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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6689 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Aug 2012 : 09:12:39
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@ Old Man Harpell: Sounds like a plan.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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LastStand
Learned Scribe
130 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2012 : 09:27:27
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Thanks for the updates everyone!
Everything said so far seems promising to me and the fact that a few characters and Deities might reappear has tickled my interest. I wonder if the Lady of Deception and the Lord of Shadows will emerge with some elaborate scheme they've been planning all this time - I can only hope. |
"Don't. The battlegrounds that you and I have returned from alive are too different."
~ Claymore ch106 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3823 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2012 : 09:52:59
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^Same. I hadn't thought about Leira before, but I'd be glad to have her back, especially over Cyric...
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
[quote]Originally posted by George Krashos
The Realms will bring you more characters to get to know and fall in love with. It might even bring a few loved individuals back. Who it is exactly that you pine for?
-- George Krashos
(Leaves his Vestments of the Candlekeep Grognard on the hook - for the time being.)
A fair question. Since you asked...
I won't assume that I won't like any of the 'new' faces they introduce - that's very much a 'wait and see' situation.
As to who (or what) should still be around:
[...]
Agreed, even tho I'm not really longing to have the Seven Sisters back (but I wouldn't mind them making a return at all, especially Laeral). I'd add to the list the Zulkirs being restored in Thay, Mask making a comeback (Mystra and Helm are almost assured to be back, as far as I understand, and they, Mask and Lolth's children are the deities I pine for the most), and many other characters, whose fate after the SP is unknown, being developed again in novels. Also what Xaeyruudh said about the lost lands totally makes sense (even tho I'm not much into them). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 18 Aug 2012 10:18:09 |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
498 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2012 : 10:48:05
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I'll agree with Irennan about Thay and Mask. Thay is a genuine Realms-specific dash of spice (in its old form). And while I am not overly concerned with Mask, his followers were not just your run of the mill "I lurkz in shadowz and steelz yer stufz" sort of brigand - they had class.
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Ignoring for a moment the question of whether Returned Abeir was a good idea in general, covering up existing realms with it was... well, polite words fail me. You have entire continents that you haven't touched. Why didn't Returned Abeir go there? I mean exclusively there. That would have presented a perfect opportunity to open up the new continents and create more lore. Instead, you opted to erase existing lore. Full reverse. I can be fine with Toril being copy-pasted or whatever it was that happened. I can even be fine with it being glommed back together... largely because we have no lore regarding Abeir for the intervening millennia, so glomming them back together doesn't destroy Abeiran lore. What I cannot be fine with --and I really do think I have a legitimate case-- is dropping a planet on the Realms.
There's no excuse for a planned unglomming failing to fully restore Mulhorand and Maztica and everywhere else to their proper places.
Question for you, xaey: I noticed you didn't mention Unther - probably with good reason? Tymanther was said to have erased it when it fell to 'earth' (such as it is). From TGHOTR, it looked like the Mulhorandi were on the verge of erasing Unther, anyways, though that could just be me misreading your intent...
For what it's worth, I agree with you that Mulhorand could be brought back, with a few bumps and bruises. The land it once occupied is now...what...wastelands? I see no reason why it couldn't be brought back lock, stock, and barrel. It might entail a war with the Imaskari, odd as that may seem, but there's all that empty expanse doing absolutely nothing. One Mulhorandi city left, which the Imaskari suppress like no one's business - perfect site for a conflict upon Mulhorand's reappearance.
And Maztica...I have always maintained it should have fallen roughly where it corresponds to the deep Indian Ocean on Earth...nothing but trackless sea there, perfect for a new land without messing with any present continental landmasses, beyond a tsunami or six.
Please don't interpret my words as saying "I don't want them brought back". I very much would like Maztica brought back, and Returned Abeir relocated to...well, I think my suggestion works best.  - in this way, everyone wins. Same with Mulhorand - while I admit I am not as attached to that region as you are (and could see why it was chosen as the site to host the genasi and dragonborn (ugh) nations), it's a good idea to have as much of the 'Old Realms' back as possible while making as few waves as possible. I do not want the 4th Edition aficionados to have to go through the same experience that we pre-timejump fans did. And it looks like the lads at Wizbro are trying to insure that this time, everyone wins. (crosses fingers.) |
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Venger
Learned Scribe
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2012 : 12:17:12
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A while back I heard a video review of the 4E Realms by a reviewer who called himself the Grumpy Celt (who labelled the 4E Realms an RPG they play in Hell), and he had the following to say about Mulhorand and Thay, which I agreed with.
quote:
Those Red Wizards were once a part of the setting’s fantasy version of Egypt, but the Red Wizards successfully rebelled. After several centuries of staring at their navels, fantasy Egypt become organized and began conquering its neighbors. It appearance as an empire with a marching army offered the intriguing possibility of this fantasy Egypt turning its attention on the Red Wizards, those rebels and long standing villains of the larger settings. However, developers made a decision to wipe fantasy Egypt off the map and over run the land of the Red Wizards with undead. Fantasy Egypt – and all the adventure possibilities that setting offered - is simply gone and a one-note fantasy Dawn of the Dead replaced the turmoil and intrigue-riddled land of the Red Wizards.
The game opportunities not only narrow, they flatten.
If you cannot find worthwhile game opportunities in a conflict between fantasy Egypt and a nation of evil bastard wizards, then you are doing it wrong.
Frankly, I was looking forward to the burgeoning conflict between Mulhorand and Thay, and for one party to just be summarily removed from the setting while the other was turned into a nation of mostly undead as everything unique about it was gutted and stripped out really, REALLY sucked and I hope the 5E Realms bring both parties back as they were and get back to that promised conflict, postponing it rather than cancelling it altogether. |
"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power." |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6448 Posts |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2012 : 13:52:12
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| So what does the Abeir-Toril split has to do with the Sundering? that's weird |
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Larloch
Acolyte
Spain
24 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2012 : 13:53:51
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I always liked the idea of a fragmented Unther as was presented in Power of Faerun. It added a lot of possibilities with a lot of factions fighting for power with the looming shadow of a reborn Mulhorand trying to impose some sort of control. Coupled with the presence of the Cult of the Dragon in the area and Tchazzar, it added possibilities to had some sort of Interregnum with Mesopotamian flavor. Thay and others groups (like the Zhentarim as where portrayed in The Alabaster Staff) where some nice complements for a campaign with lots of intrigues, political fights and schemes.
I never understood why it has to be blow away instead of presenting it with some notes concerning the different factions, theirs goals, area of influence, main personalities and how the PJ could fit in. For me, it presented and scenario where the PJ could be a major political actor very quickly and allowed considerable freedom for the Dm if they feel over-pressured by the amount of lore existing for other areas of the Realms. |
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Farrel
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
239 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2012 : 14:05:05
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I've deliberately not commented on 5E up until this point because I at least wanted to give WotC a fair chance...
From what i'm reading they really still don't "get it".
The only thing that might have brought me back to buying Realms products would have been 4E and The Spellplague being erased from canon completely.
The 100 year timeline jump, the Spellplague debacle, the destruction of amazing Deities, the killing off of wonderful NPC's...
In my mind you can polish a turd as much as you want, you can rebrand it, put extra bells and whistles on it... it's still a turd though.
Damn i'm depressed again. 
The opinions in this post are entirely my own and they have been watered down for public consumption. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2012 : 14:33:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
So what does the Abeir-Toril split has to do with the Sundering? that's weird
Well the Definition of Sundering is : to break or wrench apart, Sever
So I'd say the split has everything to do with it |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 18 Aug 2012 14:50:45 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2012 : 14:38:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Farrel
I've deliberately not commented on 5E up until this point because I at least wanted to give WotC a fair chance...
From what i'm reading they really still don't "get it".
The only thing that might have brought me back to buying Realms products would have been 4E and The Spellplague being erased from canon completely.
The 100 year timeline jump, the Spellplague debacle, the destruction of amazing Deities, the killing off of wonderful NPC's...
In my mind you can polish a turd as much as you want, you can rebrand it, put extra bells and whistles on it... it's still a turd though.
Damn i'm depressed again.
The opinions in this post are entirely my own and they have been watered down for public consumption.
Well to be fair. They purposely are avoiding a reboot , reset or recon. They absolutely want to avoid that mistake. In the minds of the team in charge now, the way they are handling it is respect all lore from the past. Their will be some reworking of things ( as in they specifically will address the spell plague, the missing/dead gods, returned abeir and others) many things just won't have a light shone on them. Their feeling is, as designers, they hope that their work will be respected in the future and are trying to treat others work as they would wish theirs to be. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2012 : 15:02:24
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Farrel
I've deliberately not commented on 5E up until this point because I at least wanted to give WotC a fair chance...
From what i'm reading they really still don't "get it".
The only thing that might have brought me back to buying Realms products would have been 4E and The Spellplague being erased from canon completely.
The 100 year timeline jump, the Spellplague debacle, the destruction of amazing Deities, the killing off of wonderful NPC's...
In my mind you can polish a turd as much as you want, you can rebrand it, put extra bells and whistles on it... it's still a turd though.
Damn i'm depressed again.
The opinions in this post are entirely my own and they have been watered down for public consumption.
Well to be fair. They purposely are avoiding a reboot , reset or recon. They absolutely want to avoid that mistake. In the minds of the team in charge now, the way they are handling it is respect all lore from the past. Their will be some reworking of things ( as in they specifically will address the spell plague, the missing/dead gods, returned abeir and others) many things just won't have a light shone on them. Their feeling is, as designers, they hope that their work will be respected in the future and are trying to treat others work as they would wish theirs to be.
I don't think they realize they really wouldn't anger many fans at all if they reboot/retcon/reset a section of the Realmslore that the majority of Realms fans already considered a reboot/retcon/reset to begin with. And, in the designers own words before the release of the 4E Realms, it actually was.
To simplify, if I was getting pepperoni pizza and suddenly I'm being served pineapple Sicilian pizza, which I don't really like, then I don't think I'd get upset if I suddenly was being served my pepperoni pizza again, which I loved to begin with.
Though there are a few things in 4E Realms I do enjoy and consider canon, personally (the Aboleth Sovereign was actually a good idea). But stuff like completely transforming the biology of an entire race (genasi and elves) or shifting the origins of entire planar beings (demons are elementals...? Evil angels? Really...? Chaotic Good celestials degraded to faerie elves?) should not still be accepted. I honestly don't know how they plan to fix that without doing some sort of "reprogramming" you might say, instead of an entire omission. |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2012 : 15:32:19
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Farrel
I've deliberately not commented on 5E up until this point because I at least wanted to give WotC a fair chance...
From what i'm reading they really still don't "get it".
The only thing that might have brought me back to buying Realms products would have been 4E and The Spellplague being erased from canon completely.
The 100 year timeline jump, the Spellplague debacle, the destruction of amazing Deities, the killing off of wonderful NPC's...
In my mind you can polish a turd as much as you want, you can rebrand it, put extra bells and whistles on it... it's still a turd though.
Damn i'm depressed again.
The opinions in this post are entirely my own and they have been watered down for public consumption.
Well to be fair. They purposely are avoiding a reboot , reset or recon. They absolutely want to avoid that mistake. In the minds of the team in charge now, the way they are handling it is respect all lore from the past. Their will be some reworking of things ( as in they specifically will address the spell plague, the missing/dead gods, returned abeir and others) many things just won't have a light shone on them. Their feeling is, as designers, they hope that their work will be respected in the future and are trying to treat others work as they would wish theirs to be.
Well, to be completely fair to all of the fans (because everyone should get input), MANY many older fans deeply want a reboot/reset. It's not a mistake, in our eyes, to completely wipe away the offensive period of 4E.
No matter what is done, there will be reworking of things. But to continually call a reboot a mistake is to ignore a great many former fans. And I'd honestly bet good money that there are more fans who wouldn't mind a reboot than there are fans of 4E.
WotC chose to retain 4E, and that WILL anger a lot of fans who probably will not ever come back. Don't be totally dismissive of the older fanbase. We feel silenced, shot down, it's really NOT good and it's disrespectful.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 18 Aug 2012 15:37:23 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2012 : 15:42:17
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Also I am curious about the "What is the Sundering?" panels yesterday and today. Were there any additional details given for the Realms beyond what we learned at the keynote address?
A summary of that would be nice, for those of us that didn't get there this year. How about the Candlekeep meeting, anything additional learned from that meet-up? I was hoping that someone would summarize that as well, or better yet post a video or audio somewhere online.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2012 : 16:04:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
Also I am curious about the "What is the Sundering?" panels yesterday and today. Were there any additional details given for the Realms beyond what we learned at the keynote address?
A summary of that would be nice, for those of us that didn't get there this year. How about the Candlekeep meeting, anything additional learned from that meet-up? I was hoping that someone would summarize that as well, or better yet post a video or audio somewhere online.
Amen to that. Have been looking around the net to see if anything more was posted, but haven't found much yet... |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4492 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2012 : 17:21:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
Well, to be completely fair to all of the fans (because everyone should get input), MANY many older fans deeply want a reboot/reset. It's not a mistake, in our eyes, to completely wipe away the offensive period of 4E.
Which wouldn't be fair to all the fans then. And to suggest that the events after 1375 DR be wiped away as a solution is just as an affront and offensive to people of the opposite view.
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
No matter what is done, there will be reworking of things. But to continually call a reboot a mistake is to ignore a great many former fans. And I'd honestly bet good money that there are more fans who wouldn't mind a reboot than there are fans of 4E.
Post-spellplague Realms, you mean (as to not get confused with the 4E rules themselves). And while I'd take that bet in a heartbeat, there's literally no way of knowing how valid those numbers (pro-reboot vs. non-reboot) are. Besides, invalidating Author's work from the Post Spellplague novels and the many Dragon/Dungeon articles (including Ed's) is something that I do not want to see. The fact that they're not doing this is something of a saving grace for me any many other post-Spellplague fans. I'd hope they stand by the continunity established after GHotR.
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
WotC chose to retain 4E, and that WILL anger a lot of fans who probably will not ever come back. Don't be totally dismissive of the older fanbase. We feel silenced, shot down, it's really NOT good and it's disrespectful.
Which would be the same case had they wiped 4E away (re-boot, retcon) with their current fan-base. It's easier to carry a current fanbase to the next edition instead of hoping older fans come back in an apologetic way.
As for feeling silenced and shot down, you have 20+ years of Realms material to draw inspiration from, hundreds of Dragon and Dungeon articles and magazines, hundreds of pre-Spellplague novels to read, and a great many other resources such as boxed sets to entertain yourself with. As a fan of the 4E Realms and the Post Spellplague era, I've got relatively little to work with that directly relates to the timeframe in which I want to play. I can surly convert a lot of stuff (and I have) from past editions and use that source material a lot, but it's not the same as having a book that has exactly what's going on in the Realms that I can draw a direct line to with any one of my story lines. Take Returned Abeir for example, little was written for that area in the Realms (heh, just like Maztica) and I'd like to enjoy exploring that place but to do that, I either need more information OR make it up as I go. The latter is what I'll do because it's what I enjoy but other times, it's easier to just crack open a book and go with it as-written.
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Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator
E6 Options: Epic 6 Campaign |
Edited by - Diffan on 18 Aug 2012 17:25:12 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2012 : 17:44:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Which wouldn't be fair to all the fans then. And to suggest that the events after 1375 DR be wiped away as a solution is just as an affront and offensive to people of the opposite view.
I'm guessing, by your response, that you don't like it either.
But it doesn't change the fact that 20+ years of fandom can hardly match with 2-3 years.
Ultimately, WotC decided to side with this small new group. And by retaining that period instead of choosing the reboot, they're just doing the same thing all over again IMO.
quote:
As for feeling silenced and shot down, you have 20+ years of Realms material to draw inspiration from, hundreds of Dragon and Dungeon articles and magazines, hundreds of pre-Spellplague novels to read, and a great many other resources such as boxed sets to entertain yourself with.
Same argument as always. But I'll tell you this: I lived through those 20+ years, I've seen and used all of that old material. Multiple times with different groups. So I'd actually like something new at this point, not someone spinning the same-old tired argument that there's SO MUCH for me to use. I've used everything from the past that I'm going to use.
Furthermore, by retaining everything I really dislike from the past few years and just moving forward, WotC really isn't adding to the older lore material. They're building on to the radically altered new worlds, which may seem like it's a sufficient repair - but only if you haven't been intimately familiar with the Realms over the 1E-3E period.
It's extremely unlikely that I'll ever buy into a Realms that keeps the past 3 years of material as part of the overall package. WotC is really forcing me and my group to search for something new at this point. |
"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2012 : 17:58:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Razz
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Farrel
I've deliberately not commented on 5E up until this point because I at least wanted to give WotC a fair chance...
From what i'm reading they really still don't "get it".
The only thing that might have brought me back to buying Realms products would have been 4E and The Spellplague being erased from canon completely.
The 100 year timeline jump, the Spellplague debacle, the destruction of amazing Deities, the killing off of wonderful NPC's...
In my mind you can polish a turd as much as you want, you can rebrand it, put extra bells and whistles on it... it's still a turd though.
Damn i'm depressed again.
The opinions in this post are entirely my own and they have been watered down for public consumption.
Well to be fair. They purposely are avoiding a reboot , reset or recon. They absolutely want to avoid that mistake. In the minds of the team in charge now, the way they are handling it is respect all lore from the past. Their will be some reworking of things ( as in they specifically will address the spell plague, the missing/dead gods, returned abeir and others) many things just won't have a light shone on them. Their feeling is, as designers, they hope that their work will be respected in the future and are trying to treat others work as they would wish theirs to be.
I don't think they realize they really wouldn't anger many fans at all if they reboot/retcon/reset a section of the Realmslore that the majority of Realms fans already considered a reboot/retcon/reset to begin with. And, in the designers own words before the release of the 4E Realms, it actually was.
To simplify, if I was getting pepperoni pizza and suddenly I'm being served pineapple Sicilian pizza, which I don't really like, then I don't think I'd get upset if I suddenly was being served my pepperoni pizza again, which I loved to begin with.
Though there are a few things in 4E Realms I do enjoy and consider canon, personally (the Aboleth Sovereign was actually a good idea). But stuff like completely transforming the biology of an entire race (genasi and elves) or shifting the origins of entire planar beings (demons are elementals...? Evil angels? Really...? Chaotic Good celestials degraded to faerie elves?) should not still be accepted. I honestly don't know how they plan to fix that without doing some sort of "reprogramming" you might say, instead of an entire omission.
Most the planar, elemental stuff could be worked out with AO showing up and putting the literal boot up everyone's arse to bring things back into line. If things have been bleeding over where we have evil angels and good demons and other strangeness, I could see that being a problem with the Balance and be something he'd fix. The whole elves and eladrin thing needs to be changed, its just not intuitive and its confusing. Get rid of eladrin, perhaps it was a passing scribe fad to term them that for a century or so etc. If there's going to be a feywild just call them elves and say they area a bit more primordial or something. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2012 : 18:05:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
I'll agree with Irennan about Thay and Mask. Thay is a genuine Realms-specific dash of spice (in its old form). And while I am not overly concerned with Mask, his followers were not just your run of the mill "I lurkz in shadowz and steelz yer stufz" sort of brigand - they had class.
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Ignoring for a moment the question of whether Returned Abeir was a good idea in general, covering up existing realms with it was... well, polite words fail me. You have entire continents that you haven't touched. Why didn't Returned Abeir go there? I mean exclusively there. That would have presented a perfect opportunity to open up the new continents and create more lore. Instead, you opted to erase existing lore. Full reverse. I can be fine with Toril being copy-pasted or whatever it was that happened. I can even be fine with it being glommed back together... largely because we have no lore regarding Abeir for the intervening millennia, so glomming them back together doesn't destroy Abeiran lore. What I cannot be fine with --and I really do think I have a legitimate case-- is dropping a planet on the Realms.
There's no excuse for a planned unglomming failing to fully restore Mulhorand and Maztica and everywhere else to their proper places.
Question for you, xaey: I noticed you didn't mention Unther - probably with good reason? Tymanther was said to have erased it when it fell to 'earth' (such as it is). From TGHOTR, it looked like the Mulhorandi were on the verge of erasing Unther, anyways, though that could just be me misreading your intent...
For what it's worth, I agree with you that Mulhorand could be brought back, with a few bumps and bruises. The land it once occupied is now...what...wastelands? I see no reason why it couldn't be brought back lock, stock, and barrel. It might entail a war with the Imaskari, odd as that may seem, but there's all that empty expanse doing absolutely nothing. One Mulhorandi city left, which the Imaskari suppress like no one's business - perfect site for a conflict upon Mulhorand's reappearance.
And Maztica...I have always maintained it should have fallen roughly where it corresponds to the deep Indian Ocean on Earth...nothing but trackless sea there, perfect for a new land without messing with any present continental landmasses, beyond a tsunami or six.
Please don't interpret my words as saying "I don't want them brought back". I very much would like Maztica brought back, and Returned Abeir relocated to...well, I think my suggestion works best. - in this way, everyone wins. Same with Mulhorand - while I admit I am not as attached to that region as you are (and could see why it was chosen as the site to host the genasi and dragonborn (ugh) nations), it's a good idea to have as much of the 'Old Realms' back as possible while making as few waves as possible. I do not want the 4th Edition aficionados to have to go through the same experience that we pre-timejump fans did. And it looks like the lads at Wizbro are trying to insure that this time, everyone wins. (crosses fingers.)
I'd like Maztica back as some sort of Ron Howard, Conan the Barbarian dark lands, dark fantasy type deal. I don't know if anyone at WotC has played through Age of Conan and the entire starter isle of Tortage, but that was what I think of when it comes to Maztica. |
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Farrel
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
239 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2012 : 18:08:18
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Farrel
I've deliberately not commented on 5E up until this point because I at least wanted to give WotC a fair chance...
From what i'm reading they really still don't "get it".
The only thing that might have brought me back to buying Realms products would have been 4E and The Spellplague being erased from canon completely.
The 100 year timeline jump, the Spellplague debacle, the destruction of amazing Deities, the killing off of wonderful NPC's...
In my mind you can polish a turd as much as you want, you can rebrand it, put extra bells and whistles on it... it's still a turd though.
Damn i'm depressed again.
The opinions in this post are entirely my own and they have been watered down for public consumption.
Well to be fair. They purposely are avoiding a reboot , reset or recon. They absolutely want to avoid that mistake. In the minds of the team in charge now, the way they are handling it is respect all lore from the past. Their will be some reworking of things ( as in they specifically will address the spell plague, the missing/dead gods, returned abeir and others) many things just won't have a light shone on them. Their feeling is, as designers, they hope that their work will be respected in the future and are trying to treat others work as they would wish theirs to be.
I've bolded the type in your reply that I vehemently disagree with.
Where was this same restraint and respect that the 4E design team showed with the pre 4E Realms? They literally took a wrecking ball to 20+ years of material and imagination... They showed neither respect nor restraint... they even had the gall to tell us we would love it!
Please don't take this as any sort of personal attack against you Red, it's just that it has really started to wind me up.
I was actually hoping that the "Sundering" might be a splitting of the timelines. One timeline could carry on with 4E and the Spellplague. The other could be just prior to the frankly absurd notion that Mystra could be murdered on her own plane.
Again, these are just my own opinions and should be no way construed as an attack on any of the wonderful scribes here at Candlekeep. |
Edited by - Farrel on 18 Aug 2012 18:10:12 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36982 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2012 : 18:19:53
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Folks, this thread is about the news coming out of GenCon. It's not a thread to rehash arguments we've been having for 4 years.
Can we please stay on the topic of an event that many of us wish we were attending? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2012 : 18:20:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
A DIRECTOR'S CUT OF THE HAUNTED HALLS?!?!?!?!
YES!!!!!!!!!
Just wondering if +1 posts are allowed?
(actually bah-hoo to the MODS on this one!  )
make mine a +1 to this!
Thanks
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2012 : 18:28:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Folks, this thread is about the news coming out of GenCon. It's not a thread to rehash arguments we've been having for 4 years.
Can we please stay on the topic of an event that many of us wish we were attending?
Wooly, this IS about what's happening at GenCon and the future of the Realms. I understand that you have a fine line to walk when it comes to keeping disagreements civil and polite, but the fact that this keeps coming up means that the core issue has not yet been solved.
Even more importantly, we now know that WotC is watching these boards for comments and opinions. If you keep shutting down one side of an ongoing argument, it actually just drives people away or into silence. And to those people, it looks like you're fronting a party line.
More than ever, I think we now need to see ALL opinions on the table. Isn't that what they're requesting? Or are we going to shut down a lot of good people who share the belief that there's still a serious problem? Do you want the site reduced to just cheerleaders?
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2012 : 18:45:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Folks, this thread is about the news coming out of GenCon. It's not a thread to rehash arguments we've been having for 4 years.
Can we please stay on the topic of an event that many of us wish we were attending?
Wooly, this IS about what's happening at GenCon and the future of the Realms. I understand that you have a fine line to walk when it comes to keeping disagreements civil and polite, but the fact that this keeps coming up
means that the core issue has not yet been solved.
Even more importantly, we now know that WotC is watching these boards for comments and opinions. If you keep shutting down one side of an ongoing argument, it actually just drives people away or into silence. And to those people, it looks like you're fronting a party line.
More than ever, I think we now need to see ALL opinions on the table. Isn't that what they're requesting? Or are we going to shut down a lot of good people who share the belief that there's still a serious problem? Do you want the site reduced to just cheerleaders?
You have to keep in mind that, at Candlekeep, the dialog is dictated not by Candlekeep contributors, but by the Moderators; especially in light of the recent word that sites like this ones propaganda campaigns have real impact on the brand. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2012 : 18:46:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Which wouldn't be fair to all the fans then. And to suggest that the events after 1375 DR be wiped away as a solution is just as an affront and offensive to people of the opposite view.
I'm guessing, by your response, that you don't like it either.
But it doesn't change the fact that 20+ years of fandom can hardly match with 2-3 years.
Ultimately, WotC decided to side with this small new group. And by retaining that period instead of choosing the reboot, they're just doing the same thing all over again IMO.
quote:
As for feeling silenced and shot down, you have 20+ years of Realms material to draw inspiration from, hundreds of Dragon and Dungeon articles and magazines, hundreds of pre-Spellplague novels to read, and a great many other resources such as boxed sets to entertain yourself with.
Same argument as always. But I'll tell you this: I lived through those 20+ years, I've seen and used all of that old material. Multiple times with different groups. So I'd actually like something new at this point, not someone spinning the same-old tired argument that there's SO MUCH for me to use. I've used everything from the past that I'm going to use.
Furthermore, by retaining everything I really dislike from the past few years and just moving forward, WotC really isn't adding to the older lore material. They're building on to the radically altered new worlds, which may seem like it's a sufficient repair - but only if you haven't been intimately familiar with the Realms over the 1E-3E period.
It's extremely unlikely that I'll ever buy into a Realms that keeps the past 3 years of material as part of the overall package. WotC is really forcing me and my group to search for something new at this point.
I've been with the Realms for 20 years myself and I find this solution a better than hoped for compromise. Everything of Realms design goes through Ed. They've hatched this Sundering to supposedly pull Abeir and Faerun apart and AO is back. They've stated they're aiming for that old Realms feel. With this in mind, I'm sure the Spellplague stuff is going to be lore walled away to a footnote in history and we're going to more or less get our old world back, gods and all. The sundering of the two worlds may well fix our map up too.
Take a look at the new playtest packet and the Blingdenstone adventure in it. Wizards hasn't created a sandbox feel adventure of this quality in a long, long time. It's pretty good stuff and tells me they are on track to some Paizo quality type adventures. I hope they can work on this format to make it really shine for all of us.
What I'm really curious to see is if Ed's original conception of certain areas will see the light of day with the Sundering. For all we know, Mr. Greenwood has maps drawn up for what he originally envisioned Mulhorand and Unther or other lands to be and we'll get that with 5E. If we have the gods back, the lands fixed, well all we are really missing is some NPC's who have died over the years. But it's a known fact that Ed has boxes upon boxes of notes and work that hasn't seen the light of day so I'm sure he has "ammo" to create new characters for us to love/hate. I'm sure we'll see the Zhents back, that's an easy fix, just make Fzoul a banelich and he could be rebuilding the org. while Manshoon is currently playing emperor in Cormyr.
Not sure really what else to say man. I was really nervous about these announcements too, because WotC hasn't had the greatest track record with things. And I understand some folks are kind of all or nothing in regards to how things should be fixed and there's not much that can change their mind. But at the end of the day, if we're to get lore heavy books or things like a director's cut of the Haunted Halls of Eveningstar originally envisioned by Ed, I'll support that. It's like they're turning back to the 2E lore days and I'll definitely get behind that. It's a step in the right direction and I'd rather have new Realmslore than none with the entire product line shelved.
And with Ed driving the crazy train, I'm hopping on board for the duration because I wanna see where we go! :) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36982 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2012 : 18:59:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Folks, this thread is about the news coming out of GenCon. It's not a thread to rehash arguments we've been having for 4 years.
Can we please stay on the topic of an event that many of us wish we were attending?
Wooly, this IS about what's happening at GenCon and the future of the Realms. I understand that you have a fine line to walk when it comes to keeping disagreements civil and polite, but the fact that this keeps coming up means that the core issue has not yet been solved.
Even more importantly, we now know that WotC is watching these boards for comments and opinions. If you keep shutting down one side of an ongoing argument, it actually just drives people away or into silence. And to those people, it looks like you're fronting a party line.
More than ever, I think we now need to see ALL opinions on the table. Isn't that what they're requesting? Or are we going to shut down a lot of good people who share the belief that there's still a serious problem? Do you want the site reduced to just cheerleaders?
Saying things like "Where was this same restraint and respect that the 4E design team showed with the pre 4E Realms? They literally took a wrecking ball to 20+ years of material and imagination... They showed neither respect nor restraint... they even had the gall to tell us we would love it!" is focusing on old arguments and old debates. Continuously bringing up the past -- particularly in a highly negative fashion -- is not discussing the future.
If people want to know what Candlekeep scribes think of what was done to the setting in 4E, we've got hundreds of scrolls where this is discussed -- often with some of the same points that keep coming up in here.
It should be clear to anyone who takes the time to look that we are not a bunch of cheerleaders -- particularly myself; I've used some of the same statements about the 4E Realms myself.
What I'm saying is that if you want to discuss the pros and cons of the 4E Realms, feel free to do so. Just please don't do it in a thread that is about GenCon. If I want to see those old arguments again, I can. But I'm looking at this thread for news about GenCon.
In other words, please keep to the topic, and have other discussions in threads dedicated to those discussions.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2012 : 19:03:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Venger
A while back I heard a video review of the 4E Realms by a reviewer who called himself the Grumpy Celt (who labelled the 4E Realms an RPG they play in Hell), and he had the following to say about Mulhorand and Thay, which I agreed with.
I for one would much rather see a sword and sorcery style to the returned Thay and Mulhorand et al rather than just bring back the 'real world' Egypt feel it has previously had.
I suspect an Ed's home game version of Thay as a 'Conanesque Stygia' would interest me much more than any version that has currently been published, (please forgive the crude assumptions of what Thay is actually like in Ed's game given the scant info we have from him, but hopefully it get my point across).
Cheers
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2012 : 19:05:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
I've been with the Realms for 20 years myself and I find this solution a better than hoped for compromise. Everything of Realms design goes through Ed. They've hatched this Sundering to supposedly pull Abeir and Faerun apart and AO is back. They've stated they're aiming for that old Realms feel. With this in mind, I'm sure the Spellplague stuff is going to be lore walled away to a footnote in history and we're going to more or less get our old world back, gods and all. The sundering of the two worlds may well fix our map up too.
Take a look at the new playtest packet and the Blingdenstone adventure in it. Wizards hasn't created a sandbox feel adventure of this quality in a long, long time. It's pretty good stuff and tells me they are on track to some Paizo quality type adventures. I hope they can work on this format to make it really shine for all of us.
What I'm really curious to see is if Ed's original conception of certain areas will see the light of day with the Sundering. For all we know, Mr. Greenwood has maps drawn up for what he originally envisioned Mulhorand and Unther or other lands to be and we'll get that with 5E. If we have the gods back, the lands fixed, well all we are really missing is some NPC's who have died over the years. But it's a known fact that Ed has boxes upon boxes of notes and work that hasn't seen the light of day so I'm sure he has "ammo" to create new characters for us to love/hate. I'm sure we'll see the Zhents back, that's an easy fix, just make Fzoul a banelich and he could be rebuilding the org. while Manshoon is currently playing emperor in Cormyr.
Not sure really what else to say man. I was really nervous about these announcements too, because WotC hasn't had the greatest track record with things. And I understand some folks are kind of all or nothing in regards to how things should be fixed and there's not much that can change their mind. But at the end of the day, if we're to get lore heavy books or things like a director's cut of the Haunted Halls of Eveningstar originally envisioned by Ed, I'll support that. It's like they're turning back to the 2E lore days and I'll definitely get behind that. It's a step in the right direction and I'd rather have new Realmslore than none with the entire product line shelved.
And with Ed driving the crazy train, I'm hopping on board for the duration because I wanna see where we go! :)
I'm glad that you're looking forward to what they have planned, I really am. There have been a lot of positive-sounding promises, but as my wife is fond of pointing out here - until they're published, they're still just promises. And as you said, WotC doesn't have a particularly good track record with promises (DDI has been a travesty).
Both of us have seen the new playtest, including the new sorcerer and warlock. I'm not sure if she's printed off the new adventure, or if we have that part (she's the DM this time around). But I agree that this playtest so far has been an all-around positive experience with few hiccups.
If that overall attitude does work out applying toward the new Realms as well, then that will definitely be a good thing. But still, "not shining a light" on various problems, making repairs to other things, and trying to shine up yet other bad design elements is really not enough IMO. If a dog comes along and takes a dump in the middle of the living room, my advice is to clean the carpet and get rid of the feces, not to spray it with perfumes and paint, or throw a scarf over it and tell people it's been artfully re-purposed. Some people even think dog poop is funny, but that doesn't mean you keep it around, you know?
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Rhewtani
Senior Scribe
USA
508 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2012 : 19:08:49
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| Yeah, but a thread for just announcements and reports of what's taking place at Gencon and a separate one where people argue about those reports would probably work better. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36982 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2012 : 19:13:05
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Folks, this thread is about the news coming out of GenCon. It's not a thread to rehash arguments we've been having for 4 years.
Can we please stay on the topic of an event that many of us wish we were attending?
Wooly, this IS about what's happening at GenCon and the future of the Realms. I understand that you have a fine line to walk when it comes to keeping disagreements civil and polite, but the fact that this keeps coming up
means that the core issue has not yet been solved.
Even more importantly, we now know that WotC is watching these boards for comments and opinions. If you keep shutting down one side of an ongoing argument, it actually just drives people away or into silence. And to those people, it looks like you're fronting a party line.
More than ever, I think we now need to see ALL opinions on the table. Isn't that what they're requesting? Or are we going to shut down a lot of good people who share the belief that there's still a serious problem? Do you want the site reduced to just cheerleaders?
You have to keep in mind that, at Candlekeep, the dialog is dictated not by Candlekeep contributors, but by the Moderators; especially in light of the recent word that sites like this ones propaganda campaigns have real impact on the brand.
There are three moderators on this site, and of those three, only two are visiting on a daily basis. You think that two people can dictate the dialog of hundreds of active scribes? Please.
Moderators have two main jobs on this site: Keeping discussions civil, and keeping them on topic. That's a pretty far cry from dictating dialog.
Here's an example of how we don't dictate dialog: I dislike the 4E ruleset. I dislike what was done to the Realms for 4E. How many times have I ended a discussion simply because it focused on either topic? NOT ONCE. How many times have I waded into to a pro-4E Realms scroll to ask people to keep it civil, or to try to keep the random "4E is t3h suck!" people from ruining an otherwise civil discussion? Many, many times.
I have more than once expressed my own deep dislike for what was done. And I've still put in time and effort making sure that people who disagree with me are still free to discuss it.
Allowing people to express opinions, and trying to encourage an atmosphere where they can do so, is not dictating dialog.
I've taken much flak for daring to have my own opinion. I've also taken much flak for encouraging people to get all the details about something before making an opinion. And I've more than once defended WotC, even though I disagree with much that they've done, the last few years.
Have you defended a purely business decision? Have you encouraged people to learn about something before passing judgement? Have you defended the rights of your own detractors to state their opinion? Have you contributed anything more than snide comments about moderators?
Further, if you have a problem with either Sage or myself, take it up with Big Al. Please. I invite you to do this. It'll get you a lot further than continual snide comments that contribute nothing to the discussion.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 18 Aug 2012 19:15:38 |
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Live! Updates from Gencon 2012
