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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1632 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Aug 2012 : 20:40:28
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Okay I been thinking about the fundlemental nature of the Tablets and have come to realization about them. Ready?
Thier tablets of fate.
Duh right? But most people are thinking of the tablets as just flat chunks of stone with names chished into them.
I mean tablets like Apple's I Tablets, or Samsung's Galaxy tablets, although they look like ancient stone tablets.
Think about it these are artifacts capable of splitting worlds apart, raising beings to Greater God status or Primordials, and deleting them, controlling fate, changing the Portfolios of Gods which are more then Job titles, cleaning up the spellplague thier the very essence of a God, regulating the divine nature of diety hood and who knows what else.
That suggests more then hunks of stone with a list of names, it hints at artifacts of supreme power and complexity.
They have to manage complex forces, like gravity, magic, weak and strong force and who knows what else.
So if its more like magical computer tablets with the power of an engine of creation it must have the magical equilvant of programs, magical processes triggered by certain types of,inputs, and massive data storage.
This would explain how deities can die, mortals can be raised up to Godhood, the various forces and laws of magic and laws physics invovled in splitting worlds apart can be calculated and managed.
This also explains how Talos raised various beings to Godhood like Velsharoon. He knows,the parimetres that will trigger the diefication of a mortal and sets up situations to trigger them so that he can ultimately feed on the new demigod.
It explains why Gods can die, how they can come back to life, why and how new Gods can enter Toril, change portofolios, rules everything in encoded in the Tablets of Fate themselves, and as such they are self correcting and updating.
But most beings couldn't access the higher functions themselves, even Gods, they don't have clearance even if they hold the tablets of fate.
I also figure one tablet is for Toril, the other Abier and that thier linked, always exchanging data to maintain existance according to thier program.
Of course that hints at an interesting posiblity. Abier and Toril aren't the only planets in the Realmsian sphere. Does Glyth for example have its own Tablet of Fate and if so what type,of horrid beings might it list? Far Realmsian Elder evils, Archdevils, Demon Princes, Dreadlords?
The Tablets of Fate may contain backup copies of all the Gods and Primordials, which would explain how easy it is for AO's reborn Tablets to resurrect all the Gods. Restore back up. That,assumes that the new tablets automatically recover all data from the old ones.
Of course I've expressed my understanding in modern terms, of course while it explains it on a function level the actual processes with be more magical of course.
Anyone have thier own opinion or thoughts on the Tablets of Fate themselves and thier functions?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36982 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2012 : 20:49:14
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If the Tablets could do all you suggested, then the Dark Three would have gotten some benefit from stealing them, and Very Bad Things would have happened as soon as they were destroyed.
But there was no benefit, and nothing happened when Ao destroyed them.
That indicates to me that they were just rocks, with symbolic import -- much like paper currency in most real-world countries has no intrinsic value, it's the government behind the currency saying it has value that makes it worth something. |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2012 : 21:15:08
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| +1 to Wooly. They would have been far more powerful in the hands of the Dark Three. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2012 : 22:57:41
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I think Gyor and Wooly could both be right. The tablets could function similar to how Gyor suggests. Blending the analogies of both of them Ao could be the "government" behind the currency, or the "administrator" who is the only one who can access the tablet's power. Without Ao's power they were just useless rocks.
Why would the Dark Three steal something that turned out to be useless? It makes them look like idiots. Instead, perhaps they had knowledge that Ao used the tablets, and believed that they could as well. Only to find out when they obtained them that they didn't have the ability to access their power.
In a way, I'd describe the tablets as being a stabilization of Ao's will on Realmspace. Ao is all powerful and can do whatever he wants, but sustaining that will takes some measure of effort on his part. The tablets therefore function as a way to make his will permanent and inflexible.
...and I would point out that bad things did happen as a result of the destruction of the Tablets of Fate. The entire Era of Upheaval is supposed to be (according to my understanding) a direct result of their destruction. |
Edited by - Aldrick on 29 Aug 2012 22:58:46 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2012 : 23:11:54
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The tablets are were just a physical manifestation of Ao's will. The destruction of the tablets was symbolic - he merely became neutral regarding the matters covered by the Tablets of Fate.
In other words, he just decided he wasn't going to give a s*#$ anymore. It was that simple. When he started to care again, the Tablets were 'made whole'.
If someone burned the original copy of the Constitution, it wouldn't mean the Constitution was no longer valid. Its just a symbol (albeit an important one). The Dark Three stole the symbol, but they never had any real power. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1632 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2012 : 23:47:15
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The Dark Three wouldn't have risked AO's wrath over a symbol, its clear they thought it had great power.
They've made it clear that the tablets kept the worlds apart.
Also while the Three stole the Tablets they hid them in the realms immediately to cover thier tracks. They hoped to recover them later to explore and figure out thier power, but AO caught on first, stripped them power and dumped them on Toril. They never had the time to explore thier power. Maybe if AO had acted slower they may have hacked his protections on the Tablets accessed thier power. AO prevented that.
The breaking of Tablets realigned the two worlds by removing what kept them apart and the spellplague weilded parts together like a blow torch.
Actually the Gods themselves are like sentient programs and without the hardware, antiviral software and OS they just don't work right, causing crashing and the blue screen of death.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36982 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2012 : 23:54:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
The Dark Three wouldn't have risked AO's wrath over a symbol, its clear they thought it had great power.
And yet it is canon that they did risk Ao's wrath over a symbol.
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
They've made it clear that the tablets kept the worlds apart.
I'm not aware of this assertation. It also doesn't track -- if the tablets are what kept the worlds apart, why did nothing happen for 20 years after the tablets were destroyed, and why is it stated that the collision of the worlds happened because of Mystra's murder?
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Also while the Three stole the Tablets they hid them in the realms immediately to cover thier tracks. They hoped to recover them later to explore and figure out thier power, but AO caught on first, stripped them power and dumped them on Toril. They never had the time to explore thier power. Maybe if AO had acted slower they may have hacked his protections on the Tablets accessed thier power. AO prevented that.
Yup, he prevent them from accessing the non-existent power.
There is nothing in canon that indicates the tablets are anything other than a slightly more permanent form of paper contract.
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
The breaking of Tablets realigned the two worlds by removing what kept them apart and the spellplague weilded parts together like a blow torch.
The breaking of the tablets did nothing. The murder of Mystra caused the worlds to collide. Again, this is canon.
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Actually the Gods themselves are like sentient programs and without the hardware, antiviral software and OS they just don't work right, causing crashing and the blue screen of death.
I don't see this analogy at all... |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2012 : 00:16:36
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I thought that at the What is the Sundering panel at GenCon, it was stated that breakin the tablets started the worlds in motion towards each other. Since the tablets, separated not only the worlds , but the primordials from the gods. Mystra's death greatly accelerated what would have been a slow process. I intend to watch the video of that panel again, but haven't had the time.
But I don't think they really have power over anything else, I think the dark three were just were so power hungry, they did steal something with minimal benefit to them. Like idiots. Like mortals (or formal mortals) tEnd to look when dealing with gods. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 30 Aug 2012 00:19:23 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2012 : 01:51:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In other words, he just decided he wasn't going to give a s*#$ anymore.
Yeah, that's always how it sounded to me in canon, and it seems like this is the angle being played up. Honestly, I find it funny. Ao is basically like a petulant child who, when he doesn't get his way, picks up his ball and goes home.
"My rules! My game! My ball! If you don't play the way that I want you to play, then no one will play at all because I'm going home!"
Ao = Crybaby DM with a God Complex
Gods = Players
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2012 : 01:58:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That indicates to me that they were just rocks, with symbolic import -- much like paper currency in most real-world countries has no intrinsic value, it's the government behind the currency saying it has value that makes it worth something.
I like the idea that the Tablets once possessed something more than just symbolic meaning. It's only after the various deities established their own agendas and starting disrupting the celestial plane [as the Time of Troubles evidenced], that they lost all particular actual power that might have had. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2012 : 04:26:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
If someone burned the original copy of the Constitution, it wouldn't mean the Constitution was no longer valid. Its just a symbol (albeit an important one). The Dark Three stole the symbol, but they never had any real power.
Excellent analogy. |
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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2012 : 04:36:04
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What the tablets were, to what I believe, was something the powers themselves believed in. This belief shaped the reality of Faerun, for better or worse, over thousands of years.
It's a heck of an extension of the Planescape idea that your belief creates your reality. |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2012 : 06:48:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In other words, he just decided he wasn't going to give a s*#$ anymore.
Yeah, that's always how it sounded to me in canon, and it seems like this is the angle being played up. Honestly, I find it funny. Ao is basically like a petulant child who, when he doesn't get his way, picks up his ball and goes home.
"My rules! My game! My ball! If you don't play the way that I want you to play, then no one will play at all because I'm going home!
Actually, to me, if was more along the lines of a 'cosmic lesson' being taught....
"Be careful what you wish for."
The gods were unhappy with the rules, so he threw the rulebook out. They found-out the hard way that the rules protected them far more then it hindered them. Anarchy may look good on paper (to some), but when applied its not so great. Ironically, even chaos needs structure. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2012 : 07:01:45
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| The Dark Three did not know what to do with them, it was too complex magitech. In the Sundering video the designer said Ao uses the tablets as a tool, without them the split would be as catastrophic as when the elves cast their spell. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2012 : 07:14:45
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The problem is, they went from merely being symbols (the conclusion of the Avatar Series) with no real power, to now being a major McGuffin, so its contradictory, and somewhat annoying.
Which is why I would prefer that the real tablets were destroyed earlier in the timeline, which would mean the ones the Dark Three stole WERE just symbols, and different from the originals and the ones 5e is using for the deus ex machina.
Unless Ao just outright lied. However, that would have been pointless, in light of what they are trying to do now (the deities would not have learned anything from their mistakes, if they believed the Tablets were worthless). It just doesn't make a lot of sense. If Ao lied, then fine, but I am going to need a damn good reason why he did so. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1632 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2012 : 14:01:39
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| I'm going to check my books, but I don't remember AO ever actually saying they were powerless symbols, I just remember AO breaking them like they were worthless and I think people assumed that they were worthless based on his actions, but it was reader assumption based on AO's behavior, never actual canon. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36982 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2012 : 16:37:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
I'm going to check my books, but I don't remember AO ever actually saying they were powerless symbols, I just remember AO breaking them like they were worthless and I think people assumed that they were worthless based on his actions, but it was reader assumption based on AO's behavior, never actual canon.
There is nothing in canon that suggests there was anything more to the Tablets, either.
I think the lack of a Realms-shattering kaboom, upon the destruction of the tablets, is clear enough indication that they were purely symbolic. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 30 Aug 2012 16:38:43 |
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2012 : 16:55:00
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| Those there has seen the first indiana jones movie might be tempted to consider the dust from the original tablets as having artifact power |
Edited by - Gustaveren on 30 Aug 2012 16:55:22 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36982 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2012 : 17:54:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Gustaveren
Those there has seen the first indiana jones movie might be tempted to consider the dust from the original tablets as having artifact power
Assuming that the tablets themselves had power, which I've yet to see any indication of. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2012 : 01:42:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
I'm going to check my books, but I don't remember AO ever actually saying they were powerless symbols, I just remember AO breaking them like they were worthless and I think people assumed that they were worthless based on his actions, but it was reader assumption based on AO's behavior, never actual canon.
Or could simply have been that the Tablets lost their value and importance as the gods further deviated from the path Ao originally set down at the time of their creation.
Which is why he ultimately broke them, and, potentially, at the same time, considered reforging them in light of what was then [the death of Mystra II, the Spellplague] to come. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2012 : 01:46:06
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At any rate, I think folk might be attaching entirely too much importance to the physical manifestation of the Tablets. They served, mainly, as the physical component of Ao's original decrees for the gods and their relationships with the mortal sphere. Those decrees still exist whether the physical Tablets are maintained or not. It's all as Ao's willing.
The breaking of the Tablets is merely Ao's way of emphasising the irrelevance of those decrees, now. When the gods of the Realms fell, it wasn't because the Tablets were broken, it was because Ao took away their divinity and cast them down. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2012 : 02:00:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If the Tablets could do all you suggested, then the Dark Three would have gotten some benefit from stealing them, and Very Bad Things would have happened as soon as they were destroyed.
But there was no benefit, and nothing happened when Ao destroyed them.
That indicates to me that they were just rocks, with symbolic import -- much like paper currency in most real-world countries has no intrinsic value, it's the government behind the currency saying it has value that makes it worth something.
Nope, Gyor's hitting on something that I was discussing in the other thread. So, the dark three get their hands on the tablets. Taking Gyor's example, maybe the tablets have "bio-rhythmic safeguards" on them that prevent anyone other than Ao from messing with them. They've also got some damn good "anti-virus software" and "firewall" software on them to prevent anyone from outside accessing the code. So, the dark three got their hands on some really cool hardware that they couldn't access.
So, what did Ao do when he destroyed the tablets? He backed up the tablets, then he removed the bio-rhythmic safeguards, the anti-virus software, and the firewalls. Then he sat back and watched to see what would happen. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2012 : 02:07:51
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If the Tablets could do all you suggested, then the Dark Three would have gotten some benefit from stealing them, and Very Bad Things would have happened as soon as they were destroyed.
But there was no benefit, and nothing happened when Ao destroyed them.
That indicates to me that they were just rocks, with symbolic import -- much like paper currency in most real-world countries has no intrinsic value, it's the government behind the currency saying it has value that makes it worth something.
Nope, Gyor's hitting on something that I was discussing in the other thread. So, the dark three get their hands on the tablets. Taking Gyor's example, maybe the tablets have "bio-rhythmic safeguards" on them that prevent anyone other than Ao from messing with them. They've also got some damn good "anti-virus software" and "firewall" software on them to prevent anyone from outside accessing the code. So, the dark three got their hands on some really cool hardware that they couldn't access.
So, what did Ao do when he destroyed the tablets? He backed up the tablets, then he removed the bio-rhythmic safeguards, the anti-virus software, and the firewalls. Then he sat back and watched to see what would happen.
Oh, and to add one more factor, maybe he also removed the "read-only" attributes from the "god files" directory and turned them to "read-write". In modifying the "god files" his "program" turned the Mulhorandi deities to the same standard as the other gods. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36982 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2012 : 04:24:45
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| I dunno, I need to see something in canon that indicates there might be more to the tablets. With absolutely nothing indicating there was more to the tablets, I don't see any reason to assume there's more there. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2012 : 05:42:27
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I'd rather the Tablets of Fate didn't exist at all. I find it a too convenient reboot/reset tool. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2012 : 20:18:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Gustaveren
Those there has seen the first indiana jones movie might be tempted to consider the dust from the original tablets as having artifact power
I am wondering, what happened to the dust from the destroyed tablets?
It sounds as a cool component for some magical item crafting or spell components for some insane wizard rituals
How wellknown is it, that AO destroyed the tablets of fate?
Just the gods and a few sages or? |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2012 : 20:25:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I'd rather the Tablets of Fate didn't exist at all. I find it a too convenient reboot/reset tool.
I know "canon" is everchanging and evolving, but I would love to know who first came up with them and what there intent was for them, before they were co-opted and reminted as what they now mean. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2012 : 20:42:13
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I think they were supposed to just be a physical manifestation of Ao's will, nothing more. The Dark three somehow got it into their heads that it was the tablets themselves that held the power.
Personally, I'd blame that on Shar - her 'Black Chronology' appears to be her attempt at steering the world down a certain path of prophesy. She orchestrated a series of events that would lead to the ascension of Cyric, and the eventual destruction of Mystra. Its probably not the first time she's done so (its hinted at in some late 3e sources she was behind the Karsus affair as well).
Ao's breaking of the tablets just symbolized that he was 'fed up' with the deities, and let them know 'all bets are off'. Thats the impression I got from the Avatar Crisis. He was teaching them a lesson of structure over anarchy.
If they are using the Tablets of fate as a McGuffin for 5eFR, then that would still work. His 'reforging' of them just means that he is exerting his will (concerning the cosmology) once again. They would still only be a symbol of that will.
I don't know how anyone could alter the tablets with Ao allowing it. That only makes sense if some other deus ex machina was involved (like an uber-artifact, or an Elder evil, etc). To me, thats akin to a suggestion spell... on AO! |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 31 Aug 2012 20:43:19 |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2012 : 22:01:01
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As Ao is the supreme superdooper all-powerful overgod, why would he need the tablets to hold any power whatsoever? His will is all it takes to do anything.
To me the tablets were originally just symbols of Ao's will and decrees.
The new (2.0 lol) tablets may be different but I hope not. |
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2012 : 22:09:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
As Ao is the supreme superdooper all-powerful overgod, why would he need the tablets to hold any power whatsoever? His will is all it takes to do anything.
To me the tablets were originally just symbols of Ao's will and decrees.
The new (2.0 lol) tablets may be different but I hope not.
Well, the dust might hold power since it has been directly touched by AO's power from items there has long been symbolic and believed /(worshiped) by the gods to hold power.
It seems to me, that worship in the realms can create divine power and the gods spend a long time believing the tablets to hold power |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2012 : 22:33:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Gustaveren
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
As Ao is the supreme superdooper all-powerful overgod, why would he need the tablets to hold any power whatsoever? His will is all it takes to do anything.
To me the tablets were originally just symbols of Ao's will and decrees.
The new (2.0 lol) tablets may be different but I hope not.
Well, the dust might hold power since it has been directly touched by AO's power from items there has long been symbolic and believed /(worshiped) by the gods to hold power.
It seems to me, that worship in the realms can create divine power and the gods spend a long time believing the tablets to hold power
Everything in the realms was created (touched) by Ao, does that make every single thing magical?
Effects of belief and worship in realms follows strict rules set out by Ao. If everybody worshipped an apple would the apple ascend to godhood? Of course not, although I kinda laugh at the notion of a fruit bowl pantheon.  |
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The Nature of the Tablets of Fate
