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Demzer
Senior Scribe
882 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Aug 2025 : 14:56:00
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I tried not to get into this argument again because in the end we just run around in circles.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
... because it does something that no other being in D&D can do. It does something no pantheon, power, god, deity, celestial, fiend, or proxy can do.
But this is just not true.
Plenty of things in D&D can trap, destroy or warp the souls of mortals with no going back (except plot armour or DM fiat). Demiliches devour souls, and that's the end. Devils, demons, yugoloths and their lot, they all torture souls until they are not recognizable anymore and then build up effed up evil outsiders from them. Some form of undeath make souls completely unfit for a "normal" afterlife. Souls could even be trapped for eternity by mortal spellcasters on a whim. And that's without getting into higher powers shenanigans (which are most of the time just plot devices and comparable to DM fiat).
The other point that people are forgetting is that in Faerun a deity is her portfolio and her portfolio is the deity. You don't see nature collapsing or rivers drying up because Chauntea and Eldath are too smart to get offed every 5 seconds like Mystr*. But in the offchance it happened, the consequences would be catastrophic, without a suitable replacement ready. This means that "refusing the gods" for real would mean not interacting with the world at all. Because every wave of the sea is Umberlee, every storm is Talos, every rock is Grumbar, every gust of wind is Akadi, every glint of the morning light is Lathander, and so on.
There is a surprisingly insightful passage about this I think in one book of the post-ToT serie (pardon my faulty memory here) when the protagonists go to a monastery of Cyricists during the spat between Cyric and the rest of the pantheon and the monks of the monastery are being actively denied the action of all other mayor gods. They have no magic, they cannot die, they can't grow food, can't appreciate the beauty of anything, can't stand the sun, and so on.
While I admire the sense of justice that drives some against the idea of the Wall of the Faithless, I must say that these discussions drive home just how much people cannot let go of their own worldviews even when immersing themselves into a fictional world. Which is not bad if your table is all on the same page (the most important thing for any D&D campaign) but is hardly something that applies in general to the whole population of people appreciating the Forgotten Realms. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6430 Posts |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
882 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2025 : 13:57:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
snip
I would have to doublecheck all instances you cite but going from memory in all of those cases there were other deities taking up the spot almost immediately. All the strife between regional pantheons that produced the final Faerunian pantheon was deities expanding their territories, so to speak, and taking up the mantle and duties of other deities.
For the Mulhorandi and Untheric pantheons, even if you check the original Old Empires you see that the two pantheons merged with deities from one side taking up an alias and filling the gap of their equivalent in the other pantheon when they disappeared. If I'm not mistaken, there was also something about an eclipse when Re was killed? And Horus was there to take on the mantle immediately.
So yeah, of course when you get to divine things everythings is muddy, but we can still see the patterns, I think.
EDIT: or maybe I just dislike special snowflake Mystr* and don't want her to be that unique, who knows |
Edited by - Demzer on 26 Aug 2025 13:59:16 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6430 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2025 : 14:49:10
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Nobody likes the mary sue's, but she is unique because she is the only god that can essentially inhabit the material plane on a permanent basis.
Gods inhabit the outer planes because they need souls and belief which travels to them via the ethereal or astral (i forget which), but also because their divine realm essentially makes them indestructible - a massive geographic / planar location filled with loyal servants that the deity completely controls and can submerge themselves into so the entire realm has to be destroyed to kill the deity.
But Mystra can merge with the Weave in the same way as a deity merges with their divine realm. The weave funnels all the power of magic to her and it covers pretty much the entire planet, with multiple anchors to protect it from destruction. Thus in theory Mystra should be entirely safe while merged with it, and she can do anything other gods can do while they are on the outer planes (she can send spells to her worshippers, manifest miracles, etc).
She is special and different because she actually is special and different.
I will have to look up the eclipse thing for Ra's death, that could prove problematic. The deaths and mergers of gods and other pantheons was not immediate in any of the instances that i'm aware of (the Netherese, Illuskan, and Calishite / Jhaamdath pantheon mergers took centuries.
More importantly regional pantheons, if the gods were literally their portfolios and said portfolios had power and control over existence, would end up causing localised problems with the destruction of certain gods. How would one explain an eclipse occuring only in Mulhorand / Unther?
It makes far more sense if (following Ed's advice) the portfolios represent a mission statement for the clergy. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4227 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2025 : 15:13:56
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| Local pantheons have control over local things. An eclipse can happen in one area because "god magic" and not in other areas. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6430 Posts |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4227 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2025 : 22:12:30
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Why can't there be an eclipse in just one area?
What rules of divine magic say that?
Imagination rules games...not laws of physics from our world.
Yes, the Sun can be eclipsed for just one dang town if magic is afoot.
When the "nature of divinity" in a fantasy setting is at play, then I imagine an entire area of their divine influence can be eclipsed.
It is a fantasy game...not a "Rules of Physics/Natural Universe" game. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 26 Aug 2025 22:15:15 |
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Scots Dragon
Seeker
United Kingdom
92 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2025 : 22:52:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
EDIT: or maybe I just dislike special snowflake Mystr* and don't want her to be that unique, who knows
Do you want Spellplagues? 'Cause that's how you get Spellplagues. |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
238 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2025 : 23:17:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Why can't there be an eclipse in just one area?
What rules of divine magic say that?
Imagination rules games...not laws of physics from our world.
Yes, the Sun can be eclipsed for just one dang town if magic is afoot.
When the "nature of divinity" in a fantasy setting is at play, then I imagine an entire area of their divine influence can be eclipsed.
It is a fantasy game...not a "Rules of Physics/Natural Universe" game.
Indeed. This seems like Fantasy 101 to me. |
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Athreeren
Learned Scribe
177 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2025 : 07:10:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Why can't there be an eclipse in just one area?
What rules of divine magic say that?
Imagination rules games...not laws of physics from our world.
Yes, the Sun can be eclipsed for just one dang town if magic is afoot.
When the "nature of divinity" in a fantasy setting is at play, then I imagine an entire area of their divine influence can be eclipsed.
It is a fantasy game...not a "Rules of Physics/Natural Universe" game.
From the Shadowdale novel: "However, the thief soon noticed a wealth of heat soaking his neck. He turned, and found a second sunrise that mimicked the first to total perfection. Off to the north and the south, other suns were rising with visible speed. Illusions or no, the effects were disconcerting. The sweltering heat from the blinding orbs caused the tiny pockets of mud in the road to dry and harden, and the earth itself began to smoke with a foul odor"
Later: "At times the sun appeared to be in the wrong position"
It could be wild magic causing an illusion (nobody is casting it anyway), but the novel is clearly presenting this as Lathander not being able to control the sun's cycle, so it simply decides to appear at different phases at once.
Similarly, at the end of the trilogy, Midnight's ascension prompts new stars to appear in the sky to represent her symbol. Then in the second book of the Cloakmaster series, space travellers remark upon how the Time of Troubles has prompted new stars to appear in Realmspace (as in, those are not lights in the sky but actual pathways through the phlogiston). Astronomy is simply more chaotic than in our world: the stars sometimes do weird things, especially if the gods are not there to make them behave. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1367 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2025 : 08:30:44
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| Amaunator's priests could "borrow" sunlight from one area. It is magic. Do not invest more thought than is necessary. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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GUESSING Reason for the wall of the faithless
