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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Jun 2012 : 12:37:31
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| Look at sharns abilities, they can create hex portals out of the ethereal, I thought the magic of the sharnwall was actually some kind of spatial manipulation to mislead the phaerimm and block teleportation. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2513 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2012 : 06:36:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Phaerimm consume magic as gluttonously as laraken, except shadow magic. Yet they couldn't consume or at least weaken the Sharn Wall, which was composed of magic and not shadow magic... What sorcery did the Sharn use to erect such prison?
Methinks, you start with a wrong assumption. Phaerimm don't consume magic like laraken, disenchanter or even gauth. If they absorb spells hurled at them, this doesn't mean they can take an enchanted halberd or something and slurrrrrp it into a mundane object.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Given what that quote by Wooly says, it would appear that Sharn magic reacts to Phaerimm magic the same exact way Arcane magic reacts to shadow magic (and vice-versa).
But with Weave vs. Shadow Weave - in rare cases when effects containing raw magic (not much of these) meet, create rifts or ripples. With Phaerimm vs. Sharn - normal spells meet, reshape landscape. How it's the same?
And if it reacted the same way, Phaerimm could hurl spells throug Sharn Wall at least as often as not due to tenuous interaction.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Now we know the Phaerimm couldn't possibly be using shadow magic, so does that mean the Sharn are using Shadow magic? Or is there a third source of power?
...also, it's Sharn vs. Phaerimm only. Spells of all other Weave users aren't said to interact with either in any special way. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2012 : 11:23:33
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Phaerimm consume magic as gluttonously as laraken, except shadow magic. Yet they couldn't consume or at least weaken the Sharn Wall, which was composed of magic and not shadow magic... What sorcery did the Sharn use to erect such prison?
Methinks, you start with a wrong assumption. Phaerimm don't consume magic like laraken, disenchanter or even gauth. If they absorb spells hurled at them, this doesn't mean they can take an enchanted halberd or something and slurrrrrp it into a mundane object.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Given what that quote by Wooly says, it would appear that Sharn magic reacts to Phaerimm magic the same exact way Arcane magic reacts to shadow magic (and vice-versa).
But with Weave vs. Shadow Weave - in rare cases when effects containing raw magic (not much of these) meet, create rifts or ripples. With Phaerimm vs. Sharn - normal spells meet, reshape landscape. How it's the same?
And if it reacted the same way, Phaerimm could hurl spells throug Sharn Wall at least as often as not due to tenuous interaction.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Now we know the Phaerimm couldn't possibly be using shadow magic, so does that mean the Sharn are using Shadow magic? Or is there a third source of power?
...also, it's Sharn vs. Phaerimm only. Spells of all other Weave users aren't said to interact with either in any special way.
The two forms of Incarnim do react in that fashion, according to a supplement to Incarnium. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2012 : 17:24:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
The two forms of Incarnim do react in that fashion, according to a supplement to Incarnium.
Don't forget... any "lore" from general (core) supplements isn't automatically part of Realms lore. Realms lore is often quite divergent from core rules supplements.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36977 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2012 : 18:17:28
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I see no reason to assume that either the sharn or the phaerimm have any unique, different sort of magic that they use. I think their spellbattles had a tendency to level the landscape because that's what happens when lots of spells get tossed at once -- and keep in mind, in 2E the phaerimm could get to 30th or 40th level as wizards! Even a single phaerimm, tossing spells in anger, is going to give heart attacks to any local real estate agents.
There's no need to assume any kind of unique magery when the sheer amount of magical energy being tossed about explains things quite well. Even a tweaked off level 15 human wizard can rearrange the local landscape. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2012 : 18:26:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I see no reason to assume that either the sharn or the phaerimm have any unique, different sort of magic that they use. I think their spellbattles had a tendency to level the landscape because that's what happens when lots of spells get tossed at once -- and keep in mind, in 2E the phaerimm could get to 30th or 40th level as wizards! Even a single phaerimm, tossing spells in anger, is going to give heart attacks to any local real estate agents.
There's no need to assume any kind of unique magery when the sheer amount of magical energy being tossed about explains things quite well. Even a tweaked off level 15 human wizard can rearrange the local landscape.
Yes, but they just aren't engaged in beautification, at least as far as I know it. The information I've encountered states that's it's the two magics interacting with each other that's causing the change in landscape. Now, if you can show me, not laterially, where this can normally happen as a consequence of a simple spell duel, then I can stop considering that some other magical source is involved. And no, the argument of power along doesn't sufice, as increase in intensity doesn't necesity an alteration in the quality of magical interaction. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36977 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2012 : 18:53:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I see no reason to assume that either the sharn or the phaerimm have any unique, different sort of magic that they use. I think their spellbattles had a tendency to level the landscape because that's what happens when lots of spells get tossed at once -- and keep in mind, in 2E the phaerimm could get to 30th or 40th level as wizards! Even a single phaerimm, tossing spells in anger, is going to give heart attacks to any local real estate agents.
There's no need to assume any kind of unique magery when the sheer amount of magical energy being tossed about explains things quite well. Even a tweaked off level 15 human wizard can rearrange the local landscape.
Yes, but they just aren't engaged in beautification, at least as far as I know it. The information I've encountered states that's it's the two magics interacting with each other that's causing the change in landscape. Now, if you can show me, not laterially, where this can normally happen as a consequence of a simple spell duel, then I can stop considering that some other magical source is involved. And no, the argument of power along doesn't sufice, as increase in intensity doesn't necesity an alteration in the quality of magical interaction.
It's not the magical interaction, it's the normal effects that lightning bolts and meteor swarms and such have on the local landscape. In other words, when a lot of BOOM is being tossed about, it affects more than just the opposing spellcaster. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2012 : 19:05:38
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This isn’t collateral damage, which is what you are talking about, this is where two spells are coming together to produce alterations in the landscape. They aren’t the same thing. Sorry, I’ve already considered that and discarded it. Trust me, I’d love a simple explanation, but so far, the only simple explanations I can come up with besides the one that I’ve mentioned that remains logically consistent within the bounds of the information provided, is that it’s a natural consequence of the two spells interaction, but that in of itself is a very poor explanation, as it leaves the conclusion with a hanging negation that requires an additional premise.
And before any says magic seems to follows it’s on rules, all of Ed’s descriptions of magic indicate that’s a perfectly logical system. That’s part of the marvel of what he created in the relms, but that’s another topic altogether. So, we’ve returned to the issue at hand, coming full circle and either have it being some product of the weave, heavy magic and all, as described in the relation of Incarnim and so forth; or, we have two highly complex magical sources that require further logical explanation as to how their natural combining, cause landscape alterations.
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We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36977 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2012 : 19:56:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
This isn’t collateral damage, which is what you are talking about, this is where two spells are coming together to produce alterations in the landscape. They aren’t the same thing. Sorry, I’ve already considered that and discarded it. Trust me, I’d love a simple explanation, but so far, the only simple explanations I can come up with besides the one that I’ve mentioned that remains logically consistent within the bounds of the information provided, is that it’s a natural consequence of the two spells interaction, but that in of itself is a very poor explanation, as it leaves the conclusion with a hanging negation that requires an additional premise.
And before any says magic seems to follows it’s on rules, all of Ed’s descriptions of magic indicate that’s a perfectly logical system. That’s part of the marvel of what he created in the relms, but that’s another topic altogether. So, we’ve returned to the issue at hand, coming full circle and either have it being some product of the weave, heavy magic and all, as described in the relation of Incarnim and so forth; or, we have two highly complex magical sources that require further logical explanation as to how their natural combining, cause landscape alterations.
Where is it written that it was anything other than the clashing of opposing spells? We have no lore that indicates sharn or phaerimm have unique magic, and we do have lore indicating that BOOM + BOOM = destruction, regardless of the source of the BOOM.
There is nothing to indicate we are looking at anything more than collateral damage, so I see no reason to assume it's anything else. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2012 : 20:04:53
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| Well, they say heavy magic was used to help create the prisen, as in the Netheril: Empire of Magic set. They don't mention anything about colaterial anywhere in thechanging of the land being colaterial damage there. Not once, no where. This evening I'll find the exact section and quote it. After that you tell me. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2012 : 20:05:47
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It seems to me that you are clearly incorrect in your assessment, Markustay.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
it seems to me, Dennis, that much of what was portrayed in that series is now being down-played, if not outright contradicted by later (superseding) lore.
The rest of your reply is...interesting.  |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2012 : 20:27:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
it seems to me, Dennis, that much of what was portrayed in that series is now being down-played, if not outright contradicted by later (superseding) lore.
I'm not certain about that. However, it's clear that the proximity of the source of whatever type magic matters a lot. Mephistopheles was at a disadvantage when he appeared in Shade, for even if he had all the magic of Cania to summon, he was a in place where all shadows answer to Telamont and his archwizards. Similarly, Cale, albeit not as powerful as Telamont, could not call onto shadows when he was in Cania because, as Mephistopheles said, even the shadows in his domain answer to him alone.
In a 'neutral' ground, I'm not sure who and what would prevail... |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 19 Jun 2012 20:28:14 |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2012 : 20:33:33
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This is probably incorrect as well. Mephistopheles was not at any disadvantage due to the 'type' of magicks in use, but was bound due to his outer planar nature, by specific magicks formulated for that task.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
it seems to me, Dennis, that much of what was portrayed in that series is now being down-played, if not outright contradicted by later (superseding) lore.
I'm not certain about that. However, it's clear that the proximity of the source of whatever type magic matters a lot. Mephistopheles was at a disadvantage when he appeared in Shade, for even if he had all the magic of Cania to summon, he was a in place where all shadows answer to Telamont and his archwizards. Similarly, Cale, albeit not as powerful as Telamont, could not call onto shadows when he was in Cania because, as Mephistopheles said, even the shadows in his domain answer to him alone.
In a 'neutral' ground, I'm not sure who and what would prevail...
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2513 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2012 : 00:40:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I see no reason to assume that either the sharn or the phaerimm have any unique, different sort of magic that they use.
But we know that the same spell cast by different creatures may work differently solely due to their relations with the Weave.
Example: drow used to cast spells on surface as if in a wild magic zone. Once their touch with the Weave was fixed, they just stopped to suffer this effect, without fixing their spellbooks or anything.
After all, if creatures may differ in the degree of ability to use arcane magic, why this property must be one-dimensional?
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
The two forms of Incarnim do react in that fashion, according to a supplement to Incarnium.
YMMV, but IMO best left where it came from. 
As all other Suddenly! Universal! things that make little to no sense in the context to which they get side-glued out of nowhere (like Far Realm), for that matter.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think their spellbattles had a tendency to level the landscape because that's what happens when lots of spells get tossed at once
This was mentioned as a some sort of special case, not just as mass destruction.
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
Now, if you can show me, not laterially, where this can normally happen as a consequence of a simple spell duel, then I can stop considering that some other magical source is involved.
See, that's jumping to a random conclusion. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2012 : 02:07:38
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| Hi. I'm not Sightless, just his room mate. I know he said he was working on ideas for a magic system and stuff for a guy associated with this thread. He told me who, but I forgot. Anyhow, he's been in a car accident and will be in the hospital for some time. Drunk hit the cab he was riding in. Anyhow, he wont be posting anything for a while. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36977 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2012 : 04:45:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
Hi. I'm not Sightless, just his room mate. I know he said he was working on ideas for a magic system and stuff for a guy associated with this thread. He told me who, but I forgot. Anyhow, he's been in a car accident and will be in the hospital for some time. Drunk hit the cab he was riding in. Anyhow, he wont be posting anything for a while.
Please convey to him our wishes for a speedy recovery! |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2012 : 07:32:28
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| Please give him my best, if you should read this and speak with him. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2012 : 19:59:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
Please give him my best, if you should read this and speak with him.
Consider it done. He should be released from the hospital some time tomorrow. That's earlier than expected. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2012 : 20:11:20
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| I'm happy to hear that it is not as bad as it could have been. Tell him to lawyer up. Thank you for being a go-between, I'm sure it matters much. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 20 Jun 2012 20:12:19 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 04:05:49
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
This is probably incorrect as well. Mephistopheles was not at any disadvantage due to the 'type' of magicks in use, but was bound due to his outer planar nature, by specific magicks formulated for that task.
Perhaps. Though, if such were the case, then any accomplished shadow caster could have caged him. Yet, if you can recall, Brennus (who's accomplished enough in the art of shadow magic) could barely do it. Mephisto just brushed off his binding spell as if it was mere cobwebs.
I could be incorrect, though, since Brennus' binding spell was specifically brewed for a different, lesser fiend.
Or, maybe, it's because Brennus is not as attuned to the mythallar (and the shadows that cloak and protect the entire city of Shade) as his father is, who used said device to strengthen Mephisto's binding. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sharn Wall
