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Lady Swiftstrike Assassin
Seeker
73 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 13:31:27
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Hi Shemmy (and other scribes)!
I was wondering if you could give me a canon reference which indicates that the "Great Wheel" view of the DnD cosmology is 'true', (from the perspective of the denizens of the DnD worlds)? I don't have all of the Planescape material anymore, (gave it to a buddy who is more of a collector than I) but I seem to recall all the material presented therein as coming from the 'unreliable narrator' perspective, and costant references to the unknowable nature of the cosmos.
Anyway, thanks a lot!
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8091 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 14:04:58
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You'd need to specify which D&D edition you consider "true" canon. 1E/2E, several versions of 3E, and 4E all possess largely incompatible planar lore.
The Great Wheel cosmology was Gygax's original model, which evolved several refinements culminating in 2E Planescape lore. It was gradually but systematically abandoned in subsequent D&D editions.
Although you are correct, Shemmy is perhaps the most knowledgeable Candlekeep sage in matters of planar lore. Numerous wiki pages (including this one) offer summaries which might answer your questions. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Lady Swiftstrike Assassin
Seeker
73 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 14:28:00
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Interesting, Ayrik! I thought the concept was the work of Grubb, Breault, Greenwood, Moore, and Collins... also, the 1e "Manual of the Planes" indicates that the Outer Planes form a 'great ring', but that the 'great ring' is not actually a ring, because the Concordant Opposition does not fit the model, and in effect the Outer Planes form a great 'cup'.
Was the 1e 'Manual of the Planes' written from the 'unreliable narrator' perspective? My reading of the tome indicates it is not... |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8091 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 15:59:22
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Well, the best source of information about the Great Wheel would be the 1E DMG and Manual of the Planes, then the 2E DMG, MotP, and of course the entire Planescape setting. Various module-adventures, Dungeon and Dragon articles, passages from Ravenloft, Spelljammer, and other world-settings (typically in whatever sections are written about "how/where does this setting fit together with other AD&D products?").
The original inception described only the Primes and Ethereals, Astral, 6 Inner and 16 Outer planes. The Demi-planes, Para-elemental, Quasi-elemental, and Concordant Opposition (named the Outlands in 2E) were appended in late-1E. Sigil, Ravenloft, and numerous "other" planes and places were described in 2E. 3E presented the Great Tree and Astral Sea cosmologies, among others, which abandoned the traditional (yet inflexible) Great Wheel model. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
662 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2012 : 14:00:02
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planars in Planescape admit that nobody really knows the truth, there are theories, the Great Wheel was the most accepted
however some other aspects of the 4E cosmology cannot be reconciled with the old one no matter how you spin it |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 05:59:32
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The great wheel was actually square originally.
No, I'm not making a joke here. An illustration in one of my very early AD&D books showed it as a square. It wasn't 1e DD - that definitely shows it circular (and may have been the first depiction thus).
It might have been the 1e DMG or PHB.
And BTW, Ed fleshed-out a lot of Gygax's original (in Dragon articles), and all of that was later used in Planescape. The Great Wheel was the product of many talented people and years of creative process - it was a wonder. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37013 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 13:54:18
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I think it's possible to reconcile the Tree and the Wheel by saying the planes reached by the Tree are layers of planes, or domains, on the planes of the Wheel. Some work would still be necessary to make everything fit, but I think that's better than the WotC idea of "Yeah, the Wheel was there last week, but now it's a Tree that's always been there."
That said, I've seen complaints that the Wheel can't be used to accomodate additional planes. And I don't see how this is an issue. Most of the planes on the Wheel, if not all of them, are infinite -- so they can't possibly be confined to any one shape. It's just that when viewed from the Outlands, the arrangement of portals to those planes appears to form a wheel. Other planes can readily be squeezed in there; it's just that portals to them don't appear on the Wheel.
Actually, it might be more accurate to refer to the Outlands as the Hub, rather than saying the other planes are on a Wheel. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8091 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 14:11:20
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Yes, the Wheel was originally depicted in a squared-text fashion. Today our word processors automatically shuffle all the spellchecked text around inserted graphics, faithfully reproduced by the laser printers ... but back in the day of 1E things were done "manually", through horrible linotype layouts, ETOIAN SHRDLU and other things best left unmentioned. Squares were easier than circles.
As much as I generally prefer the [Squared] Wheel cosmology, I must admit that each system has many merits. Of course it's possible to wedge planes between the spokes or glue layers upon layers in some tangled multifolded calyx arrangement. But it's a lot easier to accomodate some planar notions within the Tree, the Ocean, the Sky, or whatever other analogy you use to comprehend and model the infinite cosmos. My observation is that complainers are essentially lazy; they want others to provide quick answers rather than expending effort to think or do things themselves ... whether they complain or not, they face the same options as everyone else: create your own option or simply accept one of the options you're given. |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 14:13:35
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When it comes to the subject of utilising material for both the Great Wheel and the Tree in the same campaign, I prefer to interpret both 'cosmologies' as fallible mortal maps of the same 'place' -- often relying heavily on the words of Ed for inspiration:-
"The Great Wheel or any other cosmology doesn’t bother me, just as avatar stats and the endless “but this god came first, or can beat that god” arguments don’t: mortal PCs can’t know the truth about the gods anyway, because every in-game source (supreme priests, avatars of the gods themselves, holy writings) they could possibly learn all this stuff from is biased. Everything. So it really is all up to the DM."
And, really, belief is what the planes are built upon. Every possible interpretation of every single plane is always a reality so long as there's mortals around to believe that's what they should be like. I find it fascinating that a party of adventures journeying across a particular plane might each view it differently -- every character's point of view determined by how they individually believe the plane should be. There are, of course, core elements that remain the same regardless of how each plane is viewed. These are the fundamental elements of a plane's structure. But everything else is mutable.
Or, to paraphrase the words of the Eleventh Doctor:- "It's a big multiverse. Everything happens somewhere." |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37013 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 14:34:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Yes, the Wheel was originally depicted in a squared-text fashion. Today our word processors automatically shuffle all the spellchecked text around inserted graphics, faithfully reproduced by the laser printers ... but back in the day of 1E things were done "manually", through horrible linotype layouts, ETOIAN SHRDLU and other things best left unmentioned. Squares were easier than circles.
As much as I generally prefer the [Squared] Wheel cosmology, I must admit that each system has many merits. Of course it's possible to wedge planes between the spokes or glue layers upon layers in some tangled multifolded calyx arrangement. But it's a lot easier to accomodate some planar notions within the Tree, the Ocean, the Sky, or whatever other analogy you use to comprehend and model the infinite cosmos. My observation is that complainers are essentially lazy; they want others to provide quick answers rather than expending effort to think or do things themselves ... whether they complain or not, they face the same options as everyone else: create your own option or simply accept one of the options you're given.
I don't think it's fair to say that if someone finds a particular version workable, and then that version is replaced without explanation, that not liking it makes them lazy. That's going back down the same road of being dismissive to those of other viewpoints, which is a cornerstone of the edition wars. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8091 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2012 : 01:14:32
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| I wholeheartedly agree that continuity needs to be maintained with last week's cosmology, and yes there are less noxious ways of presenting new planar models which don't invalidate existing notions. Still, different metaphors are better suited to different tasks, and new or old, every cosmic metaphor has some advantages over the others when explaining certain "quirky" properties. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 04:31:29
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| Didn't see this till now as I generally don't browse through here except for once a week for new threads. I'll respond -likely at length- after I'm done with work this evening. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 05:02:03
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*takes off the keketar protean glyph crown and puts on the razorvine crown*
Sorry, I've been largely absorbed in Golarion's cosmology of late, so I'm having to switch tracks here a bit. :) It's not a bad situation, I'll tell you that.
There's no simple answer to your question, so you're going to get a lot of text here. There's both in-setting and out of setting issues to deal with. The Great Wheel cosmology of 1e/2e/3e slowly evolved over time, but there were really no tectonic shifts and it was largely a case of slowly expanding, more detailed descriptions of the planes as time went on. Any structural changes were more or less issues of semantics.
The Wheel was simply a model, albeit the most recognized one, and you have to realize that it's a model of multiple infinite places. The relationship between the planes of the Wheel is one of conceptual closeness, not physical proximity. Gehenna is NE/LE and thus because of this alignment is described as "between" the Waste and Baator and also connected to the Outlands by way of the gatetown of Torch.
You can arrange it different ways, but as long as the conceptual links and "distance" is preserved, the Wheel can bend into whatever shape you want.
3e didn't change much of substance. The deep ethereal wasn't talked about much, but it was still there. The quasi and paraelemental planes were mentioned briefly as border regions of the cardinal elemental planes, but again issues of semantics rather than relationships. Shadow was called a full transitive plane, which following Ed Bonny's article on the (demi)Plane of Shadow in Dragon, it really wasn't much of a new thing to consider it such.
3e FR was a unique case in that it attempted to (with only partial success IMO) to present itself with a unique cosmology in 3e, after having been one of the poster children of worlds set within the Great Wheel for two previous editions, including material both within its own FR branded products and the Planescape line as well. Ebberon was much more successful in that it had a unique cosmology but it was created from the start in print with that different cosmology. I cannot begrudge it that. FR's magic television sort-of-retcon failed in that the changes were largely still semantic and it had reams of intricate backhistory connected to places in the Great Wheel, and sometimes overt mentions of things like Sigil, etc. But it's still recognizable with little problems as still being more or less the same planes (helped by the fact that the 3e FR planes were barely detailed as distinct things).
4e however made a giant break from it all. It doesn't use the Great Wheel, nor does it claim to. It presents a radically different cosmology of its own, with cherry picked elements from the Wheel. It's mutually exclusive from the Great Wheel in any warped, spindled, folded, or mutilated version that it might be put into. It's not simply a case of mortal perceptions might be wrong and the cosmos really existed that way. It's a completely different origin story for the cosmos, different natures and identities for specific creatures and entire races. Some outsiders vanished completely, others popped up out of nowhere.
4e also forced its new cosmology on already established worlds, retconning its presence, backstory, and various tropes into full-fledged existance in FR, Darksun, etc. The continuity issues are in word, Godawful.
Now having said that, there are ways to approach the topic that can recapture some semblance of continuity or meta-meta-setting connection between the Great Wheel and 4e's cosmology if we treat the 4e cosmos as its own new thing. I'm not the only person that has similar ideas, and I'm not at all averse to having radically different cosmologies - so long as they don't attempt to claim to be what was there all along, despite the continuity nightmares they introduce.
That's where FR starts to have problems in 4e. For FR on its own it's much more difficult in that it has had three different cosmologies now, with the latest one being pretty much mutually exclusive to the others and nearly antithetical to continuity. By preference I would strip FR out of the force-fit PoL 4e cosmology and either back into the Great Wheel or back into the 3e era FR Tree which preserved the broad elements of continuity and basic identities of the outsider races that had established history within the setting and then abruptly vanished or radically changed in 4e with no explanation. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8091 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 05:39:45
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Shemmy, dazzling us with your exhaustive mastery of planeslore once again. 
I've got a quick question (hoping for a quick answer):
Given Abeir's 4E status, explained as some kind of isolated mirror world or cosmic timeout or whatever ... how and where would you place it within the cosmos of late-2E's Great Wheel (that is, where there is only "one" Prime), and within 3E's Great Tree? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 07:37:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Shemmy, dazzling us with your exhaustive mastery of planeslore once again.
I've got a quick question (hoping for a quick answer):
Given Abeir's 4E status, explained as some kind of isolated mirror world or cosmic timeout or whatever ... how and where would you place it within the cosmos of late-2E's Great Wheel (that is, where there is only "one" Prime), and within 3E's Great Tree?
I'd dump it either into a sealed demiplane in the ethereal in close proximity to or even touching Toril's veil of color (ick, I'm rusty on my 2e terminology here, been so focused on Golarion lately). You could handle it similar to how Athas was handled as a sealed off world as well in terms of connections to other planes, or lack thereof. Or I'd just handle it as a unique situation and create some classification all its own.
Within 3E's Great Tree either the same thing or just as a mirror prime material next to Toril (though this is a bad term here since within 3e, just what exactly the or a prime material plane encompassed changed depending on the author. Sometimes it was just used to define a planet, other times the old use of the term, and other uses altogether. Really didn't care for the random use of the term) |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8091 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 07:44:44
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The sealed demiplane of Abeir ... perfect!
Thanx Shemmy, I'll be sure to book a cruise through Chamada Holiday Specials LLC, if I can ever find it.  |
[/Ayrik] |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 09:27:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Thanx Shemmy, I'll be sure to book a cruise through Chamada Holiday Specials LLC, if I can ever find it.
I'm sure that you'd enjoy your vacation in Gehenna's 2nd layer, especially Xvim's now destroyed domain. Lovely place the 2nd furnace. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 02:48:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
4e however made a giant break from it all. It doesn't use the Great Wheel, nor does it claim to. It presents a radically different cosmology of its own, with cherry picked elements from the Wheel. It's mutually exclusive from the Great Wheel in any warped, spindled, folded, or mutilated version that it might be put into. It's not simply a case of mortal perceptions might be wrong and the cosmos really existed that way. It's a completely different origin story for the cosmos, different natures and identities for specific creatures and entire races. Some outsiders vanished completely, others popped up out of nowhere.
4e also forced its new cosmology on already established worlds, retconning its presence, backstory, and various tropes into full-fledged existance in FR, Darksun, etc. The continuity issues are in word, Godawful.
Now having said that, there are ways to approach the topic that can recapture some semblance of continuity or meta-meta-setting connection between the Great Wheel and 4e's cosmology if we treat the 4e cosmos as its own new thing. I'm not the only person that has similar ideas, and I'm not at all averse to having radically different cosmologies - so long as they don't attempt to claim to be what was there all along, despite the continuity nightmares they introduce.
That's where FR starts to have problems in 4e. For FR on its own it's much more difficult in that it has had three different cosmologies now, with the latest one being pretty much mutually exclusive to the others and nearly antithetical to continuity. By preference I would strip FR out of the force-fit PoL 4e cosmology and either back into the Great Wheel or back into the 3e era FR Tree which preserved the broad elements of continuity and basic identities of the outsider races that had established history within the setting and then abruptly vanished or radically changed in 4e with no explanation.
This is my preference too... and not just because it has the added side effect of giving us a way to retcon the Spellplague. Note that this doesn't mean that the Spellplague never existed; according to the 4E designers, we need to maintain continuity and compatibility with all previous editions, including an edition whose goal was to shatter all semblance of such continuity and compatibility. I would argue that this goal in itself will invalidate 4E, but I think that's my cynic talking. It just means that the Spellplague becomes an alternate reality, and therefore a separate "material plane" or crystal sphere of its own. I still prefer the 2E Spelljammer cosmos with a single material plane consisting of individual crystal spheres, myself; I would replace the phlogiston with the Astral Sea, however, making spelljamming a specialized form of planar travel in itself; when you exit a crystal sphere, you enter the Astral Plane (or Sea; the terminology is a matter of choice here). Anyway, the cosmology is going to be a tough matter to reconcile, unless they take the same approach with it that they seem to be taking with the core mechanics; use the version you like best, and there is no single "canon" cosmology. Even if they do this, we're going to need a way to equate them, otherwise novels involving planar travel become impossible without imposing canonical status on one version or another. One further thought on this... either way, the 4e cosmology is distinctly described as "different" because the Abyss and the Hells were forcibly separated from the other Lower Planes. So... here's a challenge for our scribes, particularly us grognards who have been around for all four editions: Come up with a planar model that can be visually translated into the Great Wheel, the Great Tree, and the 4e cosmology. I hope your ability to visualize 5- or 6-dimensional spaces is good...  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37013 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 05:19:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
So... here's a challenge for our scribes, particularly us grognards who have been around for all four editions: Come up with a planar model that can be visually translated into the Great Wheel, the Great Tree, and the 4e cosmology. I hope your ability to visualize 5- or 6-dimensional spaces is good...
Well, earlier in this thread I offered a way to reconcile the Tree and the Wheel... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 06:54:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
So... here's a challenge for our scribes, particularly us grognards who have been around for all four editions: Come up with a planar model that can be visually translated into the Great Wheel, the Great Tree, and the 4e cosmology. I hope your ability to visualize 5- or 6-dimensional spaces is good...
Well, earlier in this thread I offered a way to reconcile the Tree and the Wheel...
And I think Ed's theory, which I've coupled with my own ramblings, and that I commented on earlier, offers another intriguing way to reconcile the Tree and the Wheel.
And it doubly works for answering Jakk's query, because it relies on the perception of the mortal planar observer! |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1607 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 09:50:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
(...)
I still prefer the 2E Spelljammer cosmos with a single material plane consisting of individual crystal spheres, myself; I would replace the phlogiston with the Astral Sea, however, making spelljamming a specialized form of planar travel in itself; when you exit a crystal sphere, you enter the Astral Plane (or Sea; the terminology is a matter of choice here).
(...)
Jakk, don't you think the Ethereal would be a better choice, then? It also touches the Material Plane, and it is linked to the Inner Planes, and that would not make Spelljamming an Outer Planar experience (it would be more an elemental than a divine experience). |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8091 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 11:09:22
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Even that depends on which edition of planeslore you prefer. In early models with an infinite number of Alternate Prime Material planes each was surrounded by an (Alternate) Ethereal plane, and technically connected to the Inner and Outer planes only through the Astral plane. There were many anomalies, such as the Demiplane of Dread (Ravenloft) possibly being connected to any world through "the" Ethereal plane ... and of course, Sigil.
But yes, the Phlogiston of Spelljammer does seem to be conceptually similar to the Astral plane, and perhaps even directly linked in some tangential fashion. Githyanki, Gith Pirates, organic warships of the Elven Armada, and the legendary Spelljammer city-ship itself can all translate themselves between the Phlog and the Astral.
If Spelljammer space occupies a discrete transitive plane like the Ethereal or Astral then it follows that the Crystal Spheres should somehow function as fixed barriers across all of these planes as well. They apparently present a sharp boundary which isolates the "stuff" inside and outside, preventing any leakage or mixing of planar matter. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1607 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 13:41:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Even that depends on which edition of planeslore you prefer. In early models with an infinite number of Alternate Prime Material planes each was surrounded by an (Alternate) Ethereal plane, and technically connected to the Inner and Outer planes only through the Astral plane. (...)
Well, in 2e Planescape the connection with the Inner Planes (and with alternate Primes) was through the Ethereal, and the Outer Planes were linked by the Astral. I thought it was the same in 1e. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37013 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 18:49:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Even that depends on which edition of planeslore you prefer. In early models with an infinite number of Alternate Prime Material planes each was surrounded by an (Alternate) Ethereal plane, and technically connected to the Inner and Outer planes only through the Astral plane. There were many anomalies, such as the Demiplane of Dread (Ravenloft) possibly being connected to any world through "the" Ethereal plane ... and of course, Sigil.
But yes, the Phlogiston of Spelljammer does seem to be conceptually similar to the Astral plane, and perhaps even directly linked in some tangential fashion. Githyanki, Gith Pirates, organic warships of the Elven Armada, and the legendary Spelljammer city-ship itself can all translate themselves between the Phlog and the Astral.
If Spelljammer space occupies a discrete transitive plane like the Ethereal or Astral then it follows that the Crystal Spheres should somehow function as fixed barriers across all of these planes as well. They apparently present a sharp boundary which isolates the "stuff" inside and outside, preventing any leakage or mixing of planar matter.
Pirates of Gith can only pull that trick inside a crystal sphere, since there are no planar connections to the Flow. This is explicitly stated in their write-up (I just checked; that's one of the pdfs I bought when they were still available). |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 01 Feb 2012 18:49:51 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 01:19:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
There were many anomalies, such as the Demiplane of Dread (Ravenloft) possibly being connected to any world through "the" Ethereal plane ... and of course, Sigil.
Actually, the Demiplane of Dread's connection to other worlds was left largely vague. We know they exist, and that many worlds can and have been touched. But that's about it. How and why they operate is left purely to the whims of the Dark Powers. [And, by extension, the DM, I suppose.] |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 05:03:24
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| Not Cosmology, but a question for Shemmy, while reading through Dead Gods I happened upon a reference to the Great Conclave of Eagles. Do you know of any other reference to this august assembly? |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 08 Feb 2012 05:33:18 |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2012 : 19:04:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
Not Cosmology, but a question for Shemmy, while reading through Dead Gods I happened upon a reference to the Great Conclave of Eagles. Do you know of any other reference to this august assembly?
Not off the top of my head no. What page was this so I can look. Was it related to the eagles gathered on the branches of Yggdrasil (at a location called the Salience IIRC)? |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2012 : 22:06:14
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| Why, yes. Yes it was. What a memory! |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Question for Shemska the Marauder: Cosmology
