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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 19:22:31
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Hi again, all.
Markustay, Ed likes and uses a lot of illithids in the home Realms campaign, as subtle/well-hidden manipulators from the shadows. I can't spill names without checking with him, because almost all of his mind flayer lore remains unpublished (but was given to TSR and/or WotC, which puts it in NDA or "potential NDA; better check" territory). So Ed himself is the best man to answer you...
love,
THO |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2012 : 01:38:53
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Hi again, all.
Markustay, Ed likes and uses a lot of illithids in the home Realms campaign, as subtle/well-hidden manipulators from the shadows. I can't spill names without checking with him, because almost all of his mind flayer lore remains unpublished (but was given to TSR and/or WotC, which puts it in NDA or "potential NDA; better check" territory). So Ed himself is the best man to answer you...
love,
THO
Milady, I'd also wouldn't mind hearing about any particularly special and/or long-reaching plots these illithids in Ed's home campaign, have.
Could you pass that along as well?
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 27 Apr 2012 01:41:28 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2012 : 06:16:52
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Milady, I'd also wouldn't mind hearing about any particularly special and/or long-reaching plots these illithids in Ed's home campaign, have.
May I second this request?
As well, I'm curious if Ed can tell us anything more about the two hired mages who were guarding Lord Melder Crownrood in Bury Elminster Deep (page 45 or so)?
Any info on their names (or assumed names), where they came from and whether or not they were double agents (for the Crown or for the Sembian cabals or Westgate-based merchants looking to cause trouble at the Council of the Dragon in Suzail) would be most appreciated. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2012 : 14:35:48
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I'd like to add a question to the pile about silver fire. Specifically in this case, what can happen if somebody over-uses it. I was skimming through a thread on here about the Chosen, and while reading some of Khelben's history came across this:
"With a roar of anger and vengeance, the Nameless exploded through the roof of one of the Six Tyryl Towers, his body glowing and his hair and robes ablaze in silver flames! Similarly to the dragon Peridot's rash charge, he dove headlong into the amassed and "impenetrable" forces of the besieging Army, scattering many gnolls and ogres and orcs like chaff before a great wind. Driving a wedge through the forces, he converged on the Silversgate, where Colonel Cvor and his mezzoloths stood. Spreading his arms wide, the Nameless One scrawled one line in the shattered marble of the street before him with a beam of silver fire, and no mezzoloth crossed that line that day. On his arms, he formed massive wings of silver fire, raising them high and knocking many creatures down from high towers or parapets. As he walked slowly and steadily forward, the blazing line advanced with him, forcing all back before him."
I'm wondering about the extent that use of silver fire can have a detrimental effect on the body of the user when it is spent. I do recall one of Ed's replies from I think several years back, when I believe he mentioned that every time a non-Sister is hurt and "bleeds" silver fire it has a detrimental effect on their psyche (with the Seven Sisters immune to the damage because they were "bred" for it to begin with), but I'd like to know what can happen if silver fire is spent willingly. In Troy Denning's Archwizards trilogy, Khelben described the effect of unleashing silver fire as a "blissful pain" (which implies that it is both pleasurable and painful to use/feel, regardless of whether or not it's a voluntary exercise of power), and that was just enough to kill a phaerimm.
If it is truly degenerative in a very real sense, how fast can it happen? Have there been Chosen (or non-Chosen users of silver fire, as Ed has also mentioned previously) who degenerated rapidly from over-use of silver fire (not their body being unable to handle it or from "bleeding" it, but just throwing it at their enemies too much and too often)? And is the feeling of silver fire addictive to the user? If they use it once, do they want to use it more ("addicted to the feeling"), in a downward spiral? Sammaster seemed to be mentally unstable even before he really went off the deep end - was the "feeling" of silver fire a contributor to that?
Additionally, to go back to Khelben's "blissful pain" feeling, how much more of that feeling would he have experienced when using the amount of silver fire described in the quote? While the silver fire restores itself over time and "recharges" will over-use in that fashion prove damaging in a physical sense as well as mental? All the energy of the silver fire has to actually come from somewhere, I presume. Is there a quick-acting way to draw in/ready more silver fire. I toyed with the thought that the silver fire might actually have the ability to start eating away at the body of the user in order to get the necessary energy for such a large output of power (or perhaps starts consuming memorised spell energy to power itself), but wasn't sure if it was even close to the mark.
Does the power just have to be drawn directly from the Weave? Can its build-up even be accelerated at all? And if it is, what might this result in for the Weave in the nearby area? From what I recall, using silver fire to erase a dead magic zone or similar is draining on the Weave, to the point where Mystra discourages its use except in emergencies. If the "energy" for silver fire has to come from somewhere, the logical place is the Weave in the nearby area to the person using it at such a high level. Which, if there was indeed such a high degree of energy use, would be extremely dangerous to the Weave (and Mystryl did spend a lot of time repairing the Weave when the Netherese were draining it, so I would initially imagine that a wide-scale energy drain on the Weave from silver fire could require Mystra to do something similar).
Am I anywhere close to the bulls-eye? Or am I aiming at a target on the other side of the wall behind me instead?
(All my questions seem to wind up being a lot longer than I intended. My apologies for that.) |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
Edited by - Eldacar on 27 Apr 2012 14:36:54 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2477 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2012 : 22:43:49
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
I am trying to post a pick here of the alternative images of Elminster, for Ed's opinion as well as his fans.
So...
picture B would be the closer of the two. Longer beard with the pipe. Remember, for as much as we like the old wizard, he does fair a surpassing resemblance to an old goat (successfully makes save v/s polymorph spell to turn Slevyas into a goat).
My take on this is that the archetypical robed figure with everstinkin' pipe in that old mill tower is but one more mask - "a good example" Elminster presents to the wizards still looking up at him. He's still both "prince of thieves" and the one told to learn from mages without taking the accompanying title or habits... among the other faces. Conversely, when he's out for some quiet meddling anybody would be lucky to recognize Elminster as a living thing at all.
To put it in another way, he's the sort of a man who wears perfect formal clothes and demonstratively plays by all the rules while in an official role... privately not even for a moment believing in them being anything more than generally useful guidelines, because he saw too much to cling to such illusions. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2012 : 00:04:45
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Hi again, all. I bring the latest words of Ed, this time in response to TBeholder.
Ed sent me this:
Bingo! Right-on correct. Very well said.
So there you have it. So saith Ed. 
love,
THO |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12028 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2012 : 15:28:50
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| Ed, as anyone who has heard me talk probably knows, my main fascination with the realms revolves around the pre-spellplague red wizards. One thing that I've always wanted to do was run a campaign set around the time of the actual rebellion that broke off Thay from Mulhorand. Off and on, I've actually done little bits of research about what spellcasters were around then, statted the movers and shakers if just to work out the history and play with the ruleset. One of the things that only recently came to mind though, is how did Mystra react to Thay's breaking away? How did the Chosen react to Thay's breaking away? Technically, the area was a predominantly Mulhorandi pantheon state at the time, but the overthrow definitely allowed for the re-emergence of the Faerunian pantheon.... so did that have any impact on involvement? I'd have to look and see timeline-wise where they were, but were the seven sisters even in their prominence yet? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2012 : 00:37:06
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
One of the things that only recently came to mind though, is how did Mystra react to Thay's breaking away? How did the Chosen react to Thay's breaking away?
I would suspect that Mystra would welcome the move because it encourages the use of Art amongst people (more opportunities to learn the Art now the Mulhorandi 'Tyranny' is ended) and also encourages wizards to expand their range of spells as well (so the red wizards break away and a war of succession/repression takes place, involving magic on both sides, which forces wizards on both sides to think of new spells to protect/hide/buff themselves against the new slaying spells that the opposition wizards have created to more quickly kill their enemy etc.)
I would suspect a massive increase in new and uncovered magic as well during this time. Wizards fight and die and their hidden spell books fall into other hands and more general use, also the creation and use of magic items would likely to increase as well.
We also see the emergence of a magical led society which despite its alignment will see magic flourish and become an every day occurence furthering the Art every day in every day ways.
The Thayvians also provide a nice balance against the Halruaans and the Rashemi, as well as (arguably) saving the Sword Coast North from plunging into chaos during the Orcgates Affair and providing yet another group of wizards (the Covenant) an opportunity to plot and plan and craft Art against Thay in retaliation for the Orcgates Affair.
Just my thoughts
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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rodrigoalcanza
Seeker
Brazil
67 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2012 : 03:42:22
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Hello!
First sorry for my English.
I'd like to help me take these questions to Ed Greenwood, and if he has already handled this matter elsewhere, let me know where to find, please!
I'd love to know how works the magic system that Ed uses in his campaign, or what system he envisioned when he created the Realms?
During these years that I follow Forgotten Realms, I have noticed that the way Ed Greenwood uses magic is far more malleable than the standard system of (A)D&D. For example, he uses the memorization (or preparation) to spell? If so, uses the same way as the official books? And metamagic?
I want to know a bit about the history of the magic system of Ed Greenwood. For example, how he handled the many editions of D&D? In his campaign there is a difference between sorcerers and wizards, as well as in Third Edition?
I know that Ed works the magic of a deep and detailed way, and he might have to write one book to answer this issue, but I'd be really happy with a summary that was enlightening, please!
Thank you! |
Edited by - rodrigoalcanza on 01 May 2012 03:43:22 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2012 : 18:18:37
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Hi, rodrigo!
As one of Ed's longtime players and friends, I can make a start on replying to your questions...
When Ed created the Realms (starting in 1966), he didn't have any specific magic system in mind.
When D&D started to appear, Ed was delighted with its adoption of the system Jack Vance used in his Dying Earth tales (which Ed was familiar with), because it put specific limitations (and powers) re. magic use. When that was coupled with specific details for monsters (i.e. when the original hardcover "AD&D" Monster Manual and Players Handbook were both out in public use, and could be used together), Ed adopted them for the Realms.
From then on, he wrote spellcasting, magic item effects, and so on all to match the rules. When he introduced new spells, magic items, and monsters in his fiction, Ed attached full game writeups for them to his manuscripts.
However, over the years, some editors have changed Ed's prose to NOT match game rules, due to publisher philosophies at the times. And of course, the rules have changed, too, rendering some of Ed's writing retroactively "not-matching" with the game rules.
Ed has introduced many game rules, spells, magic items, and monsters to the game himself (in fact, probably more of each than anyone except Gary), and most of these have appeared in official rulebooks or Realms sourcebooks over the years. Some, however, appear in fiction without being clearly labeled in game terms as what they are. Ed makes much use of "hanging" spells (cast but left "ready," so as to be unleashed with a single word, or when specific conditions occur, as with a magic mouth spell) and silent, will-only variants (a level higher than the verbal, somatic, material "standard" form of the same magical effect), magic item "triggers," and so on - - so they often SEEM to differ from the official rules. He also uses other systems of casting than Weave-based arcane magic, sometimes unlabelled.
More later...
love,
THO |
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rodrigoalcanza
Seeker
Brazil
67 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2012 : 20:10:28
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My sincere thanks to you, The Hooded One. You're really a blessing for all fans of the Forgotten Realms!
Thank you!
Rodrigo. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2012 : 21:11:51
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Some of the other differences that stand out to me are
-- a much larger variety of spells -- old, newly created, unearthed, modified, variant -- than is usually assumed, thus more unpredictability, and 'standard tactics' don't work so well
-- a much larger role for long-lasting personal and place-based wards and other magical fields
-- much scope for casting a prepared spell in different ways, as highlighted in 'Elminster at the Magefair', and partly modellable with 3E metamagic feats -- this is a large part of what 'the Art' consists of
-- a different common taxonomy and terminology for spell types, existing alongside the school system
There were always relatively free-form, wild-talent wizards similar to the 3E sorcerer, but in the Realms the word 'sorcerer' is a near-synonym of 'mage' and 'wizard' (with slightly more sinister connotations, as in our world) and isn't used in the Realms to refer to them.
Ed has described in a previous post the reasons the detailed working of Realms magic were never gone into -- it was partly to do with not wanting to seem to depart from current rules, as I recall -- but over all those sourcebooks and novels a lot of the picture has got through.
I dream of a big book of Realms-magic that lays out clearly the basics as understood by a journeyman mage, with hundreds of spells, which would have to be in a much briefer format than Ed's favoured-for-spells lawyerese.
I thought I read Ed saying that Realms magic was Vanceian pre-D&D, just not in the formalized way the game did it, but I seem to have crushed with my great strength the USB plug that connects to my hard drive with those archives . . . |
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Eli the Tanner
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
149 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2012 : 00:07:48
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| Perhaps one day Elminster will allow Volo to release the un-edited version of Volo's Guide to All Things Magical....though I doubt he'll change his mind anytime soon on the matter, some things are best kept secret. |
Moderator of /r/Forgotten_Realms |
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rodrigoalcanza
Seeker
Brazil
67 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2012 : 00:25:46
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All this is very interesting, thank you!
If you find more things about it, be sure to post here.
Another question is about spells with common functions, doing everyday things. I realize that in all editions of D&D, the spells have always been more focused on combat and adventure. There are exceptions, but I actually find more magic oriented to combat situations and adventure in game books of D&D. I could be right to assume that the Ed original Realms existed more spells and magic items with functions less oriented to combat and adventure? |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2012 : 16:42:53
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Hi again, all! Ed is incredibly busy crafting new Realmslore right now, but he surfaced long enough to send me the "bare beginnings" of a reply to Skeptic, re. this query posted back in January of this year (Page 2 of this thread): "I'm curious to hear anything he can say about the "wintering process" of Waterdeep's nobility. As much about those who departs for the south than those who choose to stay. Anything from the logistics of travel to the connections with Tethir's nobility. I'm more interested about how it was circa 1370 than current time."
Ed replies:
Hi, Skeptic. The "winter run" is simply the desire of those who can afford to do so (the idle rich, the REALLY wealthy traders, crafters who spend the winter making things to sell in the warmer months, and would rather do it somewhere warm enough that feeding fires won't take up much time and money, and many others for a myriad of different reasons) to "overwinter" in places warmer (i.e. more southerly) than Waterdeep. For a few, this just means moving to Athkatla before mud closes the roads in fall (or harbor icing interrupts cheap ship travel), but for most, it means moving to cities or owned or rented properties throughout Tethyr and the Tashalar.
As for who goes, that "depends," of course. As in, a Waterdhavian noble family will leave trade factors (agents who are paid staff/servants) and at least one family member who has the authority to sign documents/make mercantile decisions in Waterdeep, and "the household" (children plus their tutors and nurses, plus elderly family members who "feel the cold") will relocate. A few noble families who are "above trade" themselves ALL head south to avoid the winter ice and bitter cold winds and storms that bedevil "the Deep," but most years, an everchanging crew of "skeleton shieldbearers" represent each family in the City of Splendors. For those who brave the cold, the city is certainly less crowded, so access to good clubs and eateries is faster and they are less crowded. Mages of minor powers (and local temples and independent clerics) who winter over do a brisk trade in magically sending messages between family members (and coster staff and guildmembers) in the City and those who've "gone sutherly."
So a DM can literally pick and choose individuals to be in Waterdeep or elsewhere in the spring, fall, and winter months. There's no "this family always ALL go south" unless you want there to be, in your campaign. (There are also increasing numbers of citizens who "hole up" close to warm hearths for the cold months, staying in the city but rarely venturing outside, employing others to "freeze their teeth" for them.)
Hope this helps, as a start.
So saith Ed. Who is working on "A whole bunch of things right now, each of them more exciting than the others. ;}"
Ahem.
love,
THO |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2012 : 00:12:33
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Hi Ed and THO,
While I love my summers and what's turning out to be a really nice spring up here in North Dakota and don't want to see the nice weather end, I'm definitely excited for the onslaught of Realms books and novels we have coming out later this summer. Hoping we get a sample chapter of Elminster Enraged soon!
I've been mulling over some campaign specifics and was wondering if either of you could lend some insight. Specifically, how do drow generally go about breaking through a rival family's compound walls? Or do they usually try to make it through the main gates? I'd imagine the more powerful houses would have access to flat out destructive things such as disintegrate and swarms of fireballs to get them in the door, but how would lower powered houses fare? I always figured many of the smaller houses would probably have major NPC's (house wizard, matron mother, weaponsmaster etc) in the 5th to 9th level range. I'm not worried about specific edition rulesets, but how would you handle warfare between smaller houses. With the severe penalties for failing at a raid in Lolth worshipping communities, wouldn't they have some sort of specific tactics for attacks that don't rely on heavy magic support?
Thank you both. :)
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2012 : 18:08:53
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Hi, Eilserus!
As it happens, your topic is one I overheard Ed discussing with a TSR designer at a long-ago GenCon, so I can provide you a paraphrase of his views on this.
In general, the hardest thing for a drow house to conceal in an attack on a rival house in the same city is the military buildup. So a lot of misdirection and guerilla stuff goes on, including secretly mustering way out in the "wild" Underdark and then ambushing the rival house's patrols to weaken them, for some months before the all-out assault.
In all cases where the attacker doesn't have the brute-force or magical muscle to "crash right in," the assault usually involves trying to find defensive weaknesses and gaining access hard and fast through those weak points (which usually means an assault using magic or drop-lines from cavern ceilings or both, to gain access to upper-level windows or floors and so bypassing entry doors and heavily-defended areas), and deception (coming in concealed in food wagons, or posing as members of the house returning from a patrol or business trip, etc.).
Attackers often employ "trick" wagons loaded with timber frames that can be unfolded to jam doors open, or bombs (so as to blow up front gates or firing-port defenses), and smokepot/fiery bombs to force defenders out of certain areas with thick smoke, etc.
It is almost always against local civic rules to "wholesale poison" large numbers of fellow drow (i.e. by tainting a well or common water supply or incoming food or drinkables), though poisoned weapons can be used. Usually a house that does this will be punished by the rest of the community in the same manner as if their assault had failed.
So the magically-capable members of smaller drow houses engaged in warfare would do things like cast fly spells on key warriors of their house to mount these upper-storey assaults, and then provide "fighting support" (the fireballs, the webs) to assault teams once things get underway.
Lastly, diversions and disruptions. Such as an arranged stampede of pack lizards or Underdark monsters to occupy defenders in one or more locations before the real attackers arrive in other locations. Hired or manipulated driders (outcasts, not part of the attacking house) who stage a timely/untimely raid. Avalanches or stalactite falls (magically or physically triggered), and so on.
I hope this helps. This all comes from Ed's long-ago instructions, but in game time, not much time has passed to change drow tactics in the Underdark, for such things...
love,
THO |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2012 : 19:44:31
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Hi THO,
Very nice! Thank you very much. :) Did Ed by chance mention how many soldiers one of those smaller houses tends to command? I was thinking something like 20 to 50 warriors for them. What do you think? Thanks again milady, this is great! :) |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2012 : 20:17:25
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A pleasure!
I sent your queries and my reply off to Ed, and just got an e-mail back from him which reads in part:
As for troop strength...well, as much as Candlekeep scribes are growing weary of my saying "it depends," I'm going to do it again anyway: It depends. :}
But yes, 20 to 50 warriors sounds good (less than twenty is either just a patrol raid or a suicidal attack, unless it's one unit of several involved in an all-out assault, and much above fifty isn't a smaller house unless the entire city is small or ravaged by war). The only such attack I've ever roleplayed through in detail, in a TSR playtest years back, had a main force of 45 (three priestesses and two wizards leading forty warriors) and a secondary "sneak attack from the rear" force of six veteran fighters, four veteran wizards, and two novice wizards.
So saith Ed. Who is, I think, finishing up the Spin A Yarn opus right now.
love,
THO
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12028 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2012 : 22:28:27
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quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
One of the things that only recently came to mind though, is how did Mystra react to Thay's breaking away? How did the Chosen react to Thay's breaking away?
I would suspect that Mystra would welcome the move because it encourages the use of Art amongst people (more opportunities to learn the Art now the Mulhorandi 'Tyranny' is ended) and also encourages wizards to expand their range of spells as well (so the red wizards break away and a war of succession/repression takes place, involving magic on both sides, which forces wizards on both sides to think of new spells to protect/hide/buff themselves against the new slaying spells that the opposition wizards have created to more quickly kill their enemy etc.)
I would suspect a massive increase in new and uncovered magic as well during this time. Wizards fight and die and their hidden spell books fall into other hands and more general use, also the creation and use of magic items would likely to increase as well.
We also see the emergence of a magical led society which despite its alignment will see magic flourish and become an every day occurence furthering the Art every day in every day ways.
The Thayvians also provide a nice balance against the Halruaans and the Rashemi, as well as (arguably) saving the Sword Coast North from plunging into chaos during the Orcgates Affair and providing yet another group of wizards (the Covenant) an opportunity to plot and plan and craft Art against Thay in retaliation for the Orcgates Affair.
Just my thoughts
Damian
That was where I was actually starting to lean too, which is why I'm wondering.... did Mystra and her Chosen actually HELP Thay? It'd be an interesting quandary if the people who purport to save the realms were actually instrumental in forming something which went so wrong. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2012 : 04:30:57
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
A pleasure!
I sent your queries and my reply off to Ed, and just got an e-mail back from him which reads in part:
As for troop strength...well, as much as Candlekeep scribes are growing weary of my saying "it depends," I'm going to do it again anyway: It depends. :}
But yes, 20 to 50 warriors sounds good (less than twenty is either just a patrol raid or a suicidal attack, unless it's one unit of several involved in an all-out assault, and much above fifty isn't a smaller house unless the entire city is small or ravaged by war). The only such attack I've ever roleplayed through in detail, in a TSR playtest years back, had a main force of 45 (three priestesses and two wizards leading forty warriors) and a secondary "sneak attack from the rear" force of six veteran fighters, four veteran wizards, and two novice wizards.
So saith Ed. Who is, I think, finishing up the Spin A Yarn opus right now.
love,
THO
Thanks again THO and Ed! These are the kind of great details I love that helps in world building. :) Hope you both have a great weekend! |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2012 : 11:32:05
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
That was where I was actually starting to lean too, which is why I'm wondering.... did Mystra and her Chosen actually HELP Thay?
I too would love to hear more on whether Mystra and/or her Chosen were active in the Thayan rebellion.
My thoughts:
I would suspect that Mystra probably did and that mortal agents prodded and poked the rebels along (though whether these mortals served Mystra or another deity/demon/devil is up for discussion).
I think that Mystra's Chosen have actually been a lot more active in creating, shaping and balancing countries/kingdoms/realms albeit extremely subtly throughout the 'recent history' of the Realms as a whole.
A long time ago on the Realms mailing list Geroge Krashos and I had a series of back and forth posts about The Covenant, Nimoars Hold and Ahghairon and how Khelben/Mystra was manipulating the wizards of the Sword Coast North to create a stable environment for people to live and places to flourish. Krash ended one response with
"A tangled web indeed - but not outside the Realms of possibility. And
Khelben (in disguise) did tutor Ahghairon while he lived in Silverymoon and dropped out of sight in c. 956 DR. Hmm, interesting.:)"
http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0503D&L=REALMS-L&P=R1566&I=-3
Am looking forward to further responses from the Lorelords of the Realms 
Cheers
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2012 : 16:29:34
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Hello fellow Realms lovers. (Does that sound oddly naughty to you?)As always, thank you Ed for creating such a rich and vibrant world for us to play in.
These are brief questions to Ed (or whomever can direct me to the answers) about kiira, selu'kiira and Ar'Cor'Kerym's selu'kiira for a concept that we may be using in a campaign.
When a kiira or selu'kiira is worn, does it automatically copy its bearer's memories, or is this a gradual process? If its gradual, how long does it tend to take? Did the kiira Elminster wore in 'Elminster in Myth Drannor' copy his memories? If so, were those memories available to subsequent wearers of the kiira? Or did his Chosen of Mystra abilities prevent his memories from being recorded?
The Ruler's Blade has three selu'kiira in 650 DR, (2 black, 1 red, representing presumably at least 5,000 years of combined memories). Does the Ruler's Blade selu'kiira store the memories of the elves who wielded it? The Srinshee drew the blade and kept it in her possession for centuries. Some time ago, you (Ed) mentioned that your estimate of the Srinshee's power, in 2e/3e game terms, was around 54th level. Was that a result of her combined knowledge and power and that of the selu'kiira in Ar'Cor'Kerym, or did she attain that on her own. Is the Srinshee's knowledge stored in those selu'kiira now?
Finally, assuming, hypothetically, that some character could safely drain and absorb all the memories from Ar'cor'kerym's selu'kiira, without going insane or be otherwise destroyed, feeblewitted, or impaired what would you his mage/high mage level to be in 2e/3e game terms. Conceptually (not in game terms) how would his power compare to your conception of Larloch, the Srinshee, Ioulaum, or the Terraseer?
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2012 : 17:59:01
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Hi again, all.
I bring you the latest response from Ed, this time to the post by Veritas immediately above:
V: "When a kiira or selu'kiira is worn, does it automatically copy its bearer's memories, or is this a gradual process? If its gradual, how long does it tend to take?"
Ed: No, it's neither automatic nor swift. It is slow and random, being driven/fueled mostly by emotions of the bearer (longing, wistfulness, love, and rage being the strongest drivers). It can take years, depending on the level of mental activity, acuity, and depth of stored memories of the bearer. For your average "wise old wizard who's dabbled in spell creation or magic item creation or spell alteration," probably ten years for the stone to "record" everything.
A bearer who knows how to spur/goad/"aim" such a stone can successfully direct it to search for and acquire all memories of a particular person, place, or event, but NOT a concept or group of beings or sequence of events (to garner such a collection, they'll have to methodically direct the stone to recover and record memories and knowledge of this person, and then that one, and then the next one, one after another. The stone can't recover a memory of an entire adventuring band or wizards' cabal and then hunt for memories of all members, at once, on its own.
Recovery and recording can take much longer if a bearer has certain forms of insanity, or certain magical safeguards, or is of a particular nature (for example, the usual mental processes of mind flayers confuse the stones, and they literally record random and extremely truncated fragments of thought and memory images, not a coherent record . . . and Chosen of Mystra, Azuth, Savras, Lurue, and quite possibly other deities have by the nature of the divine influence they carry a natural defense against the stones - - that safeguard everything they want kept from a stone, in situations where unprotected minds would yield up memories [[e.g. "I order you not to think of the house you grew up in" would goad an unprotected mind into thinking of it, whereas a Chosen could without psionics easily achieve a "mind blank"]]. Psionics, properly wielded, can frustrate the recording abilities of a stone. The silver fire can "burn out" sections or all of a stone.)
V: "Did the kiira Elminster wore in 'Elminster in Myth Drannor' copy his memories? If so, were those memories available to subsequent wearers of the kiira? Or did his Chosen of Mystra abilities prevent his memories from being recorded?"
Ed: It copied a few of his memories, and yes, subsequent wearers could access those memories (and did, to ascertain that his claims as to how he acquired the kiira were true). His abilities as a Chosen certainly could have prevented memories from being recorded, or "fogged" those memories forever, irrevocably, by using silver fire to damage the stone, but that would only result from a deliberate use of those memories or an uncontrolled release of silver fire due to a spell battle or other calamity, not "by accident" or automatically. And no, Elminster's kiira didn't merrily record memories from his past, only memories he made while bearing the stone.
V: "The Ruler's Blade has three selu'kiira in 650 DR, (2 black, 1 red, representing presumably at least 5,000 years of combined memories). Does the Ruler's Blade selu'kiira store the memories of the elves who wielded it?"
Ed: It stores many of them.
V: "The Srinshee drew the blade and kept it in her possession for centuries. Some time ago, you (Ed) mentioned that your estimate of the Srinshee's power, in 2e/3e game terms, was around 54th level. Was that a result of her combined knowledge and power and that of the selu'kiira in Ar'Cor'Kerym, or did she attain that on her own."
Ed: Almost entirely on her own, though the selu'kiira and other items she possesses helped in minor ways.
V: "Is the Srinshee's knowledge stored in those selu'kiira now?"
Ed: NDA. Sorry.
V: "Finally, assuming, hypothetically, that some character could safely drain and absorb all the memories from Ar'cor'kerym's selu'kiira, without going insane or be otherwise destroyed, feeblewitted, or impaired what would you his mage/high mage level to be in 2e/3e game terms. Conceptually (not in game terms) how would his power compare to your conception of Larloch, the Srinshee, Ioulaum, or the Terraseer?"
Ed: Hoo boy. First of all, no one knows how to "drain" anything like "all" the memories from a selu'kiira. No matter what powerful wizards or even deities my claim.
Yet for hypothetical purposes, let's assume one can.
Okay, nothing in memories gained or shared enables a character to wield the Art if they lack the aptitude. In other words, a random person who lacks the ability to cast spells doesn't gain it by gaining the memories of a spellcaster.
So we're also going to have to assume the character who safely drains and absorbs all the memories is an arcane spellcaster or has the innate "talent" to become one.
With all that assumed, the answer is still going to be - - wait for it - - "it depends." :}
Yep. People vary in their capabilities, development, and achievements. Have a track meet with individuals who start with the same training, diet, height, and weight - - and there will still be winners and losers, not endless ties. What the memories provide is SUPERB training (because it shifts from someone telling and showing you, to you directly sharing the experience of doing it yourself, so you gain experience and not just "book learning"), that could in theory boost you by twelve levels or more.
However. :}
You still have to "go out and do it," to mesh the memories of others with your own reflexes, deftness, mental focus, and powers of concentration. Much of the training of a mage is PRACTICE in concentration, for which there is no substitute, and PRACTICE in judgment, on the spot and within the instant, rather than retrieving and considering the accumulated judgments of others.
So calling on all of those gained memories doesn't make you an accomplished spellcaster of twelve levels higher than you were before swallowing the memories. For one thing, "ordering" those memories within your own mind for retrieval, also known as "subsuming," is going to take a fair while (one to three months, most likely). For another, most D&D players who have played in tournaments or at conventions or otherwise with more than a lone, fairly "set" group of players, are familiar with differences in, say, a fourth level wizard as played by one person, and the same character as run by another. One character "knows" their standard spells fairly well, and uses them. The other knows them in deeper detail, and can readily use them in unusual or innovative ways - - and dares to do so.
That corresponds to the difference between acquired-in-a-lump memories and truly "earned" levels.
So draining those stones DOESN'T equate to cleanly and instantly gaining 12 levels. It may, with study and preparation (for example, a carefully-planned assault or sequence of round-by-round attacks), allow the memory-gainer to properly cast and wield a spell or spells 6 or 7 levels above his former capability, and start to become experienced in the use of those spells. (In other words, I'd handle it this way if I were the DM, so it becomes a roleplayed-through series of attempts and gains on the part of the character.)
As for how such an augmented character would stack up against my conceptions of Larloch, the Srinshee, Ioulaum, or the Terraseer, I'm afraid those conceptions are currently NDA (and I can't even say why), but I would remind you that all of those characters have traveled widely and experimented with other systems of magic than just the Weave, and that at least two of those characters have experience with, and a special status in regard to, deities. They all have a LOT of world experience, so in a battle between the augmented character and any of them, a lot would depend on the circumstances of the fray. If it's a "raw power" comparison, please bear in mind that we're comparing unknown capabilities on both sides of the comparison: we don't know if our augmented character can deftly handle all that they have so abruptly gained - - and we DON'T know the true powers and capabilities of any of those four named characters. We have various (conflicting) "rules snapshots" of their partial powers, and a lot of fan and designer and author opinions and depictions that are in turn subject to a lot of reinterpretation.
As creator of most of them, I "know" who's most powerful in a given situation, but I mean just that: a given situation. Hence my frequent use of "it depends." It's very difficult to reduce many variables to simple cut-and-dried answers or comparisons, without oversimplifying or leaving out things that matter.
For example, how much has been written of the psionic capabilities of Larloch, the Srinshee, Ioulaum, or the Terraseer? They all have some psionic mastery. What do we really know of their spell rosters? They have all created new spells and modified existing spells. What do we really know of their "readiness" for battle? We "know" that Larloch surrounds himself with so many servitor liches that he can afford to sacrifice them like candy, but have we ever examined in detail the nature of his control, and the spells those liches can command and hurl, to say nothing of the tactics of battlefield cooperation they have developed and use? Here at Candlekeep, in seminars and panels at conventions, and at many other sites on the Net where gamers discuss in-game lore, there are often ferocious disagreements over such details. Most of them based on the opinions individual fans have of fictional characters, places, events, and things, extrapolated from scanty or even contradictory in-print lore.
All of which means I can't tell you how such an augmented character would stack up against Larloch, et al, other then the short answer of "probably rather poorly." Is the doctor specializing in the sciences of peak athlete development likely to be able to enter an Olympic event and beat all the trained-to-peak athletes competing in it?
So saith Ed. Who tells me he doesn't mean to discourage a player running such a memory-acquiring character from trying anything they want to try, but rather "wants to very clear" on how little we really know of the capabilities of magic-heavyweight NPCs, so in the interest of character prudence/survival, wants players to roleplay through acquiring such power. (For one thing, as he pointed out to me, once every PC is a superpowered being, D&D campaigns tend to fall apart fast unless the DM and all the other players are prepared to conduct themselves accordingly.)
He also added this:
Great questions, Veritas. Fun things to delve into, to be sure.
A sentiment I echo.
love,
THO
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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2012 : 18:57:18
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To THO and Ed, I'm extremely grateful for the prompt and exhaustive response to the my questions. I had the great pleasure of meeting Ed at a couple of Cons roughly ten years ago (and still treasure my signed copy of 'Secrets of the Magister').
To follow up, the truncated background for the questions is that a villainous entity with a unique memory stealing ability would attempt to run off with the knowledge of the selu'kiira (not unlike the concept of Elminster in Hell). His Achilles heel is: NDA ;). We're sadly a little too old for the "my character can beat up Larloch!" narrative but we're big fans of Ed's lore and are glad for his shared perspective. Its worth noting that now we know our unfortunate villain won't be running off with the Realms shaking command of Art he thought he would be.
My final questions on this particular line: Cormanthyr, and more recently the Lady Penitent trilogy, revealed that selu'kiira can grant the knowledge to wield high magic. I'm confident that knowledge is acquired according to the capabilities of the kiira bearer. Roughly, from a lore (rather than mechanical) perspective, how long from your perspective would it take a highly gifted elf spellcaster to integrate that knowledge?
Thanks to both of you, Ed and THO for collaborating with us on our adventure.
I also have to ask what I'm sure is a constant refrain. Where is Volo now?
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2012 : 19:54:00
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Hello Ed and THO,
Ed, what can you tell us about doll houses in Cormyr?
Do they exist? Are or were they ever popular? Are or were there any merchants or crafters of surpassing skill (in or out of Cormyr) who took on noble or Royal patrons and made doll houses and/or lifelike miniatures for the noble's children?
Did any of these craftsmen use magic to animate their creations, create magical constructs or create clockwork versions of maids, doorjacks and so on that move about in the dollhouse and/or can respond to commands of the child as though the child were the head of the family?
I have an idea for an NPC noble, who is head of his house and was shrunk down via magical calamity, for whom his wife is forced to find doll house-like accommodations while she looks for a cure and tries to hide his condition from rivals, war wizards, maybe the house wizard (during King Foril's reign, must all house wizards be war wizards?) and even the children, so any info you can provide would be most appreciated. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2012 : 19:59:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
Hello Ed and THO,
Ed, what can you tell us about doll houses in Cormyr?
Ooooh I like this question, the evil-DM (tm) in me can see some fun with lifelike models and animated toys and houses being used as safeholds and scrying focuses 
Cheers
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2012 : 20:19:11
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Hello again, fellow scribes.
Ed is obviously at the keyboard and firing on all cylinders today, because he's fired back answers already to the most recent posts, relayed to him.
From Veritas: "Roughly, from a lore (rather than mechanical) perspective, how long from your perspective would it take a highly gifted elf spellcaster to integrate that knowledge?"
Ed: It depends. :} Seriously, if the highly gifted elf spellcaster dropped almost everything else to concentrate on integrating that knowledge (including practice spellcastings): almost nothing useful for the first tenday, then a surge of mastery throughout the second tenday, then much slower accomplishments for the next three tendays, with the first of those three yielding the most results. In other words, three tendays of continuous concentration would result in mastery of most of it. Interruptions, or doing other things beyond mere subsistence living (eat, sleep, bathe, dress and defecate, cook, then repeat the cycle), will slow mastery - - and three accumulated tendays of work will yield FAR less results than three consecutive tendays. Full mastery depends on use; if the spellcaster spends a month in hard study and work, but then goes back to their former pursuits, additional mastery will come very slowly, but if they use their new knowledge/powers regularly, additional mastery will slowly and steadily be theirs.
Veritas: "I also have to ask what I'm sure is a constant refrain. Where is Volo now?"
Ed: NDA, I'm afraid. Really. Some things have to be discussed and settled before your question can be answered - - perhaps not here or by me. Rest assured this is a matter I was already working on, and will continue to work on. At GenCon, There Will Be Discussions, Perhaps Even Fruitful. :}
So saith Ed. Who has also sent an answer to Jeremy's dollhouse request, which follows...
love,
THO |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2012 : 20:27:53
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And as promised:
Jeremy asked: "Ed, what can you tell us about doll houses in Cormyr? Do they exist? Are or were they ever popular? Are or were there any merchants or crafters of surpassing skill (in or out of Cormyr) who took on noble or Royal patrons and made doll houses and/or lifelike miniatures for the noble's children?"
Ed: Yes to all of those. "Houses" (as in: mansions, or little three-room "archaels" [one-open-sided fanciful buildings representing three linked rooms for dressup dolls representing royalty or nobility or wealthy fashionplate women, and their servants) were popular only among nobility and the highcoin-wealthy "wannabe noble" wealthy merchants. For everyone else, toy or dollhouse farms or castles (or "waykeeps," which might best be described as lone turret fanciful cut-down castles) were popular.
Jeremy: "Did any of these craftsmen use magic to animate their creations, create magical constructs or create clockwork versions of maids, doorjacks and so on that move about in the dollhouse and/or can respond to commands of the child as though the child were the head of the family?"
Ed: Yes, but now you're talking the rarest and most expensive examples, more talked-of than ever seen, for most of the populace.
Many crafters used concealed pull-rods, levers, and even buttons to be depressed, to operate mechanically-opening doors, little water cisterns that poured real water, and so on, in the miniature houses they built and sold, but magically-animated are REAL luxuries.
Jeremy: "I have an idea for an NPC noble, who is head of his house and was shrunk down via magical calamity, for whom his wife is forced to find doll house-like accommodations while she looks for a cure and tries to hide his condition from rivals, war wizards, maybe the house wizard (during King Foril's reign, must all house wizards be war wizards?) and even the children, so any info you can provide would be most appreciated."
Ed: That's a GREAT idea. There are wizards and disloyal servants and even one noble I know of who got shrunk and "frozen" into chessmen, still in use around the Royal Palace in Suzail by the unwitting. I'll have to check to see what else I can say here without running into NDAs, though.
So saith Ed. Who is hard at work on more Realmslore for us all, of course.
love,
THO |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2012 : 21:07:32
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Whoops! Sorry, Jeremy, I missed cutting and pasting one last little bit of Ed's replies to you.
Re. this: "during King Foril's reign, must all house wizards be war wizards?"
Ed's response is:
No, in theory house wizards are hired wholly independently of the Crown, by their patrons.
In practice, during Foril's reign, they are either Wizards of War or under the thumb of the War Wizards in some way or being spied upon attentively by the War Wizards. Caladnei and her successor Ganrahast are both far more rule-abiding than Vangerdahast when it comes to the rights of citizens (Vangey might privately say that non-Obarskyrs don't have any rights, just whatever privileges I allow them), but such things as wizards needing official Crown permission to work magic within the kingdom allows them to prevent Cormyreans hiring outlanders (unless the Crown allows them to; most don't even try). When you are thus at a stroke reduced to hiring Cormyrean wizards, it's nigh impossible to find someone of any accomplishment-in-Art (i.e. 5th level or higher) who isn't either playing ball with the War Wizards, or deep in their suspicion and being attentively watched (and the War Wizards PREFER to gently blackmail someone's good behavior, if they can "get the goods" to do so).
All of which means any house wizard must be considered a spy for the War Wizards, if not an active agent (most who aren't actually War Wizards themselves will refuse to "act for" the Wizards of War beyond passing on warnings, suggestions, and other messages, and reminding patrons of relevant laws, on the grounds that doing more than that for the Crown would be betraying the people who are paying them, which would also be lawbreaking and would also ruin their reputations for any employment elsewhere).
Hope all of this helps.
So saith Ed. "All of this" of course refers to all of his replies, not just this last bit I missed including earlier.
love,
THO |
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Questions for Ed Greenwood (2012)
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