| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 19:57:40
|
I have read somewhere that the mythal over evereska has an effect that makes humanoids immune to aging. Essentially making people who live there immortal.
Can anyone confirm this???
THX
|
|
|
Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 22:22:52
|
| No such idea is provided in Volo's notes on Evereska in Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast, and if there was any such rumor, he'd be on it quite quickly. |
 |
|
|
Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 00:15:09
|
| I think you're thinking of Myth Drannor's mythal. Which did stop aging of all beings within it after five years of continuously dwelling within the mythal. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 00:50:32
|
I can't recall any mention of such effects in Return of the Archwizards, where Evereskans played major roles. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 00:55:37
|
I didn’t think so... though it seems kind of fitting actually.
Another question I have is about the inhabitants of Evereska. On FR wiki, it says that Evereska is guarded by Eladrin warriors. Is Evereska really guarded and populated by the Eladrin found in MM1 or is it simply just "normal" moon and sun elves???
|
|
|
|
Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 01:05:47
|
| Remember that moon and sun elves are part of the eladrin race in 4e. That's what they're referring to. |
|
|
|
Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 01:09:53
|
I thought elves were decendants of the Eladrin...
But I was thinking late 2ed - 3.x ed. Around year 1360-1374! |
Edited by - Nicolai Withander on 02 Feb 2012 01:11:45 |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 01:16:50
|
Hoondatha has the right of it.
Besides, I recall Steven Schend once said that he considered "Evereska's mythal to be among the more long-standing and healthier ones, simply because only elves ever entered Evereska until Khelben (and then suddenly a whole flood of non-elves with the Archwizards trilogy)."
So if we're only talking humans, then I doubt this is likely.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 01:42:18
|
| Sorry, I got myself a little tongue tied. 4e calls gold and moon elves collectively eladrin and drops the old meaning; with how indistinct the FR wiki is, they likely copied that information from a 4e source without really thinking about it. |
|
|
|
Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 09:50:23
|
| Ok... så its not the Eledrin race from MM1 its "just" elves... right? |
|
|
|
Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 13:49:36
|
If you're working with the 2e-3e definitions, yes. Evereska is home to moon and gold elves, who are elves.
If you're working with the 4e definitions, which removed the eladrin extraplanar race and calls gold and moon elves eladrins, then Evereksa is home to moon and gold eladrin. Same people, though. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3773 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2012 : 05:09:10
|
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Another question I have is about the inhabitants of Evereska. On FR wiki, it says that Evereska is guarded by Eladrin warriors. Is Evereska really guarded and populated by the Eladrin found in MM1 or is it simply just "normal" moon and sun elves???
-I would not be surprised if it were protected by Eladrin, as in the extraplanar Chaotic Good creatures. Eladrin are servitors of most members of the Seldarine. While Evereska is still recovering from the Phaerimm and Fey'ri sieges, it would make sense that the Seldarine keep a little extra eye on the city- it wouldn't be good if looters gained access to the city while it was on hard times and made off with priceless Elven artifacts and knowledge. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
|
|
|
Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1607 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2012 : 10:40:08
|
Although I agree with Lord Karsus, I think the text on FR wiki was referring to eladrin elves. But nothing impedes the Seldarine from putting some servants there, too. After all, if there are gold and silver dragons in disguise there, why not celestal eladrin?  |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
|
|
|
Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2012 : 17:08:44
|
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
If you're working with the 2e-3e definitions, yes. Evereska is home to moon and gold elves, who are elves.
If you're working with the 4e definitions, which removed the eladrin extraplanar race and calls gold and moon elves eladrins, then Evereksa is home to moon and gold eladrin. Same people, though.
It's a mechanical nuance that has been discussed many times, and a satisfactory answer proves elusive.
As I see it, the fey progenitor race is eladrin (as in the CG outsiders), and elves (moon, sun, wood, wild, etc) are their descendents, being "trapped" in a mortal world and away from the energies of Faerie/the Feywild. Over time, these creatures evolved away from their extraplanar roots, until you could really make a distinction between mortal fey and immortal eladrin.
Since the Spellplague, eladrin have returned to the Realms (symbolically in line with the Return we had in the Last Mythal series), and moon/sun elves have become more like their extraplanar relatives. Faerunian-born "eladrin" are still called elves, however, though some sages in the Realms refer to them as "eladrin." What old guard gamers are accustomed to calling "eladrin" (CG outsiders) still exist--in 4e terms, they are high level eladrin who do not consider themselves elves.
Basically, the designers expanded the definition of the term "eladrin" to include the planar servants of the Seldarine, independent masters of the world of Faerie (the Feywild), as well as sun and moon elves (mechanically) in the mortal Realms, whether they hail from the mortal World or the Feywild originally.
Cheers
|
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3773 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2012 : 18:05:06
|
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
As I see it, the fey progenitor race is eladrin (as in the CG outsiders), and elves (moon, sun, wood, wild, etc) are their descendents, being "trapped" in a mortal world and away from the energies of Faerie/the Feywild. Over time, these creatures evolved away from their extraplanar roots, until you could really make a distinction between mortal fey and immortal eladrin.
-The Fey Creator Race in Realmspace are seemingly the leShay, which while they don't appear in 4e mechanics, are still a different race than the Chaotic Good extraplanar Outsider Eladrin (until retconned, if ever). Also, while not really relevant, I think it's important to note that the Fey Creator Race- regardless of what race you want to consider them, leShay, Eladrin, something new and different all together- didn't so much as create the various Fey races that live on Abeir-Toril (they only directly spawned Pixies, Sprites, and Korreds) so much as they "introduced" them, being the ones to either to open portals to the planet and transport them over or make the creatures aware that the planet existed. This is different from other Creator Races, such as the Sarrukh, or Batrachi, who either directly created other races (Yuan-Ti), or indirectly evolved into other races (Slaadi). I've seen people use strange mental gymnastics to rectify the Fey Creator Race of the Forgotten Realms having created everything Fey, everywhere, in the face of information and lore established elsewhere (in other core books and other setting-specific books, with their own explanations).
-But anyway, the notion that Elves possessed abilities similar to Eladrin but had them dissipate as the race as a whole spent more time removed from Faerie and more time living on the Material Plane doesn't really pan out. The Wood Elves who were brought to the Material Plane by the aforementioned leShay/Fey Creator Race via portals in -27,000 DR were not known to have possessed any kind of abilities/powers/traits other than what they are listed as having contemporarily. The Sun and Moon Elf survivors of Tintageer who arrived in -25,400 DR were not known to have possessed any kind of abilities/powers/traits other than what they are listed as having contemporarily. In regards to both groups, neither were exhibiting any kinds of extra-Elven abilities/powers/traits in the immediate aftermath- if they had such abilities/powers/traits on the Plane of Faerie, they would have presumably become vestigial, and no evidence points to that. Also, if it were so easy as simple "contact" with the Plane of Faerie- as in, while in Faerie, an Elf would be more 'in-tune' with their natural roots, and regain the immortality that they once possessed, or other magical abilities- we would have seen examples of it in action. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 29 Feb 2012 18:11:10 |
|
|
|
Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1607 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2012 : 19:22:43
|
Maybe the records of these abilities were lost... However, it is strange that wild elves have lost the ability more than their sun/moon cousins. Besides, there are some celestial eladrin that look like sprites, but still sprites and pixies haven't lost their magic (some are mighty spellcasters indeed).
And I may be wrong, but I understood that Evermeet was a piece of Faerie in Toril (brought through a High Magic ritual), so why wouldn't the elves of the Green Isle show some of those magic skills? I think making it a secret the elves kept from the other races would be too much of a retcon...
And what about the Lythari, which powers could they retain, having their refuge there? Maybe their shapechange and planewalking abilities would be the reflex of these lost powers? |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
|
|
|
Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2012 : 19:35:57
|
No, Evermeet is a piece of Arvandor brought to Faerun, not Faerie. Unless that's been retconned too.
And Erik, I appreciate the line you're trying to dance, both in this thread and elsewhere, but at least in this case I don't think it's necessary. In 3e and before, FR gold and moon elves were elves. Same race, different subrace. In 4e the exact same people are called eladrin, and are a different race (one also different than the eladrins that existed before). There really isn't any way of reconciling that without just throwing up your hands and sighing, "Retcon." The only way I can see it is you either choose completely the 2e-3e way, or the 4e way, because they aren't compatable. Which is what was causing the FR wiki confusion in the first place. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
|
|
|
Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2012 : 22:02:04
|
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
If you're working with the 2e-3e definitions, yes. Evereska is home to moon and gold elves, who are elves.
If you're working with the 4e definitions, which removed the eladrin extraplanar race and calls gold and moon elves eladrins, then Evereksa is home to moon and gold eladrin. Same people, though.
It's a mechanical nuance that has been discussed many times, and a satisfactory answer proves elusive.
As I see it, the fey progenitor race is eladrin (as in the CG outsiders), and elves (moon, sun, wood, wild, etc) are their descendents, being "trapped" in a mortal world and away from the energies of Faerie/the Feywild. Over time, these creatures evolved away from their extraplanar roots, until you could really make a distinction between mortal fey and immortal eladrin.
Since the Spellplague, eladrin have returned to the Realms (symbolically in line with the Return we had in the Last Mythal series), and moon/sun elves have become more like their extraplanar relatives. Faerunian-born "eladrin" are still called elves, however, though some sages in the Realms refer to them as "eladrin." What old guard gamers are accustomed to calling "eladrin" (CG outsiders) still exist--in 4e terms, they are high level eladrin who do not consider themselves elves.
Basically, the designers expanded the definition of the term "eladrin" to include the planar servants of the Seldarine, independent masters of the world of Faerie (the Feywild), as well as sun and moon elves (mechanically) in the mortal Realms, whether they hail from the mortal World or the Feywild originally.
Cheers
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
No, Evermeet is a piece of Arvandor brought to Faerun, not Faerie. Unless that's been retconned too.
And Erik, I appreciate the line you're trying to dance, both in this thread and elsewhere, but at least in this case I don't think it's necessary. In 3e and before, FR gold and moon elves were elves. Same race, different subrace. In 4e the exact same people are called eladrin, and are a different race (one also different than the eladrins that existed before). There really isn't any way of reconciling that without just throwing up your hands and sighing, "Retcon." The only way I can see it is you either choose completely the 2e-3e way, or the 4e way, because they aren't compatable. Which is what was causing the FR wiki confusion in the first place.
I don't know about that... I think we can make Erik's fix work here. If the "eladrin" of the 4e Realms are descendants of "true" eladrin, now effectively elven after generations of dilution of the celestial blood, I think that works; and the "true" eladrin who recently arrived in the Realms with Evermeet's closer ties to Arvandor referred to them as "eladrin" because that's what they were the last time Arvandor had a significant presence in the Realms. Still, my vote is for bringing back the pre-4e definition of eladrin; it caused far less confusion, imho. Of course, now that's going to cause confusion for those who started with 4e...  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 29 Feb 2012 22:09:03 |
|
|
|
Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1607 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 10:46:42
|
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
No, Evermeet is a piece of Arvandor brought to Faerun, not Faerie. Unless that's been retconned too.
(...)
I thought maybe this would be the case. However, if Faerie was the original home of the eladrin and contact with it would give them their "original powers", Arvandor would have the same property, maybe stronger, for it would be the eladrin paradise. Being so, I still can see a reason for Evermeet elves not to lose their eladrin powers, according to this theory.
However, I play in the 2e, and still think of eladrin as the celestial minions of the Seldarine, and members of a separate court in the planes. Thinking this way, I still stick to Lord Karsus' first suggestion of the city being defended by elven eladrin and having a few celestial eladrin working for the Seldarine to assure the safety of a vulnerable Evereska.
I even thought that maybe they could be planar descendants of the LeShay as much as the Slaad are descendants of the amphibian creator race, or a creation of them as the yuan-ti were created by the sarrukh, but this is just speculation. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3773 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 16:50:41
|
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
And Erik, I appreciate the line you're trying to dance, both in this thread and elsewhere, but at least in this case I don't think it's necessary. In 3e and before, FR gold and moon elves were elves. Same race, different subrace. In 4e the exact same people are called eladrin, and are a different race (one also different than the eladrins that existed before). There really isn't any way of reconciling that without just throwing up your hands and sighing, "Retcon." The only way I can see it is you either choose completely the 2e-3e way, or the 4e way, because they aren't compatable. Which is what was causing the FR wiki confusion in the first place.
-I don't see why a new name had to be used, and, if one absolutely had to be used, why a new name couldn't have been made-up. Using the same term for two (historically) very different things has obviously caused a mess of confusion.
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
I don't know about that... I think we can make Erik's fix work here. If the "eladrin" of the 4e Realms are descendants of "true" eladrin, now effectively elven after generations of dilution of the celestial blood, I think that works; and the "true" eladrin who recently arrived in the Realms with Evermeet's closer ties to Arvandor referred to them as "eladrin" because that's what they were the last time Arvandor had a significant presence in the Realms. Still, my vote is for bringing back the pre-4e definition of eladrin; it caused far less confusion, imho. Of course, now that's going to cause confusion for those who started with 4e...
-That still doesn't work; you would still have Eladrin (4e version) who are firmly entrenched in Faerûn and would have the 4e powers that, in past editions of D&D, these individuals never had, and would be referred to as 'Eladrin', despite being referred to as 'Sun/Moon Elves' previously. The Durothil, for example. They're one of the most venerable houses in Realmspace, being some of the original refugees from Tintageer. They are primarily 4e Eladrin, complete with new 4e powers- despite having lived on Abeir-Toril for some 25,000+ years, they'd suddenly find themselves with those new mechanics. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 01 Mar 2012 16:55:48 |
|
|
|
Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2012 : 02:00:16
|
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-I don't see why a new name had to be used, and, if one absolutely had to be used, why a new name couldn't have been made-up. Using the same term for two (historically) very different things has obviously caused a mess of confusion.
No argument here on this point.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
I don't know about that... I think we can make Erik's fix work here. If the "eladrin" of the 4e Realms are descendants of "true" eladrin, now effectively elven after generations of dilution of the celestial blood, I think that works; and the "true" eladrin who recently arrived in the Realms with Evermeet's closer ties to Arvandor referred to them as "eladrin" because that's what they were the last time Arvandor had a significant presence in the Realms. Still, my vote is for bringing back the pre-4e definition of eladrin; it caused far less confusion, imho. Of course, now that's going to cause confusion for those who started with 4e...
-That still doesn't work; you would still have Eladrin (4e version) who are firmly entrenched in Faerûn and would have the 4e powers that, in past editions of D&D, these individuals never had, and would be referred to as 'Eladrin', despite being referred to as 'Sun/Moon Elves' previously. The Durothil, for example. They're one of the most venerable houses in Realmspace, being some of the original refugees from Tintageer. They are primarily 4e Eladrin, complete with new 4e powers- despite having lived on Abeir-Toril for some 25,000+ years, they'd suddenly find themselves with those new mechanics.
Okay, now you've got me ready to throw in the towel and say "retcon the retcon"... but I don't think we'll see that happen, for all that we think it should.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3773 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2012 : 02:32:46
|
-It's really the name that messed everything up, when you think about it.
-On it's own, saying that Sun/Moon/Star Elves become somehow fundamentally altered when the Weave was destroyed, because they are so attuned to the Weave, would make sense. Losing abilities, as opposed to gaining them, would make more sense, but whatever- it's magic, it works in mysterious ways, blah, blah, blah. Linking these Elves with Eladrin is what causes the problems- Sun/Moon/Star Elves are now called Eladrin, and the creatures that used to be Eladrin are still Eladrin (but are 'High Eladrin' or whatever the terms is that is used to differentiate the two). Two different, distinct races are now linked as one, and all kinds of mental gymnastics and fudges are needed to rectify it all to satisfactory degrees.
-When 4e was first in development, if the designers simply used the 4e Eladrin mechanics for Sun/Moon/Star Elves, but kept their own separate and unique identities in-setting, we probably wouldn't be having these kinds of problems. I brought up this exact thing when I conducted an interview with him, and Bruce Cordell told me that Sun/Moon/Star Elves would continue being referred to and addressed as Sun/Moon/Star Elves in-setting, and that calling them 'Eladrin' was primarily going to be a metagame mechanics thing- my concern was that Sun/Moon/Star Elves would lose their identities, or have them altered in-setting if they were called 'Eladrin' in-setting as well. For the most part, exactly what I was hoping wouldn't happen did. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
|
|
|
Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2012 : 03:35:09
|
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-It's really the name that messed everything up, when you think about it.
-On it's own, saying that Sun/Moon/Star Elves become somehow fundamentally altered when the Weave was destroyed, because they are so attuned to the Weave, would make sense. Losing abilities, as opposed to gaining them, would make more sense, but whatever- it's magic, it works in mysterious ways, blah, blah, blah. Linking these Elves with Eladrin is what causes the problems- Sun/Moon/Star Elves are now called Eladrin, and the creatures that used to be Eladrin are still Eladrin (but are 'High Eladrin' or whatever the terms is that is used to differentiate the two). Two different, distinct races are now linked as one, and all kinds of mental gymnastics and fudges are needed to rectify it all to satisfactory degrees.
And so, now that they've made retcons that make things make no sense, they want to say now "no more retcons" (or, presumably, undoing of past retcons). In my view, this doesn't help. 
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-When 4e was first in development, if the designers simply used the 4e Eladrin mechanics for Sun/Moon/Star Elves, but kept their own separate and unique identities in-setting, we probably wouldn't be having these kinds of problems. I brought up this exact thing when I conducted an interview with him, and Bruce Cordell told me that Sun/Moon/Star Elves would continue being referred to and addressed as Sun/Moon/Star Elves in-setting, and that calling them 'Eladrin' was primarily going to be a metagame mechanics thing- my concern was that Sun/Moon/Star Elves would lose their identities, or have them altered in-setting if they were called 'Eladrin' in-setting as well. For the most part, exactly what I was hoping wouldn't happen did.
From my point of view, this was true on so many levels I can't begin to count them. The more I look at everything together, the time-jump, the NPC-massacre, the mass deicide... the worst things were the retcons.  Anyway, I guess we'll see how (or if) they fix it all (or any of it). Hopefully they pay close attention to Erik's thread; there have been some good ideas thrown out there. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 02 Mar 2012 03:37:03 |
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3773 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2012 : 03:44:49
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
And so, now that they've made retcons that make things make no sense, they want to say now "no more retcons" (or, presumably, undoing of past retcons). In my view, this doesn't help.
-It's like paying off a credit card with another credit card. And then, when that credit card needs to be paid, using another credit card, and another credit card. Yeah, sure, you can keep going for however long before your finances topple like the house of cards that they are, but you really should stop as soon as you can. Retcons are like that. Can you fix all of these problems (caused by retcons) with more retcons? Sure. You'd just be passing the buck, so to speak, and eventually, pbbt, it just all comes crashing down. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
|
|
|
Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2012 : 23:19:27
|
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
And so, now that they've made retcons that make things make no sense, they want to say now "no more retcons" (or, presumably, undoing of past retcons). In my view, this doesn't help.
-It's like paying off a credit card with another credit card. And then, when that credit card needs to be paid, using another credit card, and another credit card. Yeah, sure, you can keep going for however long before your finances topple like the house of cards that they are, but you really should stop as soon as you can. Retcons are like that. Can you fix all of these problems (caused by retcons) with more retcons? Sure. You'd just be passing the buck, so to speak, and eventually, pbbt, it just all comes crashing down.
I agree... but I'm talking about undoing past retcons, not adding more to the pile... but maybe there's no difference between the two, once material is published with the "latest kewl" retcons. *sigh* Well, here's hoping that Elminster's Forgotten Realms out-sells all previous FR products, and they start publishing Ed's Realms as fast as he can turn legible copy over to them.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
|
|
|
Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2012 : 23:36:16
|
I suppose I should try to get this scroll back on topic, since I pulled it off course to begin with...
I think LK is right about the designers having needed to use a new term instead of redefining "eladrin"... but then, one of the missions of the 4E Realms was to invalidate the old lore, even if it's not spun that way. The simple fact is, you don't need to read a thousand pages to run a campaign set in the pre-Spellplague Realms, and the people who believed otherwise should have been shouted down. But they weren't, and now we're here. So... obviously, something has to change for 5e, or we're going to perpetuate that confusion through another edition, and that does nobody any favours, least of all the new players/readers who might be drawn into the setting via older products.
The simplest answer, imho, is to simply embrace the new canon and say that sun (gold) and moon (silver) elves (and presumably the star (mithral) elves as well) have always been associated with the extraplanar eladrin because of their "immigrant" status re: the Realms. Because of this, non-elves began referring to them as "eladrin" and the Toril-native green elves began doing the same, in an effort to maintain a distinction between themselves and the "interlopers", and over time, the appellation has stuck. If we're going to have a retcon, I'd prefer going with an existing one of terminology rather than creating a new one of ontology and terminology (which is what introducing a new term now would do). But we need to bring back the celestial eladrin for this to make sense, and that may serve only to complicate matters, if the new edition isn't absolutely clear that "eladrin" is a popular misnomer when applied to the sun, moon, and star elves. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 02 Mar 2012 23:37:26 |
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3773 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 01:22:44
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
I agree... but I'm talking about undoing past retcons, not adding more to the pile... but maybe there's no difference between the two, once material is published with the "latest kewl" retcons.
-No, I get that. That's why I used a credit card analogy: When you use one card to pay off another card (using a retcon to remove past retcons), the debt is gone on that one card (the first retcon), but the "baggage" still exists (the implications and continuity problems that resulted in the first retcon randomly being removed without explanation), in the form of debt on your new card.
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
*sigh* Well, here's hoping that Elminster's Forgotten Realms out-sells all previous FR products, and they start publishing Ed's Realms as fast as he can turn legible copy over to them.
-Which would be one of the worst things that could happen to it. Since it's inception on the mass market, it's been "owned" by TSR/WotC, and the world has grown intertwined with D&D. Removed from WotC, and D&D, the setting would be very nearly irrevocably changed. Talking about giant retcons, that'd be the biggest one of all. Take for example, Beholders. WotC owns the rights to Beholders as we understand them. If the Forgotten Realms were not a licensed WotC product, Forgotten Realms products would not legally be able to use Beholders as we understand them. They'd have to be replaced with creatures that were similar, but could not be confused with Beholders, as not to violate copyright laws and trigger legal problems and such between WotC and whatever company licensed the Forgotten Realms to make any new products mass marketed (Ed Greenwood can't do that by himself). The same goes for various aspects of the setting, which were influenced by non-public domain information (Items, Spells, Planes, etc.). Novels would be affected as well- I don't know the details, but Mr. de Bie's (using him as an example, since most people generally have a very favorable opinion of his books) contract might say that he can't write books for other companies outside of WotC. Or, he might be too busy, with other contracted projects.
-People like to look at the romanticized version of things, where everything works out and things become happily ever after, but reality is reality.
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
I think LK is right about the designers having needed to use a new term instead of redefining "eladrin"... but then, one of the missions of the 4E Realms was to invalidate the old lore, even if it's not spun that way...
-Can't agree with the wording. Most information hasn't been invalidated, it's just been marginalized (if you want it to be) by virtue of the setting having been moved 102 years into the future of where the 3e timeline ended. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 03 Mar 2012 01:30:09 |
|
|
|
Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 01:52:22
|
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
I agree... but I'm talking about undoing past retcons, not adding more to the pile... but maybe there's no difference between the two, once material is published with the "latest kewl" retcons.
-No, I get that. That's why I used a credit card analogy: When you use one card to pay off another card (using a retcon to remove past retcons), the debt is gone on that one card (the first retcon), but the "baggage" still exists (the implications and continuity problems that resulted in the first retcon randomly being removed without explanation), in the form of debt on your new card.
True enough... 20/20 hindsight and all, but some sort of "Imaskari barrier" against retcons would have served Toril well...
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
*sigh* Well, here's hoping that Elminster's Forgotten Realms out-sells all previous FR products, and they start publishing Ed's Realms as fast as he can turn legible copy over to them.
-Which would be one of the worst things that could happen to it. Since it's inception on the mass market, it's been "owned" by TSR/WotC, and the world has grown intertwined with D&D. Removed from WotC, and D&D, the setting would be very nearly irrevocably changed. Talking about giant retcons, that'd be the biggest one of all. Take for example, Beholders. WotC owns the rights to Beholders as we understand them. If the Forgotten Realms were not a licensed WotC product, Forgotten Realms products would not legally be able to use Beholders as we understand them. They'd have to be replaced with creatures that were similar, but could not be confused with Beholders, as not to violate copyright laws and trigger legal problems and such between WotC and whatever company licensed the Forgotten Realms to make any new products mass marketed (Ed Greenwood can't do that by himself). The same goes for various aspects of the setting, which were influenced by non-public domain information (Items, Spells, Planes, etc.). Novels would be affected as well- I don't know the details, but Mr. de Bie's (using him as an example, since most people generally have a very favorable opinion of his books) contract might say that he can't write books for other companies outside of WotC. Or, he might be too busy, with other contracted projects.
-People like to look at the romanticized version of things, where everything works out and things become happily ever after, but reality is reality.
All true... except that I'm not talking about WotC losing the rights to the Realms, I'm just talking about them re-adopting Ed's original Realms and moving forward with them... but yes, you're right, it's just a reboot (not a retcon, however)... and we're not getting a reboot, from the sounds of what has come down from WotC. But then, whatever we do get should be an improvement over the 4e Realms in any case... but I shouldn't actually be open with that opinion, because things can always get worse...
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
I think LK is right about the designers having needed to use a new term instead of redefining "eladrin"... but then, one of the missions of the 4E Realms was to invalidate the old lore, even if it's not spun that way...
-Can't agree with the wording. Most information hasn't been invalidated, it's just been marginalized (if you want it to be) by virtue of the setting having been moved 102 years into the future of where the 3e timeline ended.
I'll grant you that much... but the fact that any lore at all was invalidated means that the changes inflicted by the Spellplague were too significant. Anyway, before finding your reply, I'd just spent so long with CK Search and Google Advanced Search trying to find a particular post that I no longer remember why I wanted to find it... that seems to be the way things go, of late... |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3773 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 05:27:23
|
| -Your missing post has been retconned to have never existed. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 03 Mar 2012 05:27:38 |
|
|
|
Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 06:03:35
|
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Your missing post has been retconned to have never existed.
Actually, it hasn't, because I did find it... so I've just undone your retcon, painlessly and instantly. Hah! |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 03 Mar 2012 06:04:44 |
|
|
|
TBeholder
Great Reader
2530 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 12:33:18
|
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-No, I get that. That's why I used a credit card analogy: When you use one card to pay off another card (using a retcon to remove past retcons), the debt is gone on that one card (the first retcon), but the "baggage" still exists (the implications and continuity problems that resulted in the first retcon randomly being removed without explanation), in the form of debt on your new card.
...and if this isn't done the problem isn't very likely to just somehow go away on its own either. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Evereska
