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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Mar 2013 : 15:34:23
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I was wondering if this idea was of interest to anyone, so I figure I send it out in the wild and see if it survives...
What if there was a sect/sects of the Eldreth Veluuthra who believed instead of killing human like vermin (while still killing Half-elven Abominations), they were to 'domesticate' humans like cattle/pets/work animals so the threat to the elves would become a defense against other enemies of the elves? Binding them with magic and breeding so they would be completely unable to disobey and/or harm the 'True People' of Faerun. To use humanity as a wall of meat, so to speak, as well do work unbecoming of an elf.
This could be expanded or even replaced by other ideas of elves enslaving/breeding other sentient races for benefits of the 'People'.
Thoughts?
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Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2013 : 16:04:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
I was wondering if this idea was of interest to anyone, so I figure I send it out in the wild and see if it survives...
What if there was a sect/sects of the Eldreth Veluuthra who believed instead of killing human like vermin (while still killing Half-elven Abominations), they were to 'domesticate' humans like cattle/pets/work animals so the threat to the elves would become a defense against other enemies of the elves? Binding them with magic and breeding so they would be completely unable to disobey and/or harm the 'True People' of Faerun. To use humanity as a wall of meat, so to speak, as well do work unbecoming of an elf.
This could be expanded or even replaced by other ideas of elves enslaving/breeding other sentient races for benefits of the 'People'.
Thoughts?
I'd say this is not their style. They view them as 'unclean' something they don't want around. Now, I DO think that they magically manipulate humans. Domination or Charm magic would be an effective tool at pushing humans back from elven lands.
Also, I'd argue that the Eldreth are NOT necessarily an evil group, though they do attract some of the more evil minded elves. The simplest argument for this is the alignment of Tordinnaar Rhaevaern (LN) who is one of their leaders. From the elven standpoint, they are simply doing what must be done to stop the over-reaching, over-breeding humans from destroying the elves and the woodlands.
Sylvan elves for example will not tolerate humans to encroach on certain areas. The punishment is death. This is not an evil act, its defensive.
This is not to say that some of them enjoy this sadisticly - they do. I'd say about 40 percent of them are not of evil alignment. And many are of lawful alignment. Perception is king in this. Those who are 'evil' would often be better described as amoral than immoral. The rest are cruel calculating xenophobic sociopaths  . Necessity makes for strange bedfellows. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2013 : 19:09:06
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I agree it's not really their style on the whole, but the "organization" is so fragmented that it's possible that a small group somewhere has given it a try.
I don't think they'd go for the cattle/work animals aspect, though. When you look at it from the EV's perspective, there really isn't anything they need the humans to work on. So instead I'd have them be raised as a sort of Janissary, elite slave soldiers fanatically loyal to the EV sect that raised them. That might be of use, if the EV could mold humans into doing the fighting for them, and that they could hide behind.
You could also give the humans a nihilistic mindset. A sort of "we're not worthy" idea, where they think their race has proven unworthy of living on Faerun and that it must therefore be removed for the good of the other races. Hey, we've had stranger cults here on Earth, and there's already a faction sort of like that in Planescape, so it's not totally unprecedented.
I could see that kind of "human molding" being really useful for a group like the EV, who has a severe manpower crunch. You could train the humans into whatever kind of fighting force you needed, whether that's a stand-up army, guerrillas, or even teams of adventurer-like special forces. It also provides a moral quandry for PC's going up against them: do they treat these humans as just another monster, or do they try and overcome a lifetime of brainwashing, while the humans try to kill them? |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Euranna
Learned Scribe
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2013 : 19:16:52
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I have to agree. If they are out to stop the overpopulating humans, then breeding them would be counter indicated.
But manipulate them, of definitely. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36909 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2013 : 19:21:38
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In general, elves don't seem interested in slaves.
But manipulating them into killing each other, or aiming humanoids at them, or even going so far as to create human-specific plagues? Oh, yeah, I see the EV being all over that.
Remember, if you want to wipe out another race and they outnumber you, force of arms won't work. Using their numbers against them is a great tactic. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2013 : 23:43:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
In general, elves don't seem interested in slaves.
But manipulating them into killing each other, or aiming humanoids at them, or even going so far as to create human-specific plagues? Oh, yeah, I see the EV being all over that.
Remember, if you want to wipe out another race and they outnumber you, force of arms won't work. Using their numbers against them is a great tactic.
I'd not be in the school of "elves don't do slaves." The dark elves did, as I imagine the elves of Aryvaandar and Silvanude would as well. I'd put that into a more case by case basis.
Elaith, would have no problem buying and selling slaves, I'd say, as long as it was profitable and secret. He is in that amoral category I mentioned before. He has his personal rule-set and if its not prohibited by those rules then its fair game, plus he basically regards his minions as slaves that get payed. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2013 : 23:44:37
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| I think a more interesting EV sect would be a group of Olin Gisir EV. They'd hunt down and kill humans who discover elven magic items / secrets or who attain too much magical power. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36909 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2013 : 00:52:20
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
In general, elves don't seem interested in slaves.
But manipulating them into killing each other, or aiming humanoids at them, or even going so far as to create human-specific plagues? Oh, yeah, I see the EV being all over that.
Remember, if you want to wipe out another race and they outnumber you, force of arms won't work. Using their numbers against them is a great tactic.
I'd not be in the school of "elves don't do slaves." The dark elves did, as I imagine the elves of Aryvaandar and Silvanude would as well. I'd put that into a more case by case basis.
Elaith, would have no problem buying and selling slaves, I'd say, as long as it was profitable and secret. He is in that amoral category I mentioned before. He has his personal rule-set and if its not prohibited by those rules then its fair game, plus he basically regards his minions as slaves that get payed.
Other than the drow, though, we don't have evidence of elves practicing any form of involuntary servitude. Even elves who hate humans haven't show a tendency to force servitude on anyone or anything. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1883 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2013 : 02:48:17
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| While I agree that having slaves isn't the general style of elven behavior, I think there is some precedent for it. During El's time in Myth Drannor he was little more than a slave to The Masked, despite being apprenticed to him (and remember that The Masked had an ulterior motive for teaching El). I see no reason why a small group of the EV can't utilize a few slaves for one purpose or another (as a means to an end). |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2013 : 06:42:10
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| Slaves would be one thing, but breeding humans would not be their thing. That would be like someone who hates cats becoming a cat lady in order to send the cats against other cats. To crazy for me, thanks. |
Edited by - The Masked Mage on 10 Mar 2013 06:43:18 |
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Jergals Spare Scythe
Acolyte
USA
23 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2013 : 21:08:00
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
In general, elves don't seem interested in slaves.
But manipulating them into killing each other, or aiming humanoids at them, or even going so far as to create human-specific plagues? Oh, yeah, I see the EV being all over that.
Remember, if you want to wipe out another race and they outnumber you, force of arms won't work. Using their numbers against them is a great tactic.
I'd not be in the school of "elves don't do slaves." The dark elves did, as I imagine the elves of Aryvaandar and Silvanude would as well. I'd put that into a more case by case basis.
I think it would provide a good balance -- Drow in the underdark keeping and breeding goblinoids, and these Elves on the surface keeping and breeding humans. Neither care about such chattel, and as others said, meat shields are always handy so the "supreme" race doesn't incur many losses. |
"Seek to bring order to the chaos of life, for in death there is finality and a fixedness of state. Be ready for death for it is at hand and uncompromising."
Excerpt from Jergal's Dogma, Faiths and Pantheons, page 99 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2482 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2013 : 11:05:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
I don't think they'd go for the cattle/work animals aspect, though. When you look at it from the EV's perspective, there really isn't anything they need the humans to work on. So instead I'd have them be raised as a sort of Janissary, elite slave soldiers fanatically loyal to the EV sect that raised them. That might be of use, if the EV could mold humans into doing the fighting for them, and that they could hide behind.
As to any openly controlled group? That's unlikely, since the moment one member of it is captured and interrogated with magic, the jig is up - and very high up there at that. EV survives by staying in the shadows, attracting attention this blatantly would only bring danger to them and their work.
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
You could also give the humans a nihilistic mindset. A sort of "we're not worthy" idea
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I think a more interesting EV sect would be a group of Olin Gisir EV. They'd hunt down and kill humans who discover elven magic items / secrets or who attain too much magical power.
Funny. I had some thoughts about how Emerald Enclave should be suspected in being EV pawns from those in the know. This updates and replaces being suspected in cooperating with Luthcheq nutcases due to proximity from those not in the know about EV.  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2013 : 12:14:15
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TBeholder: You're making the assumption that they're being openly controlled. The EV doesn't do anything in the open. I think they'd be much more likely to use shapeshifting magic to appear as humans and become something of a cult leader. They're very aware of mind reading magics, so they'd take precautions.
And that's a really evil thought about the Emerald Enclave. I like it. And one of their senior members is an elf... |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12087 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2013 : 22:53:17
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| Here's where I see this.... can I see elves enslaving humans in another world? Yes. Can I see it in Faerun? Yes, down in Dambrath with the Crintri nobles enslaving humans. Can I see it anywhere else in Faerun where the Eldreth Veluuthra actually are? This is a much harder question. Where the Eldreth Veluuthra are, generally they are amongst other elves that would not put up with this IF IT WERE KNOWN. Now, if there are Eldreth Veluuthra amongst the Crintri (and there may be), then yeah, its possible. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2013 : 23:14:53
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On thing I make in the original post is the idea this could be a sect of the normal Eldrath Veluuthra. Like the difference between Masons and Clandestine Masons, it is possible latter to be members of the former larger group.
Remember they operate in cells. One cell might think to kill with plague, another with natural disasters, a third with orcs and goblinoids. The Fourth.. might go with enslaving and breeding humans as meat shields.
This also gives you the Enslaving Heretics of the EV versus the Heads-in-the-sand keepers of the status quo. Which can form more adventures for a campaign. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2013 : 00:16:53
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Here's where I see this.... can I see elves enslaving humans in another world? Yes. Can I see it in Faerun? Yes, down in Dambrath with the Crintri nobles enslaving humans. Can I see it anywhere else in Faerun where the Eldreth Veluuthra actually are? This is a much harder question. Where the Eldreth Veluuthra are, generally they are amongst other elves that would not put up with this IF IT WERE KNOWN. Now, if there are Eldreth Veluuthra amongst the Crintri (and there may be), then yeah, its possible.
The Crintri are not elves. They are half elves. Half drow at that. The EV would not be amongst them. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2013 : 02:32:07
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Here's where I see this.... can I see elves enslaving humans in another world? Yes. Can I see it in Faerun? Yes, down in Dambrath with the Crintri nobles enslaving humans. Can I see it anywhere else in Faerun where the Eldreth Veluuthra actually are? This is a much harder question. Where the Eldreth Veluuthra are, generally they are amongst other elves that would not put up with this IF IT WERE KNOWN. Now, if there are Eldreth Veluuthra amongst the Crintri (and there may be), then yeah, its possible.
The Crintri are not elves. They are half elves. Half drow at that. The EV would not be amongst them.
Indeed. In Elaine Cunningham's own words, the Crinti "share a distinctive set of characteristics that blend the drow, half-elf (mostly of moon elf stock), and human barbarian." |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12087 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2013 : 16:32:56
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Here's where I see this.... can I see elves enslaving humans in another world? Yes. Can I see it in Faerun? Yes, down in Dambrath with the Crintri nobles enslaving humans. Can I see it anywhere else in Faerun where the Eldreth Veluuthra actually are? This is a much harder question. Where the Eldreth Veluuthra are, generally they are amongst other elves that would not put up with this IF IT WERE KNOWN. Now, if there are Eldreth Veluuthra amongst the Crintri (and there may be), then yeah, its possible.
The Crintri are not elves. They are half elves. Half drow at that. The EV would not be amongst them.
Yeah, the only way I see EV amongst them would be that they seem to favor their elven heritage and are "trying" to breed back true to a degree (its not an active "goal" so much as a preferred breeding measure). So, there might be some EV group (say amongst the nearby wood elves) who might be trying to fulfill that goal of breeding the Crintri back to being elven blooded (assuming that they can swallow that several generations of pure elven breeding can return them to elven blood), while at the same time ruling over the humans. Granted, its a stretch, but its the closest I can see in the realms. This brand of Crintri would favor breeding with wood elf stock and not drow stock, unlike most of the Crintri, so they would be a subset of the Crintri. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2482 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2013 : 18:00:52
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Eh, no. EV may occasionally deal with the drow (not of the spider-loving sort, anyway), but they don't put up with half-blooded abominations just like that.  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2013 : 01:16:13
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Here's where I see this.... can I see elves enslaving humans in another world? Yes. Can I see it in Faerun? Yes, down in Dambrath with the Crintri nobles enslaving humans. Can I see it anywhere else in Faerun where the Eldreth Veluuthra actually are? This is a much harder question. Where the Eldreth Veluuthra are, generally they are amongst other elves that would not put up with this IF IT WERE KNOWN. Now, if there are Eldreth Veluuthra amongst the Crintri (and there may be), then yeah, its possible.
The Crintri are not elves. They are half elves. Half drow at that. The EV would not be amongst them.
Yeah, the only way I see EV amongst them would be that they seem to favor their elven heritage and are "trying" to breed back true to a degree (its not an active "goal" so much as a preferred breeding measure). So, there might be some EV group (say amongst the nearby wood elves) who might be trying to fulfill that goal of breeding the Crintri back to being elven blooded (assuming that they can swallow that several generations of pure elven breeding can return them to elven blood), while at the same time ruling over the humans. Granted, its a stretch, but its the closest I can see in the realms. This brand of Crintri would favor breeding with wood elf stock and not drow stock, unlike most of the Crintri, so they would be a subset of the Crintri.
Are you seeing this EV group as some possible splinter-group of the original EV? Because I could see this becoming the philosophy of a small number of EV who are perhaps desperate enough to increase their numbers to the point where they'd accept any crinti. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2013 : 14:12:16
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Update on regular elves and slaves. I was rereading the start of El's Forgotten Realms, and it says on page 12-13: "The drow and certain elder sun and moon elven nobility (House Starym, for instance) are hauty esthetes who... and humans, orcs, and corssbreeds as children so far beneath elves in their intelligence and cutural development that they are dismissed as little better than animals able to follow instructions. This makes those latter races ideal - in their eyes - slaves who can be collected, bred for traits, experimented upon with herbs, poisons, maigc, and surgeries, and - for entertainment and betting purposes - hunted or used in races, fights, and other sporting contests."
So, um, looks like the EV having human slaves is entirely plausible. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36909 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2013 : 17:04:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Update on regular elves and slaves. I was rereading the start of El's Forgotten Realms, and it says on page 12-13: "The drow and certain elder sun and moon elven nobility (House Starym, for instance) are hauty esthetes who... and humans, orcs, and corssbreeds as children so far beneath elves in their intelligence and cutural development that they are dismissed as little better than animals able to follow instructions. This makes those latter races ideal - in their eyes - slaves who can be collected, bred for traits, experimented upon with herbs, poisons, maigc, and surgeries, and - for entertainment and betting purposes - hunted or used in races, fights, and other sporting contests."
So, um, looks like the EV having human slaves is entirely plausible.
I stand corrected. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2013 : 14:46:45
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I'd say that would make elves other than the EV having slaves entirely plausible. :)... get ready for my analogy :P
I hate cats. They are the most useless form of life imaginable. Lazy, arrogant, smelly, and they are everywhere. Kill em all I say. While I see no moral reason why having a pet/servant cat, there is no f-in way you'll ever catch me owning one. You might catch me kicking one for spite, but that's understandable I'd say.
The same holds true for EV and humans :D
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Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2013 : 16:13:56
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| Elven imperialistic navy is also known for arrogance. |
z455t |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2013 : 19:13:56
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| Imperial, as in serving an empire. Not imperialistic, meaning conquering other territories as colonies. They may be arrogant, but that's a long way from being evil, or be slave-holders. There's no evidence in SJ, IIRC, that they have slaves. They're much more of the "officious do-gooder." |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36909 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2013 : 20:43:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Imperial, as in serving an empire. Not imperialistic, meaning conquering other territories as colonies. They may be arrogant, but that's a long way from being evil, or be slave-holders. There's no evidence in SJ, IIRC, that they have slaves. They're much more of the "officious do-gooder."
Indeed. In arcane space, the major slaving races are the neogi and the illithids. There were other groups, too, like the human slavers The Tenth Pit, but the neogi and the mind flayers were the major players in slavery.
Neogi society is built in large part upon slavery -- "own or be owned" is a major part of neogi philosophy.
I think the scro kept slaves, too, but they weren't as established as the previously mentioned races, and their slave practices (if any) were incidental to their military activities.
And of course the drow kept slaves, but they aren't a major spacefaring race. They have a serious dislike for neogi, though, considering the latter race's physical form to be an offense to Lolth.
The Elven Imperial Navy is like the stereotypical D&D paladin: they are righteous and chosen of the gods, so of course they need to be everyone's smotheringly helpful neighbor, whether it's wanted or not. Who wouldn't want the help of the elves and their superior knowledge and ability? They're very smart, so they know what's best for you. It's their duty to guide and assist wherever possible. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 20 Mar 2013 20:47:57 |
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Slaves of the Eldreth Veluuthra
