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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3256 Posts |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Aug 2010 : 17:35:50
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| That'd be the Neverwinter that's 'now in utter ruin', right? Ah well. Given that apparently Atari are working on a new D&D game, it's possible it'll tie in to a new Neverwinter Nights. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37010 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2010 : 17:57:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
That'd be the Neverwinter that's 'now in utter ruin', right? Ah well. Given that apparently Atari are working on a new D&D game, it's possible it'll tie in to a new Neverwinter Nights.
That's what I'm thinking... Less a product for FR than a tie-in product for the Neverwinter Nights game. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 07 Aug 2010 17:57:45 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37010 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2010 : 18:18:40
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Uzzy, the premise is that "if it isn't a dungeon, it isn't worth putting in print", which is why so much got destroyed for 4e.
That, BTW, is NOT an argument for or against what they did - what is done is done, and that's the end of it.
I actually have feelings in both directions now - I am both an FR fan and a long-time GM, so I can see the 'whys' behind so many of the decisions made and changes to the setting the fanboi in me despises. For instance, as a fan I do not like what has happened to Waterdeep, but guess what? I would probably use it more now in its new grittier form. In other words, the setting has become more useful to me as a GM, even though I lost a great deal of interest as a fan.
Look at it this way - would Madmax be nearly as cool if civilization hadn't come to an end? Would we have bothered to watch the movies if it took place today, and they were all just a buncha freaks riding dune-buggys in the desert? The post-apocalyptic nature makes it interesting, and full of surprises.
Now... I am not supporting what has befallen FR by any stretch of the imagination - I loved it the way it was, but I can clearly see where their heads were at when so many of those decisions were made.
So now, if it isn't a dungeon (ruins), or has possibilities for new classes and/powers (DDi articles), it won't see print. Stories (fluff) are for the novels now, and source is for the mechanics, and I doubt we will ever see much blending again, unless something major changes. Once again, not taking a stance either way - I just don't want folks bashing products that haven't seen the light of day yet, just because "they messed-up the Realms" (in quotes because that is NOT what I am saying - it is what others might jump on).
Now to get back on-topic for a moment - I think they decided Dragonlance doesn't offer enough crunch-possibilities to make it worth their while. The major thing it has going for it are Draconians, and we already have them in core now (Dragonborn). True, you could come up with some new classes for the Various knighlty orders, and differentiate the Draconians into their three(?) branches, but otherwise, DL is 'just another medieval fantasy world'. With FR out, GH and DL would be redundant in the new, mechanics-heavy 4e world.
Whereas Ravenloft has definite possibilities, especially if combined with the rules from Ghostwalk (which seems likely). You also have room for gun rules, and things like taint and terror - all great new areas to bring the 4e rules into. Throw Incarnum on top of that and you got the makings of at least 3 new sourcebooks for RL. They were probably struggling with ways of making DL worth purchasing to the new target audience, who want crunchy bits (and DL was VERY fluff-heavy, perhaps as much as FR).
If they aren't going to bother with a 4e DL, then they should probably just license it back to Weis, but I doubt they would do that, since it would probably be 3e again. I really doubt the IP has enough value left in it for yet-another edition conversion (just like my poor, beloved Greyhawk).
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Maybe I'm missing something, here... What's the point of playing in a horror setting when you're one of the sources of horror? If you're a ghost or vampire, you've already suffered a fate worse than death...
Good point. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Aug 2010 18:22:50 |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2010 : 21:52:15
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| Ravenloft makes a lot of sense from their publishing/sales perspective, it is significantly different from the other published settings and the whole vampire/werewolf/ghost as a player character is all the rage now. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3256 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2010 : 21:56:29
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Here's a write-up on the Seminar from Critical Hits.com. The Ravenloft being released in 2011 isn't a setting, per se, but a standalone RPG that can be integrated with D&D 4E, much like how this year's Gamma World will be.
Next 'season' of D&D Encounters will be focusing on Keep on the Borderlands. I guess they don't think Greyhawk needs a Campaign Guide/Player's Guide.
The biggest part of the article is that it seems everything 4E will be inheriting 'booster packs' of random 'effects' (determined by what game the cards are for) and magic items are now going to be common, uncommon and rare. They are stressing that cards are NOT to be collected by players, but booster should be purchased and opened right at the game table to determine effects randomly when it's opened*.
quote:
The Rules Compendium is not an alternative to the core three books (PHB, DMG, MM,) They will reprint the core books when the time is right, but for now, they have plenty of copies of them in the warehouse so they don’t need to reprint them. They may also reprint them with errata.
That speaks volumes to me. Their warehouse is full of books, meaning that sales for the core books has slowed to the point where it's not being ordered by the stores to replenish their copies. This, along with the earlier bit about how D&D Essentials is being pushed to the stores/distributors as "... they are 10 key products that stores should always carry in order to supply D&D" tells me that they may reprint the core books if needed, but it doesn't look like it will be needed right now.
*Editorial: Yes, because we know that gamers would NEVER buy a whole bunch of booster packs to be able to bring the cards they REALLY want to the game to give their PC an advantage. 
It also annoys the crap out of me that they are trying to bring in a random element like that to the game and it seems mighty suspicious that they have 'come up' with this idea after Paizo's had some good success with their Critical Hits, Critical Fumble and Plot Twist cards. Which AREN'T boosters, but full decks so you just shuffle and draw as needed. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3256 Posts |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2010 : 22:11:13
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
As for the FR news... A Neverwinter Campaign Guide? Hmmm. I wonder whether this will be the start of some new publishing trend whereby Wizards will publish guides for other prominent locations in the Realms. Was it said why Neverwinter was singled out?
They need to let Ed write a Cormyr Campaign Guide, and a Waterdeep Campaign Guide. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2010 : 23:29:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
<snip>They are stressing that cards are NOT to be collected by players, but booster should be purchased and opened right at the game table to determine effects randomly when it's opened*.
So, they finally figured out how to emulate WoW's 'pay-as-you-play' paradigm? Guess the DDi didn't meet their expectations.
"Hey guys, anyone up for a game of D&D this weekend?"
"Sorry, no can do, I'm broke and can't afford another pack of cards" 
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
Ravenloft makes a lot of sense from their publishing/sales perspective, it is significantly different from the other published settings and the whole vampire/werewolf/ghost as a player character is all the rage now.
The Twilight Saga:
Vampire Boy: "I can't go out into the sunlight, because my skin shines like diamonds and I become pretty"
Necrophiliac Chick: "But you are already unbearably pretty!"
Vampire Boy: "Yes, but I would become even prettier - pity me my curse".
Necro-girl: "Is that possible? can you become prettier?"
Vamp Boy: "Why do you think we cannot see ourselves in mirrors? We would spend all daring staring at our image"
A game based on THAT nonsense? Gag me with a harpoon. Worst tripe I have ever seen since the first D&D movie. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Aug 2010 23:31:24 |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2010 : 00:08:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Maybe I'm missing something, here... What's the point of playing in a horror setting when you're one of the sources of horror? If you're a ghost or vampire, you've already suffered a fate worse than death...
Lolz it's not like this hasn't been a draw for players before.
Can you say "World of Darkness"?
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2010 : 00:09:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
LOL - maybe its 'Coke Classic'... err... I mean 'Classic Realms'.
You know, a book wherein they reprint all the stuff some other guy wrote 20 years ago and they slap their names on it... not that they have ever done that before. 
quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
That'd be the Neverwinter that's 'now in utter ruin', right? Ah well. Given that apparently Atari are working on a new D&D game, it's possible it'll tie in to a new Neverwinter Nights.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That's what I'm thinking... Less a product for FR than a tie-in product for the Neverwinter Nights game.
Being one of the three authors of the Neverwinter Campaign Setting, I will gladly assure you that it is *not* recycled stuff with a new name, it *is* a fully realized FR product, and that it depends on your definition of "utter ruin." And that's all I'm going to say about that.
Oh, and I sincerely think you guys would love it. I would not have worked on if I didn't think so.
Cheers
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Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3256 Posts |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2010 : 00:12:36
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Snip..
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage...
As for the FR news... A Neverwinter Campaign Guide? Hmmm. I wonder whether this will be the start of some new publishing trend whereby Wizards will publish guides for other prominent locations in the Realms. Was it said why Neverwinter was singled out?
...
Neverwinter Series......Bob Salvatore. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2010 : 01:25:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Ravenloft is getting the stand alone game AND will be the 2011 campaign setting. Players will be able to play ghosts, vampires and other 'baddies'.
Maybe I'm missing something, here... What's the point of playing in a horror setting when you're one of the sources of horror? If you're a ghost or vampire, you've already suffered a fate worse than death...
You'd really need to appreciate and know the history of RAVENLOFT to properly understand that principle of the setting's foundation.
In other words... in the Domains of Dread... there ARE fates worse than death. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37010 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2010 : 02:09:08
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Ravenloft is getting the stand alone game AND will be the 2011 campaign setting. Players will be able to play ghosts, vampires and other 'baddies'.
Maybe I'm missing something, here... What's the point of playing in a horror setting when you're one of the sources of horror? If you're a ghost or vampire, you've already suffered a fate worse than death...
You'd really need to appreciate and know the history of RAVENLOFT to properly understand that principle of the setting's foundation.
In other words... in the Domains of Dread... there ARE fates worse than death.
Oh, I get that... But in Ravenloft, at least as I understood it, one of the goals was to avoid that fate. It was a struggle to survive and retain your basic humanity, without becoming tainted by the Dark Powers. Automatically getting to be a vampire or a ghost seems to fly in the face of the original feel of the setting. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4273 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2010 : 02:14:25
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It does...
For me, Strahd still exists in his own little nightmare world... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37010 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2010 : 02:15:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Maybe I'm missing something, here... What's the point of playing in a horror setting when you're one of the sources of horror? If you're a ghost or vampire, you've already suffered a fate worse than death...
Lolz it's not like this hasn't been a draw for players before.
Can you say "World of Darkness"?
I remember the World of Darkness, though my interest there was in Werewolf, rather than Vampire. I was interested in Mage, as well, and had a passing interest in Changeling.
However, the World of Darkness was an entirely different setting. Sure, there were some seriously frightening vampires out there, like Baba Yaga, but the main point of the setting wasn't a struggle to survive the setting itself and those "rewarded" by the setting for their evil acts. That is the point of Ravenloft -- so getting to start off as one of those you had to survive dealing with in prior versions of the setting simply doesn't seem right.
I've never been into playing vampires, but that's just a personal thing. If being a vampire fits the tone of the setting, then it's all good. I don't think that being a PC vampire in Ravenloft fits the tone of the setting. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2010 : 02:40:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Oh, I get that... But in Ravenloft, at least as I understood it, one of the goals was to avoid that fate. It was a struggle to survive and retain your basic humanity, without becoming tainted by the Dark Powers.
Sure. But at the same time, the option of playing as a "dark force" in RAVENLOFT, has always largely been a part of the setting as well. Just not to any significant degree.
The 3e interpretation emphasised this aspect even further. That setting allowed PCs to become "tainted" by the dark perversion of the Dread Domains, by committing evil acts over a long period of time until, finally, the characters eventually began serving as agents of the Dark Powers.
I'm assuming such an option has been maintained in 4e RAVENLOFT, given what brief details we've received so far.
quote:
Automatically getting to be a vampire or a ghost seems to fly in the face of the original feel of the setting.
Not really. Similarly themed options were presented in past RAVENLOFT books. So I don't really see this as anything new. The only real concern I have, is that these options will be more readily [or easily] accessible -- side-stepping the traditional long dark slide into perversion that has marked such tainted characters before, in prior RL-lore. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 08 Aug 2010 02:48:31 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2010 : 02:46:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That is the point of Ravenloft -- so getting to start off as one of those you had to survive dealing with in prior versions of the setting simply doesn't seem right.
But do we know that's the case? That you, as a PC, are allowed to start off as one of these types of undead? Hmmm.
I'm thinking that these details about playing as ghosts or vampires in 4e RAVENLOFT will be similar to what I was just talking about above, with respect to the 3e books. It's an eventual change... a reflection of the character succumbing to the influence of the Demiplane, rather than fighting against it.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3256 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2010 : 03:09:19
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That is the point of Ravenloft -- so getting to start off as one of those you had to survive dealing with in prior versions of the setting simply doesn't seem right.
But do we know that's the case? That you, as a PC, are allowed to start off as one of these types of undead? Hmmm.
I'm thinking that these details about playing as ghosts or vampires in 4e RAVENLOFT will be similar to what I was just talking about above, with respect to the 3e books. It's an eventual change... a reflection of the character succumbing to the influence of the Demiplane, rather than fighting against it.
Alas, Sage, I don't think it's going to be a slow taint to becoming these creatures.
quote:
From the Critical Hits synopsis
Then in the 4th quarter, there will be a Ravenloft game released, where PCs can play Vampires, Werewolf, as well as the usual character options. While keeping most of the information about this hidden for now, they did say there would be some interesting new physical components to the game of some kind. It will also be both a standalone game as well as fully useable in core D&D.
Since it's being set up like Gamma World, and they are toting Gamma World as a quick and easy character creation (choose two mutations and go!), I'm thinking that it's exactly like what Wooly fears. A game where you can pit Werewolves against Vampires against Ghosts. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2010 : 04:27:55
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Which isn't the old Ravenloft AT ALL.
They've basically just taken the name they already own, used some of the old locales with some minor map changes, and slapped it onto a whole new game.
You know...like they did with another setting that shall remain nameless.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Being one of the three authors of the Neverwinter Campaign Setting, I will gladly assure you that it is *not* recycled stuff with a new name, it *is* a fully realized FR product, and that it depends on your definition of "utter ruin." And that's all I'm going to say about that.
Oh, and I sincerely think you guys would love it. I would not have worked on if I didn't think so.
First, I was quoted somewhat out-of-context - I actually took the stance of 'wait and see' in regards to the Neverwinter product. The comment you quoted was aimed at 'some unknown FR product' (which the Neverwinter product was at the time I posted that), and although I poked-fun at a hypothetical 'Realms Classic' product, I also said I'd probably buy it. 
As for the actual product that has been announced, I was somewhat interested in it, and am now more so with what little you could hint at. If it was OGL/3e I could guarantee you I'd buy it, but if I read good reviews I will most-likely purchase it regardless just for the lore. I'm starting to take a second look at 4e, now that the bile has settled over the post-apocalyptic Realms. I doubt I'd ever run it as-is, but then again, I've never run any system without tweaking the hell out of it.
I'm am really (non-sarcastically) looking forward to a wonderful FR product Erik, and wish you and WotC much success with it.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Aug 2010 04:28:32 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2010 : 06:17:49
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Oh I understand, Markus--I'm just sort of suggesting that we reserve the negative witticisms for when we have more data to be negative and witty about.
Also, we know basically nothing about the Ravenloft product, so let's reserve judgment on that as well, ok?
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Gambit
Learned Scribe
110 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2010 : 01:57:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
SOOOOOOOO MUCH JEALOUSY
I could die happy after partaking in this. |
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Gen Con 2010
