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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1873 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 01:33:52
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Do the reverent scribes of these Halls have any information about the migratory patterns of whales, where each species is most likely to be found and where whaling is done? Both where on the oceans the whaling ships find the great mammals and where their home harbours are*.
I'd like to know if there are any whaling communities on the Sea of Fallen Stars, in particular, but I'm also interested in information about the wider and vaster outer oceans.
How are whales hunted in the Realms? With longboats and harpoons, more than likely, but given the great rewards and the dangers, it is not impossible that magic is employed by some whalers.
Of course, whales, at least some of them, being sentient beings in the Realms would complicate matters somewhat. This would mean that they were much harder to hunt than in our world, where they are not all that intelligent. It also means that they could potentially ally with other races against whalers.
I think I asked Ed something about it once, but I have not the technology or aptitute to find his answer, if indeed he had found time to give one. A more savvy scribe could perhaps yield up a rich haul in his copious notes.
Any references from game supplements or novels would also be richly appreciated.
Finally, informed speculation working from canon sources is welcome.
*In our world, these could be seperated by thousands of miles.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 02:04:49
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Speculation is about all we can offer, since it's not really a subject that's dealt with to any specific degree in the Realmslore.
There are indeed specific breeds of whales in the oceans/seas of the Realms. Sea of Fallen Stars notes at least nine different types:- sperm, cold-water horned [narwhal], beaked, killer whale, humpbacks, snow whale, sapphire whale, night whale, and pilot whale. The tome also offers some tidbits on their individual behaviours and the places they're most likely to be found. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1873 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 02:21:24
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Here's what I found from Ed's pen:
quote:
This time Ed tackles two queries from Blackwill: “Greeting madame THO and sir Ed, I am a member of a community (ALFA) dedicated to recreating your realms within Neverwinter Nights (2) and sometimes we have strange and funny questions which add flavor to the world we've created. Here goes. Is there any whale catching within the realms? Are there specific types of whale?
What is your personal favorite region in the realms, and why?”
Ed replies:
Yes, indeed, there’s whaling in the Realms (in the western and southern seas that bound Faerûn, almost never in the Sea of Fallen Stars). These days, it’s practiced by Chultans, by pirates in the Nelanther when food is slim or they need to waterproof their hulls, by a handful of Korinna Ffolk and Tashalan seacaptains, and especially by the Northmen.
(I’m distinguishing here between seeking whales at sea to slay them, and fighting off sea creatures that attack ships; many warm shallow waters are plagued by tentacled things that snatch sailors off decks at night, and even drag down or tear apart smaller vessels.)
Here are the main species of whales hunted by whalers:
• The Araun
This huge species is the largest of known Faerûnian whales (many are more than two hundred feet long), and in shape resembles a gigantic cucumber or Zeppelin. It usually drifts slowly through the sea, mouth open wide, scooping up plankton and small fish alike—but it can charge at astonishing speeds to ram and sink ships, if aroused, or [males only] to ‘head-butt’ other araun to establish dominance over a bay or a specific female during spring mating times. Araun females can carry fertilized eggs and fetal whales within themselves for years, giving birth only when conditions are ideal (clean waters, abundant food, lack of bad weather or predators, warm spring or summer conditions). Araun have jet black skin, underlaid by a thick white layer of edible blubber, with huge amounts of quite pleasant, “roast beef”-like meat underneath, that keeps well if kept submerged in salt water or sealed away from air in a barrel that’s been smeared with blubber (araun blubber has a smell like fresh cut grass, and rapidly forms a “skin” like varnish when exposed to air, so it’s doesn’t stay sticky to the touch, but water softens this skin on contact; the blubber can be used for frying, boiled down into a cooking oil or fragrant lamp oil if combined with the right herbs (both for smell and taste, and to alter it so it won’t congeal back into blubber). Araun organs are also edible, the liver and heart being incredibly rich and a prized ingredient in some recipes for beneficial potions; a dead araun can feed a village for months.
• The Daerasluke
This fast, agile, whale likes to play (leaping clear of the water, chasing each other around ships, islands, and undersea obstacles) in pairs or small groups. Daerasluke are slender, 50 to 70 feet long when full-grown, have large front fins and heads like very large flat arrowheads, and are sandy-hued. Under their hides is a thin layer of spongy yellow skin that leaks a yellow oil that can be burned as lamp oil just “as is” (so stabbing a beached or dead daerasluke causes an outflow of oil that barrels and lamps can be filled from). Under this is white, fibrous, “whitefish”-like flesh that’s very oily, but edible; it can be squeezed to “drive out” the oil and the less-oily flesh then eaten (it “fries itself” when cooked), or it can be cooked down or boiled down to separate out a lot more oil if the flesh isn’t wanted for eating. Daerasluke are plentiful, and females usually give birth to six or seven frisky young at once; they may produce two such families in a season if conditions are favourable.
• The Karrask
This is an armored-headed, fearsome-looking monster of many seafarers’ tales, the whale that “likes to fight,” ramming ships, shearing off oars, and even leaping out of the water to land on and swamp small boats. Karrask have large, glistening black-and-gold “false eyes,” but actually see out of many tiny orbs studded here and there in the fissures between their armor plates. A karrask has a head like a giant horseshoe crab (except that where a crab has an unbroken plate as its “shoe” snout, a karrask has the same shape made up of many overlapping plates), and an adult is usually around 80 feet long, with some old warriors reaching 120 feet or more. Karrasks are loners, meeting in shoals and deserted islets far out to sea to mate, with only the males “cruising the coasts” (where they’ll eat anything organic, including sailors fallen overboard). Karrask yield almost no oil, but have thick white muscles under their skins (feet thick) that’s said to resemble but surpass the finest white pork in flavour. A single slain karrask can feed a village very well for almost a month, or make a merchant’s fortune if the meat (white flesh that hangs together very well, and is often cut into blocks about the size of a handkeg, by men wielding double-handled saws and holding the meat in “coffers” made of boards while they work on it) is brought fresh to a port market.
• The Browntail
The most common sort of whale, found in large pods swimming slowly around harbours and along coasts, “grazing” on weed (and the algae that bloom on sewage). Small (most adults are between 30 and 40 feet long), placid, and bony, resembling large trout in shape. Their skins are mottled light and dark brown, and white on the underside, with the tails being darker, unmottled brown. Browntails are easily caught, even by whalers working harpoons and nets from ashore, and yield much edible but oily beige-hued flesh that despite their diet, doesn’t taste bad. It is, however, heavy on the stomach and an acquired taste. Browntail oil is gained by boiling the hide, and yields a fitful, flickering, brownish light when used in lamps; its horrible taste bars it from cooking use (except by orcs and goblins, most of whom drink the raw oil avidly). It is, however, ideal for “waterproofing” canvas (it makes the cloth resist being waterlogged, protects it from rotting, growing molds or breaking down in the sun), and when mixed with several other (secret) ingredients, works as a very effective sealant on leaky wooden hulls, and so is much prized by pirates, who often come into harbours to hunt whales more than raid shipping.
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1873 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 02:23:45
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quote:
To this from createvmind: “Hello all, What beings prevent those who hunt sea creatures from bringing about the extinction of the whales and such? Is it Umberlee herself or sea-druids of various pantheons or both?”
Ed replies:
GoCeraf has it exactly right. The current numbers of whalers and “reach” of their technology is very far from threatening extinction. Simply put: as things presently stand, they CAN’T overfish any stocks (that and pollution/poisoning/habitat destruction are the key causes of rapid population decline, and in the Realms such rapid declines just aren’t happening; moderate population declines can be offset by increased breeding, keeping the numbers of whales and all other edible aquatic life more or less stable (with the gauge far over in the “plentiful” range).
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37013 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 04:22:31
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| I'd imagine that whaling in the Realms is also complicated by those in or around the sea, or those with a dedicated interest in it. Sahaugin might happily steal a kill or two, for example. Seawolves may hunt the whalers, not out of any love for whales, but because they can. Selkies and merfolk may try to keep their aquatic allies from being slaughtered, etc. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 04:25:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Seawolves may hunt the whalers, not out of any love for whales, but because they can. Selkies and merfolk may try to keep their aquatic allies from being slaughtered, etc.
That's my thinking as well.
In terms of protecting sea-life from the depredations of surface-dwellers, I'd imagine more than a few goodly-aligned underwater races would either seek to challenge the whaling rights of surface communities, or enlist the aid of rangers and/or druids upon the surface to hamper whaling efforts. |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 10:48:07
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
enlist the aid of rangers and/or druids upon the surface to hamper whaling efforts.
Why would rangers and druids step in to stop whaling? Are you saying that whales are special compared to other sources of meat consumed in Faerun (like deer for instance), so the rangers and druids have the divine right/backing to do so? If not I can't see why any ranger or druid would stop people feeding themselves as long as they are not over exploiting any resources that are there?
Just wondering
Cheers
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
Edited by - crazedventurers on 07 Feb 2012 10:49:10 |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 11:21:49
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i'm sleepy, so i apologize if this makes less sense in words than it does in my head, but i can see the involvement of druids who are inclined to... micromanage might be the right word. corollary: druids often object to heavy logging... not because there's any real danger of losing every last tree in the world, but because it by definition harms the forest when city-dwellers extend their grubby reach into it. any environment is injured when it's intruded upon. so it's not a big deal, really, if some people want to eat fish, and get in their little boats to go out on the water and catch some fish for themselves or their families. but whaling goes beyond feeding your family. even if there are plenty of whales in the sea, damage is done when land-dwellers intrude upon the sea and harvest its bounty not simply for their own use but to sell and profit from, heedless of the cost to other life. at least, that would be my pitch, if i wanted to play a druid who had a bone to pick with large-scale fishing operations.
there is perhaps an argument to be made for curbing whaling because whales are more intelligent than the average trout, but i don't think druids would like the distinction that intelligence makes a creature more worthy of life. using that logic, many humans, elves, and other races should be culled for their jaw-dropping lack of intelligence. (Netheril, Ascalhorn, and so many other examples)
but overall, the big-picture druids might not have much of an issue with it as long as the whale populations are not being depleted in any particular area... and perhaps as long as the landlubbers aren't deliberately (and by definition needlessly) cruel about their work. it might depend a lot on where the individual druid (or circle) is perched on the fence looking down at the issue.
just my two coppers. |
Edited by - xaeyruudh on 07 Feb 2012 11:26:04 |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 13:48:56
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quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
corollary: druids often object to heavy logging... not because there's any real danger of losing every last tree in the world, but because it by definition harms the forest when city-dwellers extend their grubby reach into it.
Complete deforestation I would agree with, but logging timber for fuel and building materials on a manageable scale does not harm the forest.
If you pollard a tree it encourages new growth, if you successfuly manage a coppice system of woodland you extend the habitat for certain species of animals as well as providing wood for fuel, fence posts and basket weaving etc for humans/demi-humans in that area.
When a tree falls down it lets lights into the area that is shaded out, allowing a larger variety of plants to grow in that area - how is this bad?
And going back to the whale, shouldn't the druids be stepping in to stop them 'devastating' the krill population by feeding on millions of them at a time? How about seal populations being ravaged by orca's? I can't see the difference between a fishing community killing a whale and sharing it between them, and a pod of whales hunting krill and sharing the bounty?
We need to think Realms here with its technology level, not 21st century technology.
Just my thoughts
Cheers
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 14:47:13
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quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
enlist the aid of rangers and/or druids upon the surface to hamper whaling efforts.
Why would rangers and druids step in to stop whaling? Are you saying that whales are special compared to other sources of meat consumed in Faerun (like deer for instance), so the rangers and druids have the divine right/backing to do so? If not I can't see why any ranger or druid would stop people feeding themselves as long as they are not over exploiting any resources that are there?
Just wondering
Cheers
Damian
I'm actually recalling a tidbit I once read in Sea of Fallen Stars. Something about the clerics and druids of Eldath "patrolling" the entirety of Serôs in order to maintain the life cycle of the sea and the aquatic life therein. They apparently seek out any imbalances and attempt to return them to what the balance of life should be like beneath the waves.
Since whales often form a very significant part of the underwater life cycle and food chain, I would imagine any significant number of whales being killed, would subsequently disturb that cycle of life, and force the druids of Eldath into action.
Involving rangers is really just speculation. I'd imagine rangers of Eldath might be directed to find and neutralise the surface operations of those whaling concerns that are responsible for the disruption of the cycle of life in Serôs. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2530 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 16:25:39
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quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
corollary: druids often object to heavy logging... not because there's any real danger of losing every last tree in the world, but because it by definition harms the forest when city-dwellers extend their grubby reach into it.
It's often the sort of druids corresponding to "radar paladins".  Elves frequently do, but usually because they tend to be territorial and disturbed by any changes. Smart elves tend to steer and limit rather than to block...
quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
Complete deforestation I would agree with, but logging timber for fuel and building materials on a manageable scale does not harm the forest.
"...corollary: a druid royally tells off a golden dragon". 
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I'm actually recalling a tidbit I once read in Sea of Fallen Stars. Something about the clerics and druids of Eldath "patrolling" the entirety of Serôs in order to maintain the life cycle of the sea and the aquatic life therein. They apparently seek out any imbalances and attempt to return them to what the balance of life should be like beneath the waves.
Well, yeah - Serôs is an inner sea, and with a lot of sahuagin at that. Gotta keep an eye on the less stable parts even at better times than right after the war with Iakhovas. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1873 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 17:01:04
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quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
Complete deforestation I would agree with, but logging timber for fuel and building materials on a manageable scale does not harm the forest.
This is true.
However, the majority opinion among druids, certainly among the Emerald Enclave, does not appear to allow for any logging. I would not find it inconsistent if they were wholly against whaling, as well.
Druids in the Realms are not conservationists who see sense in sustainable development of natural resources. A large segment of them, at least, and those who control their most powerful organisation, the god-backed Emerald Enclave, appear to have some mystical conception of Nature as an entity that does not include humanity at its current technology level and resent any human attempt to live at more that subsidence level.
I have no doubt that the Emerald Enclave would oppose any whaling by humans on principle and would be willing to enforce this edict by violence. In fact, I think that this is an important reason for why whaling is little known on the Sea of Fallen Stars. The whales, their undersea allies and the powerful druid enclave are a combination of enemies few sea-captains can afford. |
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Wolfhound75
Learned Scribe
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 18:37:11
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Just my random two Zhents for the day:
This is all opinion:
Most druids tend to protect their area fiercely but due to their somewhat isolationist nature may not be as well-informed about large-scale operations along what could be considered the entire coastline based upon Ed's response.
What I'd like to speculate on is the aquatic/amphibian species that may inhabit the areas where whaling takes place. While I think it unlikely that 'land-lubber' druids would take an active hand in preventing the ravaging of the aquatic world, I find it very likely that certain aquatic/amphibian species may produce druids which would be ideally suited to that endeavor.
In other words, don't miss the big picture. A druid glade could be a large kelp bed or coral reef just as easily as a primordial forest or mountain medow. It all depends upon what species takes up the cause of Nature.
Good Hunting! |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 00:36:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Druids in the Realms are not conservationists who see sense in sustainable development of natural resources. A large segment of them, at least, and those who control their most powerful organisation, the god-backed Emerald Enclave, appear to have some mystical conception of Nature as an entity that does not include humanity at its current technology level and resent any human attempt to live at more that subsidence level.
I feel that this representation of Emerald Enclave Druids by the game designers who put them into the Realms is a very modern 20th/21st century viewpoint on what radical druids should be doing to protect the envirnoment from humans (Greenpeace was what I immediately thought when I first read about them?). The assumption is that if you leave nature alone it will sort itself out and everything will be fine and healthy, however if you do leave a woodland to do its own thing, the dominant species outgrow all others and you (probably) end up with less diversity than you get by managing it.
So by non management the Enclave are leaving nature to resolve itself with the survival of the fittest mantra in terms of what plants/animals survive and thrive, and as humans/demi-humans are animals they should be allowed an equal chance to thrive/survive from a very strict fundamental ideological viewpoint surely?
I really do think that depicting druids in this way is a modern mindset looking at how modern humans are harvesting natural resources from our planet and that the designers are not thinking 'Realms' in terms of technology, population and resource management. As you can probably guess I am not a fan of the Emerald Enclave or the oft played /oft described function of druids who stop anyone chopping a tree down because 'that person is harming nature'.
I best shut up now as I am sure no one wants to hear me ranting anymore  
Cheers
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 00:49:24
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I'm actually recalling a tidbit I once read in Sea of Fallen Stars. Something about the clerics and druids of Eldath "patrolling" the entirety of Serôs in order to maintain the life cycle of the sea and the aquatic life therein. They apparently seek out any imbalances and attempt to return them to what the balance of life should be like beneath the waves.
So that would be artificially managing something to get a result you want, which probably means increasing diversity? hmmm sounds like coppicing woodland is a good thing then!
The thing is if you manage something 'out' (wolf) of an ecosystem that is 'causing' an imbalance you are affecting its ability to thrive and letting something else (Deer) thrive instead. So when the deer have no predators of worth to keep their numbers in check and are devastating the plant saplings in the forest by eating all the juicy new shoots, do you manage the wolfs back into the ecosystem, or decide to bring in large cats instead to eat the deer hoping they wont imbalance the ecosystem like the wolves previously did? rinse and repeat to decide what happens when the cats get too numerous etc
Cheers
Damian
who likes thinking about these things and infuriates his players when they take out a big predator in an area and they see the consequences of their actions years later . Its probably best not to mention the dozen or so deepspawn under the Hullack that are no longer in stasis and are chucking out dozens of stags a day into the forest. |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 01:10:13
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quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
And going back to the whale, shouldn't the druids be stepping in to stop them 'devastating' the krill population by feeding on millions of them at a time? How about seal populations being ravaged by orca's? I can't see the difference between a fishing community killing a whale and sharing it between them, and a pod of whales hunting krill and sharing the bounty?
We're already told why this isn't the case. It's part of the natural cycle of life beneath the waves, as I mentioned earlier. It's when outside influences, like significant numbers of surface whalers indiscriminately removing a valued portion of the cycle, that it becomes the concern of druids, like those that serve Eldath.
quote:
We need to think Realms here with its technology level, not 21st century technology.
I don't see how thinking about the cycle of life is an aspect of the 20th/21st century. The cycle of life is a long acknowledged phenomenon in both science and philosophy, ranging back hundreds of years. I would imagine it has been much the same among Realms "science" and "natural philosophy" as well. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 01:14:02
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quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I'm actually recalling a tidbit I once read in Sea of Fallen Stars. Something about the clerics and druids of Eldath "patrolling" the entirety of Serôs in order to maintain the life cycle of the sea and the aquatic life therein. They apparently seek out any imbalances and attempt to return them to what the balance of life should be like beneath the waves.
So that would be artificially managing something to get a result you want, which probably means increasing diversity? hmmm sounds like coppicing woodland is a good thing then!
How is it artificially managing something? Human whalers aren't part of the natural cycle of life beneath the waves. They're an intrusion... causing imbalance. Druids restore balance. It's the core precept of their philosophy. Removing human whalers restores the balance of the cycle of life in Serôs. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37013 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 03:30:21
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I'm actually recalling a tidbit I once read in Sea of Fallen Stars. Something about the clerics and druids of Eldath "patrolling" the entirety of Serôs in order to maintain the life cycle of the sea and the aquatic life therein. They apparently seek out any imbalances and attempt to return them to what the balance of life should be like beneath the waves.
So that would be artificially managing something to get a result you want, which probably means increasing diversity? hmmm sounds like coppicing woodland is a good thing then!
How is it artificially managing something? Human whalers aren't part of the natural cycle of life beneath the waves. They're an intrusion... causing imbalance. Druids restore balance. It's the core precept of their philosophy. Removing human whalers restores the balance of the cycle of life in Serôs.
Also, the Realms has something else the real world doesn't: deities of nature that can directly say "this is the way to restore/maintain balance". Hell of a difference when you give Mother Nature a voice of her own. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2530 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 05:43:29
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quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
I feel that this representation of Emerald Enclave Druids by the game designers who put them into the Realms is a very modern 20th/21st century viewpoint on what radical druids should be doing to protect the envirnoment from humans (Greenpeace was what I immediately thought when I first read about them?).
To be fair, it's possible that the sort of warlike "green peas" who learned the word "ecology" but don't have a slightest ideas of what a differential equation is were one of the inspirations for the class to begin with. I just doubt this makes a lot of sense in any setting aimed more to be coherent than "for lulz" - as well as equally old "...and now give them more fire spells!" gag (this one in part comes from mixing the whole idea with Celtic druids in the first place).
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Druids in the Realms are not conservationists who see sense in sustainable development of natural resources. A large segment of them, at least, and those who control their most powerful organisation, the god-backed Emerald Enclave, appear to have some mystical conception of Nature as an entity that does not include humanity at its current technology level and resent any human attempt to live at more that subsidence level.
Well, yeah, but in the Realms this notion means much the same as in our world. I already mentioned elves, right?
And druids do have a clear idea of what they're talking about. IIRC even that grumpy guy who thought High Moor is the result of logging mentioned that things as insanely out of place as a gate to the plane of Fire, while immediately cause great disruption, after a few centuries will become a part of natural conditions.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
We're already told why this isn't the case. It's part of the natural cycle of life beneath the waves, as I mentioned earlier. It's when outside influences, like significant numbers of surface whalers indiscriminately removing a valued portion of the cycle, that it becomes the concern of druids, like those that serve Eldath.
And what, out of sight (due to total internal reflection, in this case) - out of mind?  How big do you think the whole basin is (for Seros, because for oceans it's pretty much the rest of Toril)?
It's one thing in Seros - there most whales are either sentients allied with other folk or pack animals.
It's likely to be a quite different deal in oceans: refuse from people on the coast feeds scavengers anyway, so when they're at it, they may well limit the populations of whatever moves there, especially more troublesome and mobile critters, like that karrask above.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Also, the Realms has something else the real world doesn't: deities of nature that can directly say "this is the way to restore/maintain balance". Hell of a difference when you give Mother Nature a voice of her own.
Half a dozen or so voices with at least different priorities. I won't bet a lot on this factor, given that even gods more interested in mortal affairs tend to let their churches find their own ways and wander dangerously far until someone's about to break something or they have a project that needs more than one branch of the organization (if any).
It's exactly like with paladins. They have the same general idea, but with their own interpretations and sub-specializations, individuals fill the whole range from visionaries who understand their gods as far as mortals can to raving lunatics. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1873 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 06:37:59
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quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
I feel that this representation of Emerald Enclave Druids by the game designers who put them into the Realms is a very modern 20th/21st century viewpoint on what radical druids should be doing to protect the envirnoment from humans (Greenpeace was what I immediately thought when I first read about them?). The assumption is that if you leave nature alone it will sort itself out and everything will be fine and healthy, however if you do leave a woodland to do its own thing, the dominant species outgrow all others and you (probably) end up with less diversity than you get by managing it.
So by non management the Enclave are leaving nature to resolve itself with the survival of the fittest mantra in terms of what plants/animals survive and thrive, and as humans/demi-humans are animals they should be allowed an equal chance to thrive/survive from a very strict fundamental ideological viewpoint surely?
I really do think that depicting druids in this way is a modern mindset looking at how modern humans are harvesting natural resources from our planet and that the designers are not thinking 'Realms' in terms of technology, population and resource management. As you can probably guess I am not a fan of the Emerald Enclave or the oft played /oft described function of druids who stop anyone chopping a tree down because 'that person is harming nature'.
While the tenets of the Emerald Enclave are abhorrent to me in real life*, I don't object to the presentation of the organisation in the Realms.
First of all, in a fantasy setting, the Emerald Enclave could be right.
In the real world, humans are animals and the idea that humans are capable of doing anything 'against nature' reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of what nature means. A parking lot is precisely as natural as a rain forest. It doesn't make sense to talk about protecting nature or destroying it, as it is simply a matter of choosing how we want to develop our surroundings.
However, it may well be that in the Realms, humans are not animals. It certainly seems that in the dogma of Silvanus and his fellow gods, humans who live in cities are generally not seen as part of 'nature'. In this case, we have a source of conflict that is not between good and evil, but between those who want to control nature and those who want to worship it as something mystical.
Second, relating this specifically to the set-up in the Vilhon Reach, it offers the very interesting possibility of covert action and even warfare between two or more factions, none of whom is distinguished by simplistic tages like 'good' or 'evil'.
Worshippers of Waukeen, for example, are fairly easy to demonise for average people of 21st century sensibilities. The idea that a purely financial motivation is profoundly immoral is deeply seated in the cultural consciousness today. Rich people are bad people in popular culture, particularly when they want to grow richer.
On the other hand, Waukeen's dogma leads logically to sustainable development of resources, natural or otherwise, and provides a means to resolve conflicts without violence or coercion. Counter-intuitively, but demonstratably, when people strive to get richer by means of trading with their fellow men, it leads to everyone being better off.
The Emerald Enclave, as presented in the Scions of Arrabar trilogy, can be anything from a trusted ally to a fierce foe of adventuring parties of any alignment. The same goes for the Church of Waukeen and various merchant families.
And the best thing is that force of arms is probably the worst method of resolving such conflicts. The end of the Scions of Arrabar trilogy features a diplomatic triuumph whereby a faction within the Emerald Enclave cautiously commits to the start of a relationship that might lead to them embracing sustainable development of 'nature', in peaceful mutual coexistence with urban humans.
It is a victory for Waukeen's dogma, with everyone freely consenting to a solution which serves to enrich them all. But with the leadership of the Emerald Enclave firmly composed of die-hard fanatics, it will not end the conflict, which means that opportunities for nuanced and adult adventuring still exist in the Vilhon Reach.
*Because they are logically inconsistent and ethically indefensible. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1873 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 09:14:29
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According to the Word of Ed, whaling within the Sea of Fallen Stars is not prevalent.
Before I read that, I had established that a powerful merchant in Telflamm had made his fortune by whaling. Seeing as it would be rather difficult for ships with a home port in Telflamm to sail to the Great Sea, I suppose this means that he would have had done to his whaling on the Sea of Fallen Stars.
While pilot whales are probably hunted for food in coastal communities, it is not the sort of thing to build a fortune on. So I guess he'd have had to hunt something with valuable whale fat and preferably ambergris. This means the sperm whale, which also has the valuable spermaceti. Truly a swimming treasure trove.
Where in the Sea of Fallen Stars would it be plausible to hunt sperm whales? In our world, they were valuable enough for New Englanders to sail to the extreme ends of the South Pacific, over half the world, so the comparatively tiny distances in the Sea of Fallen Stars are no obstacle. It would be economical to sail anywhere that the odds were good of finding sperm whales.
I suppose that the open ocean from the Easting Reach south to the Dragonjaw Mountains is as good as place as any to assume as being somewhere sperm whales are frequently found.
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 10:40:02
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
How is it artificially managing something? Human whalers aren't part of the natural cycle of life beneath the waves. They're an intrusion... causing imbalance. Druids restore balance. It's the core precept of their philosophy. Removing human whalers restores the balance of the cycle of life in Serôs.
I think we will agree to disagree on this Sage, I see no difference between a whale (an air breathing mammal) going hunting in the sea and eating lots and lots of krill to feed and sustain itself and a ship with humans on it (air breathing mammals) going hunting in the sea to catch a whale to feed and sustain themselves and their families. I am sure the whale doesn't want to get speared anymore than the krill want to get chomped, however both humans and whales are predators and predators feed on other animals in the ongoing cycle of life and death and what could be more balanced than that?
Let me be clear here, I am talking about 'sustainable' hunting by humans of other beasts, not wholesale slaughtering and destroying a part of an ecosystem for 'quick results/greed/lack of understanding of what we are doing etc'.
Cheers
Damian
EDIT: let me ask this: what can folks who are beached and set up home on Alphar Isle in the Sea of Fallen Stars supposed to eat? How do they feed themselves except by hunting in the sea? They could of course cut down the trees and grow wheat and leeks and turnips in the fields they have created, but then you would have less trees and therefore less habitat for insects etc.
Also are the elves of Seros vegetarian? I don't have the SoFS book so don't know if their ecology is mentioned in detail.
Anyhoo I would suspect that the Church of Mystra might be as concerned by whaling as the druids are. Am sure they don't want some of their previous Magisters/Chosen being served up for lunch! |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
Edited by - crazedventurers on 08 Feb 2012 10:55:46 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1873 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 11:03:41
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quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
Also are the elves of Seros vegetarian? I don't have the SoFS book so don't know if their ecology is mentioned in detail.
While not specifically vegetarian, most of the Seros races view the idea of consuming the flesh of whales with horror. Whales* are a sentient species, at least in the Inner Sea, and generally treated with a sort of reverence by the other undersea races. Excepting the sahuagin and a few of the more ferocious ones, who happily eat pretty much any meat.
*At least humpbacks, it is not specified what, if any, the intelligence of the other whale species are. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 15:19:09
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quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
I think we will agree to disagree on this Sage, ...
Well, just to place any potential misunderstandings aside, I'm not actually disagreeing with you. I'm just saying that the canon already provides us with reasons for why. But, as always, Realmslore lore is always open to personal interpretation.
quote:
I see no difference between a whale (an air breathing mammal) going hunting in the sea and eating lots and lots of krill to feed and sustain itself and a ship with humans on it (air breathing mammals) going hunting in the sea to catch a whale to feed and sustain themselves and their families.
Only one or two whales, and I'd be inclined to agree. But when we start getting into killing whales in numbers large enough to directly affect the cycle of life in Serôs, then I'd expect that cycle to be as negatively impacted as what we've seen with overwhaling on our own world.
quote:
Let me be clear here, I am talking about 'sustainable' hunting by humans of other beasts, not wholesale slaughtering and destroying a part of an ecosystem for 'quick results/greed/lack of understanding of what we are doing etc'.
Ah. See, as I said, such wholesale slaughtering would negatively impact upon the Serôsian ecosystem. So I think we're generally on the same path. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37013 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 17:27:19
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quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
How is it artificially managing something? Human whalers aren't part of the natural cycle of life beneath the waves. They're an intrusion... causing imbalance. Druids restore balance. It's the core precept of their philosophy. Removing human whalers restores the balance of the cycle of life in Serôs.
I think we will agree to disagree on this Sage, I see no difference between a whale (an air breathing mammal) going hunting in the sea and eating lots and lots of krill to feed and sustain itself and a ship with humans on it (air breathing mammals) going hunting in the sea to catch a whale to feed and sustain themselves and their families. I am sure the whale doesn't want to get speared anymore than the krill want to get chomped, however both humans and whales are predators and predators feed on other animals in the ongoing cycle of life and death and what could be more balanced than that?
I'd say there's a couple of differences... One is that all of the whales in the world, working together, prolly wouldn't be able to dent the supply of krill. Another is that krill is unintelligent. Neither of these things apply to whales. |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1607 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 18:28:01
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| I think whales are already part of the stablished balance, for millenia. Humans with ships would be a more recent addition to this formula, and maybe could disrupt this balance - IF and WHEN they overwhale. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 19:17:40
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Here something I dug up in Eds thread:
quote:
Posted - 31 Oct 2011 : 21:20:29----Hi, MalariaMoon. Off your excellent question goes to Ed, but in the meantime I can recall Ed talking about whalesong in the Sea of Swords being used for long-distance communication among whales, and for joint magical workings, including teleports of individual whales over great distances from one underwater locale to another, and for short-term shapechanges for whales that enabled them to hide/escape foes.
For more than this, we'll have to wait for Ed.
Except for one tidbit: SOME whales and certain dragons are related in some way. Again, I don't know more; Ed does.
love,
THO
Posted - 31 Oct 2011 : 21:58:34---
It's some other form of magic that most land-dwellers know nothing about.
Found something more in my notes:
According to Ed, most of the aquatic deities AND other deities treat whales with kid gloves, so to speak, because whales have long, deep memories and so can can "store" divine power/legitimacy. They are therefore mightily valuable.
However, I've never known the details of this. We'll have to see what Ed can tell us, because I'm darned sure there'll be NDAs to navigate around, re. this...
love,
THO
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I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2530 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 19:27:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'd say there's a couple of differences... One is that all of the whales in the world, working together, prolly wouldn't be able to dent the supply of krill.
Druid-wise... Yes, bigger whales as big animals on the top of food chain have to be among the least numerous and apt to recover anywhere, and thus are a less stable part of the cycle. Smaller whales - depends on their behaviour. If they're easily slaughtered by dozens at once, this may be a problem, if it's hard to get more than one at a time, whalers can only cull herds like any other predator.
On the other end of the scale is karrask as it's described above. It's more or less what wild pigs would be if they could fly and had tank-grade hide - except underwater.
If a single cat at a wrong place can be enough to wipe out species, several of these can very easily set things upside down, or at least become a component too large and random to be balanced. So druids probably won't object if numbers of such creatures were kept as low as possible without a threat of complete extinction.
Another side is that populations of critters who feed on critters feeding on e.g. sewage from port cities are obviously boosted by those who provide sewage, so closing this cycle only lessens and stabilizes the net effect. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1873 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 20:02:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
I think whales are already part of the stablished balance, for millenia. Humans with ships would be a more recent addition to this formula, and maybe could disrupt this balance - IF and WHEN they overwhale.
This is only relevant in fantasy settings, of course. In the real world, how long something has endured has little or no impact on how robust it actually is.
In reality, there is no such thing as a balance that will remain mystically undisturbed, bar the actions of evil unnatural humans. Predator species absolutely do overhunt their prey species and then their population collapses and the same absolutely does happen with overgrazing herbivores.
If nothing keeps the whale population in check, it is not only possible, but plausible that they'll overeat the krill population and cause an ecological catastrophe. A useful analogy, useful because we actually have the ability to measure most of the factors involved, is looking at a smaller area of ocean. Kelp forests are routinely overgrazed, resulting in a collapse of the fish populations around them.
The idea that animals or 'Nature' have some innate ability to preserve balance and prevent ecological catastrophes is simply false. Nature, left to its own devices, will feature ecosystems changing, collapsing and behaving in all sorts of 'imbalanced' ways. It doesn't matter to nature. When one species dies out, there are always more. Extinction isn't a tragedy for nature, it's the most natural event in the world. 99.999 ad infinitum of all species that ever lived have died out, most of them before humans ever got here.
Humans have a responsibility to use natural resources sustainably not because 'nature is meant to be in balance', but because when we manage natural environments sensibly, we are better at it than leaving them to chance. Culling species when they grow too many for our purposes and encouraging the growth of the population of others is good business sense.
After all, if we leave things alone, nobody wins. Things will continue to go extinct and occasionally go through catastrophical ecological disasters. Nothing will ever remain the same forever, or even for very long. Change is the only natural law. The only difference is that if we try to 'let Nature take its course' we'll have no ability to control how things change. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 01:24:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
I think whales are already part of the stablished balance, for millenia. Humans with ships would be a more recent addition to this formula, and maybe could disrupt this balance - IF and WHEN they overwhale.
Yeah. The overwhaling bit is key. I think that's the disconnect between what I was saying earlier, and what crazed later replied with. The occasional killing of a whale or two in Serôs is unlikely to impact all that much... especially when considering the size and scope of the underwater ecosystem.
And Ed's words, that Bakra kindly quoted above, only reinforces this. As it seems whales form part of another cycle that also lies beyond just the waters of the Inner Sea. Removing great numbers would likely negatively impact on the special relationship between deities and whales, as hinted at by Ed. So druids taking up that natural divine initiative, and seeking, on behalf of those deities, to protect each and every whale from the predations of surfacekind, isn't too much of a stretch for the Realms. |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1607 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 09:57:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
I think whales are already part of the stablished balance, for millenia. Humans with ships would be a more recent addition to this formula, and maybe could disrupt this balance - IF and WHEN they overwhale.
This is only relevant in fantasy settings, of course. In the real world, how long something has endured has little or no impact on how robust it actually is.
(...)Predator species absolutely do overhunt their prey species and then their population collapses and the same absolutely does happen with overgrazing herbivores.
If nothing keeps the whale population in check, it is not only possible, but plausible that they'll overeat the krill population and cause an ecological catastrophe. (...)
The idea that animals or 'Nature' have some innate ability to preserve balance and prevent ecological catastrophes is simply false. Nature, left to its own devices, will feature ecosystems changing, collapsing and behaving in all sorts of 'imbalanced' ways. (...)
Extinction isn't a tragedy for nature, it's the most natural event in the world. 99.999 ad infinitum of all species that ever lived have died out, most of them before humans ever got here.
(...)
It is partially true. When an environment changes, this overhunting/overgrazing occurs and many species that show up initially in that specific place will eventually die out. But after some time, there will be a balance between predators/ herbivores/ plant life (I could elaborate, but will not for matters of space and because my English is somewhat limited).
There are many "settler" species, in any environment, that only "prepare" the soil, light conditions, etc. for more permanent species that will follow. But the difference between the birth/reproduction or growth rate will stablish this balance, and predators who overhunt will eventually be killed as much as the animals they hunt, if they are specialized and their prey is gone.
Fact is, this balance is not eternal, and changes in temperature, light exposure, sometimes caused by many natural occurrences (from the fall of a meteor, the building of a dam, to the falling of a tree, in microhabitats) will disrupt this balance, and after the death of many species and the overgrowth of others, and after a period of great change, demand new conditions for a balance that is different from the original.
The point is that this disruption can come through "natural disasters", or can be the result of human action, that is usually considered "artificial". If you see the development of humankind and exploration of the environment as the natural course of things, that's another story*.
And the druids of the Realms can see it in a different way, they can even disagree about this matter; while some would want to preserve animal and plant life (and fungus, etc.) regardless of human - and humanoids - existence and influence, others would see that full resistence is a foil and that resources could be explored consciently. And yes, maybe the gods could guide in one way or another, depending on the ways of the deity. I think Chauntea's druids could work differently from Silvanus', and maybe there could be factions between different groups following the same deity. Lots of roleplaying possibilities...
*Of course, this is the way I see it after studying this issue for some years. People are totally free to disagree. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Whaling in the Realms
