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Originally posted by jordanz

Are there any tales depicting conflicts between paragons of opposing alignments and or portfolio's? I was reading up on how Gwynharwyf, of the Court of Stars actually dispatched Kostochie, resulting in his banishment to the abyss. Cool stuff, I love lore and paragons are interesting to me because they are not quite gods yet insanely powerful anyway.

How common are these types of confrontations? Is it me or does it seem like archfiends aim high and usually plot to take out true divine types.


Also I read that there are only 16 celestial paragons that seems amazingly low considering there are many many more archfiends. Where's the balance there? It's not as if the celestial paragons are more powerful.

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Originally posted by combatmedic

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Originally posted by jordanz

Are there any tales depicting conflicts between paragons of opposing alignments and or portfolio's? I was reading up on how Gwynharwyf, of the Court of Stars actually dispatched Kostochie, resulting in his banishment to the abyss. Cool stuff, I love lore and paragons are interesting to me because they are not quite gods yet insanely powerful anyway.

How common are these types of confrontations? Is it me or does it seem like archfiends aim high and usually plot to take out true divine types.


Also I read that there are only 16 celestial paragons that seems amazingly low considering there are many many more archfiends. Where's the balance there? It's not as if the celestial paragons are more powerful.

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The big name celestials have never had a very prominent place in the game, outside Planescape. They came into the game materials only in the 1990s, and have never achieved iconic status. Nothing even close to the name recognition of Orcus, Demogorgon, Asmodeus, etc. This makes sense if you thinking of these sorts of beings mainly as monsters that the PCs might encounter on an adventure. Thwarting the plots of archfiends or looting an infernal treasure vault sounds like more fun than tea and finger sandwiches with celestial paragons.


That's not to say that celestial paragons can't be used well by a good DM, or that they are no fun. They are harder to use in many sorts of adventures, though.


You wrote 'tales', though, so I take it that you were asking about novels and short stories. I can't answer that question, except with a guess that big bad fiends still probably get more ink than their counterparts of the upper planes.

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Originally posted by Quale

there's no balance, the fiends outnumber the celestials, only the Blood War saves the upper planes

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Originally posted by Bladewind

The Empyrean Odyssey shows some powerful angelic servants of Tyr and Torm, focusing on Tauran (angel of Tyr) and Kael (half demonic/half drow champion of Torm). They try to foil the plans of Zasian, a powerful servant of Cyric, and Kaanyr Vhok, a cambion with great ambitions; and later on Kashada, an aspect/avatar/servant of Shar. The conflicts between Tyr and Torm prior and during the Spellplage are portayed on a personal level of these servants of the gods.

The surprising thing is that in the novel series, the celestial paragons, i.e. archons, solars and 'higher level' angels, were just as useless as the other divine servitors. They had no clue what was transpiring between Tyr and Torm when the two of their realms started to collapse and crash onto eachother.

But other than that I have seen no references to paragons in realms fiction that I read.

Malkazid used to be one of those powerful Solars in servitude to the Seldarine, untill he was cast down into the hells after his betrayal of Corellon Larethian. He might be an example of why celestial paragons in the realms are very careful: the goodly Gods of Faerun are keeping vigil for any intrusions of evil into the psyche of their servitors, ready to oust them to the Hells or Abyss when needed.

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Originally posted by jordanz

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Originally posted by Quale

there's no balance, the fiends outnumber the celestials, only the Blood War saves the upper planes

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Isn't the Blood War over?

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Originally posted by Bladewind

It comes down to most fantasy roleplaying publishers thinking (or noticing) that "Being Good = Not Sexy".

White Wolfs World of Darkness (WoD) RPG's thrived in the nineties because they focused on in depth sexy monster roleplaying; Vampires and Werewolves were intricately explored and given a measure of humanity. Vampires had relatable motivations, Werewolves had to struggle with the Beast within. All very compelling themes.

This would have been a lot harder to sell if they'd chosen to focus on roleplaying angelic servitors for dieties that champion certain human virtues. An angel in service to the god of vigilance has a more limited range of motivations, and is therefore more removed from humanity than a vampire ever will be. Less relatable means less sexy in the end.

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