| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Sep 2012 : 23:17:28
|
| Do mortals actually know about the tablets and their history? |
 |
|
|
Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2012 : 23:22:11
|
| The priest Adon (there is a friend of midnight) was present on mount waterdeep when AO smashed the tablets |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2012 : 03:23:49
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
He could have simply told them, "I am your Father, the Overgod. I am the law. I am everything. Whatever I will and whatever I say, you obey. Or face annihilation." Having it written on Tablets like The Ten Commandments just doesn't make sense to me.
I think it makes perfect sense for Ao to write the rules down. As a parent, at one time I had a list of rules posted on my fridge. When you do that, they can't say "I didn't know", or "I forgot". Even countries with despots have written laws - people (and deities) have to know what you are punishing them for.
"Follow these rules, or DIE." As simple as that. Given the consequence, no god would dare disobey.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I think they were supposed to just be a physical manifestation of Ao's will, nothing more.
Why on Toril would he need a "physical manisfestation" of his will when he's all-powerful in his own Crystal Sphere? To make the universe more vulnerable to the gods' idiotic meddling?! Meh. That's a brilliant plan coming from a brilliant overgod.
Ao and the Tablets are the least I expected when they announced that Ed would be the head of the team that would "fix" the Realms. He didn't create Ao in the first place. So I thought he'd be using materials that he himself made.
On the other hand, it could make perfect sense.
Suppose some 'Connecticut Yankee' and his buddies went back in time, with guns, and started taking over the place. The best way for the locals to counter that would be to get their hands on one (or more) of the guns and use it to take-out the bad guys. In the movie Independance day, the only way for us to defeat the aliens was to use their technology against them.
Now, there's a problem with that analogy. One, Ao doesn't need a toy such as the Tablets to punish his unruly children when they misbehave; a glare from him is all it needs to obliterate a deity. Two, said toy would just encourage his children to misbehave. Three, IF he really thought it important to create the Tablets, he should have surround it with impregnable defenses. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2012 : 03:38:13
|
Ummmmm... Ao isn't real. Didn't anyone tell you? 
 
I was speaking about WotC, not Ao. They used the 'Ao McGuffin' during the ToT, which lead us down this path of ever-expanding RSEs. Now, the only way to put the damn 'genie' back in the bottle is to have the genie present. Basically, we have to use him to put himself back in the bottle. Thats why WotC is using Ao and the Tablets of Fate to 'fix things'. Ao is a tool, nothing more.
They are doing a reset of sorts, but an even 'softer' reset then we ever considered. Ao 'pushed the Red Button' during the ToT, and now he is un-pushing it. Its actually a pretty clever way to 'put things right', because it uses old (2e) lore that most folks didn't like. That tells me they aren't just listening to us about 4e, they are addressing the problems of 3e and 2e as well. Not exactly the 'clean slate' 4e was shooting for - more like a "all is as it should be".
You got to admit, using Ao and the Tablets is a much better reset then the whole Abeir + spellplague fiasco. At least this is firmly entrenched in previous lore. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 03 Sep 2012 03:40:49 |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2012 : 03:54:45
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Ummmmm... Ao isn't real.
Nothing in FR is real. It's a fictional setting. Duh. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1632 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2012 : 05:34:18
|
As strange as this sounds I prefer to refer to these sorts of things as fiction instead of not real for philosphical reasons. To most people they're the same thing, but most people are wrong. Fiction is a state of existance where something whose existance is strictly information/ideas and has no seperate manifestation from human neurons and arts.
Not existing is something the does not appear in the universe not even as either idea, art, or information and has no reference points and thier for can never be the subject of discussion, because to truely not exist in any form means there is no way for it to enter human discussion. The irony is that none existance itself exists because thier are things that don't exist, but we can discuss those because they don't exist. Beautiful Paradox.
Sorry this is a tangent, but I find the nature of none existance captivating :D
Your lucky I don't start on why I think at the level Omnipotence, Omnibelvence becomes a vapid concept.
|
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2012 : 07:04:55
|
I was just making light of what I perceived was Dennis misunderstanding my intent.
I didn't mean Ao was using the Tablets of Fate, I meant WotC was using both of them to fix things. I switched from in-game mode to meta-gaming mode - my apologies for any confusion.
And just to set the record straight, I never liked the concept of Ao (well... maybe the concept); I thought it was little heavy-handed (what part of the ToT wasn't?) I liked that 3e and 4e completely ignored him (which is how it should be, whether he exists or not). However, I am not adverse to them using him one last time if it gives us good in-game (in-setting) reason for having many things we lost return to us.
Be it gods, realms, people, etc.
Hopefully, we will have no need to ever see him again. I am going to assume his boss is Ed, and after he repairs the damage, he will put Ed in-charge and retire. I here Florida is nice. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 03 Sep 2012 07:05:55 |
|
|
|
Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2012 : 14:53:00
|
| I'm interested in how this affects latest Elminster books. The purpose of this series is to bring Mystra back, if all of the gods are coming back anyway, it kinda makes the series redundant. |
|
|
|
Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2012 : 15:15:26
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I was just making light of what I perceived was Dennis misunderstanding my intent.
I didn't mean Ao was using the Tablets of Fate, I meant WotC was using both of them to fix things. I switched from in-game mode to meta-gaming mode - my apologies for any confusion.
And just to set the record straight, I never liked the concept of Ao (well... maybe the concept); I thought it was little heavy-handed (what part of the ToT wasn't?) I liked that 3e and 4e completely ignored him (which is how it should be, whether he exists or not). However, I am not adverse to them using him one last time if it gives us good in-game (in-setting) reason for having many things we lost return to us.
Be it gods, realms, people, etc.
Hopefully, we will have no need to ever see him again. I am going to assume his boss is Ed, and after he repairs the damage, he will put Ed in-charge and retire. I here Florida is nice.
I'm hoping this is the case. Ao reforges the Tablets of Fate, the Gods stop being used as characters and things start to return to "normal" as they were pre-ToT. Ao recedes from the picture as the Tablets govern the gods in his stead, and he falls silent. Pretty much as good as Ao being non-existent. |
|
|
|
Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2012 : 17:49:11
|
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I was just making light of what I perceived was Dennis misunderstanding my intent.
I didn't mean Ao was using the Tablets of Fate, I meant WotC was using both of them to fix things. I switched from in-game mode to meta-gaming mode - my apologies for any confusion.
And just to set the record straight, I never liked the concept of Ao (well... maybe the concept); I thought it was little heavy-handed (what part of the ToT wasn't?) I liked that 3e and 4e completely ignored him (which is how it should be, whether he exists or not). However, I am not adverse to them using him one last time if it gives us good in-game (in-setting) reason for having many things we lost return to us.
Be it gods, realms, people, etc.
Hopefully, we will have no need to ever see him again. I am going to assume his boss is Ed, and after he repairs the damage, he will put Ed in-charge and retire. I here Florida is nice.
I'm hoping this is the case. Ao reforges the Tablets of Fate, the Gods stop being used as characters and things start to return to "normal" as they were pre-ToT. Ao recedes from the picture as the Tablets govern the gods in his stead, and he falls silent. Pretty much as good as Ao being non-existent.
I like reading novels about the gods and other powerful beings. You don't have to change the realms in any major way to write stories about them.
In 5e there is room to include all beings from the most wretched to the uber strong.
No more RSE though! |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2012 : 18:06:02
|
I think a cameo here or there (the way Ed handled them - SUBTLY) would be okay, but I don't want novel about gods. To me, thats a Planescape novel (because it takes place in the cosmology, not on Toril). I want to hear about the followers of gods - I think they are far more interesting.
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
I'm interested in how this affects latest Elminster books. The purpose of this series is to bring Mystra back, if all of the gods are coming back anyway, it kinda makes the series redundant.
While I can totally see your point, Ed has been aware of their new direction for some time. How do we know his series wasn't designed to 'kick-off' the Sundering event?
You may be "putting the cart before the horse" here. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 03 Sep 2012 18:06:41 |
|
|
|
Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2012 : 21:46:43
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I think a cameo here or there (the way Ed handled them - SUBTLY) would be okay, but I don't want novel about gods. To me, thats a Planescape novel (because it takes place in the cosmology, not on Toril). I want to hear about the followers of gods - I think they are far more interesting.
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
I'm interested in how this affects latest Elminster books. The purpose of this series is to bring Mystra back, if all of the gods are coming back anyway, it kinda makes the series redundant.
While I can totally see your point, Ed has been aware of their new direction for some time. How do we know his series wasn't designed to 'kick-off' the Sundering event?
You may be "putting the cart before the horse" here.
The thought had occured to me |
|
|
|
Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 06:54:24
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
AO is more powerful then a Greater God, but not all powerful. He's not omnipowerful or omnipresent. In Divine Rank terms he'd be like a 20, vs a Greater God's 10.
Ao is explicitly an overgod, making him DvR 21+. Once you reach that stage, you're beyond anything below you. Beyond the understanding of mortals, concerned with matters beyond the scope of gods. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 08:11:42
|
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I was just making light of what I perceived was Dennis misunderstanding my intent.
I didn't mean Ao was using the Tablets of Fate, I meant WotC was using both of them to fix things. I switched from in-game mode to meta-gaming mode - my apologies for any confusion.
And just to set the record straight, I never liked the concept of Ao (well... maybe the concept); I thought it was little heavy-handed (what part of the ToT wasn't?) I liked that 3e and 4e completely ignored him (which is how it should be, whether he exists or not). However, I am not adverse to them using him one last time if it gives us good in-game (in-setting) reason for having many things we lost return to us.
Be it gods, realms, people, etc.
Hopefully, we will have no need to ever see him again. I am going to assume his boss is Ed, and after he repairs the damage, he will put Ed in-charge and retire. I here Florida is nice.
I'm hoping this is the case. Ao reforges the Tablets of Fate, the Gods stop being used as characters and things start to return to "normal" as they were pre-ToT. Ao recedes from the picture as the Tablets govern the gods in his stead, and he falls silent. Pretty much as good as Ao being non-existent.
I like reading novels about the gods and other powerful beings. You don't have to change the realms in any major way to write stories about them.
In 5e there is room to include all beings from the most wretched to the uber strong.
No more RSE though!
I like reading novels about the gods too. I mean, maybe this is a bad analogy, but mythology is full of the stories about gods. Why should the Realms be any different? If the Realms is going to stay the Realms, shouldn't the gods be involved? I like the idea of them coming back, but having the dead ones come back only to have them less involved sounds kind of contradictory to me. If Ao wants to put them in their place, fine, but this doesn't mean they need to be less involved. It just means their portfolios and roles are more defined and they can't mess around as much. This probably includes mortals, but the Chosen have played an important role in the past, so why stop now? And not having mortals be pawns is fine, but it doesn't have to mean the gods have to be less relevant, as I have stated before.
Also, as I have said before, how can the role of the gods be up to us if we can't do/know anything until the novels and sourcebooks are out? It's not like we can say "oh, I choose this god to have this portfolio and do this" if we do not have access to the novels or sourcebooks. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 08:34:01
|
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
AO is more powerful then a Greater God, but not all powerful. He's not omnipowerful or omnipresent. In Divine Rank terms he'd be like a 20, vs a Greater God's 10.
Ao is explicitly an overgod, making him DvR 21+. Once you reach that stage, you're beyond anything below you. Beyond the understanding of mortals, concerned with matters beyond the scope of gods.
In the system I had worked-out sometime ago, Ao is at least DvR 26.
There needs to be a layer between Ao and greater gods for leaders of pantheons, like Fate, the Celestial Emperor, and Maztica (and I would count Mystra amongst them). I refer to these as 'high gods' (DvR 21-25), and they would be kinda like demi-Overgods.
Not that any of that is canon - just sayin' Ao needs to be higher then DvR 25, 'cause 21 is too close to what some deities are. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 13:45:51
|
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
I'm interested in how this affects latest Elminster books. The purpose of this series is to bring Mystra back, if all of the gods are coming back anyway, it kinda makes the series redundant.
Well to be fair her death kicked off the whole Spellplague thing and affected every being in Realms Space.....so a series about her coming back is not out of line in amount of "coverage" since that should affect every being as well. The other gods deaths affected many, by no where near the number of Mystra's death. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
|
|
|
|
The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 13:48:45
|
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I was just making light of what I perceived was Dennis misunderstanding my intent.
I didn't mean Ao was using the Tablets of Fate, I meant WotC was using both of them to fix things. I switched from in-game mode to meta-gaming mode - my apologies for any confusion.
And just to set the record straight, I never liked the concept of Ao (well... maybe the concept); I thought it was little heavy-handed (what part of the ToT wasn't?) I liked that 3e and 4e completely ignored him (which is how it should be, whether he exists or not). However, I am not adverse to them using him one last time if it gives us good in-game (in-setting) reason for having many things we lost return to us.
Be it gods, realms, people, etc.
Hopefully, we will have no need to ever see him again. I am going to assume his boss is Ed, and after he repairs the damage, he will put Ed in-charge and retire. I here Florida is nice.
I'm hoping this is the case. Ao reforges the Tablets of Fate, the Gods stop being used as characters and things start to return to "normal" as they were pre-ToT. Ao recedes from the picture as the Tablets govern the gods in his stead, and he falls silent. Pretty much as good as Ao being non-existent.
I like reading novels about the gods and other powerful beings. You don't have to change the realms in any major way to write stories about them.
In 5e there is room to include all beings from the most wretched to the uber strong.
No more RSE though!
I like reading novels about the gods too. I mean, maybe this is a bad analogy, but mythology is full of the stories about gods. Why should the Realms be any different? If the Realms is going to stay the Realms, shouldn't the gods be involved? I like the idea of them coming back, but having the dead ones come back only to have them less involved sounds kind of contradictory to me. If Ao wants to put them in their place, fine, but this doesn't mean they need to be less involved. It just means their portfolios and roles are more defined and they can't mess around as much. This probably includes mortals, but the Chosen have played an important role in the past, so why stop now? And not having mortals be pawns is fine, but it doesn't have to mean the gods have to be less relevant, as I have stated before.
Also, as I have said before, how can the role of the gods be up to us if we can't do/know anything until the novels and sourcebooks are out? It's not like we can say oh, I choose this god to have this portfolio and do this" "if we do not have access to the novels or sourcebooks.
bolding by me
Actually you can (and should if you feel "your realms" needs that)do that.....it's just the way Ed intended the entire realms to work.....take what there and make changes to suit your game...or better yet , take inspiration from realmslore and create things all your own. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
|
Edited by - The Red Walker on 05 Sep 2012 13:51:21 |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 14:55:12
|
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I like reading novels about the gods too. I mean, maybe this is a bad analogy, but mythology is full of the stories about gods. Why should the Realms be any different? If the Realms is going to stay the Realms, shouldn't the gods be involved? I like the idea of them coming back, but having the dead ones come back only to have them less involved sounds kind of contradictory to me.
What I'm betting happens is this... all the gods are back... and its a war for worshippers. So, Myrkul, Velsharoon, Kiaransalee, Orcus, Set, Mellifleur (liches), Thasmudyan (baatezu lord with a cult on the isle of the necromancer kings in Zakhara), Yurtrus (orcs) and other deities may all be fighting over death worshippers. They'll use whichever one they want for an adventure module or story, and because no one has absolute control of a portfolio, if they decide to kill one off its not a major effect on the realms. Also, as a result, all gods would have less power overall. Anyway, that's just my thoughts here. The other option is that they aren't all really returned, but there's one over undeath and he's answering the alias' of the others. This might be more dangerous for them. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 15:15:33
|
To intercede briefly: to my understanding, AO created the Tablets for three reasons 1) as a divine focus as part of the Sundering, 2) as a reminder to the Gods of the divine reality he had set up, 3) as a test for the Gods (one which was ultimately failed when the Dark Three stole the tablets).
What AO had "written" on the Tablets was the divine reality of Realmspace--those were the gods that existed, and they could only be destroyed if AO himself removed their names from the tablets. They were (figuratively) written in stone.
The destruction of the Tablets had consequences that were literal (the original Sundering began to fail and the worlds began to knit back together), possible (now the gods had no safety net and could be killed for any reason by anyone with the means to do it), and metaphorical (the gods were suddenly on their own, because they had asserted that they wanted to control their own destiny). By destroying the Tablets, AO effectively said "Well, have fun guys--you made your bed, now you can sleep in it," and absconded to do his own thing. The entire purpose of the Era of Upheaval (which AO knew was inevitable) was to TEST the gods (and the Realms) in the hottest crucible imaginable, one which began relatively small (early RSEs like the Tuigan horde) and grew larger (Rogue Dragons, Last Mythal) until finally it culminated in the Spellplague (which accelerated the process of the worlds crashing together) and so much turmoil it made the fall of Netheril look like a quaint event.
Now, at the end of the Era of Upheaval, the gods have learned a lesson (or perhaps they havne't but they're out of time), and AO has to Sunder the worlds again to keep the Realms from falling apart. He is forging new Tablets of Fate so that he can do this, and begin the cycle anew with the gods.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
|
|
|
Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 17:22:35
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Not that any of that is canon - just sayin' Ao needs to be higher then DvR 25, 'cause 21 is too close to what some deities are.
I'd tend to disagree. The gap between 20 and 21 is probably vaster than the gaps between nothing (mortal), 0 (quasi-deity) and 1 (demigod) put together in terms of divine rank. Just because you have a numbered progression doesn't mean all stages of that progression have to be equal, after all. The simple fact that you're at 21 means you're playing in an entirely different ball game to the "greatest" of the 20-rank deities. Because as powerful as those gods are, they are still reliant on worship, they're still concerned (in some facet) with mortals. A 21+ overgod cares for none of that. They are beyond the ken of mortals. They answer no prayers, need nothing to maintain their power.
I'd personally put Ao at around a rank 23-24 in my own system. Higher than the entry-level overgods, but not pushing into what I think should be the "multiversal abstract" entities. However, there's no clear definition of just how high up the chain Ao is. He obviously has superiors, but all we really know is that he's an overgod, which means 21+ (so somewhere in that range... and the range could easily reach up to 100+ as well; we just don't know, and that's as it should be, I think). |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
|
|
|
Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 17:59:37
|
[/quote]
What I'm betting happens is this... all the gods are back... and its a war for worshippers.
[/quote]
This raises an interesting question-
Will the gods still be forced to rely on mortal worship or will Ao reverse his decision and return the rules to pre ToT? |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 18:23:44
|
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Not that any of that is canon - just sayin' Ao needs to be higher then DvR 25, 'cause 21 is too close to what some deities are.
I'd tend to disagree. The gap between 20 and 21 is probably vaster than the gaps between nothing (mortal), 0 (quasi-deity) and 1 (demigod) put together in terms of divine rank. Just because you have a numbered progression doesn't mean all stages of that progression have to be equal, after all. The simple fact that you're at 21 means you're playing in an entirely different ball game to the "greatest" of the 20-rank deities. Because as powerful as those gods are, they are still reliant on worship, they're still concerned (in some facet) with mortals. A 21+ overgod cares for none of that. They are beyond the ken of mortals. They answer no prayers, need nothing to maintain their power.
I'd personally put Ao at around a rank 23-24 in my own system. Higher than the entry-level overgods, but not pushing into what I think should be the "multiversal abstract" entities. However, there's no clear definition of just how high up the chain Ao is. He obviously has superiors, but all we really know is that he's an overgod, which means 21+ (so somewhere in that range... and the range could easily reach up to 100+ as well; we just don't know, and that's as it should be, I think).
Plus, at divine rank 21+ you're allowed to buy Overgod's brew without having to get other Overgods to do it for you.  |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 18:37:49
|
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Not that any of that is canon - just sayin' Ao needs to be higher then DvR 25, 'cause 21 is too close to what some deities are.
I'd tend to disagree. The gap between 20 and 21 is probably vaster than the gaps between nothing (mortal), 0 (quasi-deity) and 1 (demigod) put together in terms of divine rank. Just because you have a numbered progression doesn't mean all stages of that progression have to be equal, after all. The simple fact that you're at 21 means you're playing in an entirely different ball game to the "greatest" of the 20-rank deities. Because as powerful as those gods are, they are still reliant on worship, they're still concerned (in some facet) with mortals. A 21+ overgod cares for none of that. They are beyond the ken of mortals. They answer no prayers, need nothing to maintain their power.
I'd personally put Ao at around a rank 23-24 in my own system. Higher than the entry-level overgods, but not pushing into what I think should be the "multiversal abstract" entities. However, there's no clear definition of just how high up the chain Ao is. He obviously has superiors, but all we really know is that he's an overgod, which means 21+ (so somewhere in that range... and the range could easily reach up to 100+ as well; we just don't know, and that's as it should be, I think).
He's like the god of the gods, if not the "highest power". It's like in the Twilight Wars trilogy when Mask appeared to Cale and Cale attacked him and Mask said "Ao" as an oath, kind of like how we say "God!" if we're angry or surprised. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 18:45:50
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I was just making light of what I perceived was Dennis misunderstanding my intent.
I didn't mean Ao was using the Tablets of Fate, I meant WotC was using both of them to fix things. I switched from in-game mode to meta-gaming mode - my apologies for any confusion.
And just to set the record straight, I never liked the concept of Ao (well... maybe the concept); I thought it was little heavy-handed (what part of the ToT wasn't?) I liked that 3e and 4e completely ignored him (which is how it should be, whether he exists or not). However, I am not adverse to them using him one last time if it gives us good in-game (in-setting) reason for having many things we lost return to us.
Be it gods, realms, people, etc.
Hopefully, we will have no need to ever see him again. I am going to assume his boss is Ed, and after he repairs the damage, he will put Ed in-charge and retire. I here Florida is nice.
I'm hoping this is the case. Ao reforges the Tablets of Fate, the Gods stop being used as characters and things start to return to "normal" as they were pre-ToT. Ao recedes from the picture as the Tablets govern the gods in his stead, and he falls silent. Pretty much as good as Ao being non-existent.
I like reading novels about the gods and other powerful beings. You don't have to change the realms in any major way to write stories about them.
In 5e there is room to include all beings from the most wretched to the uber strong.
No more RSE though!
I like reading novels about the gods too. I mean, maybe this is a bad analogy, but mythology is full of the stories about gods. Why should the Realms be any different? If the Realms is going to stay the Realms, shouldn't the gods be involved? I like the idea of them coming back, but having the dead ones come back only to have them less involved sounds kind of contradictory to me. If Ao wants to put them in their place, fine, but this doesn't mean they need to be less involved. It just means their portfolios and roles are more defined and they can't mess around as much. This probably includes mortals, but the Chosen have played an important role in the past, so why stop now? And not having mortals be pawns is fine, but it doesn't have to mean the gods have to be less relevant, as I have stated before.
Also, as I have said before, how can the role of the gods be up to us if we can't do/know anything until the novels and sourcebooks are out? It's not like we can say oh, I choose this god to have this portfolio and do this" "if we do not have access to the novels or sourcebooks.
bolding by me
Actually you can (and should if you feel "your realms" needs that)do that.....it's just the way Ed intended the entire realms to work.....take what there and make changes to suit your game...or better yet , take inspiration from realmslore and create things all your own.
Granted, but if we have nothing to go by, then how we can put them in when we don't know exactly who we can choose from? However, maybe this is just a big deal to me because I don't play D&D much, though I'll RP through writing or oral storytelling with my friends. I mostly read the novels, so it matters to me which ones are there and which ones aren't *shrugs* I've taken comfort when my favorite characters die in knowing their souls have a chance to go. It's like what I've been saying about Vhaeraun and Eilistraee: if their followers start worshipping them again, but it turns out they aren't there, then the souls are still going to Lolth. If the gods are going to have a less revalant role in 5e, well okay, but I'd like to know which ones are actually around, for the sake of the novels if nothing else. ^^; |
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 19:07:32
|
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
What I'm betting happens is this... all the gods are back... and its a war for worshippers.
[/quote]
This raises an interesting question-
Will the gods still be forced to rely on mortal worship or will Ao reverse his decision and return the rules to pre ToT?
[/quote]
Yeah, if they're literally going to bring back all the gods, then I would hope that they do keep this piece. Of course, this would make it possible to make them non-divine by simply killing their cult, and in the case of some of the example deities above... that might be really easy (for example, Thasmudyan). It wouldn't mean they'd die, just become non-divine. They could still be extremely powerful foes that PC's might then have to address (or might come hunting them in revenge).
In doing this, a god doesn't need to fight over what portfolios they control though. Shar could just send a divine vision to her clerics that she now is a goddess of undeath, and boom, she's got the portfolio. Of course, this may cheese off some of her followers if they don't like hanging out with undead. It would also mean that portfolios don't mean anything anymore.
If, however, they stick to the "one person in the pantheon has X portfolio" and state that they're all available, then it has to be that there is only one deity aliasing a bunch of names, and they never really tell us which one it really is.
Or, of course, it could be that someone made a comment and its been taken too literally, and they aren't going to bring ALL of the gods back. For instance... Karsus, is he coming back? What about Tyche? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3823 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 19:13:22
|
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
[...]
Or, of course, it could be that someone made a comment and its been taken too literally, and they aren't going to bring ALL of the gods back. For instance... Karsus, is he coming back? What about Tyche?
[...]
I guess this is the most probable alternative.
|
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36982 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 20:13:45
|
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Or, of course, it could be that someone made a comment and its been taken too literally, and they aren't going to bring ALL of the gods back. For instance... Karsus, is he coming back? What about Tyche?
Or Murdane, or Valigan Thirdborn, or Moander, or Ibrandul, or the Simbul (the one the Chosen takes her name from), or the Seven Lost Gods, or etc...
I'm personally assuming that what they meant was the drow pantheon and anyone purged/ignored/Exarch'ed/aspect'ed/whatever when 4E was inflicted on us.
It could get really awkward to have Bhaal and Myrkul come back... I really hope they don't! I didn't care for Bhaal, I like Myrkul as an artifact, and I think Kelemvor is a good choice for the god of the dead. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 20:56:46
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Or, of course, it could be that someone made a comment and its been taken too literally, and they aren't going to bring ALL of the gods back. For instance... Karsus, is he coming back? What about Tyche?
Or Murdane, or Valigan Thirdborn, or Moander, or Ibrandul, or the Simbul (the one the Chosen takes her name from), or the Seven Lost Gods, or etc...
I'm personally assuming that what they meant was the drow pantheon and anyone purged/ignored/Exarch'ed/aspect'ed/whatever when 4E was inflicted on us.
It could get really awkward to have Bhaal and Myrkul come back... I really hope they don't! I didn't care for Bhaal, I like Myrkul as an artifact, and I think Kelemvor is a good choice for the god of the dead.
Yeah, I'd prefer to see Bhaal and Myrkul out still, and Velsharoon back. Hell, I'd love to see Velsharoon back with a new portfolio as well (give the man conjuration too... let him become the deity who controls devils..... and let him have acquired it by pulling Azuth forth from Asmodeus somehow (even better if it involved working with Gargauth... as that'd be a sweet smack from Gargauth to Asmodeus) ). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 21:48:54
|
Do we need to define Tyche? If people worship her, and are getting spells, whats the problem? it doesn't mean Beshaba and Tymora don't exist. Think of it the way the triad works, or Angharradh.
When I need to put some sort of rules framework around this, I assume that a single avatar of each of the gods involved meld-together to form these beings. Its semi-permanent, meaning that deity can 'pull out their share' whenever they want. However, the benefits usually out-weigh the negatives (for instance, Angharradh might be how Akadi is able to deliver spells to worshipers - through the combined power of her triad form). Of course, none of this should really come into play unless a DM wants it to.
Heck, even most heresies might have a real ubertar (conjoined avatar) to service them. I'd hate to run into Sharlolth in some back-alley.
Seriously, though I do think it works something like this, its a LOT more complicated, and not something worth writing rules over (because it should almost never come up). I picture our rules about avatars being very basic - that those are just the most common types. I think that avatars can be split, and re-split, or conjoined, to make less or more powerful versions. In that case, Angharradh is really 1/3 an Akadi avatar, 1/3 a Hanali/sune avatar, and 1/3 a Sehanine/Selune avatar (making one whole, 'normal' powered avatar). On the other hand, if need be, those three goddess can part with more power (use full avatars) and it would be a triple (normal) powered avatar.
So our rules concerning the gods barely touches the tip of the iceberg, but creating further rules just backs writers and DMs into corners. We needs some rules, but there are exceptions to all rules, which is how we can derive our variations (rather then create a nigh-useless encyclopedia of 'godly relationships'). The DvR system created in 3e was good start, but its really just a rule of thumb. Deities should theoretically be able to be divided into 'power points' - that each tiny scrap of their power is able to be separated from themselves for various jobs. This concept is too arbitrary to wrap rules around - that each manifestation of a deity can get more powered added to it if need be, or reigned-in as need be, on the fly, on a case-by-case basis. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 05 Sep 2012 22:20:43 |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
The Nature of the Tablets of Fate
