Merrouroboros. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6430 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2025 : 16:16:14
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If Zakhara was attached to southern Faerun, that would put the Haunted Lands linked to Dambrath, Luiren, Estagund. While the High Desert would be linked to Halruaa.
Now there are multiple stories about meteor strikes and the geography of zakhara looks to have clearly been smacked by a meteor or two, causing many geological disturbances, one of which i theorised was the raising of the High Desert, which stands on a plateau about 2,500 ft above sea level (while the pit of ghuls - where one meteor may have struck - is 1000 ft below sea level). The highest mountains in the High Desert are about 5,000 ft above sea level.
Halruaa however has mountain ranges that can reach a towering 20,000 ft.
The land simply doesnt line up in elevation at all. Unless the Sundering caused a huge subduction of the tectonic plate that Zakhara sits on (literally sucking the whole continent down beneath another). And then the later meteor strike would smash that plate right in the centre in the Golden Gulf, causing the northern half to rise up, while the southern half (where the subduction is occuring) sank even further.
Its the only thing i can think of that makes sense geologically. |
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EltonRobb
Learned Scribe
USA
216 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2025 : 17:18:49
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| I wonder what would happen if you thought about it from an Electric Universe perspective? Hmm. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6430 Posts |
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EltonRobb
Learned Scribe
USA
216 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2025 : 19:45:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Electric universe?
Yes, the Electric Universe. We happen to live in an Electric Universe. Basically, there are magnetic fields in space, and only electric currents produce magnetic fields.
For Forgotten Realms, Abeir-Toril will exist in our universe and will be created by a Z-pinch in an interstellar electric current, called a Birkeland Current. Not only that, but Toril's Sun will be created in the same manner, a z-pinch effect in an electric current.
It's cutting edge science, really. The electric universe theory is easier to understand than general and special relativity. Although you do need some background in Electrical Engineering to grasp the technical parts of the theory, the theory in a nutshell is easy for anyone to grasp. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4227 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2025 : 20:01:00
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| Yes...what does that have to do with this topic though? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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EltonRobb
Learned Scribe
USA
216 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2025 : 20:11:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Yes...what does that have to do with this topic though?
Our Earth's continents were formed by close encounters with another planetary body. As far as I understand it, this was because Mars had a lot of it's crust mined away by close encounters with Venus.
Talking about Zakhara's formation as a process of Plate Tectonics is fine, but not correct. Another planetary body came into close contact with Toril, and electrically mined away most of the crust of Toril (just like what happened to Earth and Mars). Although there was a super continent on Abeir-Toril, most of the crust was electrically mined away -- Based on the continents that are left, I would say about 70% of toril's original crust became asteroids.
Zakhara and the other continents weren't formed by Plate Tectonics according to EU theory and observation of what happened to Mars. Plate Tectonics is a good theory, just not correct based on observations on what happened to Mars. |
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Delnyn
Master of Realmslore
USA
1060 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2025 : 21:36:07
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Elton, did you consider gravity? Also, the solar system 4.5 billion years ago had a whole lot more relatively massive objects with wildly eccentric orbits. If Mars were strip-mined, Jupiter would be a more likely culprit than Venus.
EDIT: I am aware of meteorites on Earth that possibly came from Mars. Maybe, but I would postulate the solar system was far more crowded and chaotic billions of years ago and most collisions could easily be some totally different objects. |
Edited by - Delnyn on 18 Jul 2025 21:45:08 |
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Delnyn
Master of Realmslore
USA
1060 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2025 : 21:50:50
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| I would also account for the 1. end of the Shadow Epoch, 2. Starfall and 3. The Elven Sundering to account for geological processes in-universe for the Realms. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6430 Posts |
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EltonRobb
Learned Scribe
USA
216 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2025 : 00:27:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
Elton, did you consider gravity? Also, the solar system 4.5 billion years ago had a whole lot more relatively massive objects with wildly eccentric orbits. If Mars were strip-mined, Jupiter would be a more likely culprit than Venus.
EDIT: I am aware of meteorites on Earth that possibly came from Mars. Maybe, but I would postulate the solar system was far more crowded and chaotic billions of years ago and most collisions could easily be some totally different objects.
Here, watch this movie first, and it will explain it all. Including gravity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AUA7XS0TvA |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36940 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12147 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2025 : 21:50:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So, I hear there's this place in the Realms called Zakhara...
I hear its got genies .... and they can do amazing things with earth via this process called MAGIC ... There's even a whole bunch of people that were interested in earth based magic in the region too. Geomancers and these people called yikaria.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1366 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2025 : 04:11:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So, I hear there's this place in the Realms called Zakhara...
The falafel is to die for. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Zakhara, the Land of Fate
