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Caolin
Senior Scribe
768 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Nov 2010 : 07:49:37
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I'm reading through Whisper of Venom and this thought popped into my head. This race hates dragons with a deep passion. So why is it that they call themselves Dragonborn? I can see other races calling them this. But I would imagine that they would find a different name not associated with Dragons. I think this is a missed opportunity for an interesting dramatic device.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2010 : 08:38:16
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| Simple: they are humanoid dragons. :D |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2010 : 10:57:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
I'm reading through Whisper of Venom and this thought popped into my head. This race hates dragons with a deep passion. So why is it that they call themselves Dragonborn? I can see other races calling them this. But I would imagine that they would find a different name not associated with Dragons. I think this is a missed opportunity for an interesting dramatic device.
This has bugged me since 4E was inflicted on the Realms. The 3E dragonborn were a separate race, and the name made sense for them. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2010 : 11:07:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
I'm reading through Whisper of Venom...
I envy you. Our bookstores don't have it until next month. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2010 : 14:10:20
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Totally non-canonical, but:
Said the half-elf bard to the dragonborn paladin, "Wazzup, my Dragger?"
Quoth the dragonborn paladin in kind, "Actually, YOU can't call me that. That's specist."
In all seriousness, you raise an excellent point. I could envision dragonborn being just as put out about being called such a thing as real world people dislike racial epithets.
Some more "in the know" in my FR campaign call the dragonborn sorcerer in the party by a term I invented: "dhrakar," which roughly means "heir of dragons" in the Draconic tongue, sort of in the sense of "inheriting the world FROM dragons," rather than being their scions.
I for one would be very interested in a name you guys come up with.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2010 : 14:24:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Some more "in the know" in my FR campaign call the dragonborn sorcerer in the party by a term I invented: "dhrakar," which roughly means "heir of dragons" in the Draconic tongue, sort of in the sense of "inheriting the world FROM dragons," rather than being their scions.
I for one would be very interested in a name you guys come up with.
Draghamed. I like the sound of it, kinda 'tough.' |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2010 : 17:07:21
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I'm with others here, and I'm glad this came up (since I plan to run a game again REAL soon). Wooly is 100% correct that it makes little sense, but I hadn't thought about it myself until now.
'Dragonborn' would be a derogatory term to them, although most common folk (who haven't associated with them) wouldn't not know this. I have learned recently myself that it is possible to insult someone without having any idea why.
That would be the 'light' version of the specist label, with 'Dragonspawn' being the more virulent version.
'Children of the Dragon' would sound all nicey-nice, but it equates to calling someone RW 'a person of color'. Scaley-folk would also be frowned upon, I imagine.
My vote to them calling themselves Dhrakar, which Erik suggested - I rather like that.
This is exactly why I asked for the name of the continent that Returned Abeir is on, and Ed suggested Laerakond, which Richard Baker agreed was a great name for it. Rich also commented that it was an excellent question, and wondered why no-one thought of that during the creation process.
Why the hell would anyone call themselves something different, in reference to how the rest of the world sees them? If I moved to England, would I be referred to as a 'Returned European? And that's only after a hundred years, give or take. Only the rest of Toril would call it 'Returned Abeir' (or dragonborn, for that matter).
I could also see them using that term to insult each other (but if a person of another race were nearby and used it as well, both would turn on him). We should always try to picture similar RW situations when we are simulating a living environment for our players (and readers, I would think).
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Nov 2010 18:43:25 |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
768 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2010 : 19:57:30
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| I too like the name Dhrakar, but I always imagined that they would call themselves "The People" in whatever tongue they spoke. But now that I think of it, don't the Elves call themselves that? I feel that little details such as this are more important than most people would assume. It would help greatly for people like me to accept them as a Realms race that was unceremoniously plopped into our laps. |
Edited by - Caolin on 05 Nov 2010 19:59:37 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2010 : 00:25:17
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@Caolin: Right on. That's why I was thinking "Heirs of the Dragon," to represent their cultural drive to inherit the world from their corrupt forebears (dragons).
It might really just mean "Heirs," because when the dragonborn say it, it's so obvious to them what they mean, but it's translated "heirs of the dragon" so people have some context, much in the way your average human commoner wouldn't know what you meant by "the People" out of context.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2010 : 00:37:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
I too like the name Dhrakar, but I always imagined that they would call themselves "The People" in whatever tongue they spoke. But now that I think of it, don't the Elves call themselves that? I feel that little details such as this are more important than most people would assume. It would help greatly for people like me to accept them as a Realms race that was unceremoniously plopped into our laps.
I think just about every race calls itself "The People".  |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2010 : 00:39:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Some more "in the know" in my FR campaign call the dragonborn sorcerer in the party by a term I invented: "dhrakar," which roughly means "heir of dragons" in the Draconic tongue, sort of in the sense of "inheriting the world FROM dragons," rather than being their scions.
That's a good name and translation. I'm also leaning towards something like "d'harnn," which I just made up. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2010 : 00:41:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
This is exactly why I asked for the name of the continent that Returned Abeir is on, and Ed suggested Laerakond, which Richard Baker agreed was a great name for it. Rich also commented that it was an excellent question, and wondered why no-one thought of that during the creation process.
I've got a thought on that, but this is not the thread for it. 
I've also wondered why the FRCG mentions the Cult of the Dragon having some success recruiting dragonborn. These guys hate dragons, so they join a group that focuses on serving undead ones?!? 
(That's ignoring the fact that with Sammaster truly destroyed and the Cult taking some hits during the last dragonrage, I'm amazed they're still going strong a century later) |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 06 Nov 2010 00:43:17 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2010 : 00:51:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Some more "in the know" in my FR campaign call the dragonborn sorcerer in the party by a term I invented: "dhrakar," which roughly means "heir of dragons" in the Draconic tongue, sort of in the sense of "inheriting the world FROM dragons," rather than being their scions.
Oooh! That's going in my notebooks for possible campaign inclusion.
In the meantime, I've been suggesting an alternative based on lore from the "Dragonborn" entry in 3e's Races of the Dragon:- "tibur 'en 'drugan." "Tibur" is a canonical term, meaning "born as," while "'en 'drugan" is a term I've used in my Realms before when describing the various draconic folk. It means, literally, "those forged in fire." |
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Edited by - The Sage on 06 Nov 2010 02:33:34 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2010 : 03:26:49
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| I dunno... "'en 'drugan" is a little too close to dragon for my liking. Just like "dhrakar" is a little too close to drake for me. It's a good word, but still just a little too close to the source. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2010 : 04:19:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I dunno... "'en 'drugan" is a little too close to dragon for my liking. Just like "dhrakar" is a little too close to drake for me. It's a good word, but still just a little too close to the source.
Well, as I said, "drugan" has an established basis in my Realms, though it isn't really tied to the concept of the "dragon" terminology. "Drugan" is entirely more ancient and, possibly, a derivative sarrukh definition. I haven't really decided.
...
Interestingly, Wooly's aversion of "drugan" has got me thinking about other possible terms from my Realms to connect with the canonical "tibur" term. So, I suppose "da 'harkann" [literally, "born of cold blood"] is a possibility, though that is usually only used to define the scaly-folk occupants of a successor-sarrukh state from around the -11,700 DR timeframe. ... Thus, "tibur da' harkann" could mean "born as cold blood."
It works for me, but at the same time, reminds me of EBERRON's "Dhakann." Hmmm. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2010 : 00:04:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I dunno... "'en 'drugan" is a little too close to dragon for my liking. Just like "dhrakar" is a little too close to drake for me. It's a good word, but still just a little too close to the source.
That's part of my thinking process, that "dhraka" (where humans get the word "drake") is a draconic word meaning "lesser/stunted child" and best applied to the more animal-like drakes of the Realms (so it's an insult to call a dragon a drake). The dragonborn have appropriated the term, altered (by addition of a hard "R" sound) into something more like "superior children."
Can you guys believe I sit around and think about these things?
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2010 : 03:44:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I dunno... "'en 'drugan" is a little too close to dragon for my liking. Just like "dhrakar" is a little too close to drake for me. It's a good word, but still just a little too close to the source.
That's part of my thinking process, that "dhraka" (where humans get the word "drake") is a draconic word meaning "lesser/stunted child" and best applied to the more animal-like drakes of the Realms (so it's an insult to call a dragon a drake). The dragonborn have appropriated the term, altered (by addition of a hard "R" sound) into something more like "superior children."
Can you guys believe I sit around and think about these things?
Cheers
That's a good explanation... But it still doesn't work for me. The dragonborn of 4E are described as utterly hating dragons... So I'd imagine they'd want some word or phrase that entirely divorced them from dragons.
Now for the 3E dragonborn, it's a wonderfully suitable word. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2010 : 04:01:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I dunno... "'en 'drugan" is a little too close to dragon for my liking. Just like "dhrakar" is a little too close to drake for me. It's a good word, but still just a little too close to the source.
That's part of my thinking process, that "dhraka" (where humans get the word "drake") is a draconic word meaning "lesser/stunted child" and best applied to the more animal-like drakes of the Realms (so it's an insult to call a dragon a drake). The dragonborn have appropriated the term, altered (by addition of a hard "R" sound) into something more like "superior children."
Can you guys believe I sit around and think about these things?
Cheers
That's a good explanation... But it still doesn't work for me. The dragonborn of 4E are described as utterly hating dragons... So I'd imagine they'd want some word or phrase that entirely divorced them from dragons.
Now for the 3E dragonborn, it's a wonderfully suitable word.
Yeah, well, Races of the Dragon makes that apparent. Regrettably, the 4e Dragonborn tome doesn't elaborate on this particular aspect all that much.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2010 : 05:31:58
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| I call them plaguechanged lizzard man |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2010 : 07:45:54
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Don't know how many of you play World of Warcraft and are familiar with its story, but this reminds me of why the leader of the orcs in warcraft keeps the name "Thrall". He was a slave, and his owner gave him that name to remind him of it every day. He chose to keep it after escaping as a reminder of where he had come from and what he had endured, and so that when he finally got even with his former master, he would remember as well.
Could be some of that mentality going on, and that dragonborn have racial daddy issues. Their race was created by dragons; they want to hold onto that as a reminder of their hate, so that when they get their hands on the dragons, they'll remember as well, that they are the authors of their own destruction.
My two cents, anyway. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2010 : 15:02:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Don't know how many of you play World of Warcraft and are familiar with its story, but this reminds me of why the leader of the orcs in warcraft keeps the name "Thrall". He was a slave, and his owner gave him that name to remind him of it every day. He chose to keep it after escaping as a reminder of where he had come from and what he had endured, and so that when he finally got even with his former master, he would remember as well.
Could be some of that mentality going on, and that dragonborn have racial daddy issues. Their race was created by dragons; they want to hold onto that as a reminder of their hate, so that when they get their hands on the dragons, they'll remember as well, that they are the authors of their own destruction.
My two cents, anyway.
I should think that a mirror would serve ample reminder of their heritage. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4430 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2010 : 16:10:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Don't know how many of you play World of Warcraft and are familiar with its story, but this reminds me of why the leader of the orcs in warcraft keeps the name "Thrall". He was a slave, and his owner gave him that name to remind him of it every day. He chose to keep it after escaping as a reminder of where he had come from and what he had endured, and so that when he finally got even with his former master, he would remember as well.
A little off topic, but I read the story of Thrull in a large World of Warcraft novella (had like 4 different stories in it) and it was a pretty damn good story. The book was called Warcraft Archive |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2010 : 19:10:48
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In my HB cosmology, I call the level of beings above the (prim)Ordials 'Drękon' (literally translating in the Primal language as "beings of immense of power').
Since I've just decided to incorporate Erik's bit into my worldview, I've decided to name them Dhrękons instead, to keep a similar theme going. Now the prefix 'Dhra' means 'of the dragon' and 'kar' means 'progeny/offspring' so everything works - Dhrakar becomes Children of the dragon, or heirs of the dragon (depending upon the translation - no translation is ever perfect).
So humans might take it to simple mean 'children of the dragon' (or shorten it simply to Dragonborn), but it is a somewhat inaccurate translation. To the Dragonborn, they say 'heirs' - and in the Draconian mindset 'Inheritors' means "they who have the right to their parent's legacy" (it has a more forceful connotation).
Ergo, both translations are somewhat accurate, but are off by the mindset of the race making the translation. If human language occasionally runs into problems with accurate translations, can you imagine how much harder it must be when dealing with an alien mindset?
Just my 2¢
Addendum: As for the Dragonborn that aren't behaving like Abeirran Dragonborn should, there are several fixes for that. First off, you can just say they were 'the other' Dragonborn that pre-existed on Toril (same species, two different histories), or you could even say they were the Khaastas. In my own version, I blended together the lore for the old-school DB and the Khaastas (its posted somewhere on the WotC site awhile back), so that works for me just fine.
Or you could simply go with the fact that every race has it's self-haters, and any you read about that are following/worshiping Dragons are the 'outcasts' of dragonborn society. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Nov 2010 19:11:08 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2010 : 10:24:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Don't know how many of you play World of Warcraft and are familiar with its story, but this reminds me of why the leader of the orcs in warcraft keeps the name "Thrall". He was a slave, and his owner gave him that name to remind him of it every day. He chose to keep it after escaping as a reminder of where he had come from and what he had endured, and so that when he finally got even with his former master, he would remember as well.
Could be some of that mentality going on, and that dragonborn have racial daddy issues. Their race was created by dragons; they want to hold onto that as a reminder of their hate, so that when they get their hands on the dragons, they'll remember as well, that they are the authors of their own destruction.
My two cents, anyway.
I should think that a mirror would serve ample reminder of their heritage.
Well, really they don't look that much like dragons. They're reptilian, obviously, but their snouts are different, they don't have the same frills, the same horns, or for the most part the same colorations as the major species of dragons. They're also fairly thick and stocky, where as most species of dragons are slim and serpentine.
Dragonborn probably see as many physical similarities between themselves and dragons as we do between ourselves and apes. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2010 : 17:26:28
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| I've met a few people who I thought would find greater kinship with Apes then humans. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
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Why do Dragonborn call themselves Dragonborn?
