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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Sep 2008 : 02:27:02
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One of the players in the group im DM'ing wants to research the ability to shapechange into a raven as a special ability. I like the Idea, couse it fits his character, but how do I go about it. Should it only be a matter of using a Wish spell to gain the ability or would you, sages of the art, say that it should be done otherwize. Im partial to a mix, using a wish combined with some other form of reseach but I am very interested in some feedback please!
What is your take on this???
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2008 : 06:22:15
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Hm, he isn't a druid, is he? Maybe he has a druid as friend who is willing to teach him shapechanging - but it does not seem very likely since shapechanging is a stunt not easily learned, druids do not get at the start of their career, but only later on, and you have to have a special bond to nature, I think.
What about finding a ring of three wishes with only one ruby left? That makes a good reward for a quest which is maybe not directly linked to the search for gaining this ability. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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freyar
Learned Scribe
Canada
220 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2008 : 11:52:14
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| If it's a wizard-type character, why not research a spell? In late 3.X, polymorph has been broken into a lot of different specific spells for changing into one form or another, and there should be plenty of inspiration there. |
My DnD Links and Creations |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2008 : 13:28:04
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Well he is a wizard, but he wants the ability as a special ability usable at will... I was thinking something in the line of using a wish and getting the help of some powerful druid...
Any Ideas?
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Calmar
Acolyte
49 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2008 : 13:32:28
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| You could give the character the ability to change into a raven as a spell-like ability (for a certain number of times and time) as a special reward in an adventure. If you have access to the Dungeon Master's Guide II or Complete Mage you could find some useful guidelines among the magical locations there (maybe even if you're using 4ed). |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2008 : 23:01:42
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Personally?
Its a very potent thing to just give a player, even if he uses a wish. Even coupled with research, I don't think the cost justifies what you are getting (no material components and change-at-will means easy escapes, aerial reconnosaince, the ability to spy unobserved on people, ease-of-travel, simple foraging when food is scarce, etc, etc...)
I would make it a one-level PrC. Allow a D4 HD, the ability, and thats it.
Thats the way I would handle it if one of my players made such a request, but I'm not big on giving away 'freebies'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Sep 2008 23:02:05 |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2008 : 23:51:24
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At will should be a no-no... even druids don't have it at will.
There's a Mulhorandi* feat (see below) that lets you shapeshift as an eagle; have him take that, but slightly modify it for raven (weaker), and increase the number of times he can take it per day (compensating for the weaker raven form).
Have him take the natural spell feat on top of that, and he can now cast in raven form.
*Initiate of Horus-Re [Initiate] Clrpal\rgr4, Patron Deity Horus-Re. Benefit: Hawk form for 1 hour per day. Add spells to spell list. CoV, p. 30
Make it:
Raven Mage [Wild] Must be able to cast 2nd-level arcane spells; Benefit: Raven form for 1 hour per day per character level, can be taken non-consecutively. This feat stacks with the Wild Shape druid ability (i.e. all feats that work with wild shape, like natural spell, work with this ability)
I'd also add, but this is just me: druid and wizard/sor/warlock levels stack for the purposes of determining the strength of animal companions, familiars and the wild empathy ability. |
Edited by - Purple Dragon Knight on 16 Sep 2008 23:52:34 |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2008 : 00:03:47
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| PDK's solution looks quite balanced to me. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
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He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
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* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Calmar
Acolyte
49 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2008 : 13:32:14
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I agree, Purple Dragon Knight's solution sounds good.
Another idea - translation (or ripoff from PDK's feat...  ) to a substitution level. So how about this:
Raven Mage
(Wizard)
Requirements
To take the raven mage substitution level, a character must
be about to take her 8th level of wizard.
Class Skills
The raven mage substitution level has the class skills of
the standard wizard class.
Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier.
Class Feature
All of the following are features of the raven mage's substitution
level.
Raven Mage: A raven mage masters the art of changing her form into a raven. She can take raven form for 1 hour per day per character level (can be taken non-consecutively). This class feature stacks with the Wild Shape druid ability (i.e. all feats that work with wild shape, like natural spell, work with this ability)
This benefit replaces the 4th-level spell slot gained by a standard wizard at 8th level. From now on, the wizard can prepare one less 4th-level wizard spell than indicated on Table 3–18, page 55 of the Player’s Handbook.
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Edited by - Calmar on 17 Sep 2008 13:34:16 |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2008 : 21:58:52
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Calmar, that's awesome! even better than my feat solution! :)
Edit: although I would perhaps restrict this substitution level to Transmuters? (i.e. wizards specialized in transmutation) After comparing this to the Gnome Illusionist and Gnome Bard (RoS) substitution levels, I'm inclined to think it would be a bit too powerful for a simple 4th-level slot, unless the mage is a Transmuter! |
Edited by - Purple Dragon Knight on 17 Sep 2008 22:01:07 |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2008 : 23:00:33
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| Not that anyone necessarily cares for my opinion, I like Calmar's substitution level idea and agree with PDK's thought that it should be limited to Transmuters. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2008 : 16:48:07
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| One could do it by researching a spell to shift into a raven and then take Archmage and choose the option of getting that spell as a spell like ability. |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2008 : 19:41:19
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
One could do it by researching a spell to shift into a raven and then take Archmage and choose the option of getting that spell as a spell like ability.
I thought about that, but if you're an archmage, wouldn't you then take Shapechange (9th-level) as a spell-like ability and not limit yourself to "Raven"? Each time you take that archmage ability, you must sacrifice a 5th-level slot AND a slot of the level which you plan to use as a spell-like ability. Therefore, when you take that ability, it's only "worth" it if you choose something from the 6th, 7th, 8th or 9th-level slot (9th-level slot being the best use of that ability). Anything below 5th is moot, as you must waste a 5th-level slot to buy it... not sure if I make 100% sense here, but my statistical instincts tell me this is about right! |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2008 : 21:34:15
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PDK,
I haven't checked the details in quite a while, I'd just assumed the higher level spell you wanted as a spell per day the higher the cost. If that isn't the case then shapechange would be the one to go for, with natural spell. Though that just seems. . . too much to me really. I'm not sure how comfortable I'd be letting a PC have shapechange as a spell like ability. But that's just me. :) |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2008 : 22:41:32
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
PDK,
I haven't checked the details in quite a while, I'd just assumed the higher level spell you wanted as a spell per day the higher the cost. If that isn't the case then shapechange would be the one to go for, with natural spell. Though that just seems. . . too much to me really. I'm not sure how comfortable I'd be letting a PC have shapechange as a spell like ability. But that's just me. :)
Oh... let me tell you!! it sucks! big time!
My long-standing (now epic) campaign has a sun elf archmage with shapechange (so he sacrificed both a 5th and 9th level slot for it). After two or three games of utter chaos and time wasted perusing the monster manual looking for his shape's powers (btw, you can change shape EACH ROUND as a FREE action with the shapechange spell...) I insisted in having him select his "top 5" favorite shapes and had him rewrite his character sheet 5 times, once for each shape (i.e. I let him change shape to whatever he wants in non-combat situations, but in terms of combat stats, I insisted in having him do some homework, in order to speed up play).
So far the substitution level idea seems ideal. But I'd be curious in knowing the logic behind Calmar's choice for 8th-level wizard, instead of 5th or 10th... I'd go for 5th personally, as the power isn't too powerful and because I want to see that player sacrifice a feat for it... but... a 4th-level slot is also appropriate... hmmm... level 7 maybe? (4th level slot, which is more a sacrifice then as it prevents the mage from casting 4th level spell for yet another level, unless he/she has bonus spells due to Int...)
PS: I find that this substitution level could work for sorcerers too... thoughts?
So maybe:
- wizard (transmuter) 7th (4th-level slot); and
- sorcerer 7th (3rd-level slot and one less known 3rd-level spell; OR two 3rd-level slots).
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2008 : 07:10:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Each time you take that archmage ability, you must sacrifice a 5th-level slot AND a slot of the level which you plan to use as a spell-like ability.
I always thought that choice was kinda "bugged" since the same skill for the Hierophant only requires you to sacrifice a spell slot from the level you want to have as spell-like ability. Even if you learn a 9th level spell as spell-like ability I dont think its worth it due to limiting the flexibility. There arent that many high level spells slots for a wizard.
Calmars solution looks nice, but what if the character is not a Wizard? Thats why I think a feat might be a more flexible solution. Maybe a "Spirit of Raven [Heritage]" feat with the first allowing the shapeshift and some others which add more flavour to that? This is a more "spiritual" solution compared to the "magical" one of Calmar. Suggested flavour:
- Spirit of the Raven: Transform into a raven X times per day, where X is the number of Raven Spirit heritage feats.
- Raven flight: Wind Walk 1/day (self only) (or other rapid travel spell which is not instantaneous like Teleport)
- Raven dreams: Dream / Dream casting 1/day
- Raven senses: +X Spot & Listen, X=number of Raven Heritage feats. This works all the time and not just in raven form. (The ravens in the Tower of London are really keen sighted and smart ... they recognize a cookie shown to them from far away AND know its "theirs" if they get it)
- ...
The native american indians and some other old cultures have "Spirit animals", so more heritage ideas could be inspired by them.
Another solution might be a "Were-Raven", but I have no idea how that would work since its a blessing and a curse at the same time and there arent any flying were-creatures yet I think.
Another solution might be "Hamfarigan" (cf. "Tangled Webs" for more flavour), shapeshifting as spirit animal for a daily use (or two) of Barbarian rage. This could be used for raven totem Barbarians and there could be a different way for the Berserker rage to work (different stats, maybe hasted instead of Str or Con bonus?) in the "giant animal form". This is a mix between the Heritage and the were-raven, but again limited to one class only.
[I always thought the 3e Barbarian should be split into 4 different sets of class options because not every Barbarian in novels can rage: 1. regular Barbarian: no rage, but increased weapon damage with primitive weapons; 2. Berserker: as Barbarian now; 3. Hamfarigan: rage = shift to totem animal form and other "spirit benefits"; 4. Skald: no rage, no/few spells, but bardic "combat enhancing music" and more skills.] |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2008 : 14:18:05
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I personally like calmars idea, and also the thing about it only being possible for a transmuter, I will say that I will change it so it requires spell focus in transmutation. But other than that great. I do also like the arch-mage model, except it seems quite powerful.
In the event I choose the Raven mage idea, how should he learn it... I have my own idears, but does anyone have a good storyline i could borrow??? |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2008 : 14:58:32
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If this were one of my players, I'd choose one of these options, depending on what fit in best with what was going on the campaign at that time.
(1) Design a solo mini-quest for the PC, the object of which is to gain an item that would accomplish this. I'd probably base the item on the Rat Form Armor on p. 48 of Adventurer's Vault, raising the minimum level to account for the raven's flying ability.
(2) Ritualize! There or no polymorphing rituals that I can think of yet, but it would be a fun thing for the character to have to develop. It would have to be pretty high level, though, possibly too high for it to come into play early enough in the character's career to be interesting.
(3) Most likely, I'd design a form of corvid lycanthropy and infect the character, giving them a balance of negatives and positives based on the character's personality, maybe leaning toward the negative for balance's sake. |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2008 : 15:02:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
In the event I choose the Raven mage idea, how should he learn it... I have my own ideas, but does anyone have a good storyline i could borrow???
If you can track down a copy where you live, I'd highly recommend reading the stuff about Raven in Lewis Hyde's Trickster Makes This World.
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My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Calmar
Acolyte
49 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2008 : 23:50:18
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Thanks for the kind resonance to my substitution level. 
I chose 8th level for the following reasons:
The standard polymorph spell is of 4th level. While a wizard may prepare 4th-level spells already at 7th, I didn't want to deny her the ability to cast 4th spells altogether on that first level she is able to cast them (I assume a wizard with an Int score of only 14 should be able to take the substitution level as well). On 8th level a wizard can cast a 4th level spell in any case this way.
I agree that this power is not too powerful when in comes to utility in the direct elimination of enemies (which is, as far as I understand, the key factor to determine whether an ability is 'balanced' or not.)*, but it works as if you had the ability to cast polymorph many times per day, in place of only once per day for 10 min/lvl (when prepared normally using a spell slot of 4th level). Altogether, being small, inconspicuous-looking and able to fly is very useful in many adventuring situations, though, so the raven mage sacrifices the ability to cast half her base spells per day in exchange (again assuming the wizard the minimal required Int).
Having the ability at an even lower level didn't feel fair to me, since even the druid may only change into a tiny animal as recently as at level 11 with the wild shape ability, without being able to split the time as the raven mage may do.
*althought I have to admit that I mostly possess no knack for min-maxing and exploiting abilities and class features... |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2008 : 04:08:40
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The person in question is a level 22 wizard, and after playing, way to much Warcraft III, wanted the same ability as Mideve. Well thats the background.
If he were to take substitution level in Raven Mage, he would then loose 1 spellslot of 4'th level, is that correct, and he would then be able to use it 23 hour per day... Am I understanding this correctly??? |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2008 : 04:55:39
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| Yes |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2008 : 07:43:26
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Another way to get this ability is to play a birdlord as detailed in the 3.0 volume Masters of the Wild, one of the different kinds of Animal Lords. There is a "Living Greyhawk 3.5 Conversion Guidelines" pdf you can google for (search for "Animal Lord" 3.5 conversion).
The character in question has to be a druid to take this PrC, and the birdlord which he would become wouldn't be limited to ravens but could become a bird of every race, but maybe this PrC is an interesting alternative. Perhaps you can even adapt it by limiting it to a specialized Raven Lord. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
Edited by - Ayunken-vanzan on 21 Sep 2008 07:44:13 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 04:18:34
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| Another option -- and one I'd limit to characters of 8th level or above (that level simply because it's not too high nor too low, and it's been used in this thread already) is for it to be a divine gift. If a character was particularly devout, and did something really major for a deity, then the deity might grant the boon of allowing the character to transform -- gear and all -- into one of the deity's favored animals. It would have to be a really big thing, though, to warrant such a favor -- maybe rescuing a particularly favored servant from the domain of the deity's biggest rival, perhaps, or something else truly difficult and impressive like that. |
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Shapeshifting
