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blade020877
Seeker
Ireland
72 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Sep 2013 : 12:10:26
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First my background to understand why I could have to change gods.
I am a high level cleric of torm which was part of the purple dragons of cormyr (officer)
We play 3.5 rules but with 4th edition history. We played it that as huge magical battle and got caught in a status like form and 100 years passed.
Got back into purple dragons, tried to understand new cormyr as now an empire and conquerors.
Was on a mission to protect prince erzoured obarskyr (bad Guy)of the royal family to the dales (Dales are all independent, no sembia or shade so no one controls any of the dales)
As I was to project the prince erzoured I was with him when he had a meet with dales leaders he told the dales surrender a seat on the council or cormyr will not help them fight a giant army that in in the dales.
As a lawful good cleric of torm I wasn’t happy with this at all, some of the dales were allies of cormyr in the pass, my way of thinking is we should have helped full stop.
So I went to my commander and told him I am out of the purple dragons, he told me I am under arrest
But I left and I have been on the run.
After that the prince has told everybody I betrayed cormyr, all purple dragons are to kill me on sight
Plus my family was arrested, and then some one looking like me broke into the jail and killed 6 purple dragons and took my family. So I got the blame for that
I was in a town in the dales when I see a boy belong to my family and went to him (I know it was a trap but I had to help him) I found out he was poisoned. Then a group with close ties to the prince attacked me. I just about got away.
My first goal is to help get rid of the giants army in dales
So my long term plans are rebellion, propaganda, sabotage and all-out war with cormyr, clean out the evil in cormyr and return it to a good nation. Can’t go in to details of plans as other pc’s are reading this lol
My dm think I should change to hoar as god of vengeances but hoar is with bane now and that wouldn’t sit well with my pc, anybody got any idea of a god that would suite me, I am a good pc but know I have to get my hands dirty (not evil acts) if I am going up against very powerful nation
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2013 : 12:47:57
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If you had been a paladin i would have suggested a switch to Grey Guard but since you are a cleric this makes it more difficult.
Did he question his belief? Did he get any signs from Torm on what he needs to do? Usually Torm is about duty, that also means fullfilling it even if it means that some evil may be done, though not supporting outright tyranny.
If your cleric begins to question his faith and more and more walk the path of vengeance and revenge, then yes i would see him perhaps ending up as a follower of Hoar as i can clearly see him doing what it takes to get back at the prince. At some point you have to get your hands dirty and you can´t hope to not "stain" your honor and yes that means commiting evil acts. If your DM is smart, he will tempt you several times to do the "right" thing.
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The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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blade020877
Seeker
Ireland
72 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2013 : 13:27:02
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the prince got into the ear of the clerics of torm in cormyr and they have turned on me too.
so my belief is to purge cormyr of the evil and stop the plotting and scheming.
i would still like to stay on torm side but the dm thinks i would more suite hoar because of my tactics and plans. as i am lawful good hoar is a very risky one to take as i dont like to be in the same area as bane |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2013 : 13:38:52
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| See how your DM feels about you starting your own heresy - Thoarm, god of righteous vengeance and vindication. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4489 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2013 : 16:57:16
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Sounds like your Cleric might fit the bill to be come one of the Eyes of Justice. Here's an excerpt from the Dragon article:
"The Eye of Justice is a heretical, hypervigilant branch of those faithful to Torm, god of justice. Members of this group brutally root out what they perceive as “evil” in the world around them. Perhaps unsurprisingly in an order composed largely of former criminals, their methods are ruthless and extreme, and they go to any lengths to enforce their own brand of justice."
Even though they often operate out of the city of Westgate (not too far from the Dales and Cormyr) they easily got eyes and ears in many of the local areas. Could be that one of them heard your "fall" and want to investigate it further. They pull some resources and find out for themselves how far you've really fallen. Once they discover that you truely are righteous and still follow Torms path, they help you in some of your endeavors. Erik Scott deBie novels Downshadow and Shadowbane, Eye of Justice both follow a main hero (Shadowbane) and his efforts in dealing with the Eye of Justice. Let it be known, however, that the organization is (presently) corrupt and has issues of it's own though newer members might not be aware of the darker presence and still fight the righteous fight as it were. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator
E6 Options: Epic 6 Campaign |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2013 : 17:23:25
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4e is entirely outside my realm of knowledge, but I think I can still ask this question.
Do you legitimately know, in-game, that Hoar is associated with Bane? How? If it's hearsay, your lawful side should not believe it in the absence of compelling evidence. Even if you heard this from the clergy of Torm, there should be significant doubt in your mind as to its veracity. People --even priests of Torm-- are fallible and their knowledge/understanding of the loyalties of gods is nowhere near perfect. They can be wrong. Short of seeing clearly identifiable avatars of Hoar and Bane chumming over some ales in a tavern and plotting to take over the world, I (as an in-game cleric) wouldn't put much stock in such a strange tale.
I think some people (perhaps including the 4e designers) think that vengeance/revenge is evil because it involves harming people. As if harming things, regardless of provocation, is always evil. If that were the case, then all adventurers would be evil because they harm things all the time. There is such a thing as "overkill" but as long as you stop short of that vengeance is not evil.
In 3e, Hoar seemed to me to be more about "poetic justice" as opposed to the bitter, brooding, and potentially evil depths of revenge. Hoar doesn't favor harming innocents... only the guilty.
I disdain some DMs' tendency to dictate choices to the players. Your patron power should always be your choice. (However, if your alignment were dramatically altered, it might be a case where you just believe that you serve that power, while someone else is secretly granting your spells and gradually subverting you. That doesn't seem to be your situation, though.) That being said, Hoar doesn't have to be a bad choice.
All just my take on it. This is how I personally see it:
If your priority is to purge Cormyr of evil, without any regard at all for your own personal experience and the wrongs that have been done to you, then Torm might still be the appropriate choice because you're acting out of duty to Cormyr and the greater good, according to your definition of goodness. I don't even know which gods are still around, in 4e... the point is that you wouldn't want a deity of vengeance if vengeance is not your motive, and that should be made clear to your DM.
However, if your actions are aimed at getting rid of the people who wronged you... which is perfectly logical because that's the corruption you know about... then Hoar starts to sound appropriate, as I understand/define him. If your plan for cleansing Cormyr stops with removing those who have hurt you, then you can still be a great LG guy, but revenge is part (not all, but part) of your motive. There's nothing wrong with that. As long as you carefully target your attacks (physical or political), and you avoid any urges to harm innocents along the way, then Hoar works fine... as long as your DM interprets Hoar the same way. 
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Edited by - xaeyruudh on 27 Sep 2013 17:26:25 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1607 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2013 : 18:03:59
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quote:
Originally posted by blade020877
(...)
My first goal is to help get rid of the giants army in dales
So my long term plans are rebellion, propaganda, sabotage and all-out war with cormyr, clean out the evil in cormyr and return it to a good nation.
(...)
The question is: can a LG character act on a rebellion? And I understand the answer would be YES. In my pont of view, while a CG character would do those acts as an outlaw, attacking the government officials without necessarily thinking on changing the status quo, a LG would try a rebellion to change the laws or government heads towards good and justice, replacing or even getting rid of the corrupt or unjust officials. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4702 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2013 : 18:41:55
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blade I am starting to believe your DM is trying to railroad you. The "Plus my family was arrested, and then some one looking like me broke into the jail and killed 6 purple dragons and took my family" is what I mean. One person killing 6 purple guards at a prison is clearly a DM set up. Also the DM is the one that suggested you change religion.
Barastir, Lawful Good can act in rebellion against an Evil Entity, there is not conflict there. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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blade020877
Seeker
Ireland
72 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2013 : 20:02:40
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I was going to change to ng alignment to help with my plans of rebellion.
Dont get me wrong I am looking forward to the chance of playing it, the other pcs are purple dragons the will follow order to the letter and will try kill me on sight.
I don't think its railroading me at all its proves my point more that I need to stop the evil in cormyr. Ok its doesnt make things easier, but makes for a great game and role play.
I have quite a detailed plan to stop cormyr. I can't really go into here as pcs from my group are in here too lol
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1607 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2013 : 20:24:56
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| The point is that, if you are a faithful follower of Torm, you don't have to change alignment. And in 3e/3.5 you can still be a cleric of Torm if you are NG. And if those Purple Dragons are so obedient to kill you on sight, either they are easily fooled (all of them?) or they are all LN. Being good you can try to convince or avoid them to fight later. But yes, it seems your DM wants to "force" this change, in a way... |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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blade020877
Seeker
Ireland
72 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2013 : 20:59:14
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Yes all the group except me were ln or as I call them the mindless drones lol the reason I was going to change alignment was my propaganda tactics on getting the dales to turn against cormyr.
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 01:07:49
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Torm is still, absolutely, the most appropriate deity for you. You're still lawful good, you did not question your deity.
You might be in conflict with your realm (Cormyr), and you might politically be in conflict with members of your church. But that doesn't mean you've changed your allegiance to your principles or your faith in Torm. This actually sounds like a -perfect- situation for roleplaying your principles and your faith.
I wouldn't change either your alignment or your deity - unless you want to explore a personal character story of changed faith or changed principles. I'd just run with being truly faithful to Torm and the cause of promoting good nobility (which this prince, of course, isn't... he's a bad guy!).
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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portose_sharpe
Seeker
Ireland
74 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 17:11:54
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hello i am the dm, and the reason why i have pushed the change of god is because or some of the plans he wishes to act out, one such plan was to free 100+ prisoners and have them work for him. which i think a lawful good cleric of torm would not wish/want to do.
another of the plans was to bad mouth and disgrace the remaining PCs his friends, who are only doing their duty, again this was something i thought a lawful good cleric of Torm would not do,
as for the actions of the npc's i am not derailing him to do what i want, it was just how the nps's thought would be the best way to hurt/disgrace and get at blades pc.
and i only suggested hoar because of these actions.
and in our game the Torm dogma was changed slighty to help the pc better fit into the purple dragon game, i made it that when a cleric of torm joins the purple dragons, that his duty and loyalty was first to the purple dragons, then to torm dogma, so long as the pruple dragons didnt ask him to do anything that went against Torm.
hope it paints a bigger picture
:) |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 17:45:25
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| Prison break? You are right, no lawful good character would have hundreds of prisoners escape if they are not unjustly held. We can now argue if Cormyr is a "just" place and that no innocent are behind bars but let us assume all are guilty, that would mean he is freeing criminals and that alone should give him an alignment shift. Not speaking of the fallout that goes along the prison break with chances of innocent people dying, occurances of rape and theft, chaos until order can be restored. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
893 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 19:35:53
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I'm sorry i'll come off as a D-b*g but this kind of situations just bring my evil DM side out.
Even ignoring the plans portose_sharpe related to us, your character created a big mess out of some political intrigue he should have left alone.
As an officer of the Purple Dragons your loyalty was to the Crown of Cormyr, yet you resigned your job over some political threat to outlanders that may or may not have been concrete, showing that the trust the Crown had in you was misplaced.
As a cleric of Torm you abandoned your duty right in the middle of an assignment, if something happened to the evil prince or your ex-comrades-in-arms while in the Dales it would be on you, your honor and your integrity, showing you disregarded your duty as a bodyguard, as a Purple Dragon officer and as a comrade-in-arms.
As a lawful good cleric of Torm and Purple Dragon officer you resisted arrest and escaped law, you defected plain and simple.
Being lawful good means to endure justified punishment (you left the army in the middle of foreign ground that could very well turn hostile at the end of the political meetings).
I don't want to influence your DM, i hope me playing the evil DM on this boards makes you reconsider the whole situation and plan accordingly.
If you pulled this stunt with me as a DM you would be a NG cleric of Torm without spells/powers, with haunting nightmares and, after hearing about your family, with your conscience trying to eviscerate you with a rusty spoon.
Now i'll go lock the evil DM inside again, sorry for the intermission. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 20:37:11
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I'm operating within my understanding of Torm, which clearly differs from some others.
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Even ignoring the plans portose_sharpe related to us, your character created a big mess out of some political intrigue he should have left alone.
Adventurers rarely leave such things alone, and when they do the results often make them wish they hadn't walked away. I disagree that this situation should have been left alone; action of some sort was called for. If nothing else we could argue that the DM set him up to test his alignment and loyalties. Walking away would be a failure to support the tenets of Torm and the Purple Dragons (at least as the PC understood the Purple Dragons).
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
As an officer of the Purple Dragons your loyalty was to the Crown of Cormyr, yet you resigned your job over some political threat to outlanders that may or may not have been concrete, showing that the trust the Crown had in you was misplaced.
For a cleric (and for many others) duty to deity always trumps duty to a ruler. I get that Torm's expectations are tweaked somewhat for this game, but if Torm is still LG this doesn't actually change anything. The PC had to do something. Resigning wasn't cowardly or evil. It was a way to end the unjust assignment. I would expect a cleric of Torm given an evil assignment (furthering an evil mission, once you know its ends, is evil) to leave and seek out a higher ranking clergy member or the direct intervention of Torm. Resignation was perhaps not the most Lawful-Stupid option available, but I don't think Torm should ask his clerics to be stupid.
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
As a cleric of Torm you abandoned your duty right in the middle of an assignment, if something happened to the evil prince or your ex-comrades-in-arms while in the Dales it would be on you, your honor and your integrity, showing you disregarded your duty as a bodyguard, as a Purple Dragon officer and as a comrade-in-arms.
Defending a good person is a good act. Defending an evil person is therefore an evil act. If Torm expected his servants to defend evil, he would be LN; he could not be LG and justify the furtherance of evil acts. Tyranny is evil. Abandoning his job was not a betrayal of Torm; at the very most, he might spend a day in atonement averring his selfless loyalty to benevolent causes.
The question of whether it was a betrayal of the Purple Dragons or the crown of Cormyr depends on whether or not the Prince was acting under the crown's direct and specific orders or whether this was partly or wholly the Prince's personal agenda. If the Prince's actions were consistent with the desires of the crown, then the PC should be doing some more significant atonement for joining the Purple Dragons in the first place because they are now an evil organization by virtue of enforcing the will of an evil crown.
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
As a lawful good cleric of Torm and Purple Dragon officer you resisted arrest and escaped law, you defected plain and simple.
Yup. And in this situation defecting was the best thing to do.
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Being lawful good means to endure justified punishment (you left the army in the middle of foreign ground that could very well turn hostile at the end of the political meetings).
Being LG means furthering both law and good. Law is not good when it's used to subject people to an evil agenda.
His desertion of the army in the mostly disorganized Dales, with their lack of gigantic organized military forces, is of microscopic consequence. If the locals did turn hostile, his higher duty to Torm should compel him to side with the Dalesfolks against the imperialistic invaders. If he felt torn by dual loyalties, then he has more atoning to do but it shouldn't spell the end of Torm's interest in him.
Just playing Torm's advocate. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 20:58:56
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quote:
Originally posted by portose_sharpe
hello i am the dm
Hiya DM!
quote:
Originally posted by portose_sharpe
one such plan was to free 100+ prisoners and have them work for him. which i think a lawful good cleric of torm would not wish/want to do.
Drafting people to serve in a militia is anathema to me, personally, but I'm CN most of the time (CG on days when breakfast includes bacon).
Drafting is lawful, however, at least in some places, and it can't be called evil when the objective is to end evil. "Fight fire with fire" has always seemed weird to me, and fighting tyranny with tyranny feels similarly strange. I can understand interpreting this plan as LN rather than LG. I think Torm would have a problem with it (to the point of setting off a PC cleric's "spidey-sense") if the intended militiamen were civilians/commoners with little or no professional combat training, and/or the ends don't overwhelmingly serve their interest. Like... conscripting commoners from Impiltur to defend the Dales against a hostile takeover by Cormyr, for example, would be evil. Encouraging dalesfolks to stand up to the Purple Dragons and offering free training and magical support and recruitment of additional allies for that endeavor, in contrast, would be good.
quote:
Originally posted by portose_sharpe
another of the plans was to bad mouth and disgrace the remaining PCs his friends, who are only doing their duty, again this was something i thought a lawful good cleric of Torm would not do,
They seem to think their duty includes incarcerating him. Methinks they are no longer his friends. While it's not entirely LG to reply in kind, badmouthing someone who is trying to get you locked up so that you can be tortured and hang in chains until your flesh rots off your bones is not an evil act. Serving a government who engages in those practices is evil, and working against them is good.
quote:
Originally posted by portose_sharpe
as for the actions of the npc's i am not derailing him to do what i want, it was just how the nps's thought would be the best way to hurt/disgrace and get at blades pc.
No argument here, just a note that they are trying to hurt him. They are the world's crappiest friends. He is 100% justified in abandoning and working against them, and in resisting arrest with lethal force. He'd be a complete idiot if he failed to do so.
quote:
Originally posted by portose_sharpe
and i only suggested hoar because of these actions.
I don't have any issues with Hoar. Or with him continuing to be in Torm's favor.
quote:
Originally posted by portose_sharpe
and in our game the Torm dogma was changed slighty to help the pc better fit into the purple dragon game, i made it that when a cleric of torm joins the purple dragons, that his duty and loyalty was first to the purple dragons, then to torm dogma, so long as the pruple dragons didnt ask him to do anything that went against Torm.
I'm not trying to nitpick here, but the effect of this bolded part is that the PC's loyalty is first to Torm.
Just my opinions; it's your game. Hope it's fun for everyone! |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
893 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 22:12:53
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DISCLAIMER: Alright, i'll continue debating Torm's faith only until the Original Poster deems it worthy and not a big derailment. I'll debate it only to explore it more thoroughly and confront my ideas with those of others.
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
I'm operating within my understanding of Torm, which clearly differs from some others.
Same here and i could be utterly and entirely wrong so this seems a good places to clear things up and see if i misunderstood something.
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Adventurers rarely leave such things alone, and when they do the results often make them wish they hadn't walked away. I disagree that this situation should have been left alone; action of some sort was called for. If nothing else we could argue that the DM set him up to test his alignment and loyalties. Walking away would be a failure to support the tenets of Torm and the Purple Dragons (at least as the PC understood the Purple Dragons).
Adventurers, not Purple Dragons that swore an oath of service to the Crown, not dutybound lawful clerics of Torm. The player in question wasn't just a random do-gooder waltzing in a troubled situation, he had a military assignment, he had responsibilities and duties within his unit. IF (big if) this evil prince just did empty threats ("we won't help you" is kind of an empty threat, Dalefolks always cared for themeselves anyway both in 1370s and in 1470s) and wasn't threatening an invasion or immediate violence then it would've been way more appropriate to end his assignment (escorting the evil prince back in Cormyr) and then rising all hell with his superiors both in the army and in the church of Torm. It doesn't look like the prince's escort was enough of a relief army to have made a difference against this giant army anyway, any kind of help should have come from Cormyr proper, and armies move slowly so it's not like waiting would have changed things.
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
For a cleric (and for many others) duty to deity always trumps duty to a ruler. I get that Torm's expectations are tweaked somewhat for this game, but if Torm is still LG this doesn't actually change anything. The PC had to do something. Resigning wasn't cowardly or evil. It was a way to end the unjust assignment. I would expect a cleric of Torm given an evil assignment (furthering an evil mission, once you know its ends, is evil) to leave and seek out a higher ranking clergy member or the direct intervention of Torm. Resignation was perhaps not the most Lawful-Stupid option available, but I don't think Torm should ask his clerics to be stupid.
Except that Torm IS the god of duty, and not fulfilling your duty properly is a sin amongs Tormtars (i think this is the name for the clergy), the player was dutybound to follow the orders of his superiors and as far as things have been explained here it's not like the evil prince wanted his soldiers to slaughter Dalefolks or help the giants or sacrifice virgins or something.
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Defending a good person is a good act. Defending an evil person is therefore an evil act. If Torm expected his servants to defend evil, he would be LN; he could not be LG and justify the furtherance of evil acts. Tyranny is evil. Abandoning his job was not a betrayal of Torm; at the very most, he might spend a day in atonement averring his selfless loyalty to benevolent causes.
Yeah that's why Tormtars lead peasant revolts and they have the highest score in witch burnings on stakes and random assaults in cities ... oh wait ...
Exactly what kind of evil would have he furthered by going back to Cormyr with the prince and then raising the problem by speaking personally with his superiors both in the army and among the church? Maybe using the time to explain things to the rest of the party instead of abandoning duty in the middle of an assignment and then resisting arrest and fleeing. That's what neutrals and chaotic characters do, feeling they're above the law, a tru lawful character should never place himself in a situation were breaking the law is the only way out.
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
The question of whether it was a betrayal of the Purple Dragons or the crown of Cormyr depends on whether or not the Prince was acting under the crown's direct and specific orders or whether this was partly or wholly the Prince's personal agenda. If the Prince's actions were consistent with the desires of the crown, then the PC should be doing some more significant atonement for joining the Purple Dragons in the first place because they are now an evil organization by virtue of enforcing the will of an evil crown.
There is no question, it was betrayal of your oath of service. It's how monarchies work, how armies work and the character betrayed both oath of service, possibly jeopardizing his comrades position, ending up fighting against them and other Purple Dragons to escape law, just law, rightful punishment for a deserter.
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Yup. And in this situation defecting was the best thing to do.
Not in a Tormtar's book (by my interpretation of Torm's dogma, please help me understand things better): the character has broken two oaths of service, resisted a just arrest, deserted and escaped rightful punishment ... this sounds like the best thing to do for a follower of the god of duty? Keep in mind duty is not just a word for followers of the Just God, it's the most important concept of your whole life. And all this is ignoring the fact the character put his family in harms way to save his skin ...
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Being LG means furthering both law and good. Law is not good when it's used to subject people to an evil agenda.
What evil agenda? Is the prince leading the giant army? Is he working with them? Did he order raids on the Dales? Murders? Arsons? Acts of sabotage against the Dales defenders? Or did he just made empty threats that probably meant nothing to the Dalesfolk since they always endured without Cormyr's help?
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
His desertion of the army in the mostly disorganized Dales, with their lack of gigantic organized military forces, is of microscopic consequence. If the locals did turn hostile, his higher duty to Torm should compel him to side with the Dalesfolks against the imperialistic invaders. If he felt torn by dual loyalties, then he has more atoning to do but it shouldn't spell the end of Torm's interest in him.
The lack of a Dales' army isn't enough to justify abandoning your duty: Dalesfolk have a good record of winning against invading more organized forces so all it took them was a good placed ambush, no need to move an army against Cormyr.
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Just playing Torm's advocate.
I can't stress enough that Torm is very different from other good gods, a follower of Ilmater, Selune, Lathander or any other good aligned deity would have probably no problem with the charater action (or just some minor afterthought), but for a Tormtar the character has gone way too much against his duties, oaths and responsabilities to keep recieving spells/powers without some serious atonement and personal sacrifice.
Just like a cleric of Oghma would try anything before burning a book or a cleric of Sune before tearing down a wonderfull work of art, so a follower of Torm would give all he's got to keep his oaths and fulfill his duties when there is no harm going innocent people's way through those oaths and duties. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4702 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 22:28:45
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Well we have heard both sides of the issue, or at least parts of them.
Things that concerned me is the PCs vs. PC problem that has been setup.
I am also concerned about an NPC that looks like the PC, kidnapped the PC's family, incidentally killing a few people in the false rescue.
Duty first to deity, clearly duty to crown does come second. Asking for a seat on Dales council clearly does not strike me as Evil. That is a treaty negotiation. If you want aid I want a voice as to policy. That is not an Evil request. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 23:01:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Adventurers, not Purple Dragons that swore an oath of service to the Crown, not dutybound lawful clerics of Torm.
All fair points, and I can mostly agree. I think the fact that the PC is a PC trumps the church's expectations of NPC clerics. There has to be an understanding on the DM's part which make the "rules" different for PCs because otherwise the PC is busy with church-related chores and tasks on an ongoing basis and that makes him an NPC. But ultimately this is a minor quibble.
Where I think we differ significantly is on the nature and expectations of Torm. I'm of the opinion that Torm is LG and the goodness of a deed or task matters at least as much as its lawfulness. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but it seems like you're emphasizing the L over the G... like a cleric of Torm must serve the law regardless of its morality, and follow orders regardless of their consequences. If this is true then Torm is Helm.
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 23:28:21
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yeah but one would not go and demand they surrender a spot on their council to do so.
they would simply go and ask for one
if it was demanded of course and by the way, only tyrants deal with absolutes.
the way I see it the prince was likely the one who had his family jailed, and then had them abducted and also told the clergy that the cleric pc said all hail Bane and Bhaal is going to come back and get you and other blasphemies .
duty huh......
here is the thing with Torm
he is duty, loyalty, obedience, and law.
it is the job of all soldiers to carry out their orders and obey their superiors.
it is the responsibility of all soldiers to question those orders.
so who's duty is he accused of deserting?
if he is siding with the dales and that was the plan to secure a treaty than not only did he have a duty to the crown but to the people of the dales too.
LAwful, if said cleric of torm had a problem with the evil prince's way of handling than he was still well within Torm's tenants in deserting the prince.
as for the loyalty part, then any cleric will tell you that its to the deity first and the crown second.
a cleric would actually aid the people as helping them might make future converts later.
the worst I can see is the talking bad about his former fellows and former friends might be the only questionable thing he did and that falls under loyalty, but if they acted agaisnt first than they dropped their loyalty to you and you would be right in giving them an off they cant refuse.
truth hurts and it can cut wounds deeper than any weapon.
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why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 23:39:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Things that concerned me is the PCs vs. PC problem that has been setup.
I am also concerned about an NPC that looks like the PC, kidnapped the PC's family, incidentally killing a few people in the false rescue.
Duty first to deity, clearly duty to crown does come second. Asking for a seat on Dales council clearly does not strike me as Evil. That is a treaty negotiation. If you want aid I want a voice as to policy. That is not an Evil request.
I'm totally with you until the last part. Or rather, I'm with you except that I think it's not just asking for a seat on the Dales Council. The hostile army in the Dales raises the stakes and makes it wholly evil.
"I might consider helping you... at a cost. The cost for my consideration is your independence. Unless you give me what I want, I will stand back and let invaders slaughter your children. I will fortify my own borders and watch you die, unless you give me a voice in controlling your future. If you give me a seat on the Dales Council, fully equal to any single Dale, then I'll consider helping you. No promises." And, as already pointed out, the force the prince brought with him is just a bodyguard... an actual army will take time to muster and get into position. Time which the Dales really doesn't have. Cormyr, in this situation, clearly has no intention of providing meaningful assistance. The price must be paid immediately, and regardless of whether Cormyr comes to the rescue or not. The assistance, if it ever comes, will be later.
It also puts the Dales in a tough position, which is part of the point of doing it. If the invading army is ultimately too much for the Dales to handle on their own, then the man who turns Cormyr's assistance away will be the final nail in the coffin of the Dalesfolk. And of course word will spread... within a day or two of this negotiation every man, woman, and child in the Dales will know about Cormyr's offer and whether it was accepted or rebuffed.
Once Cormyr has a seat on the Council, they will have a foothold from which the Dales will never recover. Cormyr is not necessarily saying "the Purple Dragons will assist you against every foe henceforth, in exchange for a seat on the Council." The seat is permanent, the aid is not.
The next time there's a threat to the Dales, Cormyr can very easily say "give us another seat, and we'll think about it."
If someone is bullying you, and I have knowledge of it and the ability to stop it, and I look you in the eye and say "I'll think about helping you, just this once, in exchange for complete control over your and your descendants' actions every Tuesday, forever." I would think you would balk, and you should regard me as closer to the black end of the good vs evil spectrum.
This might be standard operating procedure for Cormyr in the 4e era, and undoubtedly other monarchies too, but the frequency and the ease with which it's done doesn't stop it from being callous, manipulative, imperialistic, and evil.
And I've been yappin my head off in this thread. I will make another attempt to shut my trap. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2013 : 01:41:04
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Seems like there's quite a bit to the story, on both sides, that make this a tough judgement call. Apparently there is a "giant army" threatening the Dales, and that's obviously not good. At the same time, while the Prince may be evil, I'm not convinced that what he's asking for (a council seat in return for military aid) is actually evil with a capital E. It's certainly manipulative, nasty politics, and "quid pro quo" of course, but foreign governments -always- want something in return for military aid. Now, if the Prince is behind the "giant army" also, and using it to apply pressure in this political situation, then certainly that would be evil. Did the priest have evidence of that?
At the same time, nothing I've heard so far convinces me that anyone on the Dales Council would actually agree to this. The Dales have worried about infiltration on all sides, Cormyr included ever since they absorbed Tilverton. Leaving aside the fact that the Dales Council actually involves no real power, other than helping hammer out inter-Dale contracts for trade and issues of mutual defense, the Prince just really isn't bringing enough to the table for them to consider his admission to the Council.
Unless in the past 100 years the Dales Council has significantly changed and has become a true governing body, the Prince actually isn't getting anything of power-value for the lives he would commit to defending the Dales. It just doesn't make sense... so I'm guessing there's more to the story. My instinct would say that the Dalesmen would laugh at the idea, and totally reject him. Not only would mustering Cormyrean troops take too long to get there in time, the Dalesmen would not want any outsider to even have the appearance of power.
About the Tormite priest, I don't know all of his plans or everything that's happened. But freeing a bunch of legally incarcerated prisoners and leading them (probably when many of those prisoners are thieves, degenerates, or even murderers) certainly isn't a "good act" - unless he knows for a fact that these prisoners have been falsely accused and wrongfully imprisoned. Going "rogue" as an officer would be "okay" with Torm -if- the priest was ordered to do evil things. Disagreeing with orders for purely political reasons isn't enough. On the other hand, if he -was- asked to do something legitimately evil, then he absolutely should have abandoned his post and sat for a day or two in prayer to Torm to explain his decisions.
This is complicated by what the DM has said: in their game, specifically the priest took an oath to the Crown and -must- treat it as higher than the oaths to his God. This wouldn't work in my game, but this is what the priest agreed to, apparently. Why -any- priest would agree to that seems unfathomable, but I guess it's a house rule. If the priest had grown up in this new time period, then that's apparently their code. Importantly, however, this priest has noted that their adventuring group actually comes from an earlier era (3.5E) when times were different - and Torm's dogma was also quite a bit different than how you've described it here in your 4E game. So this priest may be operating on "Torm's old moral rules" about duty and obedience from the Torm he knows. And the earlier Torm would say that goodness trumps duty and obedience when lives are in question. Torm's new rules, and the oaths of Cormyr, may indeed be different on some fundamental dogmatic level that hasn't been mentioned.
So I'd say that because of the players having been in stasis for ~100 years, and because this isn't exactly the Cormyr that they knew, and maybe the DM has changed Torm's dogma somewhat, the whole thing is a big tangled mess. But that is part of the fun of roleplaying, isn't it?
One thing I would like to mention is that it's weird and difficult when one player in a group decides to go rogue on the others. It undermines the nature of group play. So while his going rogue may make sense in terms of the player's personal moral outlook, it tends to be a little divisive in game-play. The Cormyrean Prince is definitely being manupulative, underhanded, and political, but I'm not convinced that his actions or goals are evil. If he's secretly funding and controlling the "giant army" invading the Dales, then sure, that's evil. What evidence did the priest have of evil actions by the Prince, other than that "he didn't like the idea" of pressuring the Dalesmen?
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 30 Sep 2013 01:58:36 |
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blade020877
Seeker
Ireland
72 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2013 : 03:39:16
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i only read a lil bit of posts... so bare with me. first dm tell all my plans. not a prisoner break, i was going to sembia to ask for prisoner to help stop cormyr taking an other country to there empire. my rules to this i take no evil people and attone for crimes with services to me. to stop them doing crimes if they left with me was quest or something like it. my other plan was propaganda against purple dragons so the dales people dont want them there.
remember torms dogma is plain and simple "Stand ever alert against corruption. Strike quickly and forcefully against rot in the hearts of mortals."
i seen the rot and acted
why i left the group is cos, if there was a rotting element to the crown they still would have followed blindly. (i was the only good purple dragon in the group) |
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blade020877
Seeker
Ireland
72 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2013 : 05:54:14
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Ok I read it all now... thanks for all the replies good and bad lol, as this topic has gone quite in depth best explain pc and history to this point.
To give you and picture of my character I sooner help the poor on the street then the high nobles or royalty.
It games where we had to recues people, as others were fighting bad guys I was rush to prisoners to get them out as quick as possible.
when some of us were been promoted, we were asked questions first, if we were on a mission and orders were not to come in contact with anybody on till we get to post, but on the way we seen people been attacked by bandits. But I keep going out of sight or stop and help?? I knew my answer but knew I wasn’t going to get promoted over it. “I help”
A time we many purple dragons were been control for an evil powerful demon.
Was order to stop them at all cost but I subdual every one of them I came across.
So to give you an ill idea what my pc is about....
So from the start..... The group first encounts with the prince wasn’t on the best of terms. Nothing evil just him been a prick. As I am an inquisitor too as cleric I did an ill bit of info gathering and heard rumour of shady dealing he has had.
My first thoughts of problem with the beliefs of purple dragons when was fighting frosts giants in there caves and came across slaves from cormyr and dales but order to leave them. This did not sit well with me.
We were put in change to escort him and his group to the dales. We were ambushed couple of times but got the prince there. But as we looked in the attack it looked like there could have been a setup up against a powerful noble with us but was friends with the prince. Didn’t find anything so had to go on our way.
Got to meeting and stood on guard there as prince talked to dales council.
The sentence that made me leave was “surrender a seat to cormyr then we will help”
To all that said I was wrong read carefully
First
My duty is to good ruler that will help stop evil and not for a price..... At that point my duty turn to torm himself “Strike quickly and forcefully against rot in the hearts of mortals” Your fourfold duties are to faith, family, masters, and all good beings of Faerûn.
My Loyalty is to torm and good beings of faerun““stand ever alert against corruption. I have to do right by them.
So anyway
When the meeting was over and escorted the prince to his room. After that I went to my commander’s room and told him I am leaving the purple dragons. He told me I was under arrest. But I left anyway. After a while the commander info the the group I was to be arrested on sight. I went back to say good bye to my friends but they tried to arrest me. So I when on the run with plans of getting help to start up my own war with the frost giant army and get cormyr out of the dales. If I can show the dales that they don’t need to give up a seat to get help.
The other part was propaganda; I don’t think I was pointing out the group I was in but at purple dragons.
Make them look like the bad guy. Tell dales folk that purple dragons left dales slaves behind in cave to die by frost giants hands (which is true) and stuff like that.
Using sembia, telling them cormyr in the dales and getting stronger and a big foot hold. So I can’t see why you wouldn’t want me to stop that (FYI long term play is to use this against sembia later as there under shade rule have a big long complex plan if cormyr don’t get the message lol)
I was going to ask sembia for prisoner that want to joint up (like in the U.S. jail or join the army) but I pick no evil, neutral or good. Then when they join have a ques or spell to stop them breaking my order (no robbing no raping no murdering etc) and if they want out back to sembia jail...... no prison break out you mad lot of hippie’s lol
Next for my propaganda I was going to dress men up as purple dragon and others commoners, farmers etc
The fake commoners would go in to big town ands and be bullied and stuff taken on them by faked purple dragons. I use their own tactics back at them, they frame me for murder I frame them for bastards lol
I went with a gut feeling and so far it’s been right. Poison a child, murder purple dragons, kidnap my family and framed me for it all.......... the cheek of some of you saying I did the wrong thing#61514;. The bigger man stand up for the lil man that can’t stand up for himself
I agree with a lot of you, I have to get something that ties the prince in with this.
I can’t really go in to much more as other pc’s of the group read this,
But my first mission is get help, manpower and funds so I can stop the giant army in the dales and show cormyr wasnt needed
And just the last thing... a note to evil dms, we get together to have fun a laugh and stress our self out but at the end of the day it’s about to look forward to the next game |
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portose_sharpe
Seeker
Ireland
74 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2013 : 10:33:16
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hello all thanks for the posts some great reads.
just on a side note, no one knows if indeed the prince is evil, as far as the pcs know/seen the prince has being a dick but nothing evil. and if was never found out if indeed this was all a buff check by the prince to see what he could and, and maybe cormyr was going to help either way.
and to answer another question, in our game the Dales Council Holds real power within the dales, 7 dales seat on the council which can change with some voted out and new ones voted in, only one from any given dale doh. which with cormyr's deal the 7th seat would go to cormyr and the dales down to 6 seats.
ps i like u evil DM :) lol |
Edited by - portose_sharpe on 30 Sep 2013 10:41:07 |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
893 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2013 : 10:36:52
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quote:
Originally posted by blade020877
And just the last thing... a note to evil dms, we get together to have fun a laugh and stress our self out but at the end of the day it’s about to look forward to the next game
Nothing against you blade020877 but i felt there was too much patting on backs in this thread and i wanted to show that there is indeed a problem with your church's dogma in your actions, the last word is for you and your DM, you need to come up with something that's good for the campaign and good for both of you.
Eh ... alright folks, everything is fine, i caged him again, the evil DM just screamed something against the other players that i can translate to:
Uh ... guys? You reading? Anyone of you wants to chime in and say something? Because right now in all this big messy affair (undoubtely fun from a RP point of view) you other party members come off as d-b*gs, i mean your comrade saved your skin how many times? How many times did he prove himself as a good guy doing the right thing during your service together in the Purple Dragons? And you repay him with arrest on sight? Not even an explanation? Not even "alright you're with us now, we take your custody and let's go together higher up through the ranks because something is fishy"? I mean you got ambushed twice already, the diplomatic escort can't cage the whole group and make the trip back safely so that was a good bet, yeah, maybe forcing it a bit against the lawful side but, as this whole debate shows, PCs are more than their stated alignment.
Anyway, i'll stop accusing random people of random things and leave for now by saying that in a situation like this one, as a DM, i'll send in the War Wizards and Highknights to clean up the mess: they probably know the prince is evil, they probably know the party members are war heroes or something, they answer only to the king and they can do whatever pleases them like a good secret police. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
893 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2013 : 10:53:21
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One more thing (since i'm really coming off as a bad and evil person):
In the last D&D Movie (yeah i know ...) the hero is a paladin that breaks all his oaths, teams up with a bunch of really Evil guys killing, maiming, destroying and looting on a quest to retrieve the Book of Vile Darkness (i think, going from memory) for some kind of Evil mastermind ultra boss, all this to save his father. In the end, since he's doing it for the greater good (preventing the Evil ritual that involved his father sacrifice i think) his god let's him wield the Uber Powerful Holy Sword of Kick Ass and they win.
What does this have to do with the case at hand? Even in this big mess maybe your lawful good cleric of Torm "spider senses" tingled and you are really working against the greater evil and in the end you'll do the right thing and save the day (and Cormyr and the Dales). For now we don't know, you took the risk and as a DM this is something i can respect in a player and this is something worth even some (or many) course corrections in the campaign, to let it play out well for everyone. |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2013 : 12:47:20
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Portose, think about getting some assassins on the fugitive. He knows of the Dales talk with Cormyr, he is a diplomatic risk, a risk that needs to be silenced.
I do get the impression blade from what you wrote, that you play your cleric a bit like a paladin. If that is your style, sure, but i have to say, it is extremely blue eyed to think you just get "good" guys out of a prison. Sembia, should they be willing to help, will play by their own rules and you will be nothing but a pawn for them. You may tell them that Cormyr wants to extend influence in the Dales, ok. What then? What do you offer Sembia aside from that? A single information will not have them go in "we must aid him" mode. If they allow you to get prisoners, they will ask for compensation, do you have the means to answer the demand in a way that pleases them? Ask yourself those questions and come to your own conclusion.
Furthermore putting people under a geas is not a good act, it is neutral at best because you impose something on a sentient being which it would perhaps normally not do. You will have to get your hands dirty, there is no way around it.
Demzer, while i consider The Book of Vile Darkness the best of the three movies, i have to say how it ended was cliche. Good triumphing over evil against all odds, fine if people fancy it (i find it tiring), but if we apply it on this situation it means that the cleric will have to go through hardship that may border questioning his believe and the temptations, the lure of "evil" everpresent should weigh on his mind. This situation is "world politics" and not questing for fair maidens against vile beasts that are slain and a merry time to be had by all. The DM should adapt to what the players do and keep the world in mind. If they mess things up, they have to suffer the consequences and not the DM saving their hides for their own stupidity.
Yes i can be a mean one
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The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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drabin pheonix
Acolyte
Ireland
9 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2013 : 17:50:32
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hi all,
I am one of the other pc's in this game. I have read all the posts and am going to give you my view on the events since a few people have wondered why the other pcs are quite. Firstly another gamer has put this post up to get outsiders opinions ( he already knows my opinion ) and secondly this is a discussion with my DM and a fellow pc, I find if everyone at the table stays involved after they have already shared their view it only gets bogged down and the game stops moving forward .
But now that people are asking for another pc to add to me mix I will gladly oblige ;-).
My character is a 10th lvl fighter 10th lvl kensai LN who's oath is to the current king. I am Cormyr all the way so with cormyr expanding in 4th edition my character fully supports it. Me the cleric and another pc paladin were all in the Havoc company a elite group of purple dragons, which were wiped out except for us three. So our characters were very loyal to one another, and this was how we were playing for the most part.
know blade mentions the slave in the cave, this is how I viewed that encounter; a very small group of us were there to kill a giant lord who's army was in a battle at the time with our commanders army, the battlemasters army was out numbered ( this wasn't expected at the time) because of this we were on a time table and we lost a lot of time trying find are way through the caverns and tunnels, at one time (several hours in game time because we were lost ;-)) we came across slave mining under guard, we killed the gruads and told the slaves the directions to get get out, we decided we couldn't afford the time to lead them out because more of our brothers in the battle would be killed if we had futher delays with our mission. The cleric didn't agree but was out ranked, to me the mission came first especially with my comrades in danger.
Now the decussions about the prince, we all now the type of person he is but he is still royalty and it is our duty to obey( unless its outright evil, I maybe LN but I do have honour) even when we all have our doubts about him. From what I have read many of the posts mention that we other pcs are yes men ( can't copy and post on this dam phone) or something along those line. The fact is we all had run ins with him, one of mine was when he had his lackies start to order around the purple dragons when we were traveling to the Dales. I confronted the prince informing that it broke protacal and hinders our job in protecting him, this lead to one of his regular sparing exabitions with other pc officers which he found amusing ( Muppet).
All that aside when it came to the council meeting I viewed it as politication s doing their part i.e talking shite and my character wasn't concerned about the word fencing taking place , but when the cleric reacted the way he did we were all in shock. We just could not comprehend that he would abandon his oath and his friends because of the words used by the prince. In my characters eyes he betrayed us and the king( forgot to mention I also follow torm ). After what he done when he resisted arrest and attacked our paladin and other purple dragons my character would attack him without hesitation now that a order from the king has tolds us too, especially now that he was framed in murder aswell.
sorry about the grammer am using one finger o. A phone and this has takin me a long long time to type.
p.s really insightful opinions on this subject cheers.
especially evil Dm :-)
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blade020877
Seeker
Ireland
72 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2013 : 17:59:00
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quote:
Nothing against you blade020877 but i felt there was too much patting on backs in this thread and i wanted to show that there is indeed a problem with your church's dogma in your actions, the last word is for you and your DM, you need to come up with something that's good for the campaign and good for both of you.
demzer i know you have nothing against me just your Opinion, i was trying to be sarastic lol, I replied to the post quite late so was sleepy and in a sarcastic mood which really is all the time, portose can back that one up lol I think it’s good to have both side of the argument in any forum post but see which majority vote which can help a game is.
Ok update on way my pc is thinking of doing. If you think good or bad are ok but remember I haven’t done anything yet
First
Staying with torm but changing alignment to ng
So not lawful anymore
I have got some help from lawful good people
And in the middle of getting another group base in the dales to play.
(Can’t say who as there are spies in here lol)
They will help with frost giant army but not cormyr till I get proof of corruption
So that will be on going task.
Can’t remember but someone asked why would sembia help?? In our game there is no sembia in the dales only cormyr at the moment, so to see cormyr border expand in to dales and maybe push more on to sembia borders would be a problem for them.
The best example of this is the U.S. helping the Mujahedeen; they just wanted to stop the Russians getting a foot hold in Middle East.
But that’s want I think.
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who do i change to or do i???
