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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 22:45:42
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I think this would be very plausible. That mortals could ad least understand and manipulate magic up till level 12... and beyound mortality higher levels could be possible, and again when we enter the outer multiverse... beings like (from Marvel: Galactus or the Phenix Force) could wield even more!
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2011 : 16:51:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
OT here, but I think you'd like the ancient TSR D&D Immortals ruleset.
This one has some excellent monsters, wish they included them later in PS |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 15:06:47
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| Can it be downloaded or do one have to buy it online? |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 18:04:44
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| only illegally, or you could look at some auction site, but considering the prices you're better off with the Immortalshandbook, as far as I remember it goes a few levels above Ao's |
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creyzi4zb12
Learned Scribe
Philippines
129 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2011 : 18:22:18
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| The Weave/Shadow-weave is not the only magic source...nuff said. |
orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1607 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2011 : 11:53:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
A long time ago I created levels 10-15 magic, long before I read about netheril (or FR became a published setting). This is how I worked it:
Spell Being
Level Level
0 Anyone
1-9 Mortals
10 Demi-powers
11 Lesser Powers
12 Intermediate Powers
13 Greater powers
14 High Powers (Pantheonic leaders)
15 Ordials (Over powers/Primordials)
Are you considering Undead as "mortals"? Maybe their virtual immortality could allow them to go beyond this border... And here I'm not considering undead powers, just some powerful undead, specially those that (un)live for millenia (like Larloch, Wulgreth, Sarrukh undead, and demi-liches) |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 25 Feb 2011 11:55:11 |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2011 : 03:46:46
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I know it might be wrong of me to bring up an old thread, but something stirred in me, and I had to.
When I was reading through a thread earlier this evening, I got the idea of going beyond the weave, beyond what 99% of the inhabitants of Fearûn believe to be the only source of magic. If the weave is a web, that blankets Toril, then ofc something is on the other side. But since I have been a long time member of that 99%, I have some trouble imagining what that would be.
But eluding from all of this that the weave is a confinement. If magic is without end, then too the possibilities, and this must go for mortals, undead and divine alike. And the weave might make spellcasting easy, but it also limits so much of its possibilities. IMHO you can learn all there is to learn about the weave; or its combinations of manipulations of energies. If
you want more you would have to go beyond. Am I wrong??? Beyond what we might think is possible to contain in a mortal body, but if you are given the right keys, you can, as a mortal, unlock the vastness of magic. True?
We can assume that the weave and the ban of Mystra is there for our own good... history teaches us that. But even thou it would take the all the wizards, and sages and loremasters of fearun, studying for 100.000 years to get there we would get there. At some point the great equation which is the weave would be solved.
Go beyond that... not so sure. I think that if we go beyond that of the weave, we have again rules, but these rules are not there to prevent another folly of an arcanist. The rules at this place are there to hold the fabric of all creation. And unless you tamper with the work of its creator, you are free to act. IMHO that is.
Can you bring this to Toril?... absolutely! Can Mystra stop you?... absolutely!... Would she?... probably yes! For the greater good. So taking this point to the extreme... We live under the caretaking of a divine being who does not allow mages the whole truth. And as weird as it might seem, im reminded of the third Reich. Don’t ask me why, but it’s something to do with not being allowed "true" magic... maybe North Korea is better. Like how they can’t watch CNN and stuff like that...
anywho... im rambling... better stop!
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Edited by - Nicolai Withander on 27 May 2011 03:52:52 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2011 : 05:09:43
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Mytra placed the Ban partly because she could no longer trust the judgement of most mages. If her own Chosen, who were tested and proven to be "good," could be lured by ambition, power, and ascendance, [Sammaster and that one from one of the Elminster books whom Mystra's avatar killed], how much more the rest of the wizards in Toril? Damage had been done to the land itself by extremely powerful magic used irresponsibly. It wrecked havoc to several civilizations, and killed millions of people. Mystra is sick and tired of that. Hence, the Ban. Even with the presence of the Ban, same occurrences are still present, though probably less in magnitude and scope compared to the time when there was no Ban. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37011 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2011 : 05:14:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Mytra placed the Ban partly because she could no longer trust the judgement of most mages. If her own Chosen, who were tested and proven to be "good," could be lured by ambition, power, and ascendance, [Sammaster and that one from one of the Elminster books whom Mystra's avatar killed], how much more the rest of the wizards in Toril? Damage had been done to the land itself by extremely powerful magic used irresponsibly. It wrecked havoc to several civilizations, and killed millions of people. Mystra is sick and tired of that. Hence, the Ban. Even with the presence of the Ban, same occurrences are still present, though probably less in magnitude and scope compared to the time when there was no Ban.
The Ban had nothing to do with her Chosen. The Ban was one of the first things Mystra did -- having Chosen (especially Sammy) came long after that. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2011 : 05:32:36
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Right. I forgot the timeline. But the essence is there: she wants to limit destruction as much as she can. For while magic betters the lives of many of Toril's denizens, it's also a tool for destruction. And the latter use has been repeatedly done by several mages.
I'm saying this in a general sense, though probably we can just blame Karsus and he alone. By placing the Ban, Mystra in way ensures no mortal would ever dare steal her divinity. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2011 : 14:13:35
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| The ban was only on 10+ level spells, it's possible to cast Karsus Avatar through epic magic |
z455t |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2011 : 00:34:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I agree that Mystra, and certainly Azuth, would have knowledge of every spell in the Realms...
Even before they are created??? Thats like knowing all the combinations of magical possibilities before they have been tried!
Ps: I don’t like epic spells. They seem way to much a game mechanic rather that a "real" thing of the realms.
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Edited by - Nicolai Withander on 28 May 2011 00:36:56 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3773 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2011 : 07:47:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I'm saying this in a general sense, though probably we can just blame Karsus and he alone. By placing the Ban, Mystra in way ensures no mortal would ever dare steal her divinity.
-Blame Mystra for having a faulty product to begin with! When there's a blackout, you don't blame the last guy who turned his AC on, causing the system to overload and everyone to lose power; you blame the power company!
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Ps: I don’t like epic spells. They seem way to much a game mechanic rather that a "real" thing of the realms.
-Eh, yes and no. The mechanics for 3e Epic Magic differ from normal spells, which True 10+ Level spells would have been, in 3e. Most notably, Epic Magic has all those mitigating factors that cause those spells to be a lot more detrimental to the casters- based on the True 10+ Level spells from Netheril: Empire of Magic, there weren't really individual repercussions to casting those spells. Epic Magic and True 10+ Level spells are, in effect, the same things, in that they are really powerful spells. They represent two different ways to reach that end goal, though. With True 10+ Level, you cast the spell, the Weave did the hard work, and boom, the spell is cast. With Epic Magic, you cast the spell, your own soul, body, or whatever you want to call it (EXP penalties, death, all those things as presented in Epic Level Handbook partially powers the spell, and the Weave does the rest. Epic Magic basically is "safe on the Weave", because of that, whereas those True 10+ Level spells were not. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 28 May 2011 07:52:38 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2011 : 08:26:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I agree that Mystra, and certainly Azuth, would have knowledge of every spell in the Realms...
Even before they are created??? Thats like knowing all the combinations of magical possibilities before they have been tried!
Ps: I don’t like epic spells. They seem way to much a game mechanic rather that a "real" thing of the realms.
A greater deity is supposed to be omnipotent and omniscient in all things concerning his/her portfolio, right? Being the goddess of magic, Mystra is supposed to know everything that pertains to magic--spells created yesterday, now, and tomorrow. But is this really the case? Did Ed shed some light on this? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2011 : 22:56:18
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| Well that’s basically what this about... If Mystra knows all spell ever/of all time, then she would also know what the weave can do. All that it can do. All the millions of magical effects... But this also means, As have been my believe from the beginning, that magic as a general idea, is a fixed "size". And if I’m right. One could learn all there is to learn, and by so would know all and have no more weave related magical knowledge left to learn. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2011 : 14:09:53
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| No it does not necessarily. Infinity is something that we (mortla humans) can't really comprehend, so we don't know if a god can't know everything there is to know about magic even if magic is infinite and especially if this god is magic |
Edited by - _Jarlaxle_ on 16 Jun 2011 14:11:39 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37011 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2011 : 17:01:19
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| Not only that, but knowing all spells ever means she knows spells that have been or will be created -- but if no one ever creates a spell that does something, then the spell does not and will not ever exist, and thus she doesn't know it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2011 : 20:56:30
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Whatever spell a wizard creates in the future is already in Mystra's inventory. So, technically, it is not new. That is supposed to be the premise if we take into account that she is omniscient within the bounds of her portfolio. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1885 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2011 : 20:46:10
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Sorry if responding to this thread almost a month after the last reply is bad form...feel free to slap me down.
There seems to be much speculation along with references to canon sources as to what/who Mystra, the Weave, and magic in general is. The bottom line answer is...it's whatever you want it to be. That said, hear is my 2 cents:
Magic is infinite in its variety and so there is no true limit as to what can be discovered. As stated earlier its only limit is the imagination (a hallmark of fantasy RPG yes?) and thus cannot be truly limited in a sense. Magic does (and should) operate within guidelines (remember that Mystra governs the use of magic...she seeks to promote innovation while preventing the destruction of the Realms). Also understand that certain levels of magic should require one to move beyond mortality (one must be a deity or uber-lich like Larloch).
Just FYI for how I approached the various incarnations of Mystra. Mystryl was a CN deity whose portfolio included all of those encompassed by the gods of magic and knowledge as well as others (creativity for one... now under Lathander's portfolio). Regardless of what canon says of the matter I look at Mystryl as seeing that mortals where taking magic too far (culminating in Karsus) and needed a lesson as to the broader effects of magic. She chose to sacrifice herself (I think this is perfectly reasonable given that the gods are required to promote/maintian their portfolios no matter what) and so made plans for her death. Now...she didnt actually die (it only appeared so to most mortals) but rather she reinvented herself (or reincarnated as it were) into a new deity.
The new deity (who was called Mystral in my campaign) was LN and said 'Hey mages! You can't just go around casting spells all pell-mell! There are rules in this house youngsters! Now sit down and eat your spinach." She took a more orderly and controlled approach, limited the use of more powerful magic (although she eventually loosened some of these rules and allowed limited 10th-level magic use). Magic flourished and you get the Realms created in Ed's image (woohoo).
In my campaign, Mystral saw a further need to preserve the vitality of magic (seeing a need to balance out the chaotic with the lawful) and allowed herself to 'die' again and reformed as Mystra (a N deity in my campaign). It is clear that she knew of her impending death (but I maintain that it was a plan all along).
Just to answer a few questions that will probably spawn from my response. Death in this sense is more of a reboot...this explains why Azuth and El had to assist the new goddess by tranferring their knowledge to her (and is one reason why the Chosen were created).
Also, this process required a special avatar, what I call an incarnation (more of a 'hidden' avatar that is actually born into the world, is fairly unaware of its legacy, and whose powers are mostly locked until its destiny is realized...which does not have to be the rebooting of a deity).
The Nature of the Weave: In my campaign, the Weave is just a model used to describe the interaction of magic with 'reality' as it were. It is not an actual construct in the strictest sense of the word (one does not peer into the Weave and see an actual web, lattice, or woven basket...if this is done one would see vibrant colors surrounding/penetrating most everything). Yes it is similar to the Force but certainly not identical to that idea (one interacts very differently with magic than the Force in the Star Wars universe).
Also, I do not have 'alternative' magic systems in my campaign (Maztican magic taps the weave, it is simply described differently in that culture). AND THERE IS NO SHADOW WEAVE IN MY GAME. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1885 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2011 : 21:04:13
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My response to the omniscience/omnipotence of deities within their portfolios:
I don't think regarding the gods as absolutely omniscient or omnipotent within their portfolios is good business. Certainly they are far more knowledgeable and/or powerful than most mortals (this should become more and more true as deities gain divine ranks...if you use that system-I think its unimportant). I do think that Mystra should contain all of the knowledge of magic currently known AND lost to the Realms (i.e. the sum of all magical lore ever discovered up to the current moment in the Realms).
I also think that she should have a working knowledge of some magic as yet undiscovered...but not complete knowledge of all undiscovered magic. This would explain why she was enamoured of Sammaster and other creative wizards but still allow her an 'edge' so to speak.
Also bear in mind, when it comes to a deity being defeated on some level by another god, even when it concerns the losing god's portfolio, the deities are on a completely different playing field than we mortals. Consider it a divine chess game. Mystra may be able to see 12 moves ahead of Shar when it comes to the Weave, but Shar has her own abilites to mask her moves and can still pull off a victory against her. She is just at a slight disadvantage when directly challenging her authority over the Weave. And the initiative of the match falls to the challenger (who has the first move in the match).
Just my 2 (more) cents. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Milith holder of HB8
Seeker
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2011 : 03:10:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The question is not how much Mystra knows, but how much Larloch does.
I'm pretty sure anything that Larloch knows, Mystra knows. As per the Nether Scrolls, you do realize that Mystra gave Larloch a few copies, right? The Nether Scrolls didn't teach you magical spells--they taught the basis of magic. It would be best to say that the goddess of magic understands the basis of all magic, but that magic is in a sense, unlimited in what you might be able to do with it.
quote:
The goddesses of magic definitely did not know everything in their area of control/influence. Mystryl (in the time before Azuth) was destroyed by a spell cast by a mortal magic user; she was clearly unaware of (and powerless to stop) the magic.
Actually, you can't say that with the evidence at hand. All we know is that at the very least, she didn't know he was going to cast it on her. That doesn't mean she didn't know that the spell could or did exist.
Although I'd agree that she probably didn't know that said spell existed.
quote:
Midnight-Mystra 2.0 was completely flatfooted (and killed) by the Spellplague even after powerful magic users had already divined her fate with fair accuracy; she obviously wasn't aware of their spells.
Again, we know very little about that. Simply being aware of a prophecy doesn't mean you can avoid it.
quote:
(Oddly, Mystra 1.0 may have somehow sensed her impending powerlessness and the Time of Troubles, since she had prepared for centuries by caching fragments of her power in Chosen and other vessels, though it might have just been prudence/paranoia, and it didn't really help her anyhow.)
Creating a Chosen requires you to invest a small amount of deity power into that mortal, since you are effectively beginning the process into transforming them into a demigod. Even if you aren't, it's still suggested to require some degree of power.
As per the ToT, she didn't sense anything. She hid away a small portion of her essence in Midnight because she was afraid that when Ao summoned them, there might be trouble. She was being prudent.
quote:
There is of course all of the non-Weave magic that Mystra cannot perceive: elven High Magic, True or High Magic (Dweomercrafting), Maztican Feather Magic, and (pre-SP) Shadow Weave are a few alternate systems.
Mystra probably understands Weave magic to its near-fullest extent. She clearly doesn't understand all spells though, as she went to Azuth in Elminster in Hell for an idea of how to get him out of there (ie, spells and some such). Mind you, that was Midnight.
quote:
I agree that Mystra, and certainly Azuth, would have knowledge of every spell in the Realms. And Deneir or Oghma likely has knowledge of every written work in the Realms. But there are limits, Deities & Demigods provided rules which roughly outlined the limits of a god's power. The god (or an avatar) needs to be within a certain proximity, and gains only a general sense of things of interest, and must concentrate to learn particular details. Karsus was not only a magic-user, but in fact the most powerful one in the world, yet Mystryl obviously didn't see what he was doing.
Actually, Oghma doesn't know everything within the Realms. The fact that he trades information with other gods such as Mask (even if he is reluctant to do so) suggests that he doesn't. However, he does have all power over knowledge, so if he wanted to deny you say, the ability to record knowledge, he can.
Such as this, Mystryl probably didn't know that Karsus was preparing to cast the spell, even if she knew it existed. Remember, Karsus only went into action because of that one archwizard vanishing sending waves of panic through Netheril.
The gods mental functions works where they can 'hear' everything that has to do with them, but they don't 'listen' since doing so would be almost impossible for them without driving them mad. This is probably why greater deities outsource lesser deities; cuts down on the burden of prayers and such by dividing up the responsibility.
Notice that early pantheons in the time of Netheril had much larger portfolios, but smaller territory to govern. Yet more modern day pantheons cover larger areas, but have less portfolios per deity and more servants.
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Hey, babe, see my shiny teeth as I smile my very best wolf smile- Ed Greenwood. |
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shadowni87
Learned Scribe
USA
111 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2011 : 21:30:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I would say that no, Mystra doesn't know everything...nor does Azuth or all the gods combined.
Imagination is without bounds, so that which is boundless can't be defined...and thus would have no end.
Now, I'm sure there are basic principles that all magic is founded on; but even to these there are possibly endless variations, additions, substitutions...
Now, for if everything can be known, then by default magic would have an end; but, as I've said...I don't see how there can be an end to something that is without end in possible variety.
concerning this original post, if a skilled wizard was to surprise./trick a god/goddess could he possibly take down a diety???? |
Libera animus omnium fidelium defunctorum de poenis obscurum |
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Idamar of Thay
Acolyte
19 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2011 : 00:52:34
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Gods are not the all-powerful controllers of their domains, but rather highly powerful overseers. We've seen plenty of times that Deities in the Realms are very limited.
According to Faiths and Avatars, whenever a spell is created, Mystra instantly knows it. This would likely means that she knows all the spells devised by Larloch, Telamont, Szass Tam and...yes very likely Karsus's spell
I have a theory that Mystril knew about his plans but purposefully did not interfere. Mystril probably knew the limits of the spell and knew it wouldn't last long and decided to let him try, in the interest of fostering any spellcrafting. After all, if Jergal willingly let 3 reckless arrogant mortals grab his portfolio and become a simple servant for the fun of it, why wouldn't Mystril do the likewise?
@shadowni87: Gods have been surprised/tricked/taken down by mortals often enough so...yes. |
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Does magic have an end
