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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 00:53:45
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What types of social systems are a good fit for predominently Chaotic aligned races?
If I want to roleplay for example a Rashemi chaotic barbarian, how would he view the traditions inherent to the Magocratic society he lives in? I'd imagine he wouldn't even notice most of the protocol thats cultivated around the ruling mage powers. But would he be considered to be 'acting lawful' if he strongly chose to side with the current Iron Lord or a particular Hathran and fight in their honor?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36982 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 05:10:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
What types of social systems are a good fit for predominently Chaotic aligned races?
If I want to roleplay for example a Rashemi chaotic barbarian, how would he view the traditions inherent to the Magocratic society he lives in? I'd imagine he wouldn't even notice most of the protocol thats cultivated around the ruling mage powers. But would he be considered to be 'acting lawful' if he strongly chose to side with the current Iron Lord or a particular Hathran and fight in their honor?
Two things to keep in mind:
Alignment is a guideline, not a straitjacket. A barbarian can act in a lawful manner, every now and again, without it being a big deal or being some sort of alignment violation.
A chaotic alignment doesn't mean that all laws, traditions, and social structures are to be ignored. Chaotic types are mostly concerned with the individual -- they place the individual above the group.
So there's no reason your barbarian can't act to support his ruling Lord or anyone else he chooses to support. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 12:32:43
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He would view the Hathran as the fittest to lead, that they have to prove their worth to the society once in a while, sort of how it works with the Abyssal lords
As for other chaotic races, I guess some versions of libertarianism, anarcho-capitalism, discordianism ... |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 16:46:43
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Well, lets have a indepth look at the Hathran - Rashemi berserker relation shall we? I think the metaphysical philosophy of Hegel fits well for this example.
On the personal level, a savage rashemi could regard his liberty as the ability to freely express personal emotions, never repressing any thoughts, feelings or tendencies to act. The Hathran has edicted certain laws, and the rashemi follows them, restraining some of his freedoms, to not be considered a threat to his direct surroundings and support community. So finally, a rashemi peasant can enjoy certain freedoms far beyond the liberties a savage rashemi could think of (such as in the form of art, religion and freedom of thought/philosophy). In Hegelianism philosophy these three stages of freedom are called liberty in itself, liberty out of itself, and liberty in and for itself.
So the pursuit of spreading freedom of the individual 'should' encourage a good deal of rules in a Hegelianism philosophy, to allow for greater freedom of his fellows. In essence the rashemi barbarian has to annihilate (some of) his personal freedoms, working against his values, to ensure his fellows can enjoy a richer, more complete freedom (in the future).
I need to look into historical examples of anarchism, discordianism, libertarianism to apply to this thought experiment further.
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 17:43:14
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Back again! 
Pluralism sounds like another philosophy that can fit into D&D's chaotic races' governmental systems. Pluralism would encourage multiple power groups to have to compete for political power, so to encourage competition of interests from varying groups and ensure relative equality. This reminds me a bit of the decidedly machivellian drow social system in Menzoberranzan, where the different houses compete amongst themselves for the ultimate power- the position of First House.
Discordianism, the mockery governmental philosophy that emphasizes the interrelation between order and disorder. The more one tries to impose order on a situation, the more likely the situation will escalate into chaos. It is a bit like taoism that states: "the more laws and orders are written, the more thieves there are". I could see Murghom, the monster state, going largely by this 'laissez-faire' political structure. Certainly some people in Sembia would be discordianistic in practice, while formally declaring to support the current autocrat.
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 23:20:57
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Nice examples here folks; I would like to add two more.
ploutos, meaning "wealth" and kratos, meaning "power, dominion, rule"
The term plutocracy is generally used to describe these two distinct concepts: one of a historical nature and one of a modern political nature. The former indicates the political control of the state by an oligarchy of the wealthy. Examples of such plutocracies include the Roman Republic, some city-states in Ancient Greece, the civilization of Carthage, the Italian city-states/merchant republics of Venice, Florence, Genoa, and pre-World War II Empire of Japan. I know that Water Deep had this form of government in the past, and wouldn’t be surprised if any of the other nations along the sword coast had it as well.
An evæt, is the general form of classification for tribal, or clan system of government. Debate is ungoing as to what extent this overall system is more, or less than that of state-based governmental systems. It should be noted, that these systems of government are often more meritocracies, than most other systems; as reputation and ability more often than not, determines who leads, and the length they remain in said position.
This is to an extent orkish society, heavily mixed in with just about every overly exaggerated norce stereotype one can think of. Even the one’s that were entirely inaccurate.
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We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
577 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 23:56:54
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| The Drow are the best in-game analogy I could draw. There is a thin veneer of respectability and propriety that governs social interactions that is frequently undermined by personal ambitions and disregard for civil law (unless you get caught). |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 00:43:47
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Aye. Drow are a fascinating case of a chaotic race governed by a religious autocracy that does its 'elections' in a pluralistic house system. It has many taboos and traditions atypical for chaotic behaviour, and I think that was caused by the government imposed by Lolth. She knew the politcal struggle would cause constant internal chaos amongst the drow.
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Another example that could work for D&D's chaotic societies is a libertarian minarchy, i.e. a race governed by a select minimal few whose only duty is protection from aggresion, theft and fraud. I see most elf, and some halfling and gnome societies going for such systems, as this is a governmental system that needs very few resources to function and encourages localisation of civil laws. I see the smaller and physically weaker races having more difficulty in coaxing resources from the land through menial labor, so those few resources that are available should be spend wisely; a cheap governing body would benefit the most people in such cases.
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 00:54:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Aye. Drow are a fascinating case of a chaotic race governed by a religious autocracy that does its 'elections' in a pluralistic house system. It has many taboos and traditions atypical for chaotic behaviour, and I think that was caused by the government imposed by Lolth. She knew the politcal struggle would cause constant internal chaos amongst the drow.
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Another example that could work for D&D's chaotic societies is a libertarian minarchy, i.e. a race governed by a select minimal few whose only duty is protection from aggresion, theft and fraud. I see most elf, and some halfling and gnome societies going for such systems, as this is a governmental system that needs very few resources to function and encourages localisation of civil laws. I see the smaller and physically weaker races having more difficulty in coaxing resources from the land through menial labor, so those few resources that are available should be spend wisely; a cheap governing body would benefit the most people in such cases.
Personally, given what I’ve read about the dark elves. It’s very, very hard to think of them as chaotic evil, although personally I’ve never like this system of categorization. They have a rigid caste system; religious rule structure that everyone is supposed to follow, not doing so publically is a cuase for death; they have a staggering degree of social norms and customs based around both sex-linked and social status lines. Even rules for when typical norms are not in play. To me, they seem ffar to structured to be chaotic. That’s probably just me though, orcs reflect the stereotype with far more brutal and more well defined lines.
Personally, given the complexity of civilizations categorizing them as X is not the best idea. Perhaps the dark elves vary along the evil access, with some deeps into neutral eve, depending on the social issues being observed. Social behavior is a complex system, a set of behaviors, as fluid as personality. Let me stop, I could easily go on and well beyond the purpose of this thread.
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We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 01:26:20
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The alignment system is a bit too flawed for this, but it can guide this discussion to an admirable end. For example orcs indeed show a very simple might makes right philosophy. But some philosophers would argue that the thought that a weak king should be removed is a rational duty of the people. People should always have Magna Carta, the right to remove power for justices sake. A proper orc king respects this rule, as (most of the times) the only civil law in effect is the right of the strong.
Eventually a kingdom could form an orc society, but it's more likely to tear itself apart well before the regional scale. The kingdom of many arrows might be an example where the 'Right of the Strong' is codified so intricately that it turns into a lawful society. |
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Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 02:02:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
The alignment system is a bit too flawed for this, but it can guide this discussion to an admirable end. For example orcs indeed show a very simple might makes right philosophy. But some philosophers would argue that the thought that a weak king should be removed is a rational duty of the people. People should always have Magna Carta, the right to remove power for justices sake. A proper orc king respects this rule, as (most of the times) the only civil law in effect is the right of the strong.
Eventually a kingdom could form an orc society, but it's more likely to tear itself apart well before the regional scale. The kingdom of many arrows might be an example where the 'Right of the Strong' is codified so intricately that it turns into a lawful society.
There's another issue there, what if your king is devinely mandated, devinely impowered, and possibly joined with the Gods. Every word from your king's mouth is possibly devine. That king can then begin to alter what the concepts of strength is, what war is, what struggle is. in the case of orc society; while there is a strong individual bent, there is an equally strong clan bent as well. Thus, within the heart of every orc there is the pull of individual and the pull of the clan. To this add the concept of the state, what is good for Orc kind. This is why characterizing an individual as a thing in all cases is a good idea. there are deverse social pulls working on an individual at all times, and I just don't feel that the current system resolves such fludity of organic behavior.
In my last gaming group, we used a rating system, which could change to a limited extent depending on the social experience. the anckers were law/chaos good/evil with seven points in between. Within this there were leanings. For instance, someone could be very close to law and neutral on the G/E, but have evil leanings, such as it went to torcher. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2513 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 12:54:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
What types of social systems are a good fit for predominently Chaotic aligned races?
If I want to roleplay for example a Rashemi chaotic barbarian, how would he view the traditions inherent to the Magocratic society he lives in? I'd imagine he wouldn't even notice most of the protocol thats cultivated around the ruling mage powers. But would he be considered to be 'acting lawful' if he strongly chose to side with the current Iron Lord or a particular Hathran and fight in their honor?
How would you answer the same question applied to e.g. Uthgardt barbarians? They're very traditional, too.
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
The alignment system is a bit too flawed for this,
Alignment, as Wooly Rupert already pointed out, have its place, but never was seriously supposed to do this.
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
but it can guide this discussion to an admirable end. For example orcs indeed show a very simple might makes right philosophy. But some philosophers would argue that the thought that a weak king should be removed is a rational duty of the people. People should always have Magna Carta, the right to remove power for justices sake. A proper orc king respects this rule, as (most of the times) the only civil law in effect is the right of the strong.
Drow could say the same. In the sense that since no one can stand against a whole city of them alone, in the end "cat chess" is always played between different factions and power groups. If someone holds the power, it's because there's enough of supporters and the rest don't think a change would be worth the risk (and to get something they really want they normally are eager to take risk). |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 15:16:58
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The Uthgardt are in a position where they are more limited, both by the hostile environments they live in and the scale upon which they organize themselves. Uthgardt tribal life is one of low wealth, resources and education compared to the Rashemi. They might hear about the great deeds their ancestors (or their spirits) performed, and srtive for the same glory, but most are quite busy just surviving the dangers of the Icewind Dale or the Silvermarches Coldwood habitat.
I think in the Uthgradt mindset the 'liberty in itself' is valued most, just because the autonomy of the individual is valued highly, and the 'liberty out of itself' rarely reaches beyond the local tribe, just as the 'liberty in and for itself' can only be enjoyed when one stays in the tribe. So being respected for expressing ones discomfort is expected, but tempered with the various taboos and traditions of the tribe (originating from his ancestors' common sense and experiences), and limited to the known freedoms the particular Uthgardt Totem clerics typically allow to flourish (art in the form of song and dance, body decorations, education of nature lore).
The harsh forces working against a Uthgardt tribe will give cause to specialisation within it, and personal relations will stratify amongst those lines. The mutual beneficial relationships between each tribe member will dictate the respect they deserve, leading to them getting more heard /getting more support when an important decision needs to be made. A small scale meritocracy, a governing body of the 'best of the tribe' will eventually form naturally from the intertribal relations. Most Uthgardt tribes would have eventualy grown into assigning a tribal chief /despot that calls the shots.
However every shaman knows a close knit tribe is better equiped to combat the threats they face then one thats divided, and will try to make sure the current chief holds it position securely by introducing tribal customs (local civic law disguised as either taboos, religion or tradition). Eventually those religious groups could concievably hold so much control over the liberties of the Uthgardt, that they can be considered the true governing system (especially if the totemic clerics mamanged to work together).
So in a nutshell the Uthgardt are typically a meritocratic monarchy but can occasionally be consided a tribal theocracy. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 03:07:00
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I wouldn't exactly dub the Rashemi berserkers as chaotic. They diligently follow the hathrans. Their 'rage' is a gift from the spirits, a weapon to protect their land; it's not a permanent state. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 22:05:52
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Agreed. But I think you read a bit too much into my previous statements. I didn't intend to categorize all Rashemi berserkers as chaotic. I just wanted to explore a specific chaotic individual living among the Rashemi, and examine how he could or would motivate himself living in a magocracy.
I love reading and learning about fantasy societies cultural solutions to governing. Dennis, do you know of any example from beyond the Realms that would fit a chaotic magocracy? Or other interesting ways of governing or traditions in mage ruled countries? |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 23:02:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Agreed. But I think you read a bit too much into my previous statements. I didn't intend to categorize all Rashemi berserkers as chaotic. I just wanted to explore a specific chaotic individual living among the Rashemi, and examine how he could or would motivate himself living in a magocracy.
I love reading and learning about fantasy societies cultural solutions to governing. Dennis, do you know of any example from beyond the Realms that would fit a chaotic magocracy? Or other interesting ways of governing or traditions in mage ruled countries?
Well, just of the top of my head, as my library is scattered across dozens of still unemptied boxes, I can think of the Republic of Thyden, which was a representative democracy intermixed with a magocracy element. The government was split up into local and national councils: individuals first had to pass civil service exams, which would determine the general positions they could apply for, beuracrate, collector, administrator, local judge, etc; some of this positions would require candidates that past the exams to run against others that past in local elections, depending on the position; after serving as local civil servents for a couple of years, they could take additional exams and strive for a set number of seats at the state level. This is where the mages come in. Sixty percent of all the seats aat this level belong to the mages, and all but three seats related to civil defense belonged to the mages. While the Council could vote on declaring war, once war was declared, or in the case of an attack, the civil defense group was free to do what it saw fit to deal with the problem. The Council was not allowed to interfere for the most part. Mages being selected for the post went through intense screening and often had demonstrated significant civil service prior. Where things got interesting, and complicated among the mages, is those with higher rank and power within their respective orders were deferred to by other members in that order, even though everyone among the council had the same level of voting power. For instance, Izah Boragram was a fifth seal holder of the Order of Heaven’s Illuminators, meaning when he said that money should be spent on repairing the roads in Delber, everyone else on the Council of that order would support the motion, even if they didn’t agree with it.
Yeah, it could get complicated quick, republics are like that.
The other that comes to mind was Syrous, which was sort of a cross between a magocracy and a military junta, in that the entire government revolved around top military and mages in control over various aspects of national politics.
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We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Tradition and social systems in chaotic cultures
