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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Jan 2013 : 16:16:17
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Am I remembering something wrong? I think when Lord Chess died he sacrificed himself in the name of Mystra (at the end of the Avatar series). Thats not correct? Its been years since I read those novels. Something about candles... {scratches head} IIRC, he had kept his devotion to her hidden for years (which Leira probably helped with).
This tells me A) that nearly everyone worships all the gods to some degree, and B) that it is entirely possible to keep such things secret from your own god (of choice). Deities do not have the time or inclination to keep track of every last worshiper - thats what their church is for (unless you are a paranoid git like Cyric, which is probably why he is nuts - his mind is in so many places at once).
In fact, most evil gods are probably well-aware of this built-in duplicity of their faithful. Their followers wouldn't really be 'evil' if they were honest, would they? How chaotic would Drow be if they actually listened to every last tenet of Lolth's priesthood? Someone (I think Jarlaxle) even pointed out that Drizzt might actually be one of Lolth's favorites: He went to the surface, is well-respected (an often in-charge), and kills stuff constantly. Sounds like Lolths plan from the beginning. Thanks to him, folks (including other elves!) are now excepting other drow on the surface world. Talk about the perfect setup.
Gods are smarter then we give them credit for - way smarter then us as players/DMs/fans. We only see whats in front of our eyes; they see a thousand different outcomes, like a great Chess game. What seems like an odd thing for a deity to do on the surface (like allow some of their faithful to 'backslide') could mean they will reaper greater rewards in the long run. They see 'the big picture' (except for Cyric... he's a nub). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Jan 2013 16:19:44 |
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Neil
Learned Scribe
Canada
107 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2013 : 16:45:20
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| Yeah, I think Chess had a deathbed confession, as Cyric had told him that he had killed Leira. He therefore needed a new faith to rescue him from an afterlife of Cyric, which would be fairly intolerable. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2013 : 19:26:46
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Iwould imagien there would be difference between favored by lolth and a chosen by lolth.
Drizzt might actually be and very well mightbr and might not be favored by lolth as much as he might be wanted dead but tolerated by lolth and her having long term scheme about him..... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2013 : 02:17:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Lord Bane you can't just make things up and expect people to take you seriously...
Good thing i do not take your posts sometimes serious aswell then 
Your posts about Bane's worship are things you made up that you did not even try to substantiate with evidence from realms lore of any kind. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Neil
Learned Scribe
Canada
107 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2013 : 03:09:01
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| Yeah, I think we all know that the inhabitants of Zhentil Keep followed a variety of faiths. I just don't agree with Lord Bane's take on the Banite faith's attitude vis-a-vis the other gods. |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2013 : 10:05:04
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Your perfectly fine to disagree with me on it Neil, after all we are all entiteled to our opinions.  |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2480 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2013 : 15:02:57
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Almost all of the books about drow are set in Menzoberranzan which is only one smaller than average city. Cities like Sshamath, Eryndlyn, and Llurth Dreier are implied to be more multi-religious and so presumably many other cities are, too.
Llurth Dreier is an ex-Lolthite city overrun by Ghanadaur. Sshamath is an ex-Lolthite city overrun by wizards, so the religion doesn't matter much. quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Menzoberranzan probably has a greater degree of clerical involvement than most drow communities.
It's the chosen sacred city of Spider Queen, so it figures the place got to be tougher on everyone else. In less frenzied communities Lolthites may allow male underpriests and/or worship of Selvetarm - always checking that these are loyal to them as a whole, of course, but that's normal, they don't trust each other either. 
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
it says the ruling Lolth worshiping nobility were shocked how many people worshiped Kiaransalee when their civil war started which implies Drow worship other deities in secret a great deal.
Of course. Llurth Dreier was overrun in a civil war after matrons sat on their butts for too long. There's a lot of references to Vhaerunites even in Menzoberranzan - these guys are harder to fully exterminate than cockroaches. 
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I believe it's been estimated that a little over 66% follow Lolth in FR, leaving only the other 1/3 to follow anyone else- because we already know that Lolth tolerates NO worship of other deities! While it is mainly clergy that are the "fanatics", most drow also live in houses ruled by those same clergy, who would certainly not allow their households to worship anyone else, lest they fall from Lolth's favor.
Ah, not so easy. You're interpreting the number as exclusive, but is it? There are always 3 different numbers: how many claim to worship, how many worship, how many worship exclusively. I.e. from Eilistraee's 22% total and 10-12% exclusive, if you count into 1/3 only the latter, where you put the rest?
And what "tolerates no worship" practically means? The high-ups of main four's theocracies view worshippers of the other three as enemies, but that's not the same as truly exclusive worship. Again, if a whole House of Vhaerunites is wiped out, this means it existed like this for some time, and another may exist. The issue of "falling from Lolth's favor" applies only to those having it in the first place, no? Priestesses have to be dedicated, but it's the usual setup, and they are a minority even in Menzo.
It's not like in a Lolthite city a matron would lose a guard just because she knows he mentioned Selvetarm in the heat of battle, or House wizard who invoked Mystra (or Elemental lord of choice if elementalist). Such things got to happen, it's a foregone conclusion, so why ever bother as long as no one tries to formally preach, open a temple or something? Now look away from the nobles to commoners, and what can go on there?
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
That was part of the reason Drizzt was forced to leave Menzo, in fact- because his mother and sister scried on him and Zaknafein discussing their feelings about Lolth- which was considered heresy, and punishable by death! That alone shows that those who are even SUSPECTED of heresy are well-watched.
Let's also remember that these two were not exactly low profile: the weapon master and secondboy of a major noble House, in Menzo at that. And were watched by their House's high-ups who had scrying measures and literally nothing better to do with their time than playing diligent fanatics.
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
For most, they are simply to indoctrinated with the "Lolth is all" mentaility to even question that they COULD worship anyone else. Even Liriel was shocked by the very notion of doing such. And she was raised as a wizard FIRST.
...also in two major Houses of Menzo?
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
If we were to take Greenwood's statements literally, then less than half of all drow are Lolthites
The part that needs to be taken literally is that total worship in the example is twice as much as exclusive worship. Trying to pack exclusive worship without seams, you leave no place for this shared part, of course it makes no sense. Now, if you ask "how many of them are priesthood and fanatics?" that will be it. I'd expect these numbers specifically in Eilistraee's case to be closer than with others - if they take her message seriously, they'll drop everything and start "buttnekkid moondance" or go subvert other drow. As they are interested in the surface, nonexclusive part got to include magic-related gods, Shaundakul, Waukeen if they are merchants, etc.
Now, a "non-exclusive" Vhaerunite? That's just a commoner thief or grumpy male (not necessarily noble), and they don't deal with "let's go to surface right now and hug fairy elves" issues, only their immediate interests. How many of these? Who knows, but you can't swing a snake-whip on a street without hitting a commoner or a House's soldier who "heard a rumour once..." even in Menzo, right? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2013 : 15:15:55
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Actually, its the 'Chosen sacred City' of R.A. Salvatore, because according to the canon, Guallidurth is supposed to be her 'holy city'.
Menzoberranzan, for all its much-vaunted publication, is a VERY minor drow city, at best. They are self-important, but in the greater scheme of things they are quite insignificant. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36905 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2013 : 16:34:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Actually, its the 'Chosen sacred City' of R.A. Salvatore, because according to the canon, Guallidurth is supposed to be her 'holy city'.
Menzoberranzan, for all its much-vaunted publication, is a VERY minor drow city, at best. They are self-important, but in the greater scheme of things they are quite insignificant.
I believe this was changed with 4E. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2013 : 19:38:41
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| This is Lolth we're talking about. Which city is her favorite probably changes week to week. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2013 : 20:46:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Actually, its the 'Chosen sacred City' of R.A. Salvatore, because according to the canon, Guallidurth is supposed to be her 'holy city'.
Menzoberranzan, for all its much-vaunted publication, is a VERY minor drow city, at best. They are self-important, but in the greater scheme of things they are quite insignificant.
I believe this was changed with 4E.
*meh*
{not directed at you, Wooly} |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2013 : 01:48:43
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TBeholder- the point I was making that in nearly all the published lore. Lolth does NOT tolerate disobedience from her followers- in fact. Her dogma even states specifically "Convert or destroy nonbeliever drow. Weed out the weak and the rebellious. Destroy impugners of the faith. Sacrifice... those who ignore the commands of Lolth or her clerics. Raise children TO PRAISE AND FEAR(emphasis mine) Lolth;... Questioning Lolth's motives or wisdom IS A SIN(emphasis mine), as is... ignoring Lolth's commands for the sake of a lover." (Faiths and Pantheons)
F&P goes on to state that "her clergy are the rulers, judges, juries, executioners, and police forces of drow society." In cities where she holds sway, she (through them) literally RULES ALL.
Demihuman Deities(2nd ed) goes even further: "The Spider Queen maintains her absolue rule over drow cities by means of her clergy, who tirelessly seek out and destroy ALL TRACES(again, emphasis is mine) of dissent, disobedience, RIVAL FAITHS(again...) or sacrilege and who ruthlessly enforce the Way of Lolth." It also says that "Males or slaves of other races who act independantly of Lolth's dictates (and those of her clerics) must be sacrificed to Lolth. Those of the faithful whose loyalty is weak must be eliminated. Children are to be raised as LOYAL WORSHIPERS(emphasis mine again) of Lolth".
From these passages we can CLEARLY see not only her stance on the subject of offering prayers to other deities, but that her entire clergy has a standing mandate to stamp them out completely! The fact that they have not yet done so is not so much a testament to the fact that her priests are lenient or lack vigilance, but the simple and obvious conclusion that those who follow other deities are just REALLY good at hiding it! However, considering the serious consequences of being found out, it's a fair assumption that most drow would not take the risk of doing so, even if they sincerely WANT to turn away from her. They are, after all, taught to FEAR her (and her clerics, of course!). In that respect, even Zak and the rebellious Spider Mage did not turn away from her faith fully, or even dare to offer prayers to other deities. Only Drizzt did that- and it earned him a death sentence from his own family!
It was pointed out that the drow named were members of noble houses. However, I'll add that in Daughter of the Drow, Liriel often hung out with several "friends" from minor houses and even commoners (The male who went fishing with her and Bythnara near the beginning of the book was a son of a wealthy commoner family.). Yet even those drow were fully faithful followers of Lolth, by all indications. And the book mentioned that House Baenre had adopted a young female from a commoner family to add to the ranks of their high priestesses. So it's not only the major houses that follow this rule, but ALL the houses that attempt to earn her favor. |
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"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2013 : 02:09:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Actually, its the 'Chosen sacred City' of R.A. Salvatore, because according to the canon, Guallidurth is supposed to be her 'holy city'.
Menzoberranzan, for all its much-vaunted publication, is a VERY minor drow city, at best. They are self-important, but in the greater scheme of things they are quite insignificant.
I believe this was changed with 4E.
*meh*
{not directed at you, Wooly}
Eh. The 4e Menzoberranzan tome established a fairly confident basis for why the city is so important [though, not the MOST important] city in Lolth's celestial crown. |
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Evil Elves or Good Drows which one is more rare?
