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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Aug 2012 : 23:35:07
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I have been peering into many a fantasy setting lately and I have something that keeps bothering me: Why are almost all of the Elves of every setting so bloody short?!?!?!
In Grey Hawk, almost all of the Elves are of small stature, except the Grey Elves who are "taller than other Elves" but when checked, they aren't even taller than the average human height. They are also "more slender" than other Elves. Why is this so?! When they say that, I think that they are on the verge of anorexia, since most Elves are described as "slim and slender"! You would think that a more noble type of Elf would be of a more noble build, i.e. broad (not extremely, but in a noble, Elvish like way) and strong (again, in an Elvish way) while remaining ethereally beautiful.
In Forgotten Realms, I have much less to rant about, since the Elves are of general human height, but one thing I don't get is why they all tend to be so vastly different in culture. The Star, Gold and Moon Elves seem to be of a general culture, but Elves like the Aquatic Elves, Avariel, Green Elves and Lythari are extremely different. I'm a HUGE Tolkien Elf lover, so this may be affecting all of my opinions, but it just doesn't seem very Elvish.
In DragonLance, I had high hopes of awesomeness after reading about the Elves of that setting, especially the Silvanesti. But, when I came to learn that they were of about 5'0 in average height (this was in the 3e sourcebook), I all but rage quit (since "quitted" isn't an actual word...). Again, why must they be so short? Elves are supposed to be great, powerful, beautiful beings, but how can something THAT short live up to those. Indeed, when I think of things THAT small, I think something on the lines of infantile.
Even in Blackmoor, an old D&D setting now covered by Goodman games, had dismally short Elves. Where did this archetype come from? Why does it exist?!
Are there ANY Elves outside of these settings (besides FR) that aren't so dismally short? Or were these Elves supposed to be taller, but were rewritten as short?
Elves in fantasy settings that I do enjoy are from Warhammer and The Elder Scrolls. They fit (to me) what Elves should be, and not this dismally shrimpy Elf.
I absolutely ADORE Middle Earth's/Tolkien's Elves. To me, they are the perfect expression (not to mention the first...) of Elves. They are tall, fair (both definitions) and exactly how Elves should be. NOW, I don't think everyone should do Tolkien copies of Elves; that just wouldn't be original, however, some people have just strayed so far out of what the first Elves were that I have to question whether these are actual Elves or just something to completely differentiate themselves from Tolkien's Elves.
Now, about Elvish lifespans...
Why has been so that with every new edition, Elvish lifespans have diminished? I usually prefer immortal Elves, but extremely long lived ones a good too (makes a little room for the newer generation; but then again, since Elves are usually low in population, there's always plenty of room...), but now their lifespans have diminished to about 300 short centuries. Why was this done? What purpose does it serve? Are they bent on making the Elves die off faster or what? In my opinion, Elves should be immortal or live at least past 1000 years.
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4703 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2012 : 23:38:08
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You would need to ask the owners of the Product. Al you might get here are opinions.
Game balance, clearly will be one answer. No sure of others though have a few guesses. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2012 : 23:53:22
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its becuase alot of people griped about their long life spans to wotc.....
I just use the longest lifespan...... as lsited in the 2e complete book of elves |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2012 : 23:55:11
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Originally, the elves of Tolkien were based on earliest myths of the Tuatha de Danan who later became the "fair folk" of Celtic lore. These people were often described as tall, fair, and immortal or nearly so. Human-sized was the norm until the early middle-ages, I believe, when some of the smaller fay-folk got confused with the more human-like elves, and we ended up with elves like the ones in "The Elves and the Shoemaker" and other stories, not to mention Santa's elves, etc. Some modern fantasy stories draw more from this tradition than from Tolkien, which is probably why the discrepancy. I also suspect the life-spans have been shortened to put them more in line with dwarves, though I seem to recall that their life-spans were also a bit longer in older editions as well. PErhaps it is for balance, as Kentinal suggests, though in older editions, that was accomplished through level caps for demi-human races.
And for the record- I'm a HUMAN of only 5' (and about 95-100 lbs), and I take offence to that "shrimpy elf" comment!!! There is nothing at all to suggest that such a stature cannot still be noble and beautiful or strong. (Trust me, I am very "elf-like" in both height and weight, and I can hold my own in a wrestling or sparring match against my six-foot and much heavier hubby...) |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2012 : 00:08:57
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its a so called balance thing to bring them in line in with the other races.
the gag is to remember that the greyhawk elves are not FR elves which in turn are not eberron elves which in turn are not DL elves which in turn are not blackmoor elves wich in turn are not pathfinder elves which in turn are not DS elves which in turn are not mackodemian elves which in turn are not vulcans which in turn are not the alfar which in turn are not tolkienish elves which in turn are not you generic elf from any unnamed setting which in turn vicaversa |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36982 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2012 : 00:24:36
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| I personally don't care if elves are a little shorter or a little taller, I just hate it when they have those ginormous windcatcher ears. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3823 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2012 : 00:26:47
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| ^This. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2012 : 01:01:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Originally, the elves of Tolkien were based on earliest myths of the Tuatha de Danan who later became the "fair folk" of Celtic lore. These people were often described as tall, fair, and immortal or nearly so. Human-sized was the norm until the early middle-ages, I believe, when some of the smaller fay-folk got confused with the more human-like elves, and we ended up with elves like the ones in "The Elves and the Shoemaker" and other stories, not to mention Santa's elves, etc. Some modern fantasy stories draw more from this tradition than from Tolkien, which is probably why the discrepancy. I also suspect the life-spans have been shortened to put them more in line with dwarves, though I seem to recall that their life-spans were also a bit longer in older editions as well. PErhaps it is for balance, as Kentinal suggests, though in older editions, that was accomplished through level caps for demi-human races.
I knew that much about where Tolkien got his Elvish ideas from. I don't understand this need for "balance". Why try to make races similar? I want really different races/species, make them unique!
quote:
And for the record- I'm a HUMAN of only 5' (and about 95-100 lbs), and I take offence to that "shrimpy elf" comment!!! There is nothing at all to suggest that such a stature cannot still be noble and beautiful or strong. (Trust me, I am very "elf-like" in both height and weight, and I can hold my own in a wrestling or sparring match against my six-foot and much heavier hubby...)
Sorry, I meant no offense, Allystra  . It's just that my brain can't put (for Elves, that is) their physical beauty and such into such small statures. It just seems rather like the same ends of a magnet. (This has no bearing on real life and how I see other short people) I guess it's because I'm 6'3 and I tend to view everything that's not around that height as quite short
I agree with Wooly in that I despise those giant eared Elves that have become very popular as of late. I despise them quite a bit.
I want to make the Elves in the fantasy settings that I mentioned before taller, but I just have cannon pressure to keep them of their lore height. Sigh.. Woe beith me.
I mean, if they keep them that short, then the line blurs between long lived halflings with pointy ears and a great aptitude for magic and nature to actual Elves. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2012 : 01:44:14
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| Well, I think you may be underestimating the actual height differences. 5', while rather short by the standards of some folk, is well within the "normal" human range- as a guage, my mother (sorry for the out, mom!) is only 4'9". Which is just slightly over the max height for a midget, and taller still than a RL dwarf. Halflings, in comparison, are only about 3'-3&1/2' tall. That's a pretty big size gap! Almost two feet, to be exact. Dwarves fall aroundthe 4'-4&1/2' mark, on averave, so elves are still much taller even if using the 5' range. To put it another way- elves would be as tall as a shorter human adult, while halflings would be the size of a young child. And at 6'3", you'd be closer to half-orc size! Which is pretty darn tall, by the way..... And nothing equates height/weight to beauty. As mentioned before, I'm quite "elfy" in stature, and according to my other half, in looks as well (I've been known to dress as one for Samhain, and very much look the part, especially with my slender build and slightly angular features. I've a theory that there is some fey blood in my family tree, given the average height of my famliy- I'm of Irish descent, after all!!) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2012 : 02:07:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I personally don't care if elves are a little shorter or a little taller, I just hate it when they have those ginormous windcatcher ears.
I don't mind the "ginormous windcatcher ears," but I'd prefer some of the elven subraces to have different ear shapes/lengths -- and not all be of the "ginormous" category. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2012 : 03:46:02
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tare goblin ears guys.... and gals.
they is just pure evil thsoe ears....
mialee must be sacrificed to gruumsh |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
577 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2012 : 03:47:27
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| In 2E Darksun, elves were 6.5-8 feet tall. It's like the elf NBA up in there. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2012 : 03:55:26
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Reminds me of a story I read, actually, LOL! It was in the anthology "Elf Fantastic" edited by Martin Greenburg as part of the "Fantastic" series of anthologies. (There was a dragon one, witch, horse, five volumes on cats, etc....) The story was called "A Midsummer Night's Dream Team", and featured- you guessed it- a team of elves headed by Oberon himself competing in the Olympics basketball event against the American team of NBA players. Things got REALLY interesting when Puck turned the ref into a chicken for a call they did not like!
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The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2012 : 10:53:37
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quote:
Originally posted by WalkerNinja
In 2E Darksun, elves were 6.5-8 feet tall. It's like the elf NBA up in there.
Rockseer elves are 8 ft. tall |
z455t |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2012 : 18:34:11
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D&D elves are (originally) the height they are because that was Gygax's preference influenced by early modern folklore, Shakespeare and Jonson, Dunsany, Anderson, etc., but much less on the tall elves of Tolkien, who he wasn't a fan of.
As a 'proximate cause' you can trace the Victorian literary image of the short (shorter than D&D) fairy/elf, which Tolkien reacted against, to the 1534 French romance Huon of Bordeaux, 'in which a fairy king is shrunk to the size of a small child by a curse' (Owen Davies, Grimoires, p. 61).
Rules artefacts like the shrinking of elven lifespan thankfully aren't Realmslore. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2012 : 18:47:50
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| Elves are taller and slimmer in than humans in the Pathfinder RPG and Pathfinder Campaign Setting. Check out the table on this page (do a page search for "Random Height and Weight" to skip down to it). |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4492 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2012 : 19:05:25
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| Personally, I'm a fan of elves who look similiar to this ----> Elven Ranger |
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Edited by - Diffan on 16 Aug 2012 19:12:13 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36982 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2012 : 19:07:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Personally, I'm a fan of elves who look similiar to this ----> Elven Ranger
All I saw was a blank page... Is it an invisible elf? |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4492 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2012 : 19:12:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Personally, I'm a fan of elves who look similiar to this ----> Elven Ranger
All I saw was a blank page... Is it an invisible elf?
Lol, yea it wasn't letting me fix the link. All fixed now. |
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E6 Options: Epic 6 Campaign |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2012 : 01:52:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Now see, THAT is how elves should look, IMHO. Skyrim's elves took a wrong turn somewhere between there and Oblivion. They ended up looking emaciated, constipated, and half-dead.....
I think that has more to do with the land itself, rather than the elves. The elves of Cyrodiil for example, enjoyed a bountiful land of nature and harmony for the most part. So the Altmer, the Bosmer, and the rest of the elven subraces could greatly prosper. [I think even one of the Altmer NPCs in Oblivion once remarked that there were parts of Cyrodiil that reminded her of the Summerset Isle.]
Whereas, Skyrim is more of a harsh country, breeding fierce and hardy people, rather than nurturing the kinship necessary between land and elves -- which is probably why the elves appear so ragged and emaciated. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2012 : 00:30:11
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| I wouldn't say elves are always short. The elves of Dark Sun were tall. The elves of birthright, I think, were tall. The snow elves were tall. That being said, I don't have a problem with them being shorter and more delicate than humans. Most fairy-type fey are typically portrayed as smaller, and in making elves as smaller somewhat it provides a linkage. However, like Sage just said, I'd more prefer a genuine mix in elves. For instance, I'd have no problem with wood elves being the "taller-than-human" variety and maybe as a result they wield longbows that are frankly unwieldable by humans because they're a foot longer, and maybe they take advantage of this height by using reach with spears. Maybe those elves have really big ears. Then, maybe the more noble, royal elves are actually slightly shorter with pointed but less "gaudy" ears, riding on delicate steeds, wielding thin dueling blades, wearing delicate and light mithril armor, etc... Then go with drow and make them a LOT shorter (a little taller than dwarves) to show their adaptation to living in caves. Again, only if I were totally redesigning a world... I don't find it that big of a deal in general. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2012 : 00:58:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Hmmm, and here I thought it was just bad character design.... I honestly liked their looks in Oblivion much better- at least they looked like elves, and not just "pretty" orcs.
Interestingly enough, I've considered using imagery of the elves from Skyrim as possible character images for Athasian elven NPCs from time to time. Of course, I actually have to run a new DARK SUN campaign to make use of such imagery, but... I think they would be useful pics.
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2012 : 14:43:19
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How is decreasing their lifespan a "game balance" thing at all? Did players really use an elf's age to power game? I call shenanigans on that. Every elf book released always had an explanation on why long-lived elves didn't simply just "master everything". For one main reason, it's because they are pretty lackadaisical most of the time, and when they do focus on their tasks they simply master that one task over and over. And, unlike humans, they don't push themselves hard to master a task, they have all the time in the world.
That's how I kinda understood how their lives work. I have yet to meet a player that told me,"My elf is 700 years old and has several levels in Fighter, Wizard, and Rogue before starting out."
All they did by lowering the elf age is show their utter disregard for established and precedent D&D lore, and probably "killed" several important elf characters in the process. |
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Elvish Height and Lifespan
