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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Apr 2011 : 04:23:22
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Heh. Paul, Ed says:
Thank you!
He also says:
Dennis, behave! You don't have to like our stuff, but your point has been made. Over and over. A little courtesy, please.
(A comment, BTW, with which I heartily concur. Not everyone's tastes coincide, and thank goodness for that.)
love,
THO |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2011 : 05:27:16
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Heh. Paul, Ed says:
Thank you!
He also says:
Dennis, behave! You don't have to like our stuff, but your point has been made. Over and over. A little courtesy, please.
(A comment, BTW, with which I heartily concur. Not everyone's tastes coincide, and thank goodness for that.)
love,
THO
Yes, and I'll just add the friendly Mod backing to this as well.
We appreciate that each and every scribe has different tastes when it comes to Realms-fiction, but such commentary can sometimes prove to be misinterpreted by some of our less-frequently visiting scribes. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 28 Apr 2011 05:29:22 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2011 : 08:44:47
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Okay, I will.
It's just that this thread brings to the surface some not so old memories. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2011 : 12:08:08
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| I enjoyed this novel. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Thieran
Learned Scribe
Germany
293 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2011 : 13:32:04
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| I happen to read it for the first time as well at the moment, and I am enjoying it more and more. |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
662 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2011 : 21:49:42
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| I wonder why they picked spoiled nobles as heroes for the novel |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2011 : 04:27:20
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That's their idea of low-level characters, I guess. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2011 : 02:44:32
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Heh. The nobles aren't who Ed thinks the heroes of the novel are. His picks are the Dyre sisters.
And Dennis, the nobles ARE low-level characters, in the game sense.
As to why Elaine crafted a plot with them as the protagonists, I SUSPECT (from things I've heard Ed say over the years) that it had to do with exploring the clash of different classes (idle rich nobles vs. hard-working guildmaster's daughters), coming of age (as in: the nobles starting to "grow up"), and showing us Waterdeep (their wealth and social habits made it easy to show many places in, and sides of, the city to the reader without the far-fetched, implausible explanations that might have been necessary if other sorts of protagonists had been employed).
I enjoyed the result. I'd probably have enjoyed the full-length version even more. It has stood up to several re-readings for me, and every time I enjoy the Elaith scenes and the glimpses of Palace life more.
love,
THO |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2011 : 04:36:26
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Oh, THO, I wasn't being sarcastic when I said it. I really think they are low-level. What I'm trying to imply in that post is that there are a lot more low-level characters [out there] which they could have used other than those ubiquitous and boisterous fops. True, they are convenient for the purpose of "showing" us Waterdeep. But a thief who knows every nook and cranny of the city, or a mage growing in power who happens to have strong ties with a few high ranking nobles would, I believe, just be as effective in giving us a tour around the great city. Anything that will save me from reading ceaseless blabbering and glaring foppery is fine. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2011 : 15:41:09
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Hmm. Sounds like you just want to read a different sort of novel than Ed and Elaine wrote. Or, more importantly (see Elaine's posts, earlier in this thread) than the editors wanted to see written.
It's work for hire, you know. Overall content and shape of every book not up to the writer, but decided by the publisher.
And for the record, I LIKED all the banter and foppery. Fun to read, brought the characters very much to life, good stuff. May not have worked for you, Dennis, but that doesn't make it bad writing or a bad book . . . for me.
Because I'm stuck with my tastes, not yours.
And I know mine are just as good as yours, in general. And for me, personally (as I'm stuck with living with myself), they're BETTER.
I thought this was a great romp of a read. Not a deathless classic, and rushed or chopped in places (and we all know why), but well worth the reading time and money.
I'm not so interested in hearing you trash it over and over again as I am interested in hearing from the OP about what he thinks of it when he finishes it.
BB |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2011 : 16:36:12
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Trashing? Nah, you might want to read my review on Whisper of Waves to know what that word means in "my" vocabulary.  I'm just pointing out what I don't particularly like about the novel. It has some good parts [those I previously mentioned], but it's hardly an excellent book, let alone a classic. I respect others' take on it. But that doesn't mean I have to bend to their opinions. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Malcolm
Learned Scribe
242 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2011 : 18:13:12
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The problem is, Dennis, that by stating your opinions over and over again, usually phrased as absolute truth/fact, and usually rudely, too, you're presenting them as correct/supreme over other views.
Nobody's asking you to bend to the opinions of others.
But to me (and by the sounds of it, to Blueblade), you're not respecting other opinions. You say you are, but whenever some view you don't agree with is posted in this thread, you pop up to rather scornfully dismiss it.
That's not what I was taught "respect" means.  |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2011 : 00:46:33
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Absolute fact? Wow, I wonder how will I manage to posit such a thing. Not even the authors themselves can present absolute facts. Ah, well, you can interpret it any way you want. Frankly, that hardly matters to me. That doesn't change what "I" think. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2011 : 02:44:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade
Hmm. Sounds like you just want to read a different sort of novel than Ed and Elaine wrote. Or, more importantly (see Elaine's posts, earlier in this thread) than the editors wanted to see written.
Sounds like should give the compliments to the editors for the parts I like, then?
quote:
I am interested in hearing from the OP about what he thinks of it when he finishes it.
I'll let ya know. I've got about a quarter of it left. It's very odd, but I am mostly enjoying it still. Not quite sure where it is going though, and the Amalgamation seems to have wandered in from some other novel. |
"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2011 : 00:35:10
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| Hey, throughout the novel Elaith uses a spell, it is described as a Netherese spell based on Elven lore, that involves branding a rune on the forehead of a corpse, and it prevents scrying or necromantic magic to contact the corpses' spirit to discover the killer. Does anyone know if this spell is from the books somehwere, or if it was just created by Ed or Elaine for the novel? |
"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2011 : 01:24:28
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| As far as I know, it's a created-for-the-novel spell. (And a darn cool one too.) Wouldn't be surprised to learn Ed's been keeping it in his back-pocket since 1972, though. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2011 : 05:52:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
As far as I know, it's a created-for-the-novel spell. (And a darn cool one too.) Wouldn't be surprised to learn Ed's been keeping it in his back-pocket since 1972, though.
I'm not overly familiar with the various Netherese products and didn't want to read through them checking. It is a pretty obvious spell for someone to have developed. |
"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2011 : 06:24:34
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I think Tam knew that spell, or something similar. It's quite easy to assume he taught that spell to the "phantom" [who must be Malark] so that he could use it to prevent Druxus's allies and the uneasy zulkirs from discovering who the murderer was.
Being Netherese and a master of death-related magic, Larloch might have known that spell. And Tam, being his "errand boy," might have learned it from him. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2011 : 03:05:13
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Well, I finished it! Very odd. Halfway through I was seriously considering it for my review column, but since I try to only review works I can recommend, I can't use it for that. Much of it is very, very good but it has some problems. One, is it is clearly written solely for FR fans. If you are not already a fan of and knowledgable about Waterdeep, this novel will confuse the hell out of you. There are many extremely well conceived and executed characters, which I would expect from two writers known for that, but after a promising start the villains get a real short shrift. They are very Lovecraftrian, several aspects of the novel remind me of his short story "The Thing on the Doorstep" but ultimately the villains are left extremely vague and queesy.
Waterdahvian politics have a large role but are glossed over and 'unearned,' the novel (and recall, it is written for FR fans who know the city well to start with) requires the reader to accept a sudden shift in Waterdeep's politics that has no antecedent or hint in any previous (or subsequent, as far as I can tell) tales of the city.
The final confrontation is extremely confusing in the beginning, only great good will for the authors will convince a reader to plow through it when they haven't been bothered to make it clear what is happening. The end is tragic and bitter-sweet, and the excellent character work allows the reader to enjoy that despite the novel's other flaws. An ambitious but flawed work that might have been much, much better.
I can't recommend it to others, especially non-FR fans as I said, but in the end, I did enjoy it and I am glad I read it. :) |
"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2011 : 13:08:35
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quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
Well, I finished it! Very odd. Halfway through I was seriously considering it for my review column, but since I try to only review works I can recommend, I can't use it for that. Much of it is very, very good but it has some problems. One, is it is clearly written solely for FR fans. If you are not already a fan of and knowledgable about Waterdeep, this novel will confuse the hell out of you. There are many extremely well conceived and executed characters, which I would expect from two writers known for that, but after a promising start the villains get a real short shrift. They are very Lovecraftrian, several aspects of the novel remind me of his short story "The Thing on the Doorstep" but ultimately the villains are left extremely vague and queesy.
Waterdahvian politics have a large role but are glossed over and 'unearned,' the novel (and recall, it is written for FR fans who know the city well to start with) requires the reader to accept a sudden shift in Waterdeep's politics that has no antecedent or hint in any previous (or subsequent, as far as I can tell) tales of the city.
The final confrontation is extremely confusing in the beginning, only great good will for the authors will convince a reader to plow through it when they haven't been bothered to make it clear what is happening. The end is tragic and bitter-sweet, and the excellent character work allows the reader to enjoy that despite the novel's other flaws. An ambitious but flawed work that might have been much, much better.
I can't recommend it to others, especially non-FR fans as I said, but in the end, I did enjoy it and I am glad I read it. :)
Thanks for the well-considered review. I'm glad you enjoyed the characters and, on balance, the novel.
I agree that CoS might very well confuse someone who is not already familiar with the Realms. Some FR books provide better starting points than others. Among my books, I think Elfshadow would best suit that purpose.
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Edited by - ElaineCunningham on 14 May 2011 13:09:22 |
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2011 : 15:33:01
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I agree re:Elfshadow as a starting point.
I think rereading it that my review was too negative. The final confrontation left me very frustrated, and I think that led me to be more negative than I should have been. The problems I noted were real, but the characters really were superb. Would have liked to learn more about Mreldar. :) |
"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2015 : 00:30:38
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| I just finished this one and enjoyed it, but felt like a good 100-150 pages could have easily been cut. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Question about "The City of Splendors: A Waterdeep
