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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 22:19:05
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I do not like either Aurora's or the Thayan Enclaves.
That being said, BOTH exist in my version of FR. They are not magical 'convenience stores' - they are places that carry a few specific goods, usually merchandise that was over-produced (in the Thayan case) or bought in-quantity at a reasonable price (as it works with Aurora's). Potions would be most-common, with maybe a few other craptastic items thrown-in (like +1 daggers, or a one-shot ring of feather fall). Powerful items would only exist in such a place if it was important to my story line, and there was some need for the item (which I may conveniently make go-away when the scenario is complete).
You can get most anything you want, but it has to be special-ordered, and can take anywhere from several days to several months. Prices would be extremely high, and with powerful items the cost would be INSANELY prohibitive.
And in the case of the Red Wizards, there may be a 'former owner' of said item that eventually comes looking for it. 
As for the argument, its ridiculous. Magic MUST have logic behind it, most especially in a world tied to game-rules. HOWEVER, in a fantasy world one can make nearly anything plausible. So you are both RIGHT and the only thing WRONG is the disrespectful tones.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Sep 2010 22:26:57 |
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capnvan
Senior Scribe
USA
592 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 22:25:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
How about these words: apply all the logic you wish, magic is illogical and functions outside any reasoning there is. That is why it is called magic.
Actually, in all fantasy worlds I've read or even heard about, magic obeys the rules of logic.
I'm not sure what fantasy you've been reading. The idea that magic obeys the rules of logic is, quite literally, absurd. Given that the premise is, being fiction, inherently false, logic can't play any part, at least according to a number of definitions.
And going on about your embrace of logic, in view of the preceding, is, frankly, kind of annoying. "Logic" has many definitions. Your posts suggest that maybe you're not clear on that. |
"Saving a life, though regrettable, is a small price to pay for a whole lifetime of unfettered killing." |
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capnvan
Senior Scribe
USA
592 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 22:26:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And in the case of the Red Wizards, there may be a 'former owner' of said item that eventually comes looking for it.
A made-to-order adventure hook! |
"Saving a life, though regrettable, is a small price to pay for a whole lifetime of unfettered killing." |
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capnvan
Senior Scribe
USA
592 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 22:35:11
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quote:
Originally posted by IcelanderSpecialisation started with gathering food. In fact, the main difference between a group of early humans and a group of early protohumans is that the humans specialise in which food to gather or hunt and exchange food with other humans. Other primates do not.
This argument is so specious as to be pointless. Arguing that the most basic division of labor is equivalent to modern or even medieval "specialization" is like arguing that a Sopwith Camel and an SR-71 were both recce planes.
Among other basics, a number of Stone Age societies (observed in the historical period) had such a limited division of labor as to suggest that the term wasn't useful. Neither your comments about specialization among primates nor primitive humans are correct. |
"Saving a life, though regrettable, is a small price to pay for a whole lifetime of unfettered killing." |
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capnvan
Senior Scribe
USA
592 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 22:39:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
The two are in no way comparable. DeBeers is in a position where they control much of the supply.
Again, your basic assumptions and information are painfully out-of-date. De Beers, while still a powerful mining company, no longer has anywhere near the control of supply that they did. |
"Saving a life, though regrettable, is a small price to pay for a whole lifetime of unfettered killing." |
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capnvan
Senior Scribe
USA
592 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 23:17:58
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To add to my point about "commodification" in the Realms...
From Dragon #95, the Ecology of the Cockatrice, by one Ed Greenwood:
"For the making of whips, hats, cloaks and the like adorned with cockatrice tailfeathers, the feathers must be magically preserved. To do this, take a cauldron, and into it pour equal parts of oil of etherealness, aqua regia, and human tears (at least half an ounce of each). Mix this liquid well with a glass or crystal rod, and heat it to boiling while stirring in at least 6000 gp worth of powdered agate and either six whole (live or dead) cerebral parasites or the blood (7 drops or more) of a slaad, a githyanki, or a nightmare.
"Stir this mixture until the solid components are dissolved, and then immerse the cockatrice feathers in the liquid while it is boiling. (A mending spell must be used beforehand on the feathers if they are broken, bent, or crumpled.) Take the cauldron away from the heat immediately after putting the feathers into the liquid, and let the cauldron stand until the liquid evaporates.
"The cockatrice feathers will then be intact, resilient, and flexible, and will remain so forever (unless damaged or destroyed), retaining the power to permanently petrify living creatures (save vs. petrification at +1) by touch."
Not exactly factory-ready. |
"Saving a life, though regrettable, is a small price to pay for a whole lifetime of unfettered killing." |
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capnvan
Senior Scribe
USA
592 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 23:28:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
The fact that Thay effectively consists of hundreds of smaller economic units isn't especially relevant. As long as there isn't all out war, it benefits Thayan interests in the world when any of them grow more powerful.
Why wouldn't the conflicts within Thay be relevant? Internal conflict, whether open or not, is canonically one of the major reasons for the failure of Thay to achieve its strategic goals. Certainly, the zulkirs actively attempt to keep their peers from succeeding at pretty much anything. |
"Saving a life, though regrettable, is a small price to pay for a whole lifetime of unfettered killing." |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2010 : 03:00:14
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quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
Given that the premise is, being fiction, inherently false, logic can't play any part, at least according to a number of definitions.
A conclusion arrived at in a logical manner from false premises is still logical. It's just not true. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2010 : 04:01:00
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quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
To add to my point about "commodification" in the Realms...
[...]
Not exactly factory-ready.
In the real world, there is a substance which is made from the liquified bones of dinosaurs that have to be buried for millions of years.
It's sold at gas stations.
If you examine everything that has gone into a typical commodity, they are insanely hard to make. There is a famous story about a pencil and how components and people from all over the world are involved in creating just one of them. Yet we buy and sell them constantly.
Even the fact that something is the life's work of an artist does not prevent it from being sold as a commodity. Nor does the fact that there is only one of something in the world. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4265 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2010 : 08:18:31
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I thought Oil was made from plant material.
Anyway.
I just wanted to say that I shouldn't have been so foul tempered and I apologize for demanding an apology.
That aside and done...
Thay is not a dominant military or mercantile power-house in the Forgotten Realms.
We only have to look at published material to learn that its own internal dissension is what keeps it in check. The dominant mercantile interests in Faerun are such as Amn, Sembia, and city-states such as Waterdeep.
From what I've gleaned from a few discussions between others and Ed Greenwood is that Thay is more akin (now these are my words) to Italy in the City-States period. Sure, Venice was exceedingly wealthy and so were other cities, but militarily speaking they could never capitalize again on a "Latinized World" simply because they were too busy scheming against each other, fighting each other, and trying to outdo each other.
Now, if Thay is indeed like this, then no matter its income generated from magical trade...which in my opinion is only a fraction of total trade in Faerun...it will remain divided and thus never progress to even be able to manage a proper invasion of Rashemen. Even if there are five million people in Thay that has no bearing other than having multitudes of slaves. The actual ruling caste of Thay can't be found everywhere, and in fact the Red Wizards don't do the day to day ruling of Thay at any rate...that is taken care of by the Tharchions who are either Red Wizards or, even common non-spellcasting Mulan.
There is no real world political structure that can actually relate to Thay of course, because it is a fantasy nation with abilities and culture unlike anything here in the real world or its history.
Despite any argument by Icelander, we have only to look to the future of Faerun after the Spellplague to see that Thay will never amount to anything more than a regional player in the greater scheme of things...and once we reach that future, Thay is actually a far worse off nation than earlier in history; little interested in any sort of trade at all.
I guess it is a moot discussion since WotC, the designers of Thay's future, have already decided it doesn't work out so well for them eh?
I can't help but say I'm probably wrong though. If history has taught me anything, it is that no matter my opinion I'm quite often wrong according to at least one person...so I should be willing to see that Icelander is very much right in his manner of thinking.
NOW...back to the ORIGINAL Trade of Thay.
There were no enclaves, only hidden traders or lone merchants with perhaps a few assistants. Since the Enclave was a method of introducing the much more common ability to produce magical items found in 3.0 Edition D&D, we can safely say that before that edition of the game that magic was much more rare in the Forgotten Realms?
Instead of only having to be 3rd level to create Wonderous Items, in earlier editions you had to be 11th level as a wizard before you could even scribe a spell scroll! Perhaps this is the origin of my "flawed" thinking regarding magic in Faerun being much more rare?
I'm not sure, but I'm going to work from that premise for my Forgotten Realms which is currently using the OGB and 1st Edition Advanced Dungeons and Dragons.
In such an environment, there will rarely be wizards enough to create such a large number of magical items for sale at any rate...and the formula, as has been mentioned here, requires extensive and sometimes quite rare items to produce a single magical item. Not only that, but that particular formula may be different for each magic-user creating magical items.
In such a Forgotten Realms as THIS, my argument (I hope) makes much more sense. There is no need for worrying about Enclaves in such an environment, because even the Red Wizards do not have an over-abundance of 11th level wizards (or higher) overly concerned about manufacturing magical items...especially when it takes 2 days + 1-8 more days just to PREPARE one item; and much longer depending on what you want the item to do...because that takes too much time away from their spell research, acquisition of power and etc.
As a wizard, why would I sit around for weeks on end making magical items to sell to someone else...gaining no power for myself...only to have some more powerful wizard attack me and take it from me when I was done with it because he was out researching spells and gaining power while I was worried about coins I could simply TAKE from someone? I'm an Evil Red Wizard right? I'll admit, it could be a cowardly Red Wizard afraid of conflict...and maybe such a one might be the servant of a more powerful wizard and ordered by him to make magical items...but even then I'm going to literally get burned out!
The only way I can make this item permanent is to cast Permanency on the item! This spell is dangerous because it may very well drain a point of constitution from me...so I've only got so many items I can make before I die.
In THIS world, magical items are only made rarely...and for a purpose. Perhaps a wizard works for a noble, and this noble has a land being plagued by a demon. Well, all his soldiers weapons are useless against the beast, so he seeks out his wizard and asks him to create a magical weapon capable of defeating this demon. The wizard does his research and finds that a +2 Sword will do (to him it is an ancient formula he finds that was made for a similar purpose against a similar demon long ago). He then undertakes this creation and finishes it...losing a point of constitution in the process. The noble takes the sword and goes to slay the demon and succeeds.
Now, a hundred years later, this sword is found in the ruins of what was once that noble's keep...now a ruin after an orc horde defeats the noble and his people and sacks their keep; only the sword was hidden away.
THAT is how magic comes to be in the hands of adventurers...not going down the street and saying to some pimple-faced wizard's apprentice: "I need a +2 Longsword to go please..." and the young man says to come back in a couple of days to pick up your purchase...or worse "We have this fine blade here on our shelf Sir, newly arrived from the Magic Sword Making Shop...that will be 4000 gold coins please."
So, looking at magic in this manner you can see that my thoughts on magical item trade in the Forgotten Realms fits very nicely and isn't "illogical" at all.
In MY Realms, things are just this way...not because Icelander's ideas are wrong...they simply don't apply to my Forgotten Realms using a system and playing style that says magical items just aren't easy to come by. Sure, there is lots of magic in the world; but it has slowly accumulated over tens of thousands of years...not since Thay decided to open Thay-Mart down the street from my castle.
Man...I don't even know if all that made sense...but its my last effort on this entire matter. It works for me and for my players (both past and present) so I'm all done worrying about it now. Have a nice adventure all! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2010 : 17:07:16
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The situation in Thay is actually very-much like the situation in corporate America.
Could we dominate every single world market if we wanted to and worked together? Of course we would - our production base is double the size of the rest of the world combined. As for raw materials, we have MANY untapped reserves of just about everything (including oil).
DO WE DOMINATE EVERY MARKET AND CONTROL THE WORLD ECONOMY? No... because most of the guys running those multi-billion dollar corporations would rather out-do each other on every single level, and work just as hard to hurt their competitors as they do to make profits.
And that is Thay (pre-4e), in a nutshell. They will never rule the world, because they can't even rule themselves. They are fractured society ruled by an elite class who are so out of touch with reality and each other that working together will never be an option. They would rather see a hated rival get destroyed then rush to his (or her) aid.
And if you hear about a certain Zulkir's Thayan Enclave getting destroyed, it was most likely done by one of the other Zulkirs out of jealousy. You can never get ahead in a system like that.
Tam realized that, and that's why he 'removed' the system. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2010 : 18:35:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The situation in Thay is actually very-much like the situation in corporate America.
Could we dominate every single world market if we wanted to and worked together? Of course we would - our production base is double the size of the rest of the world combined. As for raw materials, we have MANY untapped reserves of just about everything (including oil).
DO WE DOMINATE EVERY MARKET AND CONTROL THE WORLD ECONOMY? No... because most of the guys running those multi-billion dollar corporations would rather out-do each other on every single level, and work just as hard to hurt their competitors as they do to make profits.
Eh...
Yeah, sure. Your economic and political analysis is spot on. Centrally administered and planned economies have a much higher track record than those silly market economies where everyone spends their energy on competing with everyone else.
Just in case, though, you might want to do some thinking about why the US produces so much. More than many nations with more people and less competition. Why South Korea produces more than an order of magnitude more than North Korea per capita, despite the fact that North Korea has no wasteful competition. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2010 : 19:01:55
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Ummmmm...
and I thought I was the master of sidetracking to divert the point. 
MY POINT WAS that in a system wherein the folks in-charge are all competing with each other, 'world domination' becomes nigh-impossible because we do NOT want to see our rivals get ahead along with us - corporate espionage is half the business.
Of course a free economy out-produces gov't-controlled economies, because there is no desire to to excel, since you can't possibly get ahead unless you are one of those leaders. This is why although the Soviet union out-produced us in military machinery throughout the cold war, most of of it turned out to be unusable junk - it had about an 80% 'Fail' rate, whereas American weaponry has at least a 99% chance of functioning properly under combat conditions.
Without incentives, the system falls apart. unfortunately you just proved our point, and made a VERY good one yourself.
Not only is Thay like a corporate-controlled free economy in that separate, individual organizations (each Zulchir and Tharchion and their entourages) run the country's production, without interference or Gov't regulation, but they also follow the pattern of a closed, communistic economy in that only the leaders get ahead, and the workers don't stand a chance (except for maybe the low-lev mages actually enchanting items for sale).
So what you have there is an example of the worst of both (extreme) systems, with a labor-force that has no reason to excel, and a few greedy b@stiches that won't let anyone else get ahead of them, including the other greedy b@stiches. If it wasn't for the immense amount of slave labor their MAIN export - produce - would fall-off, and they would have never had the capital to expand their economic interests into other areas.
It does not matter how much each individual Zulkir or Tharchion controls, because Thay as a whole will never unify and use the power collectively for 'the common good'. Don't think of Thay as Korea - think of it as Africa. It has tons of potential, with nigh-unlimited raw, untapped resources, but they are so busy killing each other they don't have time to look over the next hill. They will, however, work together for defense, which is why no one has conquered them one Tharch at a time. They may not like each other, but they like everyone else a lot less.
I just thought of something funny and only slightly off-topic - Thay probably produces more manure/fertilizer then most nations as well (which I'm sure helps with their produce-production), because they have one of the largest concentrated populations of centaurs in Faerun.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2010 : 19:13:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
MY POINT WAS that in a system wherein the folks in-charge are all competing with each other, 'world domination' becomes nigh-impossible because we do NOT want to see our rivals get ahead along with us - corporate espionage is half the business.
Indeed. And while that might mean that the world will not soon be unified under a peaceful Thayan government, that, unfortunately, does nothing to prevent individual Thayan power-blocs from subverting, colonising and/or annexing foreign polities and then, in a distant future, fight a 'Thayan civil war' that involves many formerly independent nations and cities as belligerents on the various sides.
Thay is closer to the late Roman Republic than to Africa. Multiple power-blocs formed around charismatic and wealthy politicians of certain blood-lines, each believing that he ought to govern the future course of the state.
And just look at how the various Roman 'civil wars' involved most of the known world at the time. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2010 : 19:54:45
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NOW we are on the same page.
My History of the Taan (as-yet unrevealed) covers an odd bit of lore about Thazalhar - it was once an Imaskari survivor-state, that got trashed during the Orcgate wars and was eventually annexed by Thay (because no-one else wanted it after that). That is not canon, but in several sources Thazalhar is said to be an independent political entity, so I made that up to cover that gaff.
The Wizard's Reach is their latest move to create a new Tharch out of conquered territory, and I would assume that over the years several of the existing Tharches were added the same way.
So they have been doing exactly what you have said, albeit slowly, because of the fractious nature of their society. For the most part, the Roman legions all belonged to the emperor, and worked as a whole. Toward the end you had legions falling under individual commanders, some of whom marched on Rome itself (and fighting other legions), and that is why the system broke down and fell apart.
Without a central control with absolute power, you can only accomplish so much. Its why our president is known as the 'Commander in chief' - a true republic can't get anything done, because of the rivalries. Someone has to have the 'power of veto', else all you do is spend all your time debating issues, while your enemies hammer at your gates.
You can make small gains over time, as Thay is doing, but you will never be the unstoppable juggernaught that Nazi Germany proved to be during WWII.
However, a lot has changed in 4e, and we do have a unified Thay under Szass tam. the only problem being he has now lost his economy, and nearly all of his living citizens. Undead are cool and all, but when you fight wars, you need clever people making decisions. Thay has become what it needed to be, but at too great a cost. Even a Lich of Tam's caliber can't be everywhere at once, so the whole 'conquering the world' thing becomes a non-issue. He can conquer some of his neighbors... but does he even want to anymore?
What would be the point? he'd have to be on top of them all the time, and station troops everywhere to keep tabs on them (unless he kills them all as well, but does he really want to rule a world filled with rather boring undead?) I feel he is content to stay at home now and put his few resources to better use to achieve whatever unfathomable goals he may want to achieve (which I doubt is world domination). Liches become focused on one particular thing - it is their nature - and Szass already has his path. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Sep 2010 19:55:56 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2010 : 20:07:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Now, if Thay is indeed like this, then no matter its income generated from magical trade...which in my opinion is only a fraction of total trade in Faerun...it will remain divided and thus never progress to even be able to manage a proper invasion of Rashemen.
Thay is not just becoming rich from magic item trade. They are also one of the largest food producers on the Inner Sea and export massive amounts of slave-made goods.
They are a manufacturing powerhouse, not just a trade one, but since they are exporting in every increasing amounts, that is enriching them nevertheless.
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Despite any argument by Icelander, we have only to look to the future of Faerun after the Spellplague to see that Thay will never amount to anything more than a regional player in the greater scheme of things...and once we reach that future, Thay is actually a far worse off nation than earlier in history; little interested in any sort of trade at all.
I guess it is a moot discussion since WotC, the designers of Thay's future, have already decided it doesn't work out so well for them eh?
I can find no evidence that WotC based their new campaign world (confusingly named Forgotten Realms like our Realms) on rational thought about what would be likely to happen in the setting. Their overriding design principle appears to have been the desire to have a setting which most resembled popular MMORPGs.
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Since the Enclave was a method of introducing the much more common ability to produce magical items found in 3.0 Edition D&D, we can safely say that before that edition of the game that magic was much more rare in the Forgotten Realms?
Actually, no, it wasn't.
The Forgotten Realms that Ed Greenwood writes about and plays in are not all that bound by (A)D&D rules. And the Forgotten Realms have always included more magical items than would be reasonable to expect if only the methods in the early D&D rules for creating them worked.
But as it turns out, in Realmslore, more methods do exist. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2010 : 21:02:39
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Given that Elves - an incredibly magically gifted and productive race - had over 28,000 years to create magical items, not to mention the other 500+ sentient races on Abeir-Toril that have been 'doing magic' (including psionics), I would say FR has just the right amount of 'old magic' floating around.
Add-in about a dozen powerful magical human empires - some quite ancient and lasting for MANY thousands of years, and you will see we have an order of magnitude that easilly explains the proliferance of magic in The Realms.
Oh, and crap falls through gates all the time.
Or is pushed, or dragged, or stolen... ect...
Point is, Ed's design was near-perfect. I once said in some thread "It feels like you can't walk ten feet in the Realms without tripping over the ruins of some long-lost civilization", and THO responded "That's EXACTLY the feel Ed was trying to create".
The Thayans aren't doing anything new or spectacular - they are just the 'flavor of the month'. There lies much more magic still buried in the world then one nation can ever hope to produce in a thousand lifetimes.
quote:
"The wheel of time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the age that gave it birth comes again. These Forgotten Realms of the past were not the beginning. There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Great Wheel of Time. But it was a beginning."
--- The Wheel of Time, by Robert Jordan
...with some minor Realmsian modification by me. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4265 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2010 : 21:24:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Since the Enclave was a method of introducing the much more common ability to produce magical items found in 3.0 Edition D&D, we can safely say that before that edition of the game that magic was much more rare in the Forgotten Realms?
Actually, no, it wasn't.
The Forgotten Realms that Ed Greenwood writes about and plays in are not all that bound by (A)D&D rules. And the Forgotten Realms have always included more magical items than would be reasonable to expect if only the methods in the early D&D rules for creating them worked.
But as it turns out, in Realmslore, more methods do exist.
As you like to mock me, taunt me and such...how about a few more
LOL.
And actually the Enclave WAS *a* way to introduce the new method of making magical items more easily. Should you not believe me, perhaps ask someone who worked on the project before release. I don't remember who introduced me to that fact, but it was someone from WotC.
Perhaps I'll bother looking up the reference; but I'm really too lazy to do it I suppose...or maybe this whole thing is a fruitless attempt by me to enjoy this thread. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36989 Posts |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2010 : 22:48:07
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| Dalor Darden, if you take care to re-read my above message, you will find that my contention is that the Realms before 3e were not significantly lower magic or had fewer magical items. At least not in Ed Greenwood's home campaign or in his articles or game supplements. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2010 : 23:11:41
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quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
This argument is so specious as to be pointless. Arguing that the most basic division of labor is equivalent to modern or even medieval "specialization" is like arguing that a Sopwith Camel and an SR-71 were both recce planes.
Who said equivalent? The point was that the idea of specialisation was not new and neither were the observed benefits. Indeed, Charles Darwin once observed that primeval man undoubtedly specialised in food production and traded with other members of the tribe. So even the formal recognition of this effect is not all that 'modern'.
Increasing specialisation is both a cause and effect of increased economical prosperity.
quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
Among other basics, a number of Stone Age societies (observed in the historical period) had such a limited division of labor as to suggest that the term wasn't useful. Neither your comments about specialization among primates nor primitive humans are correct.
That's a very flawed sample. 'Modern' Stone Age societies still remain Stone Age societies because they were for some reason exceptionally isolated for thousands of years.
As the example of Tasmanian aboriginals aptly demonstrates, such isolation actually causes technological and sociological regression, causing skills and technology to be lost with time.
Most historical Stone Age cultures, judging from archeological evidence, were actually more advanced than the cultural isolates of the modern age. Indeed, the majority contain artifacts that are extremely unlikely to result from a self-sufficiency economic model.
For one thing, a major difference between Neanderthal tribe archeological evidence and that of later humans is that the later humans have artifacts that are constructed from materials not found locally.
Evidence of trade, personal expertise that suggests specialisation (exceptional cave paintings that are probably all the work of the same artist, elaborate bead decorations in the clothing of unrelated very young people) and what we recognise as humans mostly identical to us all appeared at the same time. This might be a coincidence, but I am inclined to think that it is not.
In that context, it is very interesting to consider that the isolated pockets of Stone Age cultures that linger to this day do not show evidence of trade typical in actual historical Stone Age societies. It is no stretch to imagine a connection between that lack, the lack of technological innovation when compared to other societies in similar conditions which did engage in trade and the lack of specialisation within the tribe.
Of course, no one thing among those is the cause and the other the effects. The different factors are complicit, each dependent on the others. With trade comes specialisation, with specialisation comes trade. With both comes human civilisation. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4265 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2010 : 07:13:49
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You know...after being out of sorts for the past few days I've went back and read all that has been said here, and I feel that I owe Icelander a sincere apology.
I do apologize. I've been out of it for a few days due to illness, and I was obviously more touchy than I needed to be. Please accept my apology, not just Icelander, but everyone else as well.
I enjoy coming to Candlekeep to discuss things, and that is what I want this place to remain for me: a place to enjoy.
Now, having said that, I still don't agree with what Icelander had to say completely; though the business manager side of me realizes that he is very thoughtful and is simply applying what he knows and understands to his argument.
I must still, however, respectfully disagree.
Happy Eid ul-Fitr to all.  |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2010 : 18:23:08
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Awwwwwwww...
Reminds me of that scene near the end of Mars Attacks!, where Jack Nicholson gives that heart-felt speech ending with "Can't we all just... get along?"
Of course, he was horribly killed 3 seconds later. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4265 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2010 : 19:36:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Awwwwwwww...
Reminds me of that scene near the end of Mars Attacks!, where Jack Nicholson gives that heart-felt speech ending with "Can't we all just... get along?"
Of course, he was horribly killed 3 seconds later.
Are you a loon or what!?  |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2010 : 23:05:39
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| Ummmmmmm... Yeah. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4265 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2010 : 06:33:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Are you a loon or what!?
Certainly not. The loon sounds far higher pitched.
Like so:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tThBGV5_JdM
Just have to disagree with me don't you. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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capnvan
Senior Scribe
USA
592 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2010 : 22:36:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
This argument is so specious as to be pointless. Arguing that the most basic division of labor is equivalent to modern or even medieval "specialization" is like arguing that a Sopwith Camel and an SR-71 were both recce planes.
Who said equivalent? The point was that the idea of specialisation was not new and neither were the observed benefits. Indeed, Charles Darwin once observed that primeval man undoubtedly specialised in food production and traded with other members of the tribe. So even the formal recognition of this effect is not all that 'modern'.
Increasing specialisation is both a cause and effect of increased economical prosperity.
And here we have problem number one with your argument: Your argument rests entirely on a hypothesis which social scientists are quite far from accepting, particularly since there is evidence to the contrary. Might the hypothesis that you're advancing be true? Possibly. But if it remains but a hypothesis, then your argument becomes problematic.
.
And so...
quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
Among other basics, a number of Stone Age societies (observed in the historical period) had such a limited division of labor as to suggest that the term wasn't useful. Neither your comments about specialization among primates nor primitive humans are correct.
That's a very flawed sample. 'Modern' Stone Age societies still remain Stone Age societies because they were for some reason exceptionally isolated for thousands of years.
Wait for it...
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
As the example of Tasmanian aboriginals aptly demonstrates, such isolation actually causes technological and sociological regression, causing skills and technology to be lost with time.
Really. You must have solved one of the more important archaeo-sociological questions in human history.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Most historical Stone Age cultures...[/quote]
{/quote}
Going to cut you off right there. "Historical" requires that there be a written record. There just aren't any from the Paleolithic.
Your arguments have been based on hypotheses. Hypotheses that aren't even universally accepted in the real world. To demand that they hold valid in a world in which scarcity doesn't necessarily exist is just childish.
I don't mind someone posting that their Realms are "this way". I do mind when someone suggests that anything else would be "illogical". |
"Saving a life, though regrettable, is a small price to pay for a whole lifetime of unfettered killing." |
Edited by - capnvan on 21 Sep 2010 22:53:21 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2010 : 00:39:19
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quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
And here we have problem number one with your argument: Your argument rests entirely on a hypothesis which social scientists are quite far from accepting, particularly since there is evidence to the contrary. Might the hypothesis that you're advancing be true? Possibly. But if it remains but a hypothesis, then your argument becomes problematic.
I'm sure you can find so-called scientists who have a problem with the idea that increased specialisation within a society is both a cause and effect of economic prosperity, but you'll need to restrict yourself to 'scientists' who don't believe in empirical evidence.
quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
Really. You must have solved one of the more important archaeo-sociological questions in human history.
I've done no such thing. All I've done is read studies which compare the technological capability of the Tasmanian aborigines at the time of contact with other civilisations with the archeological record there.
And the idea that the size of the available market sharply limits opportunities for specialisation is not contentious in any way.
quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
Going to cut you off right there. "Historical" requires that there be a written record. There just aren't any from the Paleolithic.
*sigh*
You don't think that 'historical' is acceptable usage for 'pertaining to the past [with connotations of having existed in the real world]'?
That's incredibly pedantic and irrelevant at the same time. Thanks for that.
Substitute 'pertaining to the past and attested to by archeological evidence' if it makes you feel better.
quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
Your arguments have been based on hypotheses. Hypotheses that aren't even universally accepted in the real world.
Nothing will ever be universally accepted in the real world. That does not mean we should treat the views of Flat Earthers or people who reject the idea that people respond to incentives as valid contributions to intelligent conversation.
None of my arguments about the trade of Thay have been based on genuinely disputed hypotheses. They are simple extrapolations of economic principles which are univerally accepted among every economist who is not driven by some irrational bias. Universal enough to be taught in every unversity in the world (whereas kooky ideas which reject the idea of people as driven by incentives are usually taught only by their ideologically-biased originators).
quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
To demand that they hold valid in a world in which scarcity doesn't necessarily exist is just childish.
Nothing about the Forgotten Realms even hints that it is in any way supposed to be a speculative approach towards a low-tech nology magical post-scarcity world. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Original Trade of Thay
Topic Locked
