| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 10:31:38
|
Hi All,
again a unnerving point for me in relmas-history.
In GHOTRand also the Novel "The Siege" and "The Sorcerer" it is stated that the Phaerimm led ARMIES of Bugbears and Lizardfolk against waterdeeps relief army as well as against evereska itself.
where did they grow this army? or recruit?
Lizardfolk can ( imho ) be easily found in greater numbers, but with bugbears??
These brutes are as a race not openly know as having the numbers to form armies.
Iknow they were pretty nasty in 2e, always bringing reinforcements in a neverending loop if desired... ( good old times... ) but armies of them?
In the entry on anauroch in elminsters eclologies, it is said that the beholders under anauroch ( which were allied with the thornbacks or even dominated ) scored vast numbers of humanoid slaves, but these being almost exclusively human nomads and hobgoblins from the tribes of the desert.
looking forward to youropinions and all relevant lore that might exist.
|
|
|
Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1309 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 16:20:15
|
| I don't know why Troy used Bugbears for this either. It seemed rather random, just wanted big humanoids ground troops as fodder and orcs were overdone? I think some subterranean race (since Phaerimm came up from the underdark) like goblins would have been better used, but they aren't big enough to sound scary in an army? Hoping someone else has an answer for this, it's a good question. |
 |
|
|
Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 17:37:21
|
they would hav eneeded to breed them for centuries, and i can only imagine the food amount bugbears would need, yet their wild and chaotic nature.
let us not talk about their battle-strength, i am only interested if there are any more evidents of bugbears dwelling in these regions in larger numbers during past times.
My first thought was Hlundadim, but even there Bugbears were stated a minor race with not many individuals belonging to the race. |
|
|
|
Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 17:46:48
|
| Is there record of these particular Phaerim controlling any Deepspawn? |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
|
|
|
Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1309 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 18:26:52
|
Don't Deepspawn toss out random monsters? I guess the Phaerimm could engineer them to spew out only Bugbears.
I've never read anything about a large population of Bugbears in any part of the Forgotten Realms, certainly not in the Evereska/Greycloak Hills part of Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast or the Elminsters Ecologies anyway. Maybe ask Ed? |
|
|
|
Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 18:37:29
|
Deepspawn can be controlled and manipulated by magic to produce specific monsters, to the limits of the matter and life energy they consume beforehand.
Like you, I think an Ask Ed is in order.
I'm hoping the answer (assuming we get one) is that there are large bugbear colonies(?) in the Realms, we've just never been introduced to them yet.
EDIT: There's also the possibility of portal/gate use. Did the Phaerimm have access to portals that allowed them to bring in bugbears from some far off location? |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 27 Feb 2012 18:47:27 |
|
|
|
Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1607 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 19:25:24
|
In Elminster's Ecologies, the Phaerimm control beholders, ilithids, orcs, hobgoblins, asabi (desert lizardfolk) and some humans and members of other races. Well, the Return of the Archwizards trilogy give us some lore that somewhat differs from what was previously published, like the descriptions of Erlan Duirsar - not very like the one given in the 2e FR box and in Elaine Cunningham's novel Elfshadow - and of Jhingleshod - not a death knight, maybe not even an undead, in The Savage Frontier 1e accessory.
Since the trilogy books are newer, maybe it could be considered a retcon, and so it would be about the bugbear tribes. Even if bugbears are chaotic and usually don't unite in armies like hobgoblins, the Phaerimm and ilithid mind control could make them form a large force. Even if I still think it would be quite easier to gather those who are already together to control... Well, maybe they did it to have a superior strength in the area. Let's see what Ed says about it. Have you already posted the question in his scroll?
EDIT: typos |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 27 Feb 2012 19:31:04 |
|
|
|
Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 20:00:18
|
Given that we're talkign Phaerimm here, it's also quite possible that they used some sort of mass Polymorph Other spell to transform lesser creatures (orcs and goblins) into something bigger and meaner.
Methinks one orc and one goblin gets you a bugbear.
But that's all speculation and not entirely proper for this Realmslore-only shelf, so I'll stop now.  |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 01:20:58
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jakuta Khan
Hi All,
again a unnerving point for me in relmas-history.
In GHOTRand also the Novel "The Siege" and "The Sorcerer" it is stated that the Phaerimm led ARMIES of Bugbears and Lizardfolk against waterdeeps relief army as well as against evereska itself.
where did they grow this army? or recruit?
The phaerimm are a powerful magical race. One could control hundreds of those creatures without breaking a sweat. And at least on that regard, Troy stuck to established lore. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 09:12:59
|
@dennis:
Not questioning that, phaerimm could control them easily very much likely.
But what questions me is, was there evident of such larger numbers of bugbears existing either in the region or farther away which the phaerimm could have subjugated.
I am looking for lore here, which oculdbe seen as the link from past relmas-canon into the novels. |
|
|
|
Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1607 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 11:54:43
|
| Perhaps the bugbears where always there, but since they weren't united, they were not considered as a species worth of note. Otherwise, they could come from the Stonelands. The rumors section of the Anauroch section of Elminster's ecologies says that "Goblins, brigands, and bugbears from the Stonelands have recently been attacking Bedine encampments in the southeast. Rumor has it that some foul evil drives these noisome creatures from their lairs and homes and forces them into the desert." Maybe they were captured and controlled by the Phaerimm while they moved from the Stonelands to fight the Bedines, since the book also tells that "... the newcomers have no provisions and no sense of desert ways and dangers. Their only hope of survival is to raid among Bedine encampments." |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
|
|
|
Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 17:58:13
|
@barastir, this is extremely interesting, thanks for that bit of information!!
I will read it up and see if more hints canbe seen.
|
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 00:08:23
|
They could have come from anywhere. The phaerimm can teleport at will and could raise portals to move armies from one place to another. Though, if they indeed came from Anauroch, that would make sense, still. Why bother go somewhere far to get your slaves when thousands are available nearby? |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 03 Mar 2012 00:09:57 |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 02:40:40
|
My mind jumped right to Deepspawn as well; it really makes the most sense in this scenario.
Bugbears are one of the few goblinoids (along with kobolds) that prefer subterranean living, BTW. If the Pharimm were going to use any goblinoids, they make the most sense (the other choices - Orogs and Ogrillons - are half-breeds, as are Tanaruuk).
The Lizardfolk also make perfect sense - the Laerti/Asabi are indigenous to the region and were in thrall to the Beholders which were enslaved by the Phaerimm (although a city beholders enslaved by anyone is rather silly, but that has nothing to do with the topic).
I am one to find fault with everything (include Denning's novels), but this is something I really have no problem with. It makes sense, IMHO. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 16:14:29
|
@markus:
I agree here as well, deepspawn as repeatedly mentioned make most sense. Otherwise it is hardly possible to gather these numbers of them, Lizardfolk is not an issue, as I also stated.
the city of beholders - I think I mentioned before that this is more than silly, in elminsters ecologies it states that more than 1.000 beholders and their mindslaves dwell there - a hard nut for just NAY power in faerun to defeat, but enslave???? |
|
|
|
Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1607 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 11:34:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
They could have come from anywhere. The phaerimm can teleport at will and could raise portals to move armies from one place to another. Though, if they indeed came from Anauroch, that would make sense, still. Why bother go somewhere far to get your slaves when thousands are available nearby?
I think not from anywhere, really. IMHO, this army should come from inside the Sharn Wall boundaries, since they were well numbered and organized at the very beginning of the war, and I think the Phaerimm could need some time to gather and fully control the goblinoids, and for it to happen they should at least know where to find them (I don't know if the wall blocked divinations).
But the most important fact, IMO, is that I don't see the Phaerimm spending their time inside the wall doing nothing until its breaching; I see them preparing for leaving at any moment, and raising whatever forces they could inside the desert through the centuries. It doesn't exclude the possibility of using Deepspawn or other resources - they would use everything they could get -, but I think the raising of the army's forces was a long, well-planned effort.
EDIT: Correcting myself, maybe they could form an army from out of nowhere, since they are very magic-powerful, but using this power with time they would be even more effective. I think they would gather the army after being released only if they thought there was any risk of discovery if they raised forces before the breaching. However, considering their magical might, they could hide the forces, or keep them separated - and mind-controlled - until the very moment of marching. Besides, they still could get more goblinoids "from anywhere" and reinforce the army after the wall was breached.
|
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 05 Mar 2012 11:45:16 |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 03:36:02
|
The Sharnwall prevented the phaerimm from extending any magical influence outside. So I say that they gathered their armies right after Galaeron and Melegaunt breached the wall. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Marc
Senior Scribe
662 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 06:01:30
|
| The phaerimm controlled the mind flayers, who controlled the bugbears, simple as that. Tough there never were any bugbears in the Buried Realms as far as I know. |
. |
|
|
|
Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1607 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 12:30:36
|
I got it, I'm just saying that, if they had time and were not being watched or somehow controlled, they could get a powerful army before the breaching. Considering most mental influences can be resisted (allowing saving throws), with time at their side they would assure 100% of success and allegiance from all the available forces inside the sharnwall boundaries. And yet, they could gather as much as they could to enlarge this army after the breach.
I just don't think they would spend the time before the breaching just waiting, if there was even a slight chance of them working behind the scenes. It simply doesn't look like Phaerimm, IMHO, doing nothing for centuries, unless it is an action that puts their plots at risk.
|
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
|
|
|
_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 13:36:13
|
Yes and even if there once was only a small number of bugbears trapped within the sharnwall the phaerim would have prevented them from fighting each other or anyone else there and just would have them breed more and more until they got a big army for the day the wall is breached.
This would work with everything else trapped there too. So the mind flayers and beholders could have been aquired the same way. |
|
|
|
Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 19:01:41
|
I agree partially with you.
But It wouldbe nice to get some canon information about this. I am quite sure that there exist bits and pieces from which we can say all this to be canon or completely wrong, as always it is just a matter of finding it.
|
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 01:30:24
|
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
I just don't think they would spend the time before the breaching just waiting, if there was even a slight chance of them working behind the scenes. It simply doesn't look like Phaerimm, IMHO, doing nothing for centuries, unless it is an action that puts their plots at risk.
Melegaunt observed that the phaerimm were experimenting with new or improved spells that they used to try to break or at the very least punch a hole in the Sharnwall. So no, they were not just waiting for centuries in the wall doing nothing. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3773 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 01:58:43
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Melegaunt observed that the phaerimm were experimenting with new or improved spells that they used to try to break or at the very least punch a hole in the Sharnwall. So no, they were not just waiting for centuries in the wall doing nothing.
-That was right at the beginning of the first book in the series, right? |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8091 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 02:46:52
|
| I agree with Seravin, Troy probably needed big mean humanoids and goblins just didn't cut it. Bugbears are the goblinoid invaders of choice when orcs are unavailable ... and we can't a hoard of orcs bashing down the mythals of those poor little elves, orcs are civilized now, they're good guys. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 07 Mar 2012 02:48:09 |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 02:47:39
|
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Melegaunt observed that the phaerimm were experimenting with new or improved spells that they used to try to break or at the very least punch a hole in the Sharnwall. So no, they were not just waiting for centuries in the wall doing nothing.
-That was right at the beginning of the first book in the series, right?
Correct. I also theorized that Melegaunt specifically chose that part of the Sharnwall because most probably it's the thinnest or least stable of the wall, having received the brunt of the phaerimm's unraveling spells. And that it's likely the clash of Melegaunt's shadow magic and Galaeron's Weave-based spells would not have torn that section of the wall if it's not so thin in the first place. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 02:49:43
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I agree with Seravin, Troy probably needed big mean humanoids and goblins just didn't cut it. Bugbears are the goblinoid invaders of choice when orcs are unavailable ...
Agreed. The goblins would have been just mere annoyance to the elves, unless all of them happen to be spellcasters.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
and we can't a hoard of orcs bashing down the mythals of those poor little elves, orcs are civilized now, they're good guys.
 |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1607 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 10:44:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Melegaunt observed that the phaerimm were experimenting with new or improved spells that they used to try to break or at the very least punch a hole in the Sharnwall. So no, they were not just waiting for centuries in the wall doing nothing.
What I was trying to say was: OK, they tried to breach the wall, then what? Why wouldn't they work on an army WHILE doing that? I was talking specifically about the issue of raising an army, to leave their captivity in full force! |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
|
|
|
George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6692 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2012 : 00:20:50
|
Because the phaerimm weren't operating and living in a vacuum. There were (and are) several power groups/interests that have worked against the phaerimm for millenia. No doubt they tried to raise a gazillion armies over the centuries but their plans were thwarted time and time again. Just like the phaerimm themselves thwarted the plans of other races and groupings over the ages.
The Realms has a multitude of layers and absolutely no-one or no group operates in total isolation and without someone or something knowing or half-knowing what is going on. That's why Elminster has been the most effective Chosen in the modern Realms. He has a superlative information network and the brains to use that information to play off interests and create conflict so that no power group can get that slam-dunk to "take over the Realms!" (key music).
Knowledge is power.
-- George Krashos
|
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2012 : 04:20:27
|
The phaerimm are not team players. Who knows, those outside but relatively near the Sharnwall might be the ones who indirectly opposed those inside. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2012 : 07:51:12
|
@krashos:
I do agree with you, and that is exactly the reason why I thought there must be other bits and pieces of lore hinting on the activities of the Phaerimm scheming under Anauroch. For sure they clashed hardly with drow at some point, with Ilithids we know what happened, and elminster also stated that they controlled this city of beholders etc.
But I was looking for more information to be found specifically on the bugbears they used so amassed.
it is noted that troy eventually just threw them in, but usually every author hangs at least on some bits of canon lore when writing. |
|
|
|
Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1607 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2012 : 11:21:57
|
That's why I said previously that they had power to do it under cover, their magic might would be so good at raising armies as in hiding forces - maybe separate forces. Of course they raised armies and their plans were foiled hundreds of times, I just think that would not be a reason for them to give up, and MAYBE this bugbear, illithid and beholder army could be one of the more recent efforts in this way. Not that they would not recruit more after the release. I think it just makes sense them to be as resourceful as they can.
EDIT: I know we're discussing if the bugbears came from the Anauroch itself or from nearly everywhere. So, focusing on Jakhuta Khan's question, my answer is: probably they got the Stonelands bugbears, and any other they could find after breaching the wall. Why not getting the asabi, hobgoblins and humans available, or even other races that were around at the time, if they were really able to bring allies from anywhere? This, I don't know. Maybe some of the other available races could be more resistant to mind control. But I still think most of the army was assembled inside the sharnwall, otherwise their forces would be more varied.
PS: And I think the choice on bugbears was simply to put enemies bigger and sneakier than hobgoblins and orcs. Simple as that! As I said before, I'm not sure if there was much worry on canon sources, but I'd stick with the Stoneland bugbear force, whose destiny wasn't mentioned after Elminster's Ecologies. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 08 Mar 2012 11:33:15 |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Phearimm attack on evereska BUGBEAR ARMIES??
