| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Aug 2012 : 23:10:45
|
| Do tell, MT! I for one would like to hear that one. I wonder if the lack of progress might stem partially from writers and designers "writing what they know", so to speak? It's eaiser to write about a character who 9at least partly) shares one's own viewpoint, lifestyle, race, culture, etc. And with a game industry dominated by white males, it's easy to see how they might simply be creating characters who match their own perspectives of fantasy- ie, they are writing about "themselves" in a fantasy setting. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
 |
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2012 : 23:37:23
|
Well, IIRC, nearly every early 3e splat 'featured' Redgar facing some sort of horrific doom, to the point where in one of the last covers done this way it merely showed pieces of his blood-covered armor.
They spent many a splat killing him off, without the ad team catching on. I can't recall the specific covers - if I knew where I read about all this (it may have even been on the WotC site), that article mentioned some of the books he was 'killed' on the cover.
If anything, it shows they were dead-set against this demographic shoe-horning that will always force D&D to stay a 'niche hobby'. The designers have always taken a more liberal approach to the setting and game.
EDIT: Heroes of Horror featured the bloody pieces of Redgar's armor. I'll see if I can find others. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 22 Aug 2012 23:41:01 |
|
|
|
Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2012 : 23:42:36
|
Guys, the diversity question is a really good one (thanks Razz, MT, and AI), but this thread is about the CANDLEKEEP SEMINAR. Start a new thread to talk about Diversity in the Realms, and I will be there like a shot.
Let's get back to talking about the announcements at the seminar and what they mean for the setting going forward.
quote:
Originally posted by ZeshinX
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
And I question the "Bestselling Novels have to blow things up" concept. Bob's Drizzt novels were never RSEs until *maybe* Siege of Darkness (8 books in), then again in Gauntlgrym. Generally speaking, he's done quite well for himself telling the small, personal stories that don't blow up the Realms.
I'd hardly consider Siege of Darkness an RSE in the sense of blowing things up. Sure, things did blow up, but hardly on a world altering scale (though I would ask any of the mind flayers who tried to eat the Harpells brains...I'm sure their world was rocked hahaha).
Hence my word choice of *maybe*. 
quote:
The biggest effects of SoD were that Mithral Hall was a location on the world map again, and House Baenre changed leadership. The Realms were very much as they were before SoD, just with a new pip on the map. Additive fiction. 
Additive is indeed the word.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
|
|
|
Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 00:52:10
|
It was, indeed, a great event. Thank you all for putting it together. I, my wife, and my friends very much enjoyed it.
It was also a pleasure to put a face to a name for the panelists and fellow scribes in attendance. I look forward to seeing you all at future events.
The give away (a very well made, well designed pin) was fantastic. All four of us wore them on our badge lanyards for the rest of the convention! |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 01:34:20
|
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
My interest has been piqued by these tidbits surrounding Ao's reforging of the Tablets of Fate.
I'm keen to see exactly how and [fully] why they're being reforged and how this may affect the deities/primordials of Toril and Abeir respectively.
The Tablets were part of the original Sundering, and remained in place as a sort of buffer to keep the worlds apart.
It's probably early days still, yet, but can we expect that this particular function of the Tablets will be elaborated on in "The Sundering" lore?
quote:
Upon them was scripted divine reality as Ao's Sundering made it to function. The Tablets were the single link between the twinned worlds, because they contained the names of both gods and primordials upon them.
The truenames of both deities and primordials? Hehe.
quote:
When the Tablets were destroyed in the Time of Troubles, it started the process of the worlds coming back together. Abeir and Toril started to crash together on that very day, but the process was slow from a mortal perspective--it took decades for anything but the smallest hints of the conjunction to be visible. But if you look at it, after the ToT, that's when we started to see things like genasi and more elemental beings popping up, created by influences from Abeir.
Hmmmm. Perhaps the "death" of Mystra was the final 'component' in this grand scheme of bringing the two worlds back together. Which could, possibly, suggest that both the Goddess of Mysteries and her Weave, have a much more defined connection with Abeir, than we've previously been led to believe.
quote:
The process of the worlds crashing together was expedited in 1385 when the Weave of Magic collapsed. I theorize that the Weave was part of what kept the worlds apart, and without its lattice to support the separation, Abeir and Toril simply shifted back into their natural state: together.
Ah, I see you've also already reached that conclusion too. 
Still, it would definitely interest this ol' sage to know more about how the Weave works with Abeir.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 01:55:11
|
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
@Dennis: I'm not sure how AO's reconstruction of the Tablets will be addressed in the fiction, if it even will (directly). My sense of the Sundering novels is that they are mostly personal, character-driven stories, with the divine and political dramatic implications of the Tablets of Fate taking place mostly in the background. I couldn't comment on whether there will be actual scenes involving the gods directly. I guess we'll have to see.
And I question the "Bestselling Novels have to blow things up" concept. Bob's Drizzt novels were never RSEs until *maybe* Siege of Darkness (8 books in), then again in Gauntlgrym. Generally speaking, he's done quite well for himself telling the small, personal stories that don't blow up the Realms.
Cheers
Drizzt is more like an exception. How many characters, old and new, have even come close to his and his companions' popularity?! And look at most of the Realms' most famous characters: the Chosen, Larloch, The Srinshee, Telamont, Szass Tam, Karsus, Mystra, Ioulaum, Manshoon, Asmodeus... See what they have in common? They're too powerful to literally shake a huge chunk, if not the whole of Toril.
I'm not against character-driven novels. I've read a fair number of non-RSE books and found most of them enjoyable. Besides, an RSE novel can still be character-driven. In fact, if we go back to the most influential work in the realm of fantasy, namely J.R.R. Tokien's The Lord of the Rings trilogy, we see how a story that involves massive changes in the world can still give so much focus on its characters. Almost everyone has a tendency to be the greatest, whether consciously or subconsciously; and at times this is being projected to their choice of books. When you want to be the greatest, you don't settle on changing the lives of two or three people; you'd want to change the whole world.
On your openly gay character: Looking forward to that. Hopefully he's not an elf or an orc?! |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 03:21:03
|
Thank you so much for your detailing of everything that went down Erik.
I have to say, for the first time in a long time, I'm extremely excited about the direction in which things are moving. I can't think of a single complaint that I've had over the years with the Realms that wasn't addressed.
If WotC is prepared to keep those promises, then they can consider me once again a loyal customer. I'm actually so excited that I'm planning to go out and get a copy of the Menzo book, which I wasn't planning to do originally. I'm not a big fan of Menzo, I just want to see how they handled the material to get an idea of what the 5E FRCS might look like...
Honestly, I can't remember when I've been this excited about a Realms product. I feel like WotC finally gets it. Every issue that I've ever had with the Realms has been addressed, from the insane number of RSE's, to the over use of the deities themselves as characters, to the way the lore is handled in the source books.
I couldn't have imagined a better outcome. It really feels like the best of every edition - from the freedom offered in 4E to the feeling of depth and continuity offered by previous editions - is being melded into what the Realms should have been for a very long time.
As a long time critic of things, even to the point of boycotting all novels due to the RSE's, I couldn't be happier with what has been announced. We still have to see the final product, of course, but the fact that these are the principles being used as guides moving forward in the process... I'm hopeful. I'm even prepared to buy the Sundering Novels to show support.
Thanks again Erik. |
|
|
|
Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 04:03:55
|
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
And I've speculated that just as some primordials were trapped in Toril (e.g. Istishia, Kossuth, Grumbar, Akadi, Magaera), so were some gods trapped in Abeir, but that's another story.
Don't mean to derail this thread, but who is the bolded figure you spoke of? I can't find information on that being anywhere here or elsewhere online and in connection with the Realms? |
|
|
|
Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5699 Posts |
|
|
Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 16:04:26
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
@Dennis: I'm not sure how AO's reconstruction of the Tablets will be addressed in the fiction, if it even will (directly). My sense of the Sundering novels is that they are mostly personal, character-driven stories, with the divine and political dramatic implications of the Tablets of Fate taking place mostly in the background. I couldn't comment on whether there will be actual scenes involving the gods directly. I guess we'll have to see.
And I question the "Bestselling Novels have to blow things up" concept. Bob's Drizzt novels were never RSEs until *maybe* Siege of Darkness (8 books in), then again in Gauntlgrym. Generally speaking, he's done quite well for himself telling the small, personal stories that don't blow up the Realms.
Cheers
Drizzt is more like an exception. How many characters, old and new, have even come close to his and his companions' popularity?!
In terms of novel sales, none. In terms of love among the fans and designers? We're talking classics like Alias, Elminster, Elaith, Arilyn, Danilo, etc.
quote:
And look at most of the Realms' most famous characters: the Chosen, Larloch, The Srinshee, Telamont, Szass Tam, Karsus, Mystra, Ioulaum, Manshoon, Asmodeus... See what they have in common? They're too powerful to literally shake a huge chunk, if not the whole of Toril.
Sure, they *can* shake the world, but they don't *have to* in order to tell a good story.
quote:
I'm not against character-driven novels. I've read a fair number of non-RSE books and found most of them enjoyable. Besides, an RSE novel can still be character-driven. In fact, if we go back to the most influential work in the realm of fantasy, namely J.R.R. Tokien's The Lord of the Rings trilogy, we see how a story that involves massive changes in the world can still give so much focus on its characters. Almost everyone has a tendency to be the greatest, whether consciously or subconsciously; and at times this is being projected to their choice of books. When you want to be the greatest, you don't settle on changing the lives of two or three people; you'd want to change the whole world.
Sure. But the extra wrinkle when dealing with the Realms is that we're also talking about a game world, where you are literally asking your audience to come along with you no matter how you change/blow up your world. When you start blowing up their favorite places and characters, it might make a good story, but what do you have then? A new world where people have to scramble to make it up. This is not to mention the continuity nightmare that faces editors, authors, and designers thereafter.
The cycle of RSEs has been debated and discussed many, many times. The Realms isn't going to focus on RSEs going forward. Their stories might be big and potentially catastrophic for the world, but the idea is to tell stories that are distinctly theirs, without breaking everyone's toys, and without forcing gamers into the position of having to retcon/ignore an event they don't like in order to keep playing in the world. Picture a Realms campaign like a marathon run: RSEs are hurdles gamers have to jump, while smaller stories provide extra avenues to pursue if they want to take shortcuts or scenic routes.
quote:
On your openly gay character: Looking forward to that. Hopefully he's not an elf or an orc?!
What I have planned? No, he isn't.
But that's a discussion for the diversity thread, I suppose!
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
And I've speculated that just as some primordials were trapped in Toril (e.g. Istishia, Kossuth, Grumbar, Akadi, Magaera), so were some gods trapped in Abeir, but that's another story.
Don't mean to derail this thread, but who is the bolded figure you spoke of? I can't find information on that being anywhere here or elsewhere online and in connection with the Realms?
I might be spelling it wrong . . . in fact, I am. I'm referring to Maegera, the fire primordial bound under Mt. Hotenow near Neverwinter, which is part of the reason that city keeps such a temperate climate, and whose unbinding resulted in catastrophic damage to the city in the 1470s.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
|
|
|
smerwin29
Acolyte
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 16:05:06
|
| Late to the party, but thanks to Erik, Matt, and Brian for putting the event together, and to all the other panelists for sharing their views. Thanks too for keeping the event PG-13 until my daughter left. I appreciate the consideration. It has been fun working in the Realms for the past 6 years or so, and gaining a ton of insight from those who have gamed, read, and worked there previously. |
|
|
|
Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 16:34:44
|
Thanks again, Erik, for the account.
I like the gesture of rationalizing the RSEs as the Era of Upheaval. I'm no more likely to use them in a campaign, but good to see the discontinuity with how things were before 1358 acknowledged. |
|
|
|
Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1632 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 17:09:21
|
Yeah I agree, the Sundering manages to pull the RSEs together like a string of pearls.
I will say I do like RSE, not so much the Spellplague, but I loved the Time of Troubles. Still a break after the Sundering would be okay, a chance to tell different stories.
In fact it was TOTs that got me in the Realms in the first place, that and the original pool of radiance game. Loved that game. |
|
|
|
idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 19:29:51
|
quote:
Originally posted by DennisDrizzt is more like an exception. How many characters, old and new, have even come close to his and his companions' popularity?! And look at most of the Realms' most famous characters: the Chosen, Larloch, The Srinshee, Telamont, Szass Tam, Karsus, Mystra, Ioulaum, Manshoon, Asmodeus... See what they have in common? They're too powerful to literally shake a huge chunk, if not the whole of Toril.
When I think of famous Realms characters I think of a couple names on your list, but it seems to be missing Alias and Dragonbait, Liriel, definitely Arilyn Moonblade, Danilo, Elaith, Everis Cale, and then all of the characters that accompany Drizzt or oppose him like Jarlaxle and Entreri. I don't have the sales figures, but I would think that the Erevis Cale trilogy and all of Elaine Cunningham's books sold very well at least without blowing up the Realms with an RSE. Moving forward I'd much rather see stories like The Crystal Shard, Elfshadow, or Azure Bonds than Return of the Archmages or The Last Mythal. Not that these were necessarily badly written but I'd rather not have chunks of the Realms rewritten due to a series.
I would love to see Ed's "director's cut" Haunted Halls of Eveningstar, and put me on the list of people who would do questionably moral or illegal things to get my hands on a 300 page Under Illefarn. I wonder at the viability of multi-era support in each book, but as I haven't got my hands on the new drow sourcebook to see how it works I can't be sure that WotC won't find a great way to make a book that I won't have to ignore more than half of to use.
I'm less impressed with the way that gods are going to be handled, assuming i understand it right. I don't want to see another Avatar trilogy, but I like the idea that the gods you choose to worship have meaning. I'd rather not see "your character gets power, it doesn't matter who is providing it". I like in the 2e god books how elven Heartwarders of Sune invite Hanali Celanil's wrath and that a rivalry exists between the two goddesses, for example, or the idea that the gods send little signs and have different minor manifestations. Of course, when DMing I can run things how I have, that's no problem, and if the novels are small character driven then it's probably freeing for the authors to be able to include minor signs of favor or followers of any deity they want. Also, I'm very happy that churches are going to be important, even if the gods themselves aren't. In the end that's a minor nitpick and I'll live with it if the other aspects of the 5e Realms draw me in.
The progressive themes thing doesn't matter to me one way or the other. I tend to see the Realms as open compared to Earth in regards to how they handle gender, sexuality, and ethnicity, and I read that openness into stories even where it might not be intended. Although, I hadn't realized that 4e Cormyr nixed all the strong female figures until you pointed it out, and while some of my favorite realms characters are female (Alias, Arilyn Moonblade, and Alusair are definitely in my top 5, if not the top 3, with Erevis Cale in there somewhere), it certainly does look like overall male heroes are more common. So long as the stories are still good and tokenism/quotas are avoided authors should write about whoever they want.
Thanks for posting the summary, between the things said and the optimism designers and scribes who were there seem to be having I'm firmly in the cautiously optimistic camp regarding the future of the Realms, an upgrade from my previous cynicism and, worse, uncaring phases I had in regards to the Realms' future. |
Edited by - idilippy on 23 Aug 2012 19:32:07 |
|
|
|
Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 02:01:37
|
Nice write up Erik, thank you for that.
It's a bit remiss of Ao to have destroyed the Tablets of Fate in the first place. I mean, surely he would have known the results of his actions? Breaking the barrier between the two worlds that he himself set in place, only to have to recreate it and set things right again in the future.
I think it could have been handled better.
To me, it seems like a bit of a fudge. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 03:04:47
|
All we've heard thus-far Arcanus is the 'outline' - we still don't have the whole story of what really went on. There could have been dozens of other factors involved we don't know about yet (and thats a hint to designers/authors to start coming up with those 'factors').
Then again, we never got the full story on Mystra 2.0's death, either.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Marc
Senior Scribe
662 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 17:22:04
|
I've been saying for years that the Tablets of Fate had power. Our gaming group will ignore the Sundering the same way as it did the Spellplague. We changed few years ago the story of the Sundering because the idea of transplanting Arvandor to make a homeland was illogical. If the elven high mages had the power to split continents why the didn't open the gates and migrate to Arvandor?
From what I'm hearing about the 6 six novels, no retcons, no reboots, no changes, this is the War of the Spider Queen 2. |
. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 19:17:39
|
Its funny, for the Elven Netbook project I created the concept of the Tablets of Destiny (not to be confused with the Vedic Tablet of Destinies), having briefly forgotten about Ao's tablets of fate.
They serve a different purpose, but I think on some 'grand level' all three artifacts (including the Vedic one) should be related. They are basically an accounting of how a world is supposed to be - almost like a 'reference manual' (rule book) for the Over-gods. When something diverges from that path, such items can be used to 'make corrections'.
The one I created pertained to the Elven race, starting with their beginnings in Faerie (as the mortal children of the Fey). Glad I never finished it, because I have very different ideas about some of the early stuff now.
Anyhow, I never cared for Ao or the tablets (or anything else Avatar-related), but I have to admit it is a clever plot device to fix things now. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 22:45:11
|
Oh AO knew *exactly* what he was doing. He brought down the Era of Upheaval on the Realms, in part to punish the gods, or perhaps just show them that their actions have real consequences. Now he's ready to do away with the era and get back to the way the Creator always intended the Realms to be.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
|
|
|
Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 22:59:59
|
| That's exactly how I see it, Erik. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Candlekeep Seminar 2012 Summary
